Author Topic: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive  (Read 39836 times)

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Offline c4757p

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2014, 09:45:21 pm »
Higher electricity use will encourage this development. You're not going to be able to do the development first unless you can convince people to spend their money on it with no real promise of something to use it for. The actual consumer applications become the pie in the sky, and then nobody cares about it.
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Online tom66

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2014, 10:21:31 pm »
Did you notice the web browser was missing? Australia and Hong Kong both have it shut off, for some reason. I'm not sure why.
 

Offline eneuro

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2014, 10:42:35 pm »
the electric car is a bigger polluter and waste of resources than the majority of fossil fuel burning vehicles.
When you have 7kW free solar energy grid at home and such quite huge range in the case of such powerfull 60kWh battery pack like in those top electric Tesla cars things changes  and it must be nightmare for classic cars companies, while many people do quite successfull conversions of classic cars to electric ones , and only need better cheaper batteries to make it more available :o

However, the main concern is always battery pack in electric vehicle and it could be nice to see some teardown of Tesla battery pack on the bottom of the car, what kind of batteries is used there and in which configuration that allows a few kW charges from 40A 230VAC one phase mains if well understood in this video, as well as regenerative brakeing which is involved with needs to dissipate many kW of mechanical energy or convert to electricity.

It means close to 9kW available @ 230VAC 40A, while 40kWh might be needed to recharge it means at least 4.4 hours at quite high 40A rate.

BTW: Please remove, those my Guest marked deleted posts, while Discus sucks and they are still there  :palm:
http://www.eevblog.com/2014/09/20/tesla-model-s-australian-test-drive/#disqus_thread
Sorry, I can do nothing with them now.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 10:48:11 pm by eneuro »
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Offline Frost

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2014, 11:00:18 pm »
The normal brake pedal is a hydraulic brake system delivered by Brembo (german engineering)
not electrically controlled ( the hydraulic pump is electric)

Brembo is italian, not german.
A german manufacturer of brake systems is Continental Teves (ATE Brakes)
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2014, 11:30:34 pm »

When you have 7kW free solar energy grid at home

Huh? 7kW free? How is solar equipment free? If you live off grid like I do, totally off grid, it is far from free. A typical solar system where I live that is sized to meet the normal consumer is closer to at least $10,000 USD as the starting investment, plus another $5,000 USD per 4-5 years to replace the batteries. Panels last around 20 years. Think about replacing a total system every 20 years with a total cost of around $30,000USD Free? HAHA!!!! :-DD

I am talking about the best place in the world with the best solar irradiance. Try the most populated places n the world and think more like $100,000 every 20 years.

My system has a maximum of 3kW production at peak times. I can maybe manage an average of 25kWH per day, 11kWH being consumed by every day activities, leaving maybe 22kWH to charge the Tesla. Hmmmm, I see a problem with your free 7kW solar energy all day and night.... Are you only going to charge your car in the daytime? I hardly think so. You need batteries to charge during the night and you will need batteries at least as big as the car has to do so, more like twice as big.

Until the sheeple stop being afraid of nuclear power, we are doomed to fossil fuels and other impracticable ways of producing energy and wasteful and idiotic ideas like electric cars. Until we change to nuclear power, electric cars are a total waste of time and pollute more and consume more than just burning fossil fuels in our cars directly.

Now having said all that, I am investigating making a small electric car for a daily short commute of 10km each direction for my wife. It only needs to go maximum 60km/H, and can charge every two days during the day. Maybe an old VW Beetle with some kind of conversion would work. I might even build a custom car myself.  The Tesla is just a rich man's toy at the expense of everyone else.
 

Offline eneuro

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2014, 12:02:02 am »
I am talking about the best place in the world with the best solar irradiance. Try the most populated places n the world and think more like $100,000 every 20 years.
I do not like typical things, so I've made many DIY's  which better fits my needs than commercial ones ::)
Thermal solar systems with sun tracking helps save a lof of money and have much better effciency than PV pannels  ;)
Even using 3 phase grid mains with night cheaper energy billings (hot water stored in big tanks can be used for heating home at night too, not electricity and low efficeint PV conversion to battery than heating) is quite cheap "fuel" in electric car while this energy is better consumed in more efficient ways in modern power inverters.

