Author Topic: New Agilent scopes  (Read 328773 times)

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Offline Leo Bodnar

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #150 on: March 29, 2011, 12:32:05 pm »
the FPGA4000A seems to be common for both (no, it's not) or just copied by mistake (as there are no DSOX4000 DSOs available yet).
So Dave, when you will get the DSOX4000 ?
He already had it.  It just needed a $50,000 licence to unlock.  ;D

Offline SrS

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #151 on: March 29, 2011, 04:01:41 pm »
Hmm.. why would someone include a program (AgilentConfidential_SecureDataTool_DTD.exe) with this output in a public firmware upgrade?

Code: [Select]
DO NOT DISTRIBUTE THIS TOOL This tool is for Agilent internal order
fulfillment use only. DO NOT distribute this tool outside of Agilent
or to end-users. DO NOT install this tool on any instrument. Refer to
the CompactToolsUsersGuide.chm for detailed tool usage information.

CAUTION

LOSS OF LICENSE(S) IS POSSIBLE. Successfully executing of any of the
Initialize or Clear commands will delete all previously stored
instrument licenses from the instrument's License Store.

After initializing or changing a model number or serial number, it is
recommended that you reboot the instrument. Licensing calls may not
function correctly until you reboot.

DESCRIPTION

This tool sets the model number and serial number for an instrument
made by the Agilent division <client> listed in the tool name (for
example, CTD or SPD). This tool will not work with an instrument made
by any other Agilent division.

The Initialize-ModelNumber command (see CAUTION above) sets the
instrument model number only if the model number has not already been
initialized. If the model number has been initialized, executing this
command causes an error. (The Clear-ModelNumber command, described
below, will set the model number to an uninitialized state.)

The Initialize-SerialNumber command (see CAUTION above) sets the
instrument serial number only if the serial number has not already
been initialized. If the serial number has been initialized,
executing this command causes an error. (The Clear-SerialNumber
command, described below, will set the serial number to an
uninitialized state.)
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 05:38:15 pm by SrS »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #152 on: March 29, 2011, 06:02:33 pm »
Hmm.. why would someone include a program (AgilentConfidential_SecureDataTool_DTD.exe) with this output in a public firmware upgrade?
a) error
b) sneaky way to put people off the scent & waste hackers' time?
Whether or not this suddenly disappears may give a clue as to which...
Quote
this is what JTAG is for ... you should make a fw/NAND dump, use 14 days ... restore, use another 14 days .. only gues but probably it will work.
Assuming the license info is in there - it could be in battery-backed RAM. Or if they were being really sneaky, buried in the ASIC somehow.
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Online EEVblog

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #153 on: March 29, 2011, 08:52:59 pm »
So Dave, when you will get the DSOX4000 ?

Never heard of such a beast.

Dave.
 

Offline bandtank

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #154 on: March 29, 2011, 10:46:32 pm »
Where are you guys seeing the securedatatool.exe thing and the dll with the IsExpired functions? I downloaded the firmware and don't see either of those in the .cab file. I'd be willing to investigate a firmware "workaround" for the ridiculously priced features the scope is capable of if someone could push me in the right direction. Not being able to find the files makes it hard to get started.
 

Offline Leo Bodnar

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #155 on: March 29, 2011, 11:46:28 pm »
I am very confused.  Compare these two lists of option for MSOX3024A and DSOX3024A:
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?cc=GB&lc=eng&nid=-33573.970756&pageMode=OP
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?cc=GB&lc=eng&nid=-33573.970757&pageMode=OP

There are some differences between the options starting from the fact that they have completely different part numbers and finishing with e.g. MIL-STD-1553 serial decoding not being available for MSOX3000 model.  :-\


Few more interesting things from http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-6619EN.pdf

Compatible with PC offline viewing B4610A: http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?nid=-536902514.753489.00&lc=eng&cc=US

InfiniiVision 3000 X-Series bandwidth upgrade products (=unlock licences):
DSOX3BW32 (Bandwidth upgrade from 100 MHz to 350 MHz on 2 channel models),
DSOX3BW52 (Bandwidth upgrade from 350 MHz to 500 MHz on 2 channel models),
DSOX3BW24 (Bandwidth upgrade from 100 MHz to 200 MHz on 4 channel models),
DSOX3BW34 (Bandwidth upgrade from 200 MHz to 350 MHz on 4 channel models),
DSOX3BW54 (Bandwidth upgrade from 350 MHz to 500 MHz on 4 channel models).
 ??? Does this sound like cumulative upgrade from 100 to 500 is possible!?  
I thought somebody stated that 100 and 200MHz versions use different PCB from 350+ MHz models.

This is getting more and more interesting...
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 08:29:31 am by Leo Bodnar »
 

Offline SrS

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #156 on: March 30, 2011, 08:38:15 am »
True, but the whole board replacement sounds like an expensive method for a “fully upgradable scope” and what happens with the old board? The lower models also come with a different set of probes included.

