Author Topic: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.  (Read 3850 times)

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Offline Scopetechniques

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Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« on: April 24, 2019, 12:57:20 pm »
Dave,

In your EEVBlog #1203 you actually have a fake 2465B - it is really a 2445B with a fake badge and someone probably shorted out the bandwidth limiting spiral inductor on the mainboard.

I vote for a followup on how this is done.  It's a nice mod for a 2445B owner, since it increases the BW from around 200MHz to almost 400Mhz.  It is however highly unscrupulous to make this mod and sell it as a 2465B.
This scope will never tune like a real 2465B.

--V
 
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2019, 01:45:22 pm »
It's also good buyer education for anyone who's shopping for a 2465B in case you end up with a modded one and want to dispute it.
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Online tautech

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2019, 02:20:28 pm »
Dave,

In your EEVBlog #1203 you actually have a fake 2465B - it is really a 2445B with a fake badge and someone probably shorted out the bandwidth limiting spiral inductor on the mainboard.
Because it hasn't got the 3D badge, right ?

Quote
I vote for a followup on how this is done.  It's a nice mod for a 2445B owner, since it increases the BW from around 200MHz to almost 400Mhz.  It is however highly unscrupulous to make this mod and sell it as a 2465B.
This scope will never tune like a real 2465B.
Is it easy enough to do by just sweeping a sinewave frequency up to find the -3dB point ?
Roughly what should the -3dB point be for a 'real' 2465B ?
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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2019, 02:22:02 pm »
Hmm, well this seems interesting, investigating now...
 

Offline Scopetechniques

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2019, 03:04:22 pm »
Right, the "Tektronix" should be raised lettering and blue. "2465B" should be gray.

I can adjust the 3dB point on a real 2465B to 490~510MHz.
Transient response on a real 2465B can be adjusted to around 820pS.

I guarantee this scope will never do that.  It can probably be adj to 390Mhz BW and 1.1ns step resp, which is good for a 2445B, but certainly not a 2465B.
 
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2019, 03:40:19 pm »
Same here.
I have (in history) used and calibrated and repaired several 2445A, -B, 2465, 2465A. 2465A-DM, 2465B etc..  and least I have never seen this style front panel label. (today I have only one 2465A-DM because it is so "mint" condition and powon well under 1000 hours, just like new, so I have put it in storage under protection)

Perhaps it is good to look if there inside can see any signs about this "well known" 2445B -> "2465B" mod.

https://forum.tek.com/viewtopic.php?t=136149
(and lot of other discussion here and there..)

(but, it need think carefully what opinions you believe...and what are alternative trumpths, reasons are not always as some ones first think in mind...   imho, is it only marketing trick. Well, I really do not believe.
Genuine 2465B is bit more than just barely - marginally 400MHz, least what I have seen and remember.  (but perhaps I suffer also about some Tek religion.... or then not)
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline 0culus

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2019, 03:44:26 pm »
I was thinking the badge looked funny, but I chalked it up to possibly differences in years of manufacture. The 3 dB point on my 2465B is in the neighborhood of 520 MHz. [edit] but you don't buy a 400 MHz scope to look at 400 MHz signals anyway, so the exact 3 dB point is not terribly useful except as a measure of how clean of a lower frequency square wave you can see. A clean 10 MHz square wave has odd harmonics with measurable power above 300 MHz.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 03:49:39 pm by 0culus »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2019, 05:18:54 pm »
https://forum.tek.com/viewtopic.php?t=136149
(and lot of other discussion here and there..)

More detailed information, including responses from the perp, at https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/topic/2465b_vs_2467/7652505

As one response in that thread says, "Imagine someone claiming their knock-off 'Gucci' lookalike handbag holds your wallet and car keys just as effectively as a genuine one, so they should be allowed to sell it as a real one."
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 05:21:37 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline BravoV

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2019, 07:15:22 pm »
Posted on main EEVBlog #1203 thread the badges comparison between Dave's vs my 2465B.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 07:25:17 pm by BravoV »
 
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Online bd139

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2019, 10:50:43 pm »
This is the hardware version of cracking a DS1054Z. Discuss...

(I don’t agree with rebranding it for ref but “cracking” is fine)
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2019, 11:02:45 pm »
Hmm, well this seems interesting, investigating now...
Wow, never heard of that! Perhars this is why it did not have a blue screen filter either?
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Online CJay

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2019, 11:24:29 pm »
This is the hardware version of cracking a DS1054Z. Discuss...

