Life Is Normal In Sydney

[Ed.Kloonk]

I just read that Qantas is to require proof of vaccination from travelers, going forward...

That is likely to happen everywhere, it seems to me.

Somehow that gives me an uneasy feeling. Next thing you know vaccinated people need to stitch a yellow 5 pointed star on their clothes with a V (for vaccinated) on it.

More like UNvaccinated people will be made uncomfortable...

That's the general idea. People who refuse to get vaccinated and thus deliberately make themselves a danger to the rest of society *should* be made to feel uncomfortable. There are legitimate reasons that a small percentage of people cannot be vaccinated but these are few and far between. I'm ok with people doing whatever they please at home or on some private island, but as soon as they're out mingling in society there are rules that we all need to follow.
More like UNvaccinated people will be made uncomfortable...

What I don't understand is why a few muppets who aren't vaccinated would annoy you, if, you are indeed vaccinated yourself?

I don't understand. Why do you care?

[vk6zgo]

I just read that Qantas is to require proof of vaccination from travelers, going forward...

That is likely to happen everywhere, it seems to me.

Somehow that gives me an uneasy feeling. Next thing you know vaccinated people need to stitch a yellow 5 pointed star on their clothes with a V (for vaccinated) on it.

When I travelled by ship to the UK from Oz in the 70s, I had to carry an "International Vaccination Certificate" with my Passport to get into most countries.(from memory, it was yellow).
Some still require one.

[wasyoungonce]

What I don't understand is why a few muppets who aren't vaccinated would annoy you, if, you are indeed vaccinated yourself?
I don't understand. Why do you care?

Australia is a little different you have to be vaccinated for childhood and other infectious our you will not get the Australian government childcare supplement payments nor a childcare..   Not sure on school placement.  The only reason you do not need is a medical exception for anaphylactic reactions or something.

Ok I know that'll be contentious in other places....it is here, only be a small number.  I think the reasoning is not all vaccinations for life are infact for life they do wear off.  I got the Mumps a few years back despite having the immunisation as a kid.  Infectious disease Dr said he's seeing it more and more.  Also some people like younger children may not be able to have the immunisation yet (I have no idea just say'in) so its for their protection as well. 

I read most vaccinations need 95% coverage to be effective.

https://www.aph.gov.au/about_parliament/parliamentary_departments/parliamentary_library/pubs/rp/budgetreview201516/vaccination

As for Covid......I have no idea how the government will roll it out or ask citizens to have it, nor do I know if it will be mandatory, probably not, but its a pandemic not a flu so who knows atm?.  I will.....pretty quickly.

This is Australia not other nations, although New Zealand is pretty much the same aligned. Edit: Actually NZ is not compulsory atm they are looking at it after a recent measles outbreak.. 

[AlfBaz]

I just read that Qantas is to require proof of vaccination from travelers, going forward...

That is likely to happen everywhere, it seems to me.

Whether this is a good idea or not  may be up for debate but it's a debate to be had by the government and its people not some company trying to protect its bottom line.
I strongly doubt they would have any legal standing on trying to enforce such a thing without government backing

[tautech]

I just read that Qantas is to require proof of vaccination from travelers, going forward...

That is likely to happen everywhere, it seems to me.

Whether this is a good idea or not  may be up for debate but it's a debate to be had by the government and its people not some company trying to protect its bottom line.
I strongly doubt they would have any legal standing on trying to enforce such a thing without government backing

Don't too sure about this, it's their workplace so if you wanna enter it abide by their rules !
Sure there's likely to be a shitstorm about this however IMO you'll see more of this in the future and especially in Oz.
Everyone wants to get back to 'business as usual' and compulsory vacs will speed this along.

[SilverSolder]

What I don't understand is why a few muppets who aren't vaccinated would annoy you, if, you are indeed vaccinated yourself?
I don't understand. Why do you care?

Australia is a little different you have to be vaccinated for childhood and other infectious our you will not get the Australian government childcare supplement payments nor a childcare..   Not sure on school placement.  The only reason you do not need is a medical exception for anaphylactic reactions or something.

