EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: mikeselectricstuff on February 15, 2011, 11:17:27 am
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I've had an MSO6000 since it came out - looks like they are basically pushing the features from this range downmarket. Don't know why they have chaged from VXWorks to WinCE - maybe the VXWorks license cost was too high. At least WinCE may make it easier for someone to hack the license crippleware!
Why 70MHz version ? So Agilent can advertise a low entry cost product that nobody will actually buy.
Similarly LAN and VGA as options , although I think this was as much about providing a GPIB option as anything else as they;d be stupid to include GPIB as standard. However they have a USB host port on the back so they could have provided GPIB via an adapter into that.
Segmented memory "on a $1000 scope" = 'fraid not - this is an option. Ditto mask test.
Why no ground coupling? - there is a ground level mark on the side of the screen so you don't really need it.
Are you sure there isn't a hardware counter - the 5/6000 has it but it is a seperate measurement labelled 'counter'. You can even feed in an external ref freq for mode accuracy.
I hope they've made the upgrade process more streamlined. Here's what happenned when I upgraded the memory on mine :
Make enquiry on website. Get email asking to phone UK sales rep. Takes 2 days to finally get in touch. Had to fax order to them. A week later received Fedexed piece of paper from USA containing a number that then needs entering into their website to get the licence key. What a joke. AFAIK they;ve now moved all their UK sales to independent distributors - had to get a quote via them recently when I wanted to know how much serial decode costed (too much!), so I'd be very surprised if it's as simple as it should be, i.e. immediate online purchase.
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I've had an MSO6000 since it came out - looks like they are basically pushing the features from this range downmarket. Don't know why they have chaged from VXWorks to WinCE - maybe the VXWorks license cost was too high. At least WinCE may make it easier for someone to hack the license crippleware!
Why 70MHz version ? So Agilent can advertise a low entry cost product that nobody will actually buy.
Maybe, but there is not a huge difference between 70MHz and 100MHz in a practical sense, so if you need the scope for say it's fast update rate but not it's bandwidth, you'd just buy the cheaper one.
Similarly LAN and VGA as options , although I think this was as much about providing a GPIB option as anything else as they;d be stupid to include GPIB as standard. However they have a USB host port on the back so they could have provided GPIB via an adapter into that.
Segmented memory "on a $1000 scope" = 'fraid not - this is an option. Ditto mask test.
Yes, sorry, forgot to mention that.
I really meant "a $1000 class" scope, i.e. under $1xxx
Not sure how much those software options cost.
Maybe you can do deals with your Agilent Rep to get them to throw in one of those options to sweeten the deal? Dunno.
Are you sure there isn't a hardware counter
Yep.
I hope they've made the upgrade process more streamlined. Here's what happenned when I upgraded the memory on mine :
Make enquiry on website. Get email asking to phone UK sales rep. Takes 2 days to finally get in touch. Had to fax order to them. A week later received Fedexed piece of paper from USA containing a number that then needs entering into their website to get the licence key. What a joke. AFAIK they;ve now moved all their UK sales to independent distributors - had to get a quote via them recently when I wanted to know how much serial decode costed (too much!), so I'd be very surprised if it's as simple as it should be, i.e. immediate online purchase.
I had no details on the software update process, and have not tried it.
Dave.
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Why 70MHz version ? So Agilent can advertise a low entry cost product that nobody will actually buy.
Maybe, but there is not a huge difference between 70MHz and 100MHz in a practical sense, so if you need the scope for say it's fast update rate but not it's bandwidth, you'd just buy the cheaper one.
Absolutely agree about the fast update rate and it's exciting they are bringing this to the lower end of the market - fast update and intensity display are what makes a digital scope a real replacement for an analogue one.
However I think the cost difference between 70M and 100M would be interesting to see - it makes no sense whatsoever technically, so can only be a marketing ploy, to provide an apparently low entry cost, and my guess is that upgrading to a more decent spec will make it look a lot less price competitive.
Maybe someone should ask for some quotes and post them here...
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The only pricing I got was the lowest and highest end, so I don't know just what the 100MHz option costs on it's own.
Agilent - "Any colour you like, as long as it's optional"!
Dave.
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So we should look to buy one before they do hardware revisions to stop the free upgrade firmware? :P
Personally I really hate software unlocks (like games that come with "additional content" that is already on the disc and is really just stuff cut out of the final game) and arbitrary restrictions so as to not annoy other divisions of a company. I mean a pre-defined function generator for $400 isn't really exciting. Allowing it to do arbitrary functions is what ties that function in with the rest of the o-scope instead of it being like something duct taped to the side of the case.
EDIT: I loved the bit at the end of the teardown where you put it back together dave. In the middle of the video I was thinking "and how many hours did it take him to put it back together". And I didn't even notice any spare screws!
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Also good to see the standard warranty for the lowest model has increased from 12 months to three years.
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until today Hantek/Tekway DSO was my favorite low end DSO.
As a Hantek/Tekway friend i would say - for sure the 2500wfrms/s are not comparable
to 50k on Agilent, but still better as on all others low end DSOs on the market.
Of course they a 3 times cheaper (and hackable) and the core functionality is very comparable
too (except function Generator and teaching stuff), but for someone having at least 1k USD budget
the new Agilent is definitely the best choice from all DSOs up to 5k USD.
The modules are bit expensive (i did found pricing on a german distibutor page, but not for bw expand), but that's typical for Agilent anyway.
Even the full 200MHz model with all modules enabled is still cheap (if you compare what it can to what you will get from others),
so yeah, i love it too!
Rigol's new CA series costs almost the same, but if you look on the wfrms/s yuo will definitely chose Agilent,
probably Rigol ppl are a bit pissed off now - the former "partner" Agilent fooled them.
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Since Dave can't tell the prices, here some I've found today in Germany:
DSOX2002A , 70Mhz, 2 Channel: EUR 1000 + VAT
DSOX2004A , 70Mhz, 4 Channel: EUR 1500 + VAT
DSOX2012A , 100Mhz, 2 Channel: EUR 1200 + VAT
DSOX2014A , 100Mhz, 4 Channel: EUR 1800 + VAT
DSOX2022A , 200Mhz, 2 Channel: EUR 1750 + VAT
DSOX2024A , 200Mhz, 4 Channel: EUR 2120 + VAT
MSOX2002A , 70Mhz, 2 Channel + 8 channel logic: EUR 1550 + VAT
MSOX2004A , 70Mhz, 4 Channel + 8 channel logic: EUR 2100 + VAT
MSOX2012A , 100Mhz, 2 Channel + 8 channel logic: EUR 1800 + VAT
MSOX2014A , 100Mhz, 4 Channel + 8 channel logic: EUR 2350 + VAT
MSOX2022A , 200Mhz, 2 Channel + 8 channel logic: EUR 2300 + VAT
MSOX2024A , 200Mhz, 4 Channel + 8 channel logic: EUR 2700 + VAT
Waveform generator option X2000 series: EUR 400 + VAT
Mask test option X2000 series: EUR 250 + VAT
Segmented memory option X2000 series: EUR 250 + VAT
Ethernet / VGA module X2000 series: EUR 320 + VAT
GPIB module X2000 series: EUR 400 + VAT
MSO upgrade DSOX2000 series: EUR 570 + VAT
A Very Interresting find:
"Training Kit Education" option DSOX2000 series: EUR 400 + VAT
This is actually Daves beloved help function. So if you want it, you have to buy it.
So the reviewed scope comes out at a current Retail price of 4320 Euro + VAT or about 4.5 times the entry price. Maybe subject to an additional "everything and the kitchen sink" discount.
Which is ok, but I think that there should have been less emphasis on the "70Mhz, 2 Channel, without anything" price of about $1200. Or rather more emphais on the fact that the review is about the fully souped up version.
Just for giggles and as a reference for future price changes, x3000 series prices:
DSOX3012A , 100Mhz, 2 Channel: EUR 2370 + VAT
DSOX3014A , 100Mhz, 4 Channel: EUR 2740 + VAT
DSOX3024A , 200Mhz, 4 Channel: EUR 3300 + VAT
DSOX3032A , 350Mhz, 2 Channel: EUR 5200 + VAT
DSOX3034A , 350Mhz, 4 Channel: EUR 6200 + VAT
DSOX3052A , 500Mhz, 2 Channel: EUR 6500 + VAT
DSOX3054A , 500Mhz, 4 Channel: EUR 8450 + VAT
MSOX3012A , 100Mhz, 2 Channel + 16 channel logic: EUR 3200 + VAT
MSOX3014A , 100Mhz, 4 Channel + 16 channel logic: EUR 3670 + VAT
MSOX3024A , 200Mhz, 4 Channel + 16 channel logic: EUR 4200 + VAT
MSOX3032A , 350Mhz, 2 Channel + 16 channel logic: EUR 6100 + VAT
MSOX3034A , 350Mhz, 4 Channel + 16 channel logic: EUR 7150 + VAT
MSOX3052A , 500Mhz, 2 Channel + 16 channel logic: EUR 7400 + VAT
MSOX3054A , 500Mhz, 4 Channel + 16 channel logic: EUR 9400 + VAT
Ethernet / VGA module X3000 series: EUR 320 + VAT
GPIB module X3000 series: EUR 400 + VAT
MSO upgrade DSOX3000 series: EUR 930 + VAT
Waveform generator option X3000 series
Mask test option X3000 series
Segmented memory option X3000 series
Computer Serial Trigger und Analyse (RS232/422/485/UART) option X3000 series
Automotive Serial Trigger und Analyse (CAN/LIN) option X3000 series
Embedded Serial Trigger und Analyse (I2C,SPI) option X3000 series
Audio Serial Trigger und Analyse (I2S) option X3000 series
for EUR 580 + VAT, each.
4Mpts memory expansion option X3000 series: EUR 400 + VAT
"Training Kit Education" option DSOX3000 series: EUR 400 + VAT
Not too bad either, but the heap of serial protocol triggers stinks, especially since they are not that cheap.
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A Very Interresting find:
"Training Kit Education" option DSOX2000 series: EUR 400 + VAT
This is actually Daves beloved help function. So if you want it, you have to buy it.
few hrs ago it was listed as free if you buy until August 2011 from a Education pool (so yes, not for everyone free).