(I don’t agree with rebranding it for ref but “cracking” is fine)

I'm fine with hardware mods, evn the unlocking of software options (for perosnal use, for gain is exceptionally dodgy) the rebranding is scummy though.
M0UAW
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2019, 11:25:52 pm »
This is the hardware version of cracking a DS1054Z. Discuss...

(I don’t agree with rebranding it for ref but “cracking” is fine)

Cracking, then relabelling, then selling by "passing off" as a higher spec item.

So not really comparable at all.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline wch

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2019, 11:40:32 pm »
This is the hardware version of cracking a DS1054Z. Discuss...

(I don’t agree with rebranding it for ref but “cracking” is fine)

I think modding gear to improve performance and reselling it is fine, as long as you disclose what you’ve done.  My DZ1054Z is “upgraded” but I don’t hide the fact by faking a different front panel badge for it if I decide to sell it with the mod. Doing so is simply unethical and dishonorable.

I read through the tekscope thread and the modder’s justification for his behavior is typical for a cheat  caught in the act.

edit:  I have to think more about selling gear that has been cracked. If I find a crack and turn upgrading a piece of gear into a business, that seems clearly unethical. If I sell my modded to gear as a one-off? Maybe that, too.  I have always figured that I’d return my software modded gear to factory reset form before shipping it, so this question hasn’t come up for me.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 11:47:05 pm by wch »
proceed until apprehended
 

Offline grbk

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2019, 12:02:14 am »
This is the hardware version of cracking a DS1054Z. Discuss...

(I don’t agree with rebranding it for ref but “cracking” is fine)

In addition to the points raised by tggzzz and others, it has never been clear to me whether a 2445x with the "mods" is actually equivalent to a stock 2465x. Does the 2465 simply lack the pcb filter, or does it have a different filter implemented? If the 2465 simply lacks the filter, then I suppose the hacked up 2445 could be equivalent performance wise (absent a rigorous performance comparison). If the 2465 has a different filter implemented, then I would assume the modded 2445 is not equivalent to a 2465 (again absent a rigorous performance comparison).

My understanding is a hacked 1054z is identical, performance-wise, to the 1104z.
 

Offline edavid

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2019, 12:08:15 am »
In addition to the points raised by tggzzz and others, it has never been clear to me whether a 2445x with the "mods" is actually equivalent to a stock 2465x. Does the 2465 simply lack the pcb filter, or does it have a different filter implemented?

The 2465x has a different filter.
 
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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2019, 12:40:16 am »
Hmm, well this seems interesting, investigating now...
Wow, never heard of that! Perhars this is why it did not have a blue screen filter either?

No, it was simply missing. Both models have the blue screen but it's trivial to just slide up and out. I changed mine from the other unit no problems.
 

Offline mnementh

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2019, 08:24:17 am »
Who cares? These 'scopes were sent into the mailbag years ago as DOA units reclaimed from the recycle bin; nobody bought them.  :palm:

The phony labels may very well have been applied as replacement parts for actual 2465s with damaged faceplates. These "reprinted" labels and front covers have been available as "repair parts" on fleaBay literally for decades. The fact that one of these front covers showed up randomly in one of Dave's videos is no proof of any skullduggery of any kind. We need to actually poke around in its innards to know that.  :o

Jeebus folks... get some proportion here. Sometimes a cigar is just a effing cigar.  ::)

mnem
 :popcorn:
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 08:31:42 am by mnementh »
 
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Offline Scopetechniques

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2019, 12:02:41 pm »
Who cares? These 'scopes were sent into the mailbag years ago as DOA units reclaimed from the recycle bin; nobody bought them.  :palm:

TThe fact that one of these front covers showed up randomly in one of Dave's videos is no proof of any skullduggery of any kind. We need to actually poke around in its innards to know that.  :o

Jeebus folks... get some proportion here. Sometimes a cigar is just a effing cigar.  ::)

mnem
 :popcorn:

Didn't you read the other posts?  The badge is not the issue :palm: :palm:
The badge was a clue that something was wrong, when Dave showed the mainboard I recognized it immediately as definitely not a 2465B, as many others did.

The point here is NOT that this scope was junked and donated to Dave, it's that someone modified a much cheaper scope and passed it off as a 2465B at some time in its history.

--V
 

Offline mnementh

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2019, 01:30:44 pm »
Or that somebody needed a front cover to fix a 24xx scope and bought one with a 2465B badge on it because that was what was available, or because they didn't know better, or they simply made a mistake. Or that these scopes were robbed for parts to fix other scopes before they were junked and that was how they happened to get slapped back together to go on the skip. The markings on individual subsections suggests that; exactly the same way I triage units for parts when I buy lots of same/similar units of anything electronic by the pallet. These units came naked, so not exactly obvious that they're even the "same units" as when bought by the last owner who actually used them.