The main concern in EVs is batteries not electricity cost, so it is interesting how many km/miles lasts those builtin into Tesla cars?
40kWh cost is less than 10$.
When we take totals of energy from thermal solar power saveings and use it to charge electric car even using grid mains it looks like we drive for free  8)

BTW: There are many more efficient ways to get electricity from the sun than PVs .
For example those Infinia's units:

Quote
"Each Infinia unit generates 3 kilowatts of energy."

--
SUN is: 2014-09-21.989 23:44:28 UTC (2456922.489 JD)  lat: 5*.***N  lon: -2*.***E  Sun hour azimuth: 24.028  Sun (geo) azimuth: 155.972  Sun elevation: -36.370  Sun CSP power: 0.0 W  Day of the year: 264
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 12:06:17 am by eneuro »
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Offline free_electron

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2014, 03:43:39 am »
IMO a touchscreen is a really lousy UI for a car.
You need real knobs & buttons that you can feel without looking. Voice also seems like a good option if it can be made to work reliably.
The whole design of this car is set up in such a way you don't need buttons or knobs.
Right hand control stalk : forward, reverse neutral park.
Left control stalk blinkers , second left co trol stalk cruise control.

Navigation, phone integration and internet streaming are under voice control

Headlights are fully automatic. Windshield wipers too if you leave em in auto mode.

Volume up down is left roller on steering wheel. Next previous are left buttons on steering wheel.

That's it. What other controls do you need ?
Drive height , steering stiffness and all 25 other things you never touch while driving anyway. You set those up once and never go back to the config screen.

Typical tesla drivers have the center screen set up in split mode. Top is audio source, bottom is google earth. The instrument cluster is set with the energy graph to the right. Navigation pops up left when activated.

There is nothing to distract the driver.  It is not more distracting than regular built in nav systems. Actuallly it is less distracting as the nav sits in the instrument cluster.
Ive had mine for ten mo ths now. While driving i hardly ever touch the center screen. Only to change temperature.

The rollers on the steering wheel allow full control over everything. You can set those up the way you want.

In the model x the rollers are replaced with minii touchscreens. 4 buttons and touch gestures each. One left one right.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2014, 03:51:41 am »
As a tech geek and a motor head, this is really cool. I love it and the whole look of it. But, and it is a big but.....

It is a total waste of money, time, and technology with the world's current balance of power generation. Until we shut off all the fossil fuel generation, idiotic food crop produced fuel replacements, and pie in the sky wind generation failures, the electric car is a bigger polluter and waste of resources than the majority of fossil fuel burning vehicles. All this technological research money needs to moved to fusion research and other nuclear power generation before we think of more ways to use more electricity.

Elon....are you listening? Stop wasting your talent on consumer end use products and get on to the infrastructure!
Fusion is not feasible. It is decades away, even if you would throw top engineering at it.
We gotta start somewhere and it has to be now, we cant sit around another 20 years waiting.

There is a lot going on that you do not realise. Tesla is working on home storage units as well.
Here is a long term problem : as more people will drive electric this will impose an additional load on the existing grid and powerplants. Deploying solar in combination with home storage will take enough people off grid to make room for the electric vehicles. People that deploy ev in combination with the home storage can run their home and charge their car free (after initial investment of the system).

By deploying massive solar systems through solarcity tesla can deliver free power to tesla buyers.

The whole thing , energy shift , ev cars production, delivery battery plant is beeing tackled by tesla. There is a master plan. Do not underestimate these guys. They are three steps ahead of where you think they are three steps aheadof the rest ...

I think he is doing it right. He uses the current state of technology to make a serious effort.
If you don't agree with him feel free to start your own company and try it with fusion. But don't criticise someone that is trying, especially not while sitting in a chair not even making an attempt.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 04:15:58 am by free_electron »
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Offline Towger

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2014, 05:22:49 am »
Quote
That's it. What other controls do you need ?

Other car manufactures have done studies into touch screens and concluded that tactile controls are safer, as easier to locate and give tactile feed back to their current setting/position.

Take the window demisters for example, vital in damp and wet countries. You can't go messing around looking for the menu options when your front window suddenly starts to mist up on a cold wet morning, while traveling at 130kph on a crowed motorway. You need to have big easy to find and hit button, in front of you, especially if the driver does not know that model car.

