Author Topic: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product  (Read 8933 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« on: May 29, 2017, 08:06:16 am »
What does the CE mark on a product actually mean?
How do you get one?
What is it NOT?
What is a Declaration Of Conformity?
There might more to this mark than you realised!

The FCC mark is also discussed.


 
The following users thanked this post: SeanB, joeqsmith

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2017, 09:26:10 am »
Im still waiting for a "battery safety" making. Some people are placing Li-ion batteries peaty much in their ears, on their faces, in their pockets (next to their reproduction parts), various holes in their bodies (e-cigarettes. Why, what did you think about?). Nobody ever asks the question, if it is safe or not.
Samsung had the huge fiasco recently. I've recently witnessed someone phone die. He bumped into a traffic pole, walking, phone was in the way. No damage on the outside. Battery heats itself up (hey, at least no fire, right?) and it never charges again. There are various reports of people getting 3rd degree burns because of the batteries fires.
So when are getting regulations and proper testing for this?
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2017, 02:15:06 pm »
Looking forward to watching this one.  Just the fact you attempted to tackle it, you get my  :-+ 

I watched it and it was a good toe dip.  There was a hint you may take the plunge and dive in.   Looking forward to it.   
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 02:45:55 pm by joeqsmith »
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2017, 02:54:42 pm »
Im still waiting for a "battery safety" making. Some people are placing Li-ion batteries peaty much in their ears, on their faces, in their pockets (next to their reproduction parts), various holes in their bodies (e-cigarettes. Why, what did you think about?). Nobody ever asks the question, if it is safe or not.
So when are getting regulations and proper testing for this?
These have been established a long time ago: UN38.3. If a Li-ion battery pack doesn't have this approval (which requires actual testing) it won't be transported.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 02:58:45 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2017, 03:21:10 pm »
Im still waiting for a "battery safety" making. Some people are placing Li-ion batteries peaty much in their ears, on their faces, in their pockets (next to their reproduction parts), various holes in their bodies (e-cigarettes. Why, what did you think about?). Nobody ever asks the question, if it is safe or not.
So when are getting regulations and proper testing for this?
These have been established a long time ago: UN38.3. If a Li-ion battery pack doesn't have this approval (which requires actual testing) it won't be transported.
I'm aware of this. I actually had to ship Li-Ion cells (big ones, ~50Ah) overseas. It had to be done in some cancer inducing crap, self extinguishing.
UN38.3 does not answer to Li-Ion battery problems built into consumer devices. Anyway, this is off topic.
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2017, 03:21:30 pm »
Im still waiting for a "battery safety" making. Some people are placing Li-ion batteries peaty much in their ears, on their faces, in their pockets (next to their reproduction parts), various holes in their bodies (e-cigarettes. Why, what did you think about?). Nobody ever asks the question, if it is safe or not.
So when are getting regulations and proper testing for this?
These have been established a long time ago: UN38.3. If a Li-ion battery pack doesn't have this approval (which requires actual testing) it won't be transported.
like cheap hoverboard's from China:o Like to see Dave do a teardown on one.  :popcorn: keep fire extinguisher handy.  :phew:
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Offline mdszy

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2017, 03:42:37 pm »
Im still waiting for a "battery safety" making. Some people are placing Li-ion batteries peaty much in their ears, on their faces, in their pockets (next to their reproduction parts), various holes in their bodies (e-cigarettes. Why, what did you think about?). Nobody ever asks the question, if it is safe or not.
So when are getting regulations and proper testing for this?
These have been established a long time ago: UN38.3. If a Li-ion battery pack doesn't have this approval (which requires actual testing) it won't be transported.
like cheap hoverboard's from China:o Like to see Dave do a teardown on one.  :popcorn: keep fire extinguisher handy.  :phew:

My university actually banned those (in the residence halls, you could still ride them around on campus) because of the fire hazard issues!
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Offline elmo

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2017, 06:25:42 pm »
A way to comply without actually test the device or machine is to use the IEC norms. e.g. you would use IEC 60204 for the design of the electrical systems on a machine. By doing that you have chosen a recognized method to address (some of) the relevant requirements of the machine directive. Of course a directive may require you to follow a whole series of different norms to address all the requirements.
This may not be as easy in regards to PCB design, I wouldn't know that. But in regard to machines assembled from off the shelf components this is a perfectly good way to do it, as long as the components them self is in compliance (and so on).
 