The Eductation pool price is anyway much lower, so definitely a really good choise for students/schools.
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It is free - if you happen to be an university or school.
As in institution, Students do not qualify for this. Well, unless you call them up and get a different deal.
few hrs ago it was listed as free if you buy until August 2011 from a Education pool (so yes, not for everyone free).
The Eductation pool price is anyway much lower, so definitely a really good choise for students/schools.
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Dave - have you opened up the VGA/LAN module yet?- would be interesting to see how much is actually in there!
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Computer Serial Trigger und Analyse (RS232/422/485/UART) option X3000 series
for EUR 580 + VAT, each.
That's about half the cost for this option on the old 6000 series - don't suppose for a minute they'll reduce the old ones to match though...
Just imagine the impact they'd make in the scope market if they threw all the options in at the entry cost...!
BTW - did you take any high-res pics of the boards? If not, can you do some if you take a 3000 apart?
Also, re. the differential lines to both ASICs - I'd guess one set is for signal and the other for trigger.
From the change in sample rates you saw it looks like they've done the same as on the older series - muxed each channel pair, so on the 4-channel model you should get full speed on 2 channels if you use Ch1 & 3.
Ethernet / VGA module X3000 series: EUR 320 + VAT
That's odd - according to the user manual (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/75019-97013.pdf), its standard on the 3000 series
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That's about half the cost for this option on the old 6000 series - don't suppose for a minute they'll reduce the old ones to match though...
Just imagine the waves they'd make in the scope market if they threw all the options in at the entry cost...!
Thats pretty much depending on what they actually throw in, or how they price them differently if you buy multiple options.
The way it currently is it is just a huge invitation for firmware hacks especially since the units are actually physically the same and fully up to spec. (Otherwise you could not upgrade any unit.)
The only thing you can not update via firmware are additional channels (there are only 2 on the 2 channel version) and the Ethernet/VGA and GPIB module.
It would be even more funny if you could introduce parts of x3000 series into the x2000 series. But to answer that someone would have to take a really close look at the hardware and the software. (Same boards but different parts is after all an option.)
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That's about half the cost for this option on the old 6000 series - don't suppose for a minute they'll reduce the old ones to match though...
Just imagine the waves they'd make in the scope market if they threw all the options in at the entry cost...!
Thats pretty much depending on what they actually throw in, or how they price them differently if you buy multiple options.
The way it currently is it is just a huge invitation for firmware hacks especially since the units are actually physically the same and fully up to spec. (Otherwise you could not upgrade any unit.)
The only thing you can not update via firmware are additional channels (there are only 2 on the 2 channel version) and the Ethernet/VGA and GPIB module.
Wouldn't surprise me if that's just a board with standard peripheral chips on - haven't checked if the ARM they use has onboard ethernet, but if it has, the LAN part could be little more than a mag-jack
It would be even more funny if you could introduce parts of x3000 series into the x2000 series. But to answer that someone would have to take a really close look at the hardware and the software. (Same boards but different parts is after all an option.)
Reading through the user manuals, there do appear to be significant differences in the 2000 vs. 3000 hardware. The 3000 has a hardware frequency counter, a lot more memory, higher bandwidth and more MSO inputs.
Agilent use hardware acceleration for their protocol decode, which may explain the lack of it on the 2000 - a particularly poor decision IMO as you don't need a high bandwidth scope to be doing the sort of work for which protocol analysis would be useful.
Wouldn't surprise me if the 3000 has a bigger FPGA inside to add these features - my MSO6000 has a Spartan 3S1000, compared to the 3S500 in the 2000. Could still be the same PCB but likely to be differently populated.
The waveform generator is oddly very basic (I wonder if that's what all those LM324's are doing..!) A blatently obvious omission is a sweep capability - this would seem to be a no-brainer for anyone integrating a sig-gen into a scope, for frequency response testing. The only integration appears to be the ability to trigger from it.
I really can't see any point in this feature, except maybe for the education market - you can buy a better sig-gen for less money than the upgrade!
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Thats pretty much depending on what they actually throw in, or how they price them differently if you buy multiple options.
The way it currently is it is just a huge invitation for firmware hacks especially since the units are actually physically the same and fully up to spec. (Otherwise you could not upgrade any unit.)
The only thing you can not update via firmware are additional channels (there are only 2 on the 2 channel version) and the Ethernet/VGA and GPIB module.
not exactly, for bw update you have to send the DSO to Agilent service because they will have to replace the mainboard :
http://www.elektroniknet.de/messen-testen/produkte/messgeraete/article/75424/1/Mehr_Scope_fuer_weniger_Geld/ (http://www.elektroniknet.de/messen-testen/produkte/messgeraete/article/75424/1/Mehr_Scope_fuer_weniger_Geld/)
So "only" MSO, WaveGen and soft modules can be enabled by code/hack.
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The waveform generator is oddly very basic (I wonder if that's what all those LM324's are doing..!) A blatently obvious omission is a sweep capability - this would seem to be a no-brainer for anyone integrating a sig-gen into a scope, for frequency response testing. The only integration appears to be the ability to trigger from it.
I really can't see any point in this feature, except maybe for the education market - you can buy a better sig-gen for less money than the upgrade!
I'd spell it: "Future upgrades".
The function generator is on the very bottom line of functionality, and i doubt that the "Training Kit" uses it's own hardware to generate the signals...
no exactly, for bw update you have to send the DSO to Agilent back because they will have to replace the mainboard :
Aw, ok. Seemed to be different judging from the review.
So "only" MSO, WaveGen and soft modules can be enabled by code/hack.
Which are not that functional (function generator) and/or have a steep price-point compared to stand alone products.
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So do they not carry the 500 MHz infiniium anymore (my favorite scope I have used thus far)? Is the 3000 level its replacement?
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I'm ready to buy one !
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So do they not carry the 500 MHz infiniium anymore (my favorite scope I have used thus far)? Is the 3000 level its replacement?
From what's shown on the website, 3000 seems to be replacing 5000 and 6000, but not the 7000. One 'downgrade' is the 6000 had 8M memory, the 3000 only 4M max, but when you get that high the difference is less of an issue.
A bit surprised about the WinCE sticker (unless its an MS requirement) - I'd have thought this would put some people off, and certainly not make anyone buy because of it!
for bw update you have to send the DSO to Agilent back because they will have to replace the mainboard
Which makes the 70M version seem all the more ridiculous. I wouldn't be surprised to see this get quietly dropped in a while when all the fuss has died down...
I'm ready to buy one !
Well the Agilent site claims Farnell have them in stock. The Farnell website doesn't seem to agree though - maybe they're in transit, or Farnell are slow at updating their site - if you're keen it may be worth giving them a call - I can see the initial ones moving pretty quick...
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but for someone having at least 1k USD budget
the new Agilent is definitely the best choice from all DSOs up to 5k USD.
I'd have to concur with that. It seems Agilent have really sewn up that market segment. Until the others try and pip them.
Tektronix have a 40% off sale right now!
http://conversation.fuseinsight.com/topic/serv/tW5wHvYYQZ0UtF1yFB-klXw8wNhQ2oKCmS08KNeZFpielX8_ZpA1iuXwahgWTdH5sqvgvHopiPhSuKw83O2a-k45CIT6YbUTzZf6LW9n_go./html/intro (http://conversation.fuseinsight.com/topic/serv/tW5wHvYYQZ0UtF1yFB-klXw8wNhQ2oKCmS08KNeZFpielX8_ZpA1iuXwahgWTdH5sqvgvHopiPhSuKw83O2a-k45CIT6YbUTzZf6LW9n_go./html/intro)
The modules are bit expensive (i did found pricing on a german distibutor page, but not for bw expand), but that's typical for Agilent anyway.
Even the full 200MHz model with all modules enabled is still cheap (if you compare what it can to what you will get from others),
so yeah, i love it too!
Rigol's new CA series costs almost the same, but if you look on the wfrms/s yuo will definitely chose Agilent,
probably Rigol ppl are a bit pissed off now - the former "partner" Agilent fooled them.
The likes of Rigol can't match this technology, and they know it, they just don't have the R&D capability and funding that Agilent do.
Dave.
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Dave - have you opened up the VGA/LAN module yet?- would be interesting to see how much is actually in there!
Was going to do that, but completely forgot in the haste!
Dave.
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Computer Serial Trigger und Analyse (RS232/422/485/UART) option X3000 series
for EUR 580 + VAT, each.
That's about half the cost for this option on the old 6000 series - don't suppose for a minute they'll reduce the old ones to match though...
Just imagine the impact they'd make in the scope market if they threw all the options in at the entry cost...!
They could, and still make a profit. But they aren't stupid, that would ruin the huge profit margin on upgraded units and ruin the market for them and their competition. I guess it's kind of an unwritten rule that the biggies know not to piss in their own pool.
BTW - did you take any high-res pics of the boards? If not, can you do some if you take a 3000 apart?
I did. Will have to post them soon.
Dave.
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Which is ok, but I think that there should have been less emphasis on the "70Mhz, 2 Channel, without anything" price of about $1200. Or rather more emphais on the fact that the review is about the fully souped up version.
I disagree. The exciting part IMO is that you can get this update rate and performance for $1200.
You've always had to pay for bandwidth and options, nothing new there.
The base model 70MHz unit is an amazingly useful scope in it's own right.
Everyone wants something for nothing. Go and try and buy a 4 channel 200MHz Rigol and see how much you have to pay. Hint, it's more than 4 times the base Rigol price.
Dave.
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not exactly, for bw update you have to send the DSO to Agilent service because they will have to replace the mainboard :
http://www.elektroniknet.de/messen-testen/produkte/messgeraete/article/75424/1/Mehr_Scope_fuer_weniger_Geld/ (http://www.elektroniknet.de/messen-testen/produkte/messgeraete/article/75424/1/Mehr_Scope_fuer_weniger_Geld/)
So "only" MSO, WaveGen and soft modules can be enabled by code/hack.
I'm pretty certain that's not correct. I was lead to believe the bandwidth was upgradeable via license.
Dave.