BTW, I am saying this as someone who loves touchscreen and gadgets.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 05:24:36 am by Towger »
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2014, 06:16:34 am »
Did you notice the web browser was missing? Australia and Hong Kong both have it shut off, for some reason. I'm not sure why.

But Dave mentioned early in the video that he was able to go to the eevblog webpage  :-//
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2014, 06:38:01 am »
Japan's failed nuclear systems were built incorrectly, in the wrong place, and failed because of stupidity. This is a red herring.

I state that electric cars are a waste of time based on the electrical generation fuel balance we have in the world. Mine is totally solar so it does not count. My solar system sits idle for 2/3 of the day so using the excess energy to charge an electric car is reasonable.

Fusion is not the only option I mentioned. Fission is still safer, cleaner, and more efficient than any fossil fueled power plant, if designed and built correctly. More people have died and have had health problems for fossil fuel plants than all the failed nuclear power plants in the world. Coal plants in particular emit radioactive gasses and other toxic pollutants into the atmosphere. Even with stupidly designed and installed nuclear power, they have caused less health problems than the fossil fuel electric power generation insanity.

With an electric car you have less efficiency from converting the generated energy to actual locomotion through conversion to electricity, transmission, charging, and inversion to the motors, than just burning the fuel directly in the engine to power the wheels directly. It is insanity with our current balance power generation.

So stop electric car production until they are more efficient than just burning fuel directly, to whit when we have all of our electrical power generation from other ways than burning stuff. Wind generation is stupid IMHO. Solar in some areas where it makes sense, and the rest nuclear of some sort is the way to go.

Until this happens, electric cars are as stupid as solar roadways.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 06:40:06 am by Lightages »
 

Offline John_L

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2014, 07:04:14 am »
Quote
You need to have big easy to find and hit button, in front of you, especially if the driver does not know that model car
.

In the video, " opening sunroof" . Fumbling through the touch screen or rolling through the steering wheel control menu to do a very simple operation. I guess sunroof is not an important aspect of the car, but for F**K sake isn't it just easier to reach up to the roof and hit a mechanical button.

To me a lot of touch screen functionality has been implemented for the sake of using a big 17" touch screen rather than intuition and practicality.

In Australia base price for P85 is AU$119,900 BUT for a car that should be at the leading edge of technology, there is an optional "Tech Package" that includes "Navigation, keyless entry, memory seats and mirrors" amongst other things that costs AU$4,600. These optional items are now fairly standard and common on AU$20,000 Korean cars.  Parking sensors are also optional as separate package for AU$600. If I was in charge of marketing for Tesla I would resign from embarrassment.

$120K is a lot of money in anyones language, but if you are going to fork out that sort of money are you really going to penny pinch to save $5k and not have above options? I'm sure that fanboys will have a better logical explanation.
 

Online tom66

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2014, 09:24:27 am »
Tesla is production constrained (they can't produce enough to meet supply) and they have slowly been raising prices. They will charge as much as the market will bear, for now.

I imagine you'll see this change after the Gigafactory is finished and they have enough battery supply to produce cars at lower prices.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 09:58:46 am by tom66 »
 

Offline digital

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2014, 10:01:16 am »
A very interesting video Dave thank's for showing,What clearance from the bottom of the battery pack to the road surface? also what is the life of the battery pack under average driving conditions and the price and last how do you get service in the Australian outback.Regards to all.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2014, 11:09:37 am »
Quote
That's it. What other controls do you need ?

Other car manufactures have done studies into touch screens and concluded that tactile controls are safer, as easier to locate and give tactile feed back to their current setting/position.

Take the window demisters for example, vital in damp and wet countries. You can't go messing around looking for the menu options when your front window suddenly starts to mist up on a cold wet morning, while traveling at 130kph on a crowed motorway. You need to have big easy to find and hit button, in front of you, especially if the driver does not know that model car.

BTW, I am saying this as someone who loves touchscreen and gadgets.
And why do you need such a button in the first place ? It's 2014 for crying out loud. Why can't we have a simple humidty and condensation sensor detecting that the windshield is fogging over and redirecting airflow. Actually, you don't need a sensor at all. Simply redirect airflow so that the windows don't mist over. Same with wiper controls. Same with climate controls.