Ok I know that'll be contentious in other places....it is here, only be a small number.  I think the reasoning is not all vaccinations for life are infact for life they do wear off.  I got the Mumps a few years back despite having the immunisation as a kid.  Infectious disease Dr said he's seeing it more and more.  Also some people like younger children may not be able to have the immunisation yet (I have no idea just say'in) so its for their protection as well. 

I read most vaccinations need 95% coverage to be effective.

https://www.aph.gov.au/about_parliament/parliamentary_departments/parliamentary_library/pubs/rp/budgetreview201516/vaccination

As for Covid......I have no idea how the government will roll it out or ask citizens to have it, nor do I know if it will be mandatory, probably not, but its a pandemic not a flu so who knows atm?.  I will.....pretty quickly.

This is Australia not other nations, although New Zealand is pretty much the same aligned. Edit: Actually NZ is not compulsory atm they are looking at it after a recent measles outbreak..

Vaccinations are generally not contentious in European countries either.  Similar rules are in place, i.e. you have to have certain vaccinations...  or else they will make life hard for you.

[james_s]

What I don't understand is why a few muppets who aren't vaccinated would annoy you, if, you are indeed vaccinated yourself?

I don't understand. Why do you care?

Because it can easily be more than "a few" and because vaccinations only work if we achieve herd immunity. It's like asking why a few idiots dropping a deuce in the pool would annoy me. A relatively small number of unvaccinated people can spoil the whole effort for everybody and in the US where this whole thing has become so political I expect there will be millions who refuse to get vaccinated. It could result in this pandemic never ending.

[dcac]

Hearing about massvaccination I can’t help thinking about what happened here in Sweden during the 2009 Swine flu (pandemic). Even though there were relatively few confirmed cases of the flu the media driven panic was about as total as it could get and Sweden was very eager to buy vaccine as soon as it became available. The vaccine was called Pandemrix and was hastily developed at least in the aspect that it was ‘boosted’ by a controversial substance called Squalen. But Sweden bought about 10 million doses anyway and about 6.1 million was used equating to about 60% of Sweden’s population being vaccinated.

Then during 2010-2011 symptoms of the rare but quite devastating illness Narcolepsy was noticed especially among youngsters 12-18 years old. About 500 cases but the exact number is still being debated and probably is considerable higher - a figure of 4000 has been mentioned. It has been confirmed though it was Pandemrix that caused it - but other factors also played in. i.e. due to the cold weather in Sweden we usually have a more aggressive immune system than people who live in warmer climate.

[james_s]

The media hype surrounding other pandemics caused a lot of people to blow this one off I think. Covid is clearly a different beast than any other disease that has gone around in my lifetime though. I've never seen hospitals fill up like they have been during this mess. A friend of the family works in a hospital near here and mentioned that they're currently around 80% full and there is a lot of concern that they'll have to start triaging and deciding who to provide lifesaving care to unless infection numbers drop. I think December is going to be particularly grim. 

[EEVblog]

Hearing about massvaccination I can’t help thinking about what happened here in Sweden during the 2009 Swine flu (pandemic). Even though there were relatively few confirmed cases of the flu the media driven panic was about as total as it could get and Sweden was very eager to buy vaccine as soon as it became available. The vaccine was called Pandemrix and was hastily developed at least in the aspect that it was ‘boosted’ by a controversial substance called Squalen. But Sweden bought about 10 million doses anyway and about 6.1 million was used equating to about 60% of Sweden’s population being vaccinated.

IIRC Australia bought and stockpiled a similar number os doses of that (or similar). I don't believe it was ever used, I don't recall anyone ever actually getting the vaccination. It was just completely fogotten about. The biggest news story at the time was that a few footballers stopped playing because they had a runny nose.
Ah, here is a link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_swine_flu_pandemic_in_Australia#Health_recommendations

[dcac]

I think in Sweden the swine flu was only really noticed by the media - if anyone actually had it they probably didn’t know it - at least not that it was that specific flu.

I clearly remember though how aggressive the vaccination campaign was - media even drew a picture - those who did not get vaccinated should not really expect to receive any other health care if they got sick.