Offline vlad777

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2017, 08:12:39 pm »
Mind over matter. Pain over mind. Boss over pain.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2017, 08:46:53 pm »
Im still waiting for a "battery safety" making. Some people are placing Li-ion batteries peaty much in their ears, on their faces, in their pockets (next to their reproduction parts), various holes in their bodies (e-cigarettes. Why, what did you think about?). Nobody ever asks the question, if it is safe or not.
So when are getting regulations and proper testing for this?
These have been established a long time ago: UN38.3. If a Li-ion battery pack doesn't have this approval (which requires actual testing) it won't be transported.
I'm aware of this. I actually had to ship Li-Ion cells (big ones, ~50Ah) overseas. It had to be done in some cancer inducing crap, self extinguishing.
UN38.3 does not answer to Li-Ion battery problems built into consumer devices.
Well, it should be but like any marking which is based on a small batch of samples it is not a safeguard against poor quality control.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Wim_L

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2017, 09:06:42 pm »
It's not always as simple though. For some products (and this certainly applies to most consumer electronics) the manufacturer can self-certify. Mind you, the manufacturer isn't always the one who manufactures it. If the real manufacturer is outside the EU, and has no legal presence there (not all that uncommon), the importer gets redefined as manufacturer (and assumes legal responsibility).

For some other things, independent certification by so-called notified bodies is needed. This is mostly for high-risk items, such as explosives, but some electronics are included too (e.g. fire alarms, medical devices). In that case, the CE mark will include a number to identify the notified body.
 

Offline STMartin

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2017, 03:14:05 am »
I work at UL; really looking forward to what Dave has to say!
 

Offline Paul Moir

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2017, 05:40:25 am »
The problem with pictograms is that they're cultural.  Like the tortoise and hare diagram representing slow or fast presumes you know Aesop.  Where I live, we don't use "wheely bins" for garbage but rather exclusively for compost.  So the WEEE symbol locally translates to "Don't put this in your composter." 
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2017, 02:31:50 pm »
The problem with pictograms is that they're cultural.  Like the tortoise and hare diagram representing slow or fast presumes you know Aesop.  Where I live, we don't use "wheely bins" for garbage but rather exclusively for compost.  So the WEEE symbol locally translates to "Don't put this in your composter." 

The problem with pictograms, is way Too many of them nowadays,  :-// and then add in advertising logos.  >:D
you have a bewildering alphabet soup, that no one has the time to google all the definitions.  :palm:
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Offline prof

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2017, 08:03:38 pm »
China Export is a semi-myth. Anything sold inside the EU must show the real CE sign, otherwise if customs stumbles about it, it will be destroyed without further discussion and independent of whether the device has a conformity declaration or not. If the manufacturer is outside of the EU it is actually the duty of the importer/distributor to make sure the conformity declaration exists and the product is properly labelled. Now the importer/distributor would be pretty stupid to accept a shipment of a mislabelled product so it's rather unlikely what Dave said in the video about people putting the wrong logo on it by accident...

But: The EU fumbled and did not properly protect the CE logo which means anyone can legally use their own variation of it to fool customers, often implying the product has a conformity declaration even though it doesn't actually need it or for counterfeit products imported by customers themselves or coming through shady side channels like Amazon warehouses, passing by customs just by dumb luck.

I'd really love to see a genuine product which needs a confirmity declaration, actually has one but the manufacturer got the logo wrong... So far I haven't...
 

Offline prof

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2017, 08:12:03 pm »
Where I live, we don't use "wheely bins" for garbage but rather exclusively for compost.  So the WEEE symbol locally translates to "Don't put this in your composter." 