Where are you guys seeing the securedatatool.exe thing

Inside the first .cab file you will find infiniiVisionSetup.cab. Extract this and read _setup.xml to find the original files names (just rename, no compression is used)

AGILEN~1.002 -> Agilent.Cdf.Api.dll
INFINI~1.017 -> infiniiVisionCore.dll

Open the infiniiVisionCore.dll with a resource editor like PE Explorer to extract the secure data tool. Agilent.Cdf.Api.dll seems to be where the license info is checked and has 2 1024 bit (public) keys. The private key of one can be found in the secure tool.

Code: [Select]
E: 0x10001
P: 57...
Q: vi...
N: rB.......
D: lv.......

Not going to dig any deeper, I don’t even have the scope. Maybe if I had a few beers before seeing Dave’s review I had one by now  ;D
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #157 on: March 30, 2011, 09:25:13 am »
InfiniiVision 3000 X-Series bandwidth upgrade products (=unlock licences):
DSOX3BW32 (Bandwidth upgrade from 100 MHz to 350 MHz on 2 channel models),
DSOX3BW52 (Bandwidth upgrade from 350 MHz to 500 MHz on 2 channel models),
DSOX3BW24 (Bandwidth upgrade from 100 MHz to 200 MHz on 4 channel models),
DSOX3BW34 (Bandwidth upgrade from 200 MHz to 350 MHz on 4 channel models),
DSOX3BW54 (Bandwidth upgrade from 350 MHz to 500 MHz on 4 channel models).
 ??? Does this sound like cumulative upgrade from 100 to 500 is possible!?  
I thought somebody stated that 100 and 200MHz versions use different PCB from 350+ MHz models.

I have it on the highest authority that the 350MHz/500MHz main board is different from the 100/200MHz model.
I believe you can "upgrade" from 100MHz to 500MHz, but you have to send the scope back and they will actually replace the main board.

Dave.
 

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #158 on: March 30, 2011, 09:29:56 am »
True, but the whole board replacement sounds like an expensive method for a “fully upgradable scope” and what happens with the old board? The lower models also come with a different set of probes included.

Correct, different probes.
Agilent actually expect few if any people to upgrade from the 100MHz to the 500MHz.
And few to even upgrade the software bandwidth options for that matter.
It's essentially a marketing gimmick designed to make you feel better that your scope can be upgraded.

Dave.
 

Offline Leo Bodnar

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #159 on: March 30, 2011, 04:51:05 pm »
I still have a problem justifying that essentially the same hardware is sold with fivefold price differential.

$3,380   for  DSOX3014A (100MHz 4ch basic model)
$18,000  for MSOX3054A (500MHz 4ch + 16 digital ch) with all crippleware options enabled  :o

This makes me think that the hardware manufacturing cost is probably about $1000.  I don't believe that DSOX3014 would be sold at a loss so let's assume it still makes Agilent some money.
But asking $15K for purely software options?! I don't believe this is justified.

I have a sneaky suspicion that 200MHz main board is not much different from 500MHz...
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 04:54:22 pm by Leo Bodnar »
 

Offline SrS

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #160 on: March 30, 2011, 06:23:51 pm »
A product is more than some components on a pcb, software doesn’t magically appear. Any idea how much money they put in the R&D of these things? If you compare the prices with others scope’s then its not expensive.

Also, the firmware doesn't have a BW35 option probably meaning 350Mhz is the minimum bandwidth for that board (just like Dave said):
enhTvTrig_3k
bw20_3k
bw50_3k
mso_3k
am4M_3k
MemMax_3k
fpgaProbe_3k
fpgaAltera_3k
lsSerDecode_3k
amSerDecode_3k
232SerDecode_3k
i2sSerDecode_3k
power_3k
distributor_3k
wavegen_3k
segmentedMem_3k
limitMask_3k

distributor_2k
education
wavegen_2k
segmentedMem_2k
limitMask_2k
bw10_2k
bw20_2k
enhTvTrig_2k
232SerDecode_2k
lsSerDecode_2k
amSerDecode_2k
i2sSerDecode_2k
mso_2k

Notice the serial decode options for the 2000 series
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 06:47:19 pm by SrS »
 

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #161 on: March 31, 2011, 01:06:40 am »
I still have a problem justifying that essentially the same hardware is sold with fivefold price differential.