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Steve Leibson has a nice article on the new scopes:
http://eda360insider.wordpress.com/2011/02/15/agilent-knocks-one-out-of-the-park-with-new-low-cost-line-of-digital-scopes%E2%80%94a-very-competitive-entry-into-the-low-end-dso-market-and-a-perfect-example-of-eda360-design-using-end-to-end-design (http://eda360insider.wordpress.com/2011/02/15/agilent-knocks-one-out-of-the-park-with-new-low-cost-line-of-digital-scopes%E2%80%94a-very-competitive-entry-into-the-low-end-dso-market-and-a-perfect-example-of-eda360-design-using-end-to-end-design)
Dave.
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not exactly, for bw update you have to send the DSO to Agilent service because they will have to replace the mainboard :
http://www.elektroniknet.de/messen-testen/produkte/messgeraete/article/75424/1/Mehr_Scope_fuer_weniger_Geld/ (http://www.elektroniknet.de/messen-testen/produkte/messgeraete/article/75424/1/Mehr_Scope_fuer_weniger_Geld/)
So "only" MSO, WaveGen and soft modules can be enabled by code/hack.
I'm pretty certain that's not correct. I was lead to believe the bandwidth was upgradeable via license.
Dave.
the information comes from Agilent European Product Line Manager but of course maybe
he misunderstood something or was misunderstood by the press ppl.
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Incredible review; as always Dave definitely has an eye for camera, presentation, content and wit. I watched it at high speed, so now will have to rewatch it to get the details. Highly recommended.
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Incredible review; as always Dave definitely has an eye for camera, presentation, content and wit. I watched it at high speed, so now will have to rewatch it to get the details. Highly recommended.
I agree. Maybe Dave's best review ever, really.
Mark Z.
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not exactly, for bw update you have to send the DSO to Agilent service because they will have to replace the mainboard :
http://www.elektroniknet.de/messen-testen/produkte/messgeraete/article/75424/1/Mehr_Scope_fuer_weniger_Geld/ (http://www.elektroniknet.de/messen-testen/produkte/messgeraete/article/75424/1/Mehr_Scope_fuer_weniger_Geld/)
So "only" MSO, WaveGen and soft modules can be enabled by code/hack.
I'm pretty certain that's not correct. I was lead to believe the bandwidth was upgradeable via license.
Dave.
I spent quite a while looking through the Agilent site, and I think it is a return-to-base upgrade as nowhere does it state otherwise.
For example
Segmented memory upgrade (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?cc=GB&lc=eng&ckey=1952332&nid=-35491.970773.00&id=1952332&pselect=SR.GENERAL) shown as available via distributors,
but Bandwidth upgrade (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?cc=GB&lc=eng&ckey=1954194&nid=-33560.970759.00&id=1954194&pselect=SR.GENERAL) from Agilent only.
The user manual also makes no mention of bandwidth upgrades.
A quick way to check Dave - somewhere in the service menu there is probably a list of installed licenses - see if there is a bandwidth license shown in there.
Another possibility is that they haven't yet decided - maybe they can make all 2000 scopes as 200MHz and cripple them, but at a higher build cost, and are waiting to see the sales breakdown to decide which way to go. Or it could even be that they are waiting to see the yield on the silicon to see if it's viable to make them all full bandwidth.
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Is WinCE an RTOS? Maybe they dropped VXWorks because the new chipset they are using. Powerful enough to make an RTOS unnecessary.
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A quick way to check Dave - somewhere in the service menu there is probably a list of installed licenses - see if there is a bandwidth license shown in there.
It's in the video. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can tell us what the licenses refer to.
(http://i.imgur.com/ARr0n.png)
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Wikipedia says WinCE is an RTOS.
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A quick way to check Dave - somewhere in the service menu there is probably a list of installed licenses - see if there is a bandwidth license shown in there.
It's in the video. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can tell us what the licenses refer to.
(http://i.imgur.com/ARr0n.png)
MSO mixed signal, SGM segmented memory, LMT mask/limit test, BW20 200MHz BW, WGN Waveform gen.
The vagueness on the Agilent site does seem to suggest there may be a little more to it though. Or maybe they just don't want to make it too obvious that the base model is crippleware.
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Is WinCE an RTOS? Maybe they dropped VXWorks because the new chipset they are using. Powerful enough to make an RTOS unnecessary.
They don't need an RTOS because the processor isn't really doing much. All the important stuff is in the ASIC.
Dave.
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according to http://www.testequity.com/products/3763/, (http://www.testequity.com/products/3763/,) there are both MSO and DSO models. I imagine that changing the model number would not be a software toggle (although the rigols beg to differ ;) ).
In the video, dave noticed that only 8 channels worth of hardware was soldered down, perhaps the DSO version has no ICs at all on the digital interface.
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according to http://www.testequity.com/products/3763/, (http://www.testequity.com/products/3763/,) there are both MSO and DSO models. I imagine that changing the model number would not be a software toggle (although the rigols beg to differ ;) ).
In the video, dave noticed that only 8 channels worth of hardware was soldered down, perhaps the DSO version has no ICs at all on the digital interface.
The user manual (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/75015-97011.pdf)p.258 states it's a license upgrade - the MSO hardware looks like minimal cost on this one - just some comparators - the older 6000 series used ASICs for the MSO function - looks like this has been integrated into the other chipset on the new ones.
BTW spotted UK list pricing on Aspen's site :
http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=2000X-Oscilloscope (http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=2000X-Oscilloscope)
http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=3000X-Oscilloscope (http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=3000X-Oscilloscope)
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BTW spotted UK list pricing on Aspen's site :
http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=2000X-Oscilloscope (http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=2000X-Oscilloscope)
http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=3000X-Oscilloscope (http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=3000X-Oscilloscope)
and from that supplier: "Get more investment protection with the industry’s only fully upgradeable scope, including bandwidth!!"
Dave, feel like giving your Agilent contact a call for us all ? ;D
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Is WinCE an RTOS? Maybe they dropped VXWorks because the new chipset they are using. Powerful enough to make an RTOS unnecessary.
They don't need an RTOS because the processor isn't really doing much. All the important stuff is in the ASIC.
Dave.
(http://www.eetimes.com/ContentEETimes/Images/Design/TestMeasureDL/2011-02-15_crh_agilent_infini_2000_3000_2.jpg)
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Is WinCE an RTOS? Maybe they dropped VXWorks because the new chipset they are using. Powerful enough to make an RTOS unnecessary.
They don't need an RTOS because the processor isn't really doing much. All the important stuff is in the ASIC.
Dave.
Is anything known about those ASICs? Architecture, die size, nanometers etc.
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Is WinCE an RTOS? Maybe they dropped VXWorks because the new chipset they are using. Powerful enough to make an RTOS unnecessary.
They don't need an RTOS because the processor isn't really doing much. All the important stuff is in the ASIC.
Dave.
Is anything known about those ASICs? Architecture, die size, nanometers etc.
90nm, ~6M gates. http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4213152/Agilent-uses-new-ASIC-in-MSO-market-attack (http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4213152/Agilent-uses-new-ASIC-in-MSO-market-attack)
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probably Rigol ppl are a bit pissed off now - the former "partner" Agilent fooled them.
Rigol also got a lot out of that old deal. The Agilent deal was what distinguished them from all the other Chinese T&M manufacturers. It put Rigol on the map "If they are good enough for Agilent they are maybe good enough for me, too.".
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BTW spotted UK list pricing on Aspen's site :
http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=2000X-Oscilloscope (http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=2000X-Oscilloscope)
http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=3000X-Oscilloscope (http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=3000X-Oscilloscope)
and from that supplier: "Get more investment protection with the industry’s only fully upgradeable scope, including bandwidth!!"
Dave, feel like giving your Agilent contact a call for us all ? ;D
I don't know what all the speculation is about, there is no mystery.
The base model unit comes with the waveform gen, the logic analyzer, and the 200MHz built-in. They are enabled by software license keys you get when you buy the option from the Agilent website or dealer. They are advertising this to the hilt and are not trying to hide it.
Agilent have assured me of this.
In the case of the logic analyser they will ship you the probes when you buy that option, along with the code to enabled it.
The only difference which I didn't now about when shooting the video was that the 2 channel version is actually only 2 channels and can't be upgraded unless they actually swapped the board, which I'm reasonably certain is not an option.
I am not sure how the enable code system works, I just know that you are given a code when you buy the option and you enable it yourself.
Dave.
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A few tidbits:
On the teardown video, I notice test points for VP1V4_TALON and VP3V3D_TALON. We had a 6000 series scope fail at work, giving an error code about failing Talon autocalibration. Perhaps Talon is an internal codename for the ASIC. (The scope was just a week or two out of warranty, and luckily Agilent agreed to cover the repair (new mainboard), which would have cost probably $5k or more!)
The lack of a hardware frequency counter seems to coincide with the lack of equivalent time sampling. The frequency counter works by looking at the output of the trigger comparator, not the ADC result. The problem with not having equivalent time sampling is trigger jitter. If you measure a fast risetime signal (a risetime of perhaps a few sample periods), it will appear to jump around somewhat, +/- 1/2 the sample period. This is because the scope can only trigger on the sampling clock, whereas in real life the time the signal crosses the trigger threshold can be between sample clocks. Equivalent time sampling basically tells the scope what phase the sample clock is relative to the trigger, with extremely high accuracy, in the tens of picoseconds range. The display system must then shift all the sampled points by this amount. This removes the +/- 1/2 sample period jitter. If you're making high speed jitter measurements this is critical. The Tek 4000 series scopes lack equivalent time sampling too, but those those are high end, the base model is $10k!!
The internal function generator must be Arb capable, many of the demo waveforms require it.
David
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The lack of a hardware frequency counter seems to coincide with the lack of equivalent time sampling.
The 3000 series does have a hardware counter - may be worth a look through the user manual (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/redirector.jspx?action=ref&cname=AGILENT_EDITORIAL&ckey=2014466&lc=eng&cc=GB&nfr=-33573.0.00) to see if there is a difference in sampling.
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That's good to know. I also find it amusing how the scope he had for review failed. Ah well, that's the tech world. Stuff happens.
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there is no mystery.