It's not a matter of having buttons or touchscreen, it's a matter of what can we remove altogether and automate it.

Here's a brainfart : most cars have a rotary dial for fan speed, a rotary dial from blue to red another dial to select direction a boost button (max ac) and a recirculation button. On a rental car i did the calculation of combinations that gives. It was over 1700 combination to set the desired temperature in the car. What assmonkey designed that brainfart ? Yet almost every car out there uses that setup. That is sheer insanity !
Homeywell invented the thermostat in the 50's. It was a simple round puck you would rotate one dial to the temperature of your liking and that was it. Every home has one. Why not cars ?
In the tesla you tell the car : i want 74 degrees and that's it. No fidgeting with where you want the air , boost or whatever. It is self regulating. The car has multiple temp sensors. Software does the rest.
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Offline max_torque

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2014, 11:36:08 am »
IMO a touchscreen is a really lousy UI for a car.
You need real knobs & buttons that you can feel without looking. Voice also seems like a good option if it can be made to work reliably.

The problem is that marketing and the "that looks cool" factor (solar freaking roadways anyone?? ;-) are starting to outweigh good design in passenger cars!  For example, try and use a touch screen at arms length, whilst not looking at it, whilst driving down a bumpy road, its really rather hard!

My car has full voice activation, but tbh, i never use it.  To use it, you need to push a button on the steering wheel, and then remember which one of about 50 commands you need to say in the right order to get it to do what you want.  OR you can just push one button that does what you want it to do immediately!  (luckily, the manufacturers of my car have seen fit to leave the majority of main functions with discrete buttons ;-)

I suspect, that crashes due to in-attention from in car distractions are going to increase rapidly!
 

Offline max_torque

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2014, 11:53:02 am »
Here's a brainfart : most cars have a rotary dial for fan speed, a rotary dial from blue to red another dial to select direction a boost button (max ac) and a recirculation button. On a rental car i did the calculation of combinations that gives. It was over 1700 combination to set the desired temperature in the car. What assmonkey designed that brainfart ? Yet almost every car out there uses that setup. That is sheer insanity !

You're a funny man.  :-+  :-DD

Er, why is it "insanity"??  I'd say it's more stupid to be able to set your car to exactly 74degF or whatever!  Humans are either "hot" or "cold" in which case, all you need to know is that you need to turn the knob right a bit to be warmer, and left a bit to be colder, the fact that there are thousands of possible settings are irrelevant.

It's like the obsession with modern cars of having everything adjustable or selectable or with loads of modes etc  Frankly, the average driver is only just capable of simply driving their car, and is in no position to decide what damping co-efficient the suspension should be set to at any given moment for example!  (which is why "Chassis dynamics engineers" were invented, to work all that hard stuff out for us ;-)
 

Offline nukie

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2014, 12:06:47 pm »
Quote
You need to have big easy to find and hit button, in front of you, especially if the driver does not know that model car
.

In the video, " opening sunroof" . Fumbling through the touch screen or rolling through the steering wheel control menu to do a very simple operation. I guess sunroof is not an important aspect of the car, but for F**K sake isn't it just easier to reach up to the roof and hit a mechanical button.

To me a lot of touch screen functionality has been implemented for the sake of using a big 17" touch screen rather than intuition and practicality.

In Australia base price for P85 is AU$119,900 BUT for a car that should be at the leading edge of technology, there is an optional "Tech Package" that includes "Navigation, keyless entry, memory seats and mirrors" amongst other things that costs AU$4,600. These optional items are now fairly standard and common on AU$20,000 Korean cars.  Parking sensors are also optional as separate package for AU$600. If I was in charge of marketing for Tesla I would resign from embarrassment.

$120K is a lot of money in anyones language, but if you are going to fork out that sort of money are you really going to penny pinch to save $5k and not have above options? I'm sure that fanboys will have a better logical explanation.

What Elon has done on Tesla is to differentiate themselves from other car manufacturers but I don't understand the idea of a Benz sourced steering wheel. Maybe they have shares in Tesla. Anyway, to do away with knobs and stuff is a way of masking quality and minimising cost. The knobs and switches need to be built and designed a certain way so the touch experience can translate the quality of the built. If you have sloppy and loose knobs, immediately effects the buyers opinion. The lack of buttons and knobs deprive you of traditional judgement of quality but the inclusive of huge display fills the void. You can say Elon is clever to avoid such cost or simply a product of a immature automobile manufacturer.