This time with Covid though Swedish media was like - first they considerably downplayed the risk of it ever reaching us - then they were very reluctant to enforce any restrictions i.e. Sweden actually had to be ordered by the European Union to close any borders - and then Swedish media even made fun of our neighbouring countries like Denmark for being very restrictive of swedes entering into Denmark. And now Swedish media slowly more and more seem to promote vaccination is a must. 

[wasyoungonce]

Whooo

Finally in Victoria (a smallish Australian state ~ 6.4million) pronounced Covid free 28 days....now pronounced "eliminated".

Well...at least till it all efff's up again.  It wasn't easy it was hard lockdowns, twice, finally almost normal as long as manage incoming properly.  Lets hope we learned our lessons.   Lots still wearing masks....including me.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-27/victoria-28-days-no-coronavirus-cases-australia/12924922

[vk6zgo]

I think in Sweden the swine flu was only really noticed by the media - if anyone actually had it they probably didn’t know it - at least not that it was that specific flu.

I clearly remember though how aggressive the vaccination campaign was - media even drew a picture - those who did not get vaccinated should not really expect to receive any other health care if they got sick.

This time with Covid though Swedish media was like - first they considerably downplayed the risk of it ever reaching us - then they were very reluctant to enforce any restrictions i.e. Sweden actually had to be ordered by the European Union to close any borders - and then Swedish media even made fun of our neighbouring countries like Denmark for being very restrictive of swedes entering into Denmark. And now Swedish media slowly more and more seem to promote vaccination is a must. 

In Australia, there was a small hardcore of vociferous people deriding the very effective methods we used here & promoting the "Swedish model" as the answer to the pandemic.
Thankfully, they were ignored, & we went with much more restrictive measures which worked.

The idea that effective methods were "so damaging to the economy" that we should just "learn to live with a few thousand deaths" has been proven to be bullshit, as the economies in countries which did little or nothing to combat corona virus, resulting in massive hospitalisation (& deaths) have been hit just as hard, if not harder.

There are some "Swedish Models" I would embrace with alacrity, but not this one!

[nctnico]

Hearing about massvaccination I can’t help thinking about what happened here in Sweden during the 2009 Swine flu (pandemic). Even though there were relatively few confirmed cases of the flu the media driven panic was about as total as it could get and Sweden was very eager to buy vaccine as soon as it became available. The vaccine was called Pandemrix and was hastily developed at least in the aspect that it was ‘boosted’ by a controversial substance called Squalen. But Sweden bought about 10 million doses anyway and about 6.1 million was used equating to about 60% of Sweden’s population being vaccinated.

Then during 2010-2011 symptoms of the rare but quite devastating illness Narcolepsy was noticed especially among youngsters 12-18 years old. About 500 cases but the exact number is still being debated and probably is considerable higher - a figure of 4000 has been mentioned. It has been confirmed though it was Pandemrix that caused it - but other factors also played in. i.e. due to the cold weather in Sweden we usually have a more aggressive immune system than people who live in warmer climate.

Then again the swine flu (or Mexican flu as we call it over here) was nowhere near as problematic (deaths and hospitalisations) compared to Covid-19. You can't even start to compare.

[EEVblog]

I think in Sweden the swine flu was only really noticed by the media - if anyone actually had it they probably didn’t know it - at least not that it was that specific flu.

I clearly remember though how aggressive the vaccination campaign was - media even drew a picture - those who did not get vaccinated should not really expect to receive any other health care if they got sick.

This time with Covid though Swedish media was like - first they considerably downplayed the risk of it ever reaching us - then they were very reluctant to enforce any restrictions i.e. Sweden actually had to be ordered by the European Union to close any borders - and then Swedish media even made fun of our neighbouring countries like Denmark for being very restrictive of swedes entering into Denmark. And now Swedish media slowly more and more seem to promote vaccination is a must. 

In Australia, there was a small hardcore of vociferous people deriding the very effective methods we used here & promoting the "Swedish model" as the answer to the pandemic.
Thankfully, they were ignored, & we went with much more restrictive measures which worked.