The base model unit comes with the waveform gen, the logic analyzer, and the 200MHz built-in. They are enabled by software license keys you get when you buy the option from the Agilent website or dealer. They are advertising this to the hilt and are not trying to hide it.
Agilent have assured me of this.
If not mystery there does still seem to be a little doubt & confusion - unlike other upgrades, I have found nothing on the Agilent site or the user manuals that explicitly says BW is just a license upgrade, and the BW upgrades are listed as via Agilent only, unlike the other license upgrades. It could just be some internal confusion or mis-communication. Another possibility might be that BW change requires recalibration, or they've not yet tested sufficiently to be sure that it doesn't. Or they've not decided if it's worth the time to calibrate at all bandwidths in production to allow the right data to be used if it gets subsequently upgraded.
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but for someone having at least 1k USD budget
the new Agilent is definitely the best choice from all DSOs up to 5k USD.
I'd have to concur with that. It seems Agilent have really sewn up that market segment. Until the others try and pip them.
Tektronix have a 40% off sale right now!
http://conversation.fuseinsight.com/topic/serv/tW5wHvYYQZ0UtF1yFB-klXw8wNhQ2oKCmS08KNeZFpielX8_ZpA1iuXwahgWTdH5sqvgvHopiPhSuKw83O2a-k45CIT6YbUTzZf6LW9n_go./html/intro (http://conversation.fuseinsight.com/topic/serv/tW5wHvYYQZ0UtF1yFB-klXw8wNhQ2oKCmS08KNeZFpielX8_ZpA1iuXwahgWTdH5sqvgvHopiPhSuKw83O2a-k45CIT6YbUTzZf6LW9n_go./html/intro)
Ah, Tektronix. Makes you wonder what they're thinking, 2.5k points per channel? That low end series is way overdue for an update. They're also still offering the TDS 3000 series even though the DPO 3000 seems to offer superior performance at very similar prices. No experience with the DPO here, but the TDS 3000 with its mere 10k points, while certainly a usable scope, did seem a bit of a sluggish performer at times. In fact, I tended to prefer the older analog 2467B over the DSO3000, unless I specifically needed storage.
At this time, the only thing the TDS 1000/2000 series seems to have in its favour are the lack of an annoying fan (very common among other scopes), and a big discount.
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Ah, Tektronix. Makes you wonder what they're thinking, 2.5k points per channel? That low end series is way overdue for an update. They're also still offering the TDS 3000 series even though the DPO 3000 seems to offer superior performance at very similar prices. No experience with the DPO here, but the TDS 3000 with its mere 10k points, while certainly a usable scope, did seem a bit of a sluggish performer at times. In fact, I tended to prefer the older analog 2467B over the DSO3000, unless I specifically needed storage.
Indeed, they often introduce a competitive design, and then keep rehashing it by introducing -B and -C revisions with no significant changes. I believe it was the same with the TDS700 series. The TDS3000 series was very successful when it was introduced in late nineties or so (one of the first DSO to offer variable persistence and thousands of waveforms per second, i.e. closer to an analog scope). But the new revisions since then have added a USB connector and an external trigger output, plus some software features if I remember correctly. No changes to core specs at all.
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Will be interesting to see if Tek bring out a new range of scopes to match Agilent, given the recent 40% off fire sale.
No, I'm not "in the know" there, sorry!
Dave.
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I was dubious about Agilent's claim that they were "game changing" scopes. After thinking about it though, I think they are right, but possibly not for the reasons they thought. Perhaps it is an effect of the weak Pound Sterling versus the Dollar / Yen, or perhaps I have just had my nose in the 2nd hand market for too long, but for what it does, it does seem still pretty expensive. Sure, there are some stunning features. Features that people doing specific jobs may use once a year, but when you look at the core 100MHz dual trace scope, and look at what you actually use a scope for, then I can't see people queued up outside their local representative's door.
But I said it was a game changer? Absolutely. Here is a short story: In the book "The Zen of Graphics", Mike Abrash tells of how he worked with a guy who developed PC video card hardware. This was still comparatively early days, with no 3D and only a small amount of hardware acceleration. This guy had gone as far as he thought he could with the transistor count available to him on the custom silicon, but one day he heard that their competitor had added a command buffer. Now, our hero thought about what this meant, and he knew it had the possibility to free the CPU up from a wait loop, and had the potential to be a product killer, making his product look slow and outdated even before it had shipped. He knew he couldn't compete with that, he had only a couple of dozen gates spare at most, but he put in a very crude double register, which would help, but he was afraid that his competitor's hardware was going to absolutely murder them. As it turned out, the competitor's product was nothing of the sort, and our hero's product was vastly superior. All because he believed that someone else had done a better job with the same resources that he had.
I think people like Rigol are going to look at this scope and think "crikey, this isn't that far in front of where we actually are now". Big LCDs are cheap, as are FPGAs, and fast and wide ADCs are getting cheaper by the day. Add some free Linux, and they could have 90% of the scope for 25% of the price. If I were an engineer in one of these companies now, I'd be rubbing my hands at the way the market had just moved.
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I was dubious about Agilent's claim that they were "game changing" scopes. After thinking about it though, I think they are right, but possibly not for the reasons they thought. Perhaps it is an effect of the weak Pound Sterling versus the Dollar / Yen, or perhaps I have just had my nose in the 2nd hand market for too long, but for what it does, it does seem still pretty expensive. Sure, there are some stunning features. Features that people doing specific jobs may use once a year, but when you look at the core 100MHz dual trace scope, and look at what you actually use a scope for, then I can't see people queued up outside their local representative's door.
I was also initially disappointed by the prices, as I had built up visions of them being Rigol type prices.
But then I thought about and realised the prices are actually quite good (actually very impressive) when you compare with their main competitors, and even Rigol if you start talking the high end units.
Agilent haven't made scopes cheaper, they have simply added more capability for the existing price point.
And by being more open about the "upgradeable" (i.e. crippling) of the scopes then that has further helped reinforced that concept in the market that even the smaller players like Rigol will follow.
But I said it was a game changer? Absolutely. Here is a short story: In the book "The Zen of Graphics", Mike Abrash tells of how he worked with a guy who developed PC video card hardware. This was still comparatively early days, with no 3D and only a small amount of hardware acceleration. This guy had gone as far as he thought he could with the transistor count available to him on the custom silicon, but one day he heard that their competitor had added a command buffer. Now, our hero thought about what this meant, and he knew it had the possibility to free the CPU up from a wait loop, and had the potential to be a product killer, making his product look slow and outdated even before it had shipped. He knew he couldn't compete with that, he had only a couple of dozen gates spare at most, but he put in a very crude double register, which would help, but he was afraid that his competitor's hardware was going to absolutely murder them. As it turned out, the competitor's product was nothing of the sort, and our hero's product was vastly superior. All because he believed that someone else had done a better job with the same resources that he had.
I think people like Rigol are going to look at this scope and think "crikey, this isn't that far in front of where we actually are now". Big LCDs are cheap, as are FPGAs, and fast and wide ADCs are getting cheaper by the day. Add some free Linux, and they could have 90% of the scope for 25% of the price. If I were an engineer in one of these companies now, I'd be rubbing my hands at the way the market had just moved.
Yes, I agree it is pushing the market in a great direction, but I don't agree that the likes of Rigol will be able to match it and wipe the floor with a 90% solution. Unless you count that waveform update rate as being only 10% of the scope, because that's the killer feature that differentiates this scope. Of course if someone doesn't think they need that speed then they save a few hundred bucks and go buy the Rigol.
You can't just whack in an FPGA and get this kind of update rate.
The likes of Rigol are also caught in the same model/profit trap as the big players. They can't just suddenly bring out a 200MHz 4ch 2M scope for $500 and blitz the competition, as that would destroy their own optioned up market in the process. That's why none of them will make that move, as it would be suicide for the niche scope industry, and all the players know it.
My guess is the two tiered market will not change any. You'll still have the big players (Agilent, Tek, Lecroy) at one price point, and the Rigol's et.al at the lower price point with correspondingly poorer performance.
Dave.
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Come on Dave where is the movie of the magic smoke? :p
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You can't just whack in an FPGA and get this kind of update rate.
You pretty much can, especially at the 2000 series performance level, the problem is the FPGA is probably going to be too expensive to make it viable at the moment, but that will change in time.
The logic needed to do this sort of functionality won't have changed in a couple of years' time, but the price per gate of FPGAs will. A major bottleneck is the bandwidth to aquisition memory, which HP have solved with on-chip memory, but fast memory is getting cheaper, and each new FPGA series comes with the interfaces (DDR2,DDR3 etc.) to talk to it.
Probably the biggest obstacle to the higher end is the acquisition front-end, but again that is also something that is continuing to develop.
Given the basic scope architecture, it costs very little more in production cost to add MSO and a big heap of protocol decode, trigger and measurement functions, so this is an area where a competitor with the design and software skills, or even a small group of dedicated Open Source developers, could make some good progress.
Of course the risk is Agilent could instantly increase their value for money by throwing in the premium features at the base price.
My guess is the two tiered market will not change any. You'll still have the big players (Agilent, Tek, Lecroy) at one price point, and the Rigol's et.al at the lower price point with correspondingly poorer performance.
A big established brand name will always attract a premium price, regardless of functionality and performance. Even within the higher end this is an issue - Agilent have been making better scopes than Tek for years, but they still suffer to some extent from the "Tek are the scope guys" attitude, partly because early Hp scopes sucked. Hopefully the current range will improve tis, unless Tek have something super-awesome up their sleeve real soon.
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"News: OH NO!!! The new Agilent 3000 series scope I have for review has FAILED! And I have it on camera, who wants to see the footage? I think I smelled some $12000 smoke..." --> HELL YEAH i want to see that!
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me too absolutely, its failure is part of the review!
Now, it didn't fail due to faulty reassembly? ;D ::)
"News: OH NO!!! The new Agilent 3000 series scope I have for review has FAILED! And I have it on camera, who wants to see the footage? I think I smelled some $12000 smoke..." --> HELL YEAH i want to see that!
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You can't just whack in an FPGA and get this kind of update rate.
the biggest gap in all china DSO design is the splitted functionality - on part managed by FPGA, one by µC.