Even if the frontend HAS been modded the way 2465b did his units, no way of knowing if it was sold that way or modded after-the-fact. The mod is pretty well-known; IF DAVE'S UNIT HAS BEEN SO MODDED anybody could have done it at any point in the unit's life. Including the prior owner. Agreed, the fact of reprint badge AND wrong frontend is suspicious; clearly not all the same unit. But it doesn't necessarily point to any wrongdoing.

These are JUNKED OSCILLOSCOPES. You can't assume anything about them.

mnem
 :popcorn:





« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 03:28:43 am by mnementh »
 
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Offline BravoV

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2019, 03:50:17 pm »
Well, agree, there is nothing significant thing to do on the Dave's junk unit, its not like that is the only scope that Dave owns, and its also a free scope that was donated to him.

I think up to this stage, the important matter is to bring the awareness of potential victim in the future, on buying such dodgy scope, especially with Dave's reach at mass audiences, isn't this a good thing ?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 08:05:32 pm by BravoV »
 
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Offline SparkyFX

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2019, 04:40:41 pm »
If it is a modded model, was sold at some point this way as this model, it simply was fraud, no matter who you bought from, how knowledgeble the person was. If it was indistinguishable, it would be identical in specs and features (which becomes a problem when it comes to changes during serial production).

Not a big case of fraud, you still got a working device with somewhat close specs, but in the worst case premeditated, fraudulent and maybe in a profit driven motivation. But stuff gets sold for all kinds of reasons by anyone, not all are ill-intended.

But it can´t hurt to learn more about this.
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Offline Scopetechniques

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2019, 10:22:04 pm »
mnementh,

You're still missing the point,

Take a look at this post by RFLOOP earlier in this thread.

https://forum.tek.com/viewtopic.php?t=136149
(and lot of other discussion here and there..)

I didn't think I would have to put it in your face like this, but this guy has been doing this on ebay for years to unsuspecting buyers.
Still think it's nothing?
 
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Offline Per Hansson

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2019, 11:56:20 pm »
I think up to this stage, the important matter is to bring the awareness of potential victim in the future, on buying such dodgy scope, especially with Dave's reach at mass audiences, isn't this a good thing ?
I absolutely agree and thank you and Scopetechniques for bringing awareness, I certainly had not heard about this before and I have read quite a bit of the big 2465B thread here on eevblog!
 

Offline mnementh

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2019, 04:00:30 am »
mnementh,

You're still missing the point,

Take a look at this post by RFLOOP earlier in this thread.

https://forum.tek.com/viewtopic.php?t=136149
(and lot of other discussion here and there..)

I didn't think I would have to put it in your face like this, but this guy has been doing this on ebay for years to unsuspecting buyers.
Still think it's nothing?

Now it's MY TURN to ask if YOU even read my post; go ahead and read it again, I'll wait.  ::)

Yes, I know about this guy. I even bought parts from him to resurrect my own 2465 scopes, more than a decade ago. I think the rebadging thing he does is outright fraud, and it's a shame, because when I needed parts the guy was helpful and gave me fair prices, and even sent me pics to help. Fraud is fraud, and I loathe it just like you do.

But you guys are adding apples and imaginary a-holes and coming up with "OMG WTFBBQ!!!" and running around with your hair on fire. :scared: It is mob mentality, pure & simple.

Needless sensationalism does no good to this venue. It makes people discount the value of articles by people like Dave. Sure... there's a slim chance that this one unit made it from an unscrupulous seller in the US all the way to OZ and wound up in a skip with a bad power supply... then got sent to Dave and sat around on the mailbag shelf for years.  :o

But REALLY... that is highly unlikely, and using this video as a thin pretense to AGAIN trash this guy in ANOTHER public forum is just... trashy. You've done your part, you've brought the possibility to Dave's attention. That could have been done in PM, or with a single post. The "Reality TV" title of this thread is what I'm talking about; that entire attitude is inflammatory and childish. We have no evidence at all that this scope is a fake anything, or that 2465b ever even came within missile range of the thing.

We have NOTHING that ties this guy to this scope, except VERY SUPERFICIAL APPEARANCE and the fact that YOU'RE PISSED OFF AT HIS EXISTENCE.