AFAIK there is no firm evidence as to what aspect(s) of these "restrictive measures" were the major contributing factor that stopped it here.
Or that those measures will be as effective in other locations.
Basically "we did a bunch of stuff and something worked".
And given that there was no control experiment, you don't know if less harsh measures would have had the same result.

The idea that effective methods were "so damaging to the economy" that we should just "learn to live with a few thousand deaths" has been proven to be bullshit, as the economies in countries which did little or nothing to combat corona virus, resulting in massive hospitalisation (& deaths) have been hit just as hard, if not harder.

You don't actually know that wouldn't have happened anyway given that various circumstances are diferent in other countries and cities.

[vk6zgo]

I think in Sweden the swine flu was only really noticed by the media - if anyone actually had it they probably didn’t know it - at least not that it was that specific flu.

I clearly remember though how aggressive the vaccination campaign was - media even drew a picture - those who did not get vaccinated should not really expect to receive any other health care if they got sick.

This time with Covid though Swedish media was like - first they considerably downplayed the risk of it ever reaching us - then they were very reluctant to enforce any restrictions i.e. Sweden actually had to be ordered by the European Union to close any borders - and then Swedish media even made fun of our neighbouring countries like Denmark for being very restrictive of swedes entering into Denmark. And now Swedish media slowly more and more seem to promote vaccination is a must. 

In Australia, there was a small hardcore of vociferous people deriding the very effective methods we used here & promoting the "Swedish model" as the answer to the pandemic.
Thankfully, they were ignored, & we went with much more restrictive measures which worked.

AFAIK there is no firm evidence as to what aspect(s) of these "restrictive measures" were the major contributing factor that stopped it here.
Or that those measures will be as effective in other locations.
Basically "we did a bunch of stuff and something worked".
And given that there was no control experiment, you don't know if less harsh measures would have had the same result.

Well, the other countries where "all hell broke loose" were a pretty close approximation to a control experiment!

In WA, in particular, closing the State borders "hard" meant that the "lockdown" was less restrictive than other States as well as being substantially shorter.
We were able to return to very much closer to normality than was the case elsewhere in Australia.
Ok, we were perhaps fortunate in having a much less "porous" border, because most of our population lived a fair distance from our borders, as did those of SA & the NT.

The "bunch of stuff" we did was pretty much the same stuff which was effective against  the Spanish Flu in 1918/19, (although "effective" is relative with that incredibly virulent disease), &  in many pandemics over history.
Sometimes it is is best to stick to how things were done in the past, as they mostly worked!

The idea that effective methods were "so damaging to the economy" that we should just "learn to live with a few thousand deaths" has been proven to be bullshit, as the economies in countries which did little or nothing to combat corona virus, resulting in massive hospitalisation (& deaths) have been hit just as hard, if not harder.

You don't actually know that wouldn't have happened anyway given that various circumstances are diferent in other countries and cities.

Restrictive measures certainly did impact the economy, but "let 'er rip" would not have been beneficial either-------- sick people can't work, or buy stuff, plus it costs a lot of money to keep large numbers in hospital, even if most of them didn't die.

[EEVblog]

I think in Sweden the swine flu was only really noticed by the media - if anyone actually had it they probably didn’t know it - at least not that it was that specific flu.

I clearly remember though how aggressive the vaccination campaign was - media even drew a picture - those who did not get vaccinated should not really expect to receive any other health care if they got sick.

This time with Covid though Swedish media was like - first they considerably downplayed the risk of it ever reaching us - then they were very reluctant to enforce any restrictions i.e. Sweden actually had to be ordered by the European Union to close any borders - and then Swedish media even made fun of our neighbouring countries like Denmark for being very restrictive of swedes entering into Denmark. And now Swedish media slowly more and more seem to promote vaccination is a must. 

In Australia, there was a small hardcore of vociferous people deriding the very effective methods we used here & promoting the "Swedish model" as the answer to the pandemic.
Thankfully, they were ignored, & we went with much more restrictive measures which worked.