To get more wfrm/s they have to move as much as possible from µC to FPGA.
Currently Rigol E/D series/UNI-T/Atten are using DSP, which is resulting in max 800wfrm/s where Hantek/Tekway is using Samsung SoC
giving them 2.5k wfrm/s. No idea what Rigol CA series is using, but seems to be still a bit better DSP giving them 2k wfrm/s.
You can't just update the µC to higehr model, sure an ARM11 with 1GHz will maybe give you 5k wfrm/s, but this is still factor 10
slower than an "proper design" - far away from what an ASIC or better FPGA can do.
Rigol seems to have enough knownledge to do it better (DS6000) but this is definitely not an entry model class of DSOs anylonger.
The other (chinese) competitiors have to learn first how to move as much as possible of the core functionality into FPGA.
The Cyclone III is definitely to small, they will have to switch over to much bigger Cyclone IV
or Stratix III - this costs time, and time is money.
For LeCroy and Tektronix this might bea bit easier, depends of course on what they already have in their lab.
On the other side, even if it will be still far away from what Agilents ASIC can do for same money
and Agilent can still update 2000x series with the crippled 3000x ASIC, to get let say 200k wfrm/s and 1Mpts.
The "biggest gap" of Agilents 2000x is the 100kpts memory, but if the ASIC is the same in both models a memory update could
be still possible - if not 2000XA will be released.
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[quote ]
"News: OH NO!!! The new Agilent 3000 series scope I have for review has FAILED! And I have it on camera, who wants to see the footage? I think I smelled some $12000 smoke..."[/quote]
Good News?
:P :P :P
Is there an estimated time for the video?
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OH NO!!! The new Agilent 3000 series scope I have for review has FAILED! And I have it on camera, who wants to see the footage? I think I smelled some $12000 smoke...
outch ... hope will not Agilent kill you, but yeah as saturation said, this is part of the review so let's show us.
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outch ... hope will not Agilent kill you, but yeah as saturation said, this is part of the review so let's show us.
Looks like Dave to me...
(http://i.imgur.com/nPWcK.jpg)
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outch ... hope will not Agilent kill you, but yeah as saturation said, this is part of the review so let's show us.
Looks like Dave to me...
(http://i.imgur.com/nPWcK.jpg)
nice, i can't tell, did you shop a person in there(or someone else shop it in)
and in regards to this, i'm supprised that none of the other companies he has either: 1. bad mouthed 2. given bad reviews
Havent gotten to him
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Should I get the 2000 100MHz at once? Or upgrade the 70MHz later? I don't really know if I need it.
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Should I get the 2000 100MHz at once? Or upgrade the 70MHz later? I don't really know if I need it.
There isn't much difference between 70MHz and 100MHz, is it even worth the money now or later?
200MHz would be nice step up of course.
Dave.
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..of course it may depend on what's actually available - demand is sure to be high so you may find the higher spec models are available earlier.
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..of course it may depend on what's actually available - demand is sure to be high so you may find the higher spec models are available earlier.
I read somewhere that sales have been double what was expected.
Dave.
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Has anyone enquired about availability ?
Looks like they are planning on selling via distributors, but no confirmed signs of stock anywhere yet.
My guess is most/all the first production will go to loan & demo units. IME Agilent are pretty good at providing eval kit - when I was looking at the 6000 series I got one on loan for a couple of weeks - when I ordered, they let me keep the loan unit for a couple more weeks until mine arrived!
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Does all Agilent test gear have its BNC sockets bayonet pins orientated with their pins vertical now? Its a stupidly small thing, but it is bugging me that they aren't horizontal.
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Does all Agilent test gear have its BNC sockets bayonet pins orientated with their pins vertical now? Its a stupidly small thing, but it is bugging me that they aren't horizontal.
The powered probe interface was designed with the BNC pins vertical, so they must stay that way to maintain compatibility.
Is it just an aesthetic thing, or do some of your probes end up sideways because of it?
David
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Has anyone enquired about availability ?
Looks like they are planning on selling via distributors, but no confirmed signs of stock anywhere yet.
My guess is most/all the first production will go to loan & demo units. IME Agilent are pretty good at providing eval kit - when I was looking at the 6000 series I got one on loan for a couple of weeks - when I ordered, they let me keep the loan unit for a couple more weeks until mine arrived!
Here
http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=3000X-Oscilloscope&gclid=CNPw5cHJlKcCFUgTfAodsVsfdQ (http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=3000X-Oscilloscope&gclid=CNPw5cHJlKcCFUgTfAodsVsfdQ)
and (from Germany)
http://www.datatec.de/lshop,showdetail,2004g,d,,,msox3024a,,,.htm (http://www.datatec.de/lshop,showdetail,2004g,d,,,msox3024a,,,.htm)
I know what I'll be asking Santa for this Christmas (the MSOX3024A)
David
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Has anyone enquired about availability ?
Got an estimate of 9 weeks for the 2002.
It's still better then the year I waited for my TI ez430 :p
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Finally had time to watch the whole show, and it was a show. I hope Agilent gives you credit & recognition for the fine work, your review was so good, I felt like buying one right away. I was sorry too see it end, but luckily there was a tear down as Part II.
I also like that is was natural, and your disassembly real, in many reviews the cases magically come apart quickly, but realistically, opening a new box we all need to subtly look at how cases, board and parts fits to know which screws need come off, any sequence if needed, or which clips need to be freed. I do those screwdriver lift techniques all the time.
I'd love to see more contrasts of its performance against any scopes you have around, and small comparisons with the Rigol was perfect; you do get more for your money with the Agilent.
However, your diplomatic way of saying its faults tempered my enthusiasm. It does have more virtues than faults. If I were a pro EE, I could amortize the cost of equipment, but for home labs, this is sadly, overkill. The Rigol or Tekway is bang for buck for home labs.
Function generator: based on the spec and capabilities, it isn't good value for $400+ they want for it.
LAN card: useful, and its desktop software fantastic, but very pricey.
Digital Probes: pricey, but if you need them, you need them.
Unused buttons on your model: only activated with the updated models? you now have 'useless' buttons on a face. Its probably better to provide covers for them.
..of course it may depend on what's actually available - demand is sure to be high so you may find the higher spec models are available earlier.
I read somewhere that sales have been double what was expected.
Dave.
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i thought about the pricing and neutered-stuff and one way to look at it is that they charge what they charge because they need to cover the extensive R&D costs AND the ASIC fab itself(like Dave said, that can't be cheaper).
So looking at it from that way, it makes sense they don't provide a hardware-neutered entry-level as it would actually cost the same or more at first.
maybe after some time, or after a new revision(who knows, smaller lithography, cheaper fpgas, etc etc) they could provide a 2ch HW (dispensing the 2 non-used channels would lower some cost) without the unneesary buttons as well(all the 3xxx functionality, lopgic buttons, etc, that all adds in the end) that would be only BW upgradeable at a very competitive cost.
But then again, it's Agilent, it will never be "Rigol" cost-effective, like Fluke will never be cost-effective compared to a similar specced Extech DMM....
I think that for the price, it's prohibitive for garage/home-labs and only relegated to companies buying them for their labs/production. I don't know about the rest of the world, but 1.2K is luxury-expensive over here(and with customs and shipping, that thing will cost upwards of 2.5K here, for the base model...)
For the price, you can get the usual rigol plus a decent CRO and you get "infinite" waveform update plus DSO functionality :D, albeit not together but oh well...., beggars can't be chosers
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For the price, you can get the usual rigol plus a decent CRO and you get "infinite" waveform update plus DSO functionality :D, albeit not together but oh well...., beggars can't be chosers
Actually, analog scope does not solve the problem as infrequent single glitches are too dim to be seen (or they fade away too quickly away for one to see), even if they are drawn more often. Besides, even analog scope needs some time to do the retrace & trigger rearm (X-channel amplifier has limited slew-rate), thus waveform "capture" rate is very well finite.
Regards,
Janne
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Actually, analog scope does not solve the problem as infrequent single glitches are too dim to be seen (or they fade away too quickly away for one to see), even if they are drawn more often.
This is why the microchannel plate CRT was invented.
Besides, even analog scope needs some time to do the retrace & trigger rearm (X-channel amplifier has limited slew-rate), thus waveform "capture" rate is very well finite.
But it is (mostly) proportional to the time base, so it can be very high at fast time bases. It is obviously finite, though.
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I've not had too much experience with glitches, but what I've used on low end scopes is the roll mode. It gives me a rough idea that a glitch is actually happening, and roughly the frequency; when I get some idea of its periodicity, I can estimate the timing and trigger characteristics I need try to 'zero' in on so I can better see the type of waveform it is with as a faster timebase.
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A few comments on the 3000 teardown
The ASICs nearest the BNCs are clearly the ADCs - could be that they use the same ADC on the 2000, multiplexed 4 ways, and two ways on the 3000 for the full bandwidth.
Re. the master/slave thing - the slave MegaZoom ASIC is clearly handing the additional acquisition width for the extra channels, with the master still handling triggering etc., hence the diff traces on the underside going to all 4 channels. My guess is the two display buffers are overlaid to combine the fast-update data - can't think how else this could be done.
Like the 2000, there seem to be two sets of diff traces from each channel on the PCB underside - my guess is there are fast comparators in the cans, with 2 seperate programmable thresholds, one for trigger & one for time measurements?
My guess is the 2-channel version will only have the master channel populated.
An interesting difference on the 3000 is the extra DRAM chip near each ASIC. According to Micron's Part number decoder (http://www.micron.com/support/fbga.html), D9JLR is a MT47H32M16HR-3:F (http://cache.micron.com/Protected/expiretime=1298330576;badurl=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5taWNyb24uY29tLy80MDQuaHRtbA==/f7334fb6f5b292baa5b129b9465c9aa4/1/55/512MbDDR2.pdf) 8Mx16 DDR2 SDRAM, which is where the larger memory depth is clearly occurring.
Re. the function gen and lack of ARB, I wonder if 'mask' on that ASIC drawing could be maskrom for wave data rather than mask test..? Mask ROM would certainly use less silicon than dedicated ARB RAM.
Any chance of some high-res pics soon so we can do some further digging...?