$3,380   for  DSOX3014A (100MHz 4ch basic model)
$18,000  for MSOX3054A (500MHz 4ch + 16 digital ch) with all crippleware options enabled  :o

The 350/500MHz model uses a more expensive front end, so they aren't the same. You can only compare the 350MHz/4 channel DSO.
But yes, everything else is the same.
Even the 2000 series uses the exact same Megazoom and ADC ASIC as the 3000 (and technically has the same capabilities)

They have to recoup their massive R&D cost without wiping out the scaled market for scope capabilities (which would be bad for every manufacturer)

Dave.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #162 on: March 31, 2011, 08:40:10 am »
Even the 2000 series uses the exact same Megazoom and ADC ASIC as the 3000 (and technically has the same capabilities)
Not quite - the 3000 has a bigger FPGA. Can't see (until we see some high-res pics) if the SDRAM attatched to the ASIC is thet same size on the 2 models, though it's not entirely clear exactly what functionality either of the above are used for. 
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Offline Leo Bodnar

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #163 on: March 31, 2011, 08:44:37 am »
Not quite - the 3000 has a bigger FPGA. Can't see (until we see some high-res pics) if the SDRAM attatched to the ASIC is thet same size on the 2 models, though it's not entirely clear exactly what functionality either of the above are used for. 
I had a look inside one of the files in the update.  It had a code like this:
if x == 0 then s = "DS2000A"
else if x == 1 then s = "DS3000A"
else if x == 2 then s = "DS4000A"
else s = "DS0000A"
endif

Maybe something is cooking!

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #164 on: March 31, 2011, 09:38:52 am »
Not quite - the 3000 has a bigger FPGA. Can't see (until we see some high-res pics) if the SDRAM attatched to the ASIC is thet same size on the 2 models, though it's not entirely clear exactly what functionality either of the above are used for. 
I had a look inside one of the files in the update.  It had a code like this:
if x == 0 then s = "DS2000A"
else if x == 1 then s = "DS3000A"
else if x == 2 then s = "DS4000A"
else s = "DS0000A"
endif

Maybe something is cooking!
I wouldn't read too much into that - it could simply be that there is an in-house development platform with extra debug functions etc.
Although the new series replaces the 5000 and 6000 series, but not the 7000 which is very similar to the 6000, so maybe there is a 7000 replacement based on the new hardware in the works.
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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #165 on: March 31, 2011, 09:45:44 am »
Even the 2000 series uses the exact same Megazoom and ADC ASIC as the 3000 (and technically has the same capabilities)
Not quite - the 3000 has a bigger FPGA. Can't see (until we see some high-res pics) if the SDRAM attatched to the ASIC is thet same size on the 2 models, though it's not entirely clear exactly what functionality either of the above are used for. 

True, but the ASIC's are the same, and that's where most of the magic happens. The 2000 series is quite capable of 4M memory, 1000000wfm/s, serial decode etc on that ASIC.
Still not entirely sure what the FPGA or the other stuff does as you said.

Dave.
 

Offline SrS

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #166 on: March 31, 2011, 09:53:34 am »
The bin 3k & 4k bin files are double the size of the 2k FPGA so changing your model the a higher board might make your scope unusable. Same when you try to trick the 2 ch version in thinking it has 4 channels.

Can anyone with a scope verify if it has a FTP server running?

Ohw and it looks like there is a 1GHz with 5GSa model :)
 

Offline tinhead

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #167 on: March 31, 2011, 12:17:40 pm »
unfortunately i don't have such DSO here so can't play arround. A EVALSPEAr600 boards costs 1800USD, that's too much.
Custom 4-6 layer board with SPEAr600, NAND/NOT/EEPROM would costs much less, the SoC costs only 20USD.
A full backup of NAND/NOR/EEPROM (yes, there is eeprom on the DSO board with important informations) could work
on such DIY SPEAr600 board - the question is who will start to play on real DSO or at least on a SPEAr600 dev board.
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Offline Leo Bodnar

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #168 on: April 01, 2011, 12:33:24 pm »
Getting 14 day trial licence turned out to be trivial. 

You fill in online form with your details, scope model and S/N and licence arrives via e-mail in a few minutes.

Offline SrS

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #169 on: April 01, 2011, 02:45:49 pm »
Game over, someone made a big mistake including the securedata tool ;)
 

Offline dimlow

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #170 on: April 01, 2011, 03:34:18 pm »
Game over, someone made a big mistake including the securedata tool ;)

Tell us more, I may have to go buy one now.
 

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #171 on: April 01, 2011, 07:33:32 pm »
I think the issue with the waveform generator is mainly the price/perfomance ratio, you can buy a pretty good stand-alone function generator for the $400 or so they charge for it, probably with more features.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #172 on: April 01, 2011, 07:37:08 pm »
Game over, someone made a big mistake including the securedata tool ;)

Tell us more, I may have to go buy one now.

I was about to buy a 3000 series, but I'm going to hold off until he finishes that thought.

Of course if there is a potential 'issue' with scopes already at dealers, that might be exactly the wrong thing to do....  ;)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 07:39:28 pm by mikeselectricstuff »
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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #173 on: April 01, 2011, 11:22:51 pm »
I think the issue with the waveform generator is mainly the price/perfomance ratio, you can buy a pretty good stand-alone function generator for the $400 or so they charge for it, probably with more features.

Yes, it's more a value for money thing.
It only lacks ARB and external/internal modulation capability.
Apart from that, I love the convenience of it, and it works great.

Dave.
 

Offline grenert

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #174 on: April 02, 2011, 12:23:38 am »
Still, for that kind of money (and even more - for the same generator - in the 3000 series), you'd think they could include a sweep function.  Geez  ::)
 


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