AFAIK there is no firm evidence as to what aspect(s) of these "restrictive measures" were the major contributing factor that stopped it here.
Or that those measures will be as effective in other locations.
Basically "we did a bunch of stuff and something worked".
And given that there was no control experiment, you don't know if less harsh measures would have had the same result.

Well, the other countries where "all hell broke loose" were a pretty close approximation to a control experiment!

No they are not, and this is the problem with how almost everyone analyises this, they ignore factors like poulation density, climate, culture etc, which surely have to play a large role, perhaps a dominate role in spread.
Sydney & Melbourne, our most dense cities barely scrape in the top 1000 list in the world
https://architectureau.com/articles/australian-cities-among-the-largest-and-least-densely-settled-in-the-world/

You simply can't say that other cities and countries are remotely close "controls" when you have population density off several orders of magnitude, and a climate that's radically different, not to mention other factors.

[wasyoungonce]

AFAIK there is no firm evidence as to what aspect(s) of these "restrictive measures" were the major contributing factor that stopped it here.
Or that those measures will be as effective in other locations.
Basically "we did a bunch of stuff and something worked".
And given that there was no control experiment, you don't know if less harsh measures would have had the same result.

Actually I disagree.  We had way to many citizens (Mainly city) going rouge doing the wrong things spreading the pandemic.  Disobeying travel and contact restrictions.  Just look at the rich tossers who bugged out of the state illegally travelling.  It’s deplorable.   This happened time and time again.  Certain sectors of society were worse than others. IMHO the only way to stop it was to come down like a hammer. 

The fact that we are now pandemic eradicated quicker than NSW is testament. NSW had the it floating around not quite zero cases till around 2 weeks ago (approx).  VIC was the same Months back but it got worse quickly  out of control.  VIC needed a major dose of tough love, quickly.   If we went like NSW, and it worked, out state would still have cases nor would any other state allow travel to us till fixed.  The quickest path to fix was isolation. People can argue the costs but I argue the costs not to we’re higher.  I saw many business doing very well under COVID-19 smaller business ...not so much.  Appears the federal government abandoned them

Pretty sure if you ask an economist they say suppression a dr will say isolation.  In any case it’s fluid we have eradicated it for the moment but it only take one slip up.  Luckily chances are low atm.

I did see, sadly, someone here in VIC just died from Covid19 complications months  after having it.  The amount of those who have major organ damage is a huge concern for their futures.

Well....that’s my daily rant....I feel better now

[EEVblog]

AFAIK there is no firm evidence as to what aspect(s) of these "restrictive measures" were the major contributing factor that stopped it here.
Or that those measures will be as effective in other locations.
Basically "we did a bunch of stuff and something worked".
And given that there was no control experiment, you don't know if less harsh measures would have had the same result.

Actually I disagree.

Then present the actual evidence.
My argument is that there was (obviously) no control experiment, and there are many variables involved, so it's just not possible to know what actual tangible effect the lockdowns had.

  We had way to many citizens (Mainly city) going rouge doing the wrong things spreading the pandemic.  Disobeying travel and contact restrictions.  Just look at the rich tossers who bugged out of the state illegally travelling.  It’s deplorable.   This happened time and time again.  Certain sectors of society were worse than others. IMHO the only way to stop it was to come down like a hammer. 

The fact that we are now pandemic eradicated quicker than NSW is testament. NSW had the it floating around not quite zero cases till around 2 weeks ago (approx).  VIC was the same Months back but it got worse quickly  out of control.  VIC needed a major dose of tough love, quickly.   If we went like NSW, and it worked, out state would still have cases nor would any other state allow travel to us till fixed.

You can't know that because there is no control experiment.
Remember, even during a strict lockdown approximately 30%-40% of the workforce is still out there travelling and doing essential work, you just don't see it, but society still has to tick over and keep those shelves stocked.
I'm not saying lockdown don't work, they obviously help, and in theory are hte ultimate way to stop the spread. But I'm just tired of people speaking in absolutes about it when the whole thing is a messy and complicated multi-variant analysis problem where lockdowns are only one piece of the puzzle. And unfortunately it's the piece of the puzzle with the highest cost to society.