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Re. the master/slave thing - the slave MegaZoom ASIC is clearly handing the additional acquisition width for the extra channels, with the master still handling triggering etc., hence the diff traces on the underside going to all 4 channels. My guess is the two display buffers are overlaid to combine the fast-update data - can't think how else this could be done.
Like the 2000, there seem to be two sets of diff traces from each channel on the PCB underside - my guess is there are fast comparators in the cans, with 2 seperate programmable thresholds, one for trigger & one for time measurements?
If I recall correctly, the 6000 series, and presumably the 3000, have advanced trigger modes that allow for in or out of range triggers. Maye that's what the 2 trigger lines per channel are for? I'll check tomorrow and see if it does infarct have this mode.
An interesting difference on the 3000 is the extra DRAM chip near each ASIC. According to Micron's Part number decoder (http://www.micron.com/support/fbga.html), D9JLR is a MT47H32M16HR-3:F (http://cache.micron.com/Protected/expiretime=1298330576;badurl=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5taWNyb24uY29tLy80MDQuaHRtbA==/f7334fb6f5b292baa5b129b9465c9aa4/1/55/512MbDDR2.pdf) 8Mx16 DDR2 SDRAM, which is where the larger memory depth is clearly occurring.
That RAM couldn't possibly be for the main acquisition memory, that chip has a maximum bandwidth of 800MT/sec * 2 bytes/16bits = 1.6GB/sec, much less than the 4GB/sec coming from the ADC feeding the ASIC. My bet is that RAM is part of the display generator and/or GUI framebuffer. I think the 2000 had the DRAM next to the ASIC as well.
Re. the function gen and lack of ARB, I wonder if 'mask' on that ASIC drawing could be maskrom for wave data rather than mask test..? Mask ROM would certainly use less silicon than dedicated ARB RAM.
I'm thinking mask refers to the mask limit testing, which would have to be hardware accelerated to test 1M waveforms per second!
David
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A few comments on the 3000 teardown
The ASICs nearest the BNCs are clearly the ADCs - could be that they use the same ADC on the 2000, multiplexed 4 ways, and two ways on the 3000 for the full bandwidth.
Yes, it is the ADC, same on both series but muxed as you say on the 3000. The 3000 has double to sample rate of the 2000, so that's why it needs two ADC chips (and two Magazooms)
I just found out today the ADC chip is fully Agilent custom designed as well.
Re. the master/slave thing - the slave MegaZoom ASIC is clearly handing the additional acquisition width for the extra channels, with the master still handling triggering etc., hence the diff traces on the underside going to all 4 channels. My guess is the two display buffers are overlaid to combine the fast-update data - can't think how else this could be done.
Like the 2000, there seem to be two sets of diff traces from each channel on the PCB underside - my guess is there are fast comparators in the cans, with 2 seperate programmable thresholds, one for trigger & one for time measurements?
I have a photo of an Agilent branded chip under the can.
The 3000 front end is actually two different types. The 350MHz/500MHz option is a totally different front end to the lower model. So if you buy a lower bandwidth model and buy the "upgrade" then the unit must be shipped back to Agilent and they replace the board.
This is NOT the case on the 2000 model though.
BTW, I also found out the Megazoom IV ASIC is the brainchild one one guy at Agilent, one Matt Holkom(sp?)
My guess is the 2-channel version will only have the master channel populated.
You would guess so.
An interesting difference on the 3000 is the extra DRAM chip near each ASIC. According to Micron's Part number decoder (http://www.micron.com/support/fbga.html), D9JLR is a MT47H32M16HR-3:F (http://cache.micron.com/Protected/expiretime=1298330576;badurl=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5taWNyb24uY29tLy80MDQuaHRtbA==/f7334fb6f5b292baa5b129b9465c9aa4/1/55/512MbDDR2.pdf) 8Mx16 DDR2 SDRAM, which is where the larger memory depth is clearly occurring.
All data and people I have spoken to indicate that the sample memory is entirely internal to the Megazoom.
I don't know what this external memory does though.
Re. the function gen and lack of ARB, I wonder if 'mask' on that ASIC drawing could be maskrom for wave data rather than mask test..? Mask ROM would certainly use less silicon than dedicated ARB RAM.
Any chance of some high-res pics soon so we can do some further digging...?
Sure, just have to get them up.
Dave.
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An interesting difference on the 3000 is the extra DRAM chip near each ASIC. According to Micron's Part number decoder (http://www.micron.com/support/fbga.html), D9JLR is a MT47H32M16HR-3:F (http://cache.micron.com/Protected/expiretime=1298330576;badurl=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5taWNyb24uY29tLy80MDQuaHRtbA==/f7334fb6f5b292baa5b129b9465c9aa4/1/55/512MbDDR2.pdf) 8Mx16 DDR2 SDRAM, which is where the larger memory depth is clearly occurring.
That RAM couldn't possibly be for the main acquisition memory, that chip has a maximum bandwidth of 800MT/sec * 2 bytes/16bits = 1.6GB/sec, much less than the 4GB/sec coming from the ADC feeding the ASIC. My bet is that RAM is part of the display generator and/or GUI framebuffer. I think the 2000 had the DRAM next to the ASIC as well.
Re. the function gen and lack of ARB, I wonder if 'mask' on that ASIC drawing could be maskrom for wave data rather than mask test..? Mask ROM would certainly use less silicon than dedicated ARB RAM.
I'm thinking mask refers to the mask limit testing, which would have to be hardware accelerated to test 1M waveforms per second!
Yes, it's the mask testing function.
Dave.
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However, your diplomatic way of saying its faults tempered my enthusiasm. It does have more virtues than faults. If I were a pro EE, I could amortize the cost of equipment, but for home labs, this is sadly, overkill. The Rigol or Tekway is bang for buck for home labs.
Depends on how you value bang-per-buck.
The Agilent has 50-100 times the update performance of a Rigol (plus other things) for 3 times the price. Your call on what's important to you.
Function generator: based on the spec and capabilities, it isn't good value for $400+ they want for it.
Depends. For those who want convenience and basic waveform generation then it's well worth it. Otherwise a Rigol arb gen beats it for bang-per-buck.
It was designed for the educational market in which they will make an absolute killing.
I just found out that educational customers get the Gen for free + the training signals + 15% discount.
LAN card: useful, and its desktop software fantastic, but very pricey.
Digital Probes: pricey, but if you need them, you need them.
Once again, entirely subjective. Just usual Agilent pricing for such things.
Unused buttons on your model: only activated with the updated models? you now have 'useless' buttons on a face. Its probably better to provide covers for them.
I found out these were left in deliberately "just in case" competitors bring out competing models, then Agilent can simply enable that functionality in software, no design change needed to meet new markets.
Dave.
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I'm intrigued by the "education market" pitch- Every university and college I've looked at is either using WunhungLo style DSOs or ancient Trio/University scopes. I wouldn't have thought many educators trying to fit out a lab for students would splash out on test equipment.
Do many educators really fit out their labs with this grade of gear, or have I just been going to the wrong institutions?
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I'm intrigued by the "education market" pitch- Every university and college I've looked at is either using WunhungLo style DSOs or ancient Trio/University scopes. I wouldn't have thought many educators trying to fit out a lab for students would splash out on test equipment.
Do many educators really fit out their labs with this grade of gear, or have I just been going to the wrong institutions?
I don't know, it's been too many decades since I was in a school lab.
But Agilent in a presentation I went too today said the scope was aimed at the education market from day 1, and they know what they are doing.
It drove a lot of the requirements. Like the big screen so multiple students could see, the entry level 70MHz version (training labs don't need bandwidth), the sig gen which was needed to generate the training signals, and the making of elaborate student training manuals to go along with it.
The training material supplied by Agilent is the killer, and schools will lap it up. For schools, the gear is not much use unless you have developed training material to go along with it, and that's a big task schools would rather not do. If Agilent provide that then schools will lap it up, and Agilent are pretty sure they will sell squillions of these to schools.
Dave.
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An interesting difference on the 3000 is the extra DRAM chip near each ASIC. According to Micron's Part number decoder (http://www.micron.com/support/fbga.html), D9JLR is a MT47H32M16HR-3:F (http://cache.micron.com/Protected/expiretime=1298330576;badurl=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5taWNyb24uY29tLy80MDQuaHRtbA==/f7334fb6f5b292baa5b129b9465c9aa4/1/55/512MbDDR2.pdf) 8Mx16 DDR2 SDRAM, which is where the larger memory depth is clearly occurring.
That RAM couldn't possibly be for the main acquisition memory, that chip has a maximum bandwidth of 800MT/sec * 2 bytes/16bits = 1.6GB/sec, much less than the 4GB/sec coming from the ADC feeding the ASIC. My bet is that RAM is part of the display generator and/or GUI framebuffer. I think the 2000 had the DRAM next to the ASIC as well.
I thought that but it was late & only about a factor of two out, so I didn't raise the data rate issue. I looked again at the 2000 vid - it does have a RAM chip but a different Samsung one that I can't quite read the number of.
I've not looked in detail at the SDRAM datasheet, but it's possible that for long burst writes, the transfer rate may be a bit greater than the transfers/sec figure quoted - the raw rate from the SDRAM clock is 1.3GT/s but I'm no sure if this SDRAM supports full-page bursts that would approach this rate.
I wouldn't rule out this being the acquisition memory though as the transfer rate is not a zillion miles out - 4M is an awful lot of RAM to include on an ASIC, and there may be some scope for compression. Without looking in detail at how the sample rate changes in different modes it's hard to tell - the user manual doesn't give much info.
I don't think it could be the display RAM, as for the intensity display, it needs to do a read/modify/write at the incoming data rate, so the bandwidth requirement is higher, and also would not change with acquisition memory depth.
I'm thinking mask refers to the mask limit testing, which would have to be hardware accelerated to test 1M waveforms per second!
Yes, but due to the display architecture, all it needs to do is detect whether pixels are plotted at specific display co-ordinates, so it's only a fairly small addition to the existing display hardware.
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BTW, I also found out the Megazoom IV ASIC is the brainchild one one guy at Agilent, one Matt Holkom(sp?)