I challenge you to design a universally understood logo saying: "Don't throw in your regular trash".
 

Offline MacMeter

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2017, 02:18:00 am »
For safety and accountability, independent testing is needed. But, as some others have noted, all the logos on products do lead to more confusion. The larger problem I see these days, is some manufacturers not bothering, saving money, and simply counterfeiting both logos, and labels. So while as a consumer, you may be led to believe any one of the logo/labels makes the product better/safer, the counterfeit ones begin to erode that confidence.
 

Offline STMartin

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2017, 03:14:16 am »
I'd really love to see a genuine product which needs a confirmity declaration, actually has one but the manufacturer got the logo wrong... So far I haven't...

All of my HP/Agilent equipment has the "wrong" logo. The image has two 3610s, a 3620, and a 34401.

The other image is a BK 8500, whose CE logo seems somewhere in the middle, and a Rigol DG1022 which seems to have the "proper" logo.

Even among genuine products, as Dave would say, it's all over the shop.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 03:19:19 am by STMartin »
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2017, 03:30:01 am »
I always thought CE meant Cheap Export

meaning to 'take it apart' and make sure it's safe, before switching it on.

If it's a real  :palm: :palm: posjob, get a refund asap.

So far so good, CE works for me  ;D
 

Offline sleemanj

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2017, 03:36:48 am »
I'd really love to see a genuine product which needs a confirmity declaration, actually has one but the manufacturer got the logo wrong... So far I haven't...

Left, an HP power supply, right a Toshiba hard drive, both just the first things to hand, the red overlay is the official logo scaled to match the C in each ( https://ec.europa.eu/growth/sites/growth/files/ce-mark.png ), this is not a camera trick, in real life it's obvious that the two devices have different spacing.

So yeah, depending on how close you want it, there's plenty of variation.




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Offline Neilm

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2017, 04:02:35 pm »

I'd really love to see a genuine product which needs a confirmity declaration, actually has one but the manufacturer got the logo wrong... So far I haven't...
A company I worked for managed that. The CE mark was embedded in the plastic moulding. The first samples were OK, but we needed to correct a mistake (the C-tick mark had changed). The new mark needed a bit more room, and so the designer just squashed up the logo a bit. We ended shiping the first 1000 units with incorrect logo before we could correct it.
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Offline Paul Moir

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2017, 05:54:41 am »
I challenge you to design a universally understood logo saying: "Don't throw in your regular trash".
This is why written languages were developed.  Unfortunately there are more than one, so the only answer is "Don't throw this in the trash" in all the languages you expect to reasonably communicate with.  It's annoying but we are human.  Tower of Babel and all.
 

Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2017, 12:25:58 am »
Also, self-certification is off the table for any RF devices not covered by a harmonized standard. As those are ordered by frequency and application, it is quite a tedious search. ETSI has guidace documents on this!
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: EEVblog #996 - What Is The CE Mark On A Product
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2017, 04:05:53 pm »
Anything sold inside the EU must show the real CE sign, otherwise if customs stumbles about it, it will be destroyed without further discussion and independent of whether the device has a conformity declaration or not.

No, if customs did that they'd be in the wrong. Not that that would stop German customs, who are the most officious and awkward in the universe - you'd think most of them popped out of the womb poised to immediately say "Das is nicht richtig" (Anyone who has had to deal with them will know what I mean).

The point the CE mark is required is when it is first "made available for sale" within the EU. It's quite lawful to import something unmarked, re-label it, and then put it on sale (as long as it is actually conforming naturally). I have an expensive lawyer's word for that, as this is something I've been involved with in the past.

If you think about it this makes sense, as parts that might be saleable on their own (say a contracted out switch mode power supply) couldn't be imported to subsequently make a complete CE labelled product with its own overall conformity process and markings. If customs had the right to immediately destroy products without a CE marking then products intended for re-export to a non-EU market couldn't transit the EU without the CE marking, which would both be facile and massively counter-productive for EU exports.
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