[wasyoungonce]

Then present the actual evidence.
My argument is that there was (obviously) no control experiment, and there are many variables involved, so it's just not possible to know what actual tangible effect the lockdowns had.

Look I know you will disagree but the control is VIC.  It was clear of the pandemic (classed eradicated) before NSW yet was in a far far worse situation (case numbers) than NSW 4/5 months ago.  Yes it was hard but this is the ultimate control or comparison. Sure it's not a proper control ...good enough for me.

The issue we had was citizens not obeying social distancing or contact numbers which escalated the covid cases to out of control rapidly.  ....4 months later...pandemic classed eradicated. 

Look at the stage Victoria was in....there was no other way.   Restrictions were placed with a 2nd wave but they didn't work.   Thus we went to lockdown.  Which has worked.   Harsh but worked.  Oh daughters BF a machinist for ARB ....received bonuses during lockdown...business was booming.   Yes it true not all the state was locked down mainly just the city and not all workers.   One of my daughters is a federal statistician (crim stats) she had no problem working from home.   Small business....yeah they suffered badly.

Me...I can sit at home order parts have broken telescope controllers sent to me...fix...send back...I don't get out much!

FWIW....   Rightly or wrongly.

[james_s]

I think it's quite obvious the lockdowns worked here. It became so politicized in the US that some areas aggressively locked down while others didn't and the results have been predictable. Seattle was initially the epicenter but it was brought under control. Then just as one would expect, we had large spikes after holidays and all the various protests that took place over the summer and another large spike as we get into the winter holidays. You can also look at our politicians themselves, one side has been preaching caution while the other has been blowing it off. It's no surprise that dozens of prominent members of the latter side have been confirmed Covid cases while there have been none that I've seen reported on the other.

Unfortunately once things start to get under control people start to get careless and it doesn't seem to occur to them that at one point we had ONE confirmed case which exploded into a nationwide pandemic, so if we manage to get it down to an unrealistic level of ONE known infection it can explode just as quickly as it did the first time. Bottom line is that a vaccine is crucial to stopping it.

[nctnico]

In the end the term 'lockdown' is as descriptive as 'fruit basket'. You have to clearly define which fruits and how many before you can say something sensible about it. If you look at what governments are calling a lockdown you'll notice a lockdown can mean a wide mix of measures which ultimately try to keep people from mixing too much.

[Syntax Error]

This thread will become a moot point. Yah.

BBC News: Covid-19 Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine judged safe for use in UK
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55145696

That's right, a certified Covid19 vaccine for mass roll out.

British Government Health Secretary Matt Hancock said on the 2nd December in Parliament, "today is a triumph for all those who believe in science"

Believe in science

[nctnico]

Don't assume a vaccine is a total cure -not even for a second-. All the vaccine does is prepare the immune system for an attack. Less people will become seriously ill (and die) but there will still be a large number of casualties from Covid-19 in the next 12 months.  The difference is that health care systems are less likely to be swamped.

[DrG]

There are those that profess the opinion to not “hold out hope for an effective vaccine any time soon”. There are also those that claim that manufacturing a safe and effective vaccine takes “10+ years or more”. There are many other ways to diminish the impact of an effective vaccine.

We now have, at least two, effective mRNA vaccines, where, previously, we never had a single one for anything. As noted, British approval has already been granted and US (EU) approval is likely on the way in a matter of weeks. We have, likely, at least three more vaccines (using more conventional processes, e.g., viral vector) that will surface in the next few months.

In addition, we have, at least two, effective monoclonal antibody treatments (Lilly, Bamlanivimab, US EU approval; Regeneron, Casirivimab+ Imdevimab, US EU approval). The MCAs are effective, non-vaccine, treatments for before CoVid-19 sends you to the hospital.

What we are seeing, in my opinion, is the greatest accomplishment by worldwide medical science in my lifetime, and in an astoundingly short period of time. It has been our best hope to defeat the pandemic and our hope is being realized – nobody rationally believes it is solved overnight. It is not a question of a glass half empty or half full, it is that we have another glass and that makes me happier than a nerd with a new chip!