Get some effing perspective, man.  :palm:

mnem
 |O
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 04:22:36 am by mnementh »
 

Offline edavid

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2019, 06:37:41 am »
Sure... there's a slim chance that this one unit made it from an unscrupulous seller in the US all the way to OZ and wound up in a skip with a bad power supply... then got sent to Dave and sat around on the mailbag shelf for years.  :o

But REALLY... that is highly unlikely

I don't think it's so unlikely... Alex has been doing this for a long time.  I remember him outbidding me on 2445s at auctions 30 years ago!  And although a lot of people knew about the possibility of the mod, I only know one other guy who made a practice of it (he was upfront about it, and certainly never changed the nameplate).
 

Online med6753

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2019, 07:04:24 am »
Is this guy Alex a member of the blog?
An old gray beard with an attitude.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2019, 08:22:45 am »
Seems like it's at least as likely that this is a frankenscope that someone has salvaged years ago. I certainly have done the "turn two junkers into one good one" thing more than once with various gear. Either way Dave got them for free so who cares what originally happened? If someone got away with fraud then they already got away with it, statute of limitations has passed, ancient history.
 
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Offline Scopetechniques

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2019, 09:37:13 am »
mnementh,

Yes, I know about this guy. I even bought parts from him to resurrect my own 2465 scopes, more than a decade ago. I think the rebadging thing he does is outright fraud, and it's a shame, because when I needed parts the guy was helpful and gave me fair prices, and even sent me pics to help. Fraud is fraud, and I loathe it just like you do.


Ok, so we agree.  I have no problem with the guy and I was not planning on posting anymore to this thread.
He's already been crucified plenty in the Tekscopes forum and not by me.

I am almost 100% certain he commissioned those fake badges.  The only scopes I have seen on ebay for sale with those badges were from him.

Nuff said. BTW, I get the impression that Dave likes calling out scammers, just a feeling from watching his videos.

--V
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2019, 10:17:06 am »






Uploading EEVblog Youtube #1203-B aka Part 2  should sort it out,

before any serious imperial entanglements get underway    ;D



 

Offline mnementh

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2019, 02:32:59 pm »

Yes, I know about this guy. I even bought parts from him to resurrect my own 2465 scopes, more than a decade ago. I think the rebadging thing he does is outright fraud, and it's a shame, because when I needed parts the guy was helpful and gave me fair prices, and even sent me pics to help. Fraud is fraud, and I loathe it just like you do.

Ok, so we agree.  I have no problem with the guy and I was not planning on posting anymore to this thread.
He's already been crucified plenty in the Tekscopes forum and not by me.

I am almost 100% certain he commissioned those fake badges.  The only scopes I have seen on ebay for sale with those badges were from him.

Nuff said. BTW, I get the impression that Dave likes calling out scammers, just a feeling from watching his videos.

--V

No, those badges were available on eBay almost 15 years ago when I was rebuilding my ex-NASA 2465; already on faceplates being sold as spares. I actually considered getting one for a third 2465 but it wound up a parts mule. You can see from the guy's arguments in the posts you linked to that he was buying mass quantities of real badges from Tek.

My point is that what this was turning into... actually has turned into... is 3 different threads (that I know of) full of people all ready to lynch this guy AGAIN just because of a random junked scope halfway around the world that LOOKED LIKE it had been rebadged. Smeesh.

Like I said... mob mentality. "Guv'mint was late with muh disability check! They're eebil!" "Gitcher torches & pitchforks; we gonna burn down the school!!!"  :palm:

Yes, we all know this. And from here, it's pretty apparent that "feeding this guy to the Dave Monster" was the actual motivation for HAVING TO discuss it so loudly in DAVE'S THREAD, as opposed to any of a number of other threads on eevBlog where, like the TekForums thread, it has already been discussed at length. Thanks for raising the bar so high.   ::)

mnem
 :-BROKE
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 05:34:07 am by mnementh »
 
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Offline Scopetechniques

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2019, 01:16:16 am »
Dave,

I hope you dissect the fake 2465B, not to place blame on any individual, but as information for possible buyers of this scope.
These are still selling for good money on ebay when refurbished and calibrated.

Also, it would be a nice hack for people with a 2445B if they need more BW.

--V
 

Offline Mighty Burger

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2019, 01:27:17 am »
If you mod a 2445B into a 2465B with that bandwith hack what differences would remain? Would that hacked scope be any less capable than an original 2465B?
 

Offline 0culus

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Re: Fake 2465B in EEVblog #1203.
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2019, 01:29:13 am »
Yes, it will be less capable in terms of the minimum rise time it can resolve, but you'll need a very fast pulse generator to see it.
 


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