There is a Matt Holcomb listed in the credits list on the 6000 Easter Egg (press the unused function key in the service manu 4 times).
When you fire up the 3000 Dave, see if you can find a hidden feature - unused function keys in the service or utility menus seem a popular choice for Scope easter eggs (http://www.eeggs.com/php/search.php?cx=partner-pub-3374430587172271%3Aqa6js0-hxxa&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=oscilloscope&sa=Go&siteurl=www.eeggs.com%2Ftree%2F1159.html#1096)
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Yes, as you emphasized one key issue for 3x the price is the wfms/s rate. Your estimate for the 1052E on the video was 800 wfms/s vs Agilent's 50,000, that's over 60x faster.
On your lead I perused Agilent's education offer:
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2005946&nid=-536902447.0.00&id=2005946 (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2005946&nid=-536902447.0.00&id=2005946)
This means the scope+FG ~ $1100, before taxes and delivery charges. Given no scope has this wfms/s rate for this price, one just needs to quantify how much this means to your work.
All other items you demo'd can all be helpful, one just has to have labor to be saved by these features to justify the cost.
as for unused keys ... so they can provide the license code for discounts to free in the future, as competition heats up or the technology ages, without a new product to redesign is nice. You often don't see devices with dead or reserved keys on purpose, and it can be distracting. You can get used to it or put a sticker on it to blend in with the casing color.
Depends on how you value bang-per-buck.
The Agilent has 50-100 times the update performance of a Rigol (plus other things) for 3 times the price. Your call on what's important to you.
Function generator: based on the spec and capabilities, it isn't good value for $400+ they want for it.
Depends. For those who want convenience and basic waveform generation then it's well worth it. Otherwise a Rigol arb gen beats it for bang-per-buck.
It was designed for the educational market in which they will make an absolute killing.
I just found out that educational customers get the Gen for free + the training signals + 15% discount.
LAN card: useful, and its desktop software fantastic, but very pricey.
Digital Probes: pricey, but if you need them, you need them.
Once again, entirely subjective. Just usual Agilent pricing for such things.
Unused buttons on your model: only activated with the updated models? you now have 'useless' buttons on a face. Its probably better to provide covers for them.
I found out these were left in deliberately "just in case" competitors bring out competing models, then Agilent can simply enable that functionality in software, no design change needed to meet new markets.
Dave.
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So... How long until someone cracks the firmware to unlock all the features. 8)
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So... How long until someone cracks the firmware to unlock all the features. 8)
I wonder if the fact that they're using a Microsoft OS will have any bearing on how hacking the OS will be treated - will it be Agilent that chases after the "hacker" or MS who chases the "pirate?" Either way, they both have big legal guns compared to Rigol.
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I'm intrigued by the "education market" pitch- Every university and college I've looked at is either using WunhungLo style DSOs or ancient Trio/University scopes. I wouldn't have thought many educators trying to fit out a lab for students would splash out on test equipment.
Do many educators really fit out their labs with this grade of gear, or have I just been going to the wrong institutions?
Both uni's (Auckland and Queensland) I went use agilint and tek scopes in the labs.
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Dave, did you try your analogue scope on the signal generator output with glitch turned on? I'm just curious to see if a good old analogue scope could detect a glitch that a budget DSO couldn't.
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I'm intrigued by the "education market" pitch- Every university and college I've looked at is either using WunhungLo style DSOs or ancient Trio/University scopes. I wouldn't have thought many educators trying to fit out a lab for students would splash out on test equipment.
Do many educators really fit out their labs with this grade of gear, or have I just been going to the wrong institutions?
I don't know, it's been too many decades since I was in a school lab.
But Agilent in a presentation I went too today said the scope was aimed at the education market from day 1, and they know what they are doing.
It drove a lot of the requirements. Like the big screen so multiple students could see, the entry level 70MHz version (training labs don't need bandwidth), the sig gen which was needed to generate the training signals, and the making of elaborate student training manuals to go along with it.
The training material supplied by Agilent is the killer, and schools will lap it up. For schools, the gear is not much use unless you have developed training material to go along with it, and that's a big task schools would rather not do. If Agilent provide that then schools will lap it up, and Agilent are pretty sure they will sell squillions of these to schools.
Dave.
Don't forget the VGA output module - a great idea. Now lecturers can show the use of the 'scope in a lecture theatre to a couple of hundred people, instead of having 30 students huddle around a bench in a lab.
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BTW, I also found out the Megazoom IV ASIC is the brainchild one one guy at Agilent, one Matt Holkom(sp?)
There is a Matt Holcomb listed in the credits list on the 6000 Easter Egg (press the unused function key in the service manu 4 times).
When you fire up the 3000 Dave, see if you can find a hidden feature - unused function keys in the service or utility menus seem a popular choice for Scope easter eggs (http://www.eeggs.com/php/search.php?cx=partner-pub-3374430587172271%3Aqa6js0-hxxa&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=oscilloscope&sa=Go&siteurl=www.eeggs.com%2Ftree%2F1159.html#1096)
No joy on the 2000 series.
EDIT: Oops, spoke too soon, found it!
A rather neat animation of the names.
I'll have to post a quick video.
Dave.
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Dave, did you try your analogue scope on the signal generator output with glitch turned on? I'm just curious to see if a good old analogue scope could detect a glitch that a budget DSO couldn't.
Depends on the CRT used, and the timebase. As someone mentioned a microchannel CRT, on those, the answer is most likely yes. I've used such scopes (Tek 2467B to be specific), and they would give a visible trace in single shot mode, at the fastest timebase setting (500ps/div IIRC). For normal oscilloscopes, it depends on the tube brightness. Just see how fast you can make the horizontal sweep go before the trace becomes hard to see even in a dark room. I'm not sure if true microchannel tube oscilloscopes are even made anymore, though Iwatsu seems to have an analog/digital hybrid CRT that would have all the advantages plus storage on its high end analog scopes.
If you would notice a rare glitch on a signal that is normal most of the time is a diferent matter, because you'd be observing with the intensity turned up high. The great brilliance of the normal trace would make it harder to observe the much fainter trace of a rare glitch. Such use also tends to cause increased wear on the CRT screen. Add to that the fact that steep edges are very faint on analog scopes, and the odds don't look so good anymore unless sweep speeds are fairly low.
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BTW, I also found out the Megazoom IV ASIC is the brainchild one one guy at Agilent, one Matt Holkom(sp?)
There is a Matt Holcomb listed in the credits list on the 6000 Easter Egg (press the unused function key in the service manu 4 times).
When you fire up the 3000 Dave, see if you can find a hidden feature - unused function keys in the service or utility menus seem a popular choice for Scope easter eggs (http://www.eeggs.com/php/search.php?cx=partner-pub-3374430587172271%3Aqa6js0-hxxa&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=oscilloscope&sa=Go&siteurl=www.eeggs.com%2Ftree%2F1159.html#1096)
No joy on the 2000 series.
EDIT: Oops, spoke too soon, found it!
A rather neat animation of the names.
I'll have to post a quick video.
Dave.
This is the MSO6000 one :
Agilent MSO6000 Scope easter egg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rOtkoeYyX8#)
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Wacky Germans strike back :)
http://www.hameg.com/0.618.0.html (http://www.hameg.com/0.618.0.html)
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That's surprisingly similar to the Agilent series.
Wacky Germans strike back :)
http://www.hameg.com/0.618.0.html (http://www.hameg.com/0.618.0.html)
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That's surprisingly similar to the Agilent series.
Wacky Germans strike back :)
http://www.hameg.com/0.618.0.html (http://www.hameg.com/0.618.0.html)
enclosure a bit , but that's all ... state of the art german technology? not really, only up to 2000 wfms/s.
LeCroy would say "wfrm/s is not everything", sure but a bit disapointed.
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On the other hand, it does offer a cheaper path to getting a logic analyser with protocol decoding in there than the Agilent. And if bandwidth and budget is more important than update rate, you'd get to 350MHz cheaper with the Hameg line. (Faster than that, and you'd have to go to the Rohde & Schwarz brand instead of Hameg. Same company though, and those do have a good update rate. Probably not affordable, mind you.)
At the time when I was looking for an oscilloscope, I settled on a Hameg 1508-2. More expensive than similar bandwidth options from Tek, Rigol or Instek at the time, but a much better performer. The short sample memory of the low end teks (2.5k) scared me at the time, already having had experience with the TDS3000 series which, though having more (10k), were already prone to aliasing. And the 3000 was above the hobby budget already. Rigol, eliminated ater hearing the fan and seeing it at work (noisy signal! Though the TDS2000 series weren't much better). Didn't feel like getting a PC scope. What remained was a Voltcraft DSO-8104 (rebadged Instek GDS-2104). It seemed all right after talking with a representative. Unfortunately, they didn't tell me the truth. Said it was silent, while in reality it had a more annoying fan than the Rigol. Worse, its power supply was terrible. It showed regularly repeating bursts of strong EMI on all channels (close to 200mV pk-pk). Borrowed an analog scope from work to check where it came from, and the analog one started showing the same as soon as the Voltcraft one got turned on in the same room. So that one went back to the seller. There wasn't much left in the affordable categories at that point, so I ended up taking the Hameg, analog/digital combiscope. That one was initially defective (just a little thing), but got fixed quickly by the manufacturer and has served well so far. A very capable device, even if it cost more than what I initially intended to spend.
Agilent was not an option at the time (the affordable ones were Rigols), but if I were to be in the market for a new scope today, it would definitely be considered, but I wouldn't rule out the Hameg combiscopes either. I probably would not consider the new all-electronic Hamegs though, if I didn't already have analog on the HM1508-2. They might be better than any other cheap digital out there except the Agilent, but with the Agilent out there even that isn't good enough anymore... Unless protocol decoding is a killer feature for you I guess.
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Wacky Germans strike back :)
http://www.hameg.com/0.618.0.html (http://www.hameg.com/0.618.0.html)
Geeze, they must all really know what the others are up to!
Same 70-200MHz bandwidth, similar upgradability, paid options, serial decode etc.
And an old style component tester!
Dave.
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(Faster than that, and you'd have to go to the Rohde & Schwarz brand instead of Hameg. Same company though, and those do have a good update rate. Probably not affordable, mind you.)
Figuring out Rohde&Schwarz pricing is dead easy, simply add another zero to whatever the highest priced competitor is charging. ;D
Not really, but it surely can't be to far from the truth.
And an old style component tester!
Finally a killer feature no one else thought of! ;)
Probably more useful for many hobbyist users than the neutered function generator. Even the old analog Phillips function generator during my apprenticeship had more features than the Agilent option. At probably less cost, new.
Actually this is also kewl:
New is the option HOO11 which enable the analysis of these serial protocols on the analog channel. Even with the 2 channel instruments 3-wire buses such as SPI can be analyzed this way by making use of the external trigger input.(additional probe recommended) The HOO11 will be delivered with each HMO7xx, 10xx, 15xx, 20xx at no cost in the year of introduction.
->no cost<-
Free I2C, SPI, UART/RS-232 decoding, as long as you can make do with the analog channels (+trigger input). Take that Agilent. :D
Unfortunately no CAN, bugger.
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Figuring out Rohde&Schwarz pricing is dead easy, simply add another zero to whatever the highest priced competitor is charging. ;D
Not really, but it surely can't be to far from the truth.
Anyone got actual prices on the various options?
Finally a killer feature no one else thought of! ;)
Probably more useful for many hobbyist users than the neutered function generator. Even the old analog Phillips function generator during my apprenticeship had more features than the Agilent option. At probably less cost, new.
No way, I'd take the function gen any day of the week. It might be "neutered" but still incredibly useful.
Value for money is course moot. Educational people get it for free.
Actually this is also kewl:
New is the option HOO11 which enable the analysis of these serial protocols on the analog channel. Even with the 2 channel instruments 3-wire buses such as SPI can be analyzed this way by making use of the external trigger input.(additional probe recommended) The HOO11 will be delivered with each HMO7xx, 10xx, 15xx, 20xx at no cost in the year of introduction.
->no cost<-
Free I2C, SPI, UART/RS-232 decoding, as long as you can make do with the analog channels (+trigger input). Take that Agilent. :D
I assume it's actually free, and doesn't expire after a year ;D
Yeah, great option not available on the Agilent 2000 series. Although that magic button is there on the front panel, just waiting for Agilent to respond to market forces...
Dave.
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Anyone got actual prices on the various options?
Not yet. It should not take much more time.
No way, I'd take the function gen any day of the week. It might be "neutered" but still incredibly useful.
Value for money is course moot. Educational people get it for free.
Just pulling your leg. ;)
Maybe because IIRC it did not even have an offset.
I assume it's actually free, and doesn't expire after a year ;D
Yeah, great option not available on the Agilent 2000 series. Although that magic button is there on the front panel, just waiting for Agilent to respond to market forces...
I think it is a very nice idea because the analog channels have much more possibilities than logic analyzer inputs.
Not only because they are already there but you should be able to do all kinds of automated fault and glitch capturing with them if the scope knows the protocol that goes beyond the capabilities of "normal" logic analyzers.
At least if they use the additional abilities of the analog channels.
Basically an extension / different application of the mask testing in the Agilent scopes, with preloaded patterns depending on the serial protocol.
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With the new (desperate?) lower pricing on Tektronix scopes
http://www.tek.com/products/oscilloscopes/landing/2011salesevent/ (http://www.tek.com/products/oscilloscopes/landing/2011salesevent/)
I think the DPO/MSO 2000 series could be worthy competition for the Agilent 2000 series. The screen is not as nice, of course, but it's a step above the Rigol types. Waveform capture is a pretty good 5000/sec. There are some features that top the Agilents (more like features from the Agilent 3000 series):
1 M points record length
More triggering options (rise time, glitch, etc.)
16 digital channels in MSO models
Digital filtering
Search function
And they're throwing in serial decode for free!
So, depending on the features you're looking for, I think it would be good to consider the Tek as well.
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Anyone got actual prices on the various options?
Not yet. It should not take much more time.
I have some (rounded) prices:
HMO1024 - 4-channel 100 MHz, 4 x 1GS/s: 1700 Euro + VAT
HMO1524 - 4-channel 150 MHz, 4 x 1GS/s: 2000 Euro + VAT
HMO2024 - 4-channel 200 MHz, 4 x 1GS/s: 2200 Euro + VAT
Options:
HO3508 - Probe, 8-Channel-Logic: EUR 290 + VAT (for mixed signal functions)
HOO10 - I²C/SPI/UART: EUR 290 + VAT (via logic probes, HOO11 via analog channels is free)
HO730 - Dual LAN/USB with Webserver: EUR 220 + VAT
HO740 - GPIB: EUR 270 + VAT
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I think I like these new Hameg HMOs, especially for their supposedly flash A/D-converters, which is really handy for the type of measurements I would itend to use it for. Hopefully its A/D-converters stand up for their low-noise labeling. On the other hand, 2000 - 2500 wfms/sec really isn't that much, which would exclude it from certain other uses...
Do the new Agilent scopes have flash A/D-converters too or do they have analog delay lines?
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Most scopes would have flash converters, that's also why they generally don't have more than 8 bits of resolution. Cost and power consumption really goes through the roof exponentially as you add bits to a flash ADC.
I'm ot sure if they are the same as the ones used in their analog/digital combiscopes, but if they are, yes, they're pretty good by cheap oscilloscope standards. Though the combination of long memory and its default display mode makes them look like another scope in peak detect mode, so the first impression is that they're really noisy. That's just an artifact of the standard settings which are biased to detecting glitches more than they are to showing off the ADC performance.
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Why no ground coupling? - there is a ground level mark on the side of the screen so you don't really need it.
The advantage of having a ground coupling option is the ability to check inherent noise of the input amplifiers and ADCs. Knowing the scope inherent noise you can measure the actual noise by using the formula RSS (root-sum-square) with the assumption the noise being measured is Gaussian in nature.
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I don;t know if anyone asked it or mentioned it, but Dave, did you tried "The Unusual Oscilloscope Phenomenon" on those scopes?
:P :P :P
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The advantage of having a ground coupling option is the ability to check inherent noise of the input amplifiers and ADCs. Knowing the scope inherent noise you can measure the actual noise by using the formula RSS (root-sum-square) with the assumption the noise being measured is Gaussian in nature.
Some DSO's just fake it with a digital Y=0 signal. Putting a 50ohm terminator (which is almost a short compared to 1Mohm, at least at low frequencies) on the input appear to work pretty well.
Back in the days before automated measurements, cursors and readout, ground coupling was much more important, since you didn't have any other way to find out the vertical offset.
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Figuring out Rohde&Schwarz pricing is dead easy, simply add another zero to whatever the highest priced competitor is charging. ;D
Not really, but it surely can't be to far from the truth.
Anyone got actual prices on the various options?
Yes, I found one price for the basic Hameg HMO702 "somewhere"http://www.fe-kl.de/Elektronik/fe-oszilloskop.htm (http://www.fe-kl.de/Elektronik/fe-oszilloskop.htm) on the net, don't hold me for that.
It's 1366,12€ in Germany VAT included, which would mean 1148,-€ VAT excluded. This would be ~ US$ 1602.7 considering an approximated EUR/USD change ratio of 1.4. I have no idea how much this would be in AU$.
OK. I've crunched up the numbers. If that's correct, then the entry level Hameg HMO702 (1148,-€) is proposed to cost ~15% more than the entry level Agilent DSOX2002A (996,-€ VAT excl.). I'm really not sure whether its improvements are worth that much money.
So, If it's true that Hameg appears to launch these new scopes to the market in July 2011, will you get one as an early adopter for testing and previewing purposes? I think we would all be interested in some Agilent vs. Hameg real-world tests ;D
See here for technical questions about the new Hameg HMO scope series: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=2923.0 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=2923.0)
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So, If it's true that Hameg appears to launch these new scopes to the market in July 2011, will you get one as an early adopter for testing and previewing purposes? I think we would all be interested in some Agilent vs. Hameg real-world tests ;D
Agilent were smart in contacting me well ahead of launch date and ensuring I had units to review on the date of the launch.
Hameg/Lecroy aren't as smart apparently, and Lecroy have contacted me before but apparently aren't that fond of my blog.
I could probably get one some way if I really tried I guess.
I've been offered the new Rigol 6000 and Goodwill 3000's for review if I want through the local dealer.
Dave.
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So, If it's true that Hameg appears to launch these new scopes to the market in July 2011, will you get one as an early adopter for testing and previewing purposes? I think we would all be interested in some Agilent vs. Hameg real-world tests ;D
Agilent were smart in contacting me well ahead of launch date and ensuring I had units to review on the date of the launch.
Hameg/Lecroy aren't as smart apparently, and Lecroy have contacted me before but apparently aren't that fond of my blog.
I could probably get one some way if I really tried I guess.
I've been offered the new Rigol 6000 and Goodwill 3000's for review if I want through the local dealer.
Dave.
Sounds like a plan.
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Sounds like a plan.
Yeah, but unfortunately it takes a crap load of time to review a scope...
Dave.
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Sounds like a plan.
Yeah, but unfortunately it takes a crap load of time to review a scope...
Dave.
I can imagine. Plus actually cutting together all the video...ouch. I guess it might be worth it though if the company loves your opinion of their hardware. Besides, you get more freebies!
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I really want to buy one of these! I may get the InfiniiVision 2000 or InfiniiVision 3000 series in 200 MHz with the logic analyzer option . What do you guys think about this thing not having and adjustable FIR filter? My rigol has this and I use it all the time. Is it typical to hook up some kind of external filter to a scope?
Does anybody know how fast the I can measure signals with the logic analyzer? The logic analyzer function is specked at 1Gsample/sec. How fast of a clock signal could I feed into this thing and actually see a square wave with a 50 percent duty cycle and correct frequency?
Finally what do you guys/girls think about the memory depth on the 2000 vs the 3000, is the memory depth on the 2000 sufficient?
Thanks, ill do a new member introduction post soon :-)
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I really need an oscilloscope. These look like a decent buy, but the 3000 ones are a bit pricey.
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Tektronix has recently put together a comparison of their DPO2000 series with the Agilent 2