A big screen is there to attract new younger generation. It's all show but it makes no difference to how the car ride or to the driving experience. Those need at least 10w of power, many more under bright sun, you can do away without. It's really cheap to have one big display panel and do away with high quality feel buttons and knobs.

I need knobs, the more the better. The car doesn't know my feet is too cold and my head is being hit directly by harsh Aussie sun. My car doesn't know I am wearing a scarf and a beanie but i have soccer shorts on. The auto climate never works.

The Model S is aim directly at luxury car like the Bmw5 series so the pricing should be around there. Again the Australian Tax comes into play, no company will not let Aussie consumers have their goods without a bite of our arm or legs even some wants a piece of the kidney. Like all luxury cars, options list fill pages, base models always look poor.

I believe as the cheaper cars gain better build and quality the gap will be closed. Anyway luxury cars reliability are dropping nowadays, what's the point if you can't even have the most basic form of security when you pay top dollars.

If I could afford that sort of money, I would go for a car with reliability and pedigree such as a Porsche. I think Lithium technology still need lots of improvement to bring the weight down and capacity up.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 12:14:47 pm by nukie »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2014, 12:16:28 pm »
Until this happens, electric cars are as stupid as solar roadways.

Not for those who's lifestyle and circumstances suit them to a tea.
My next car will be fully electric for that reason.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2014, 12:51:52 pm »

Fusion is not feasible. It is decades away, even if you would throw top engineering at it.
We gotta start somewhere and it has to be now, we cant sit around another 20 years waiting.


Why not? 20 years is nothing.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2014, 01:05:31 pm »
Just for fun, I'd like to see a Tesla repeatedly run over an Edison robot.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 01:08:24 pm by Stonent »
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Offline Towger

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2014, 01:28:05 pm »
In the tesla you tell the car : i want 74 degrees and that's it. No fidgeting with where you want the air , boost or whatever. It is self regulating. The car has multiple temp sensors. Software does the rest.

I think you need to drive modern European cars again. My 8 year old Renault Scenic (POS) has full climate control, just set the required temperature (20 degrees Celsius) on the up and down buttons and let it do its stuff.  It is dark, the lights go on. It rains and the wipers change speed depending on how fast you are going and how wet it thinks the front windscreen is. Unfortunately this wiper speed 'feature' is a bit temperamental, well it is a French car...  What is does not do is detect the windscreen misting up. But, when it does I just press one button and the climate control turns on the A/C, turns the fan on high and directs the airflow up to the screen, it even reduces reduced the fan speed if it detects the air from the engine is not hot enough. The climate control will go back to normal after a couple of minutes,  if not pressed again to turn off demist.
 

Offline bitwelder

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2014, 01:41:45 pm »
What happens to a Tesla at cruise speed if someone shoots a high-energy RF gun at it (pick your preference for 'high-energy' and 'RF') ?
 

Online tom66

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Re: EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2014, 03:13:31 pm »
What happens to a Tesla at cruise speed if someone shoots a high-energy RF gun at it (pick your preference for 'high-energy' and 'RF') ?

Exactly the same as if someone did the same to a petrol car: nothing. They do EM testing like all manufacturers.

(In the worst case it'll trip a fault and the battery contactors will open. You'll shortly lose drive power, but since the rest of the car's systems, like vacuum-driven brakes and the power steering are driven from the 12V battery rather than the engine, you'll have more control over the vehicle.)

In most cases, if a non-critical fault is detected, it will temporarily go into limp mode with 40kW power maximum (enough to cruise at 80mph, just about.)

Here's a look at the Model S drive inverter and motor, from none other than Tesla themselves:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34964-Tesla-Owner-Event-during-Monterey-car-week-and-a-new-line-of-Tesla-leather-goods

Note dual redundant processors on the controller PCB. I would guess each receives an independent accelerator pedal input and they have to agree or the system will throw a contactor abort (loud "clunk", all power lost.)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 03:17:44 pm by tom66 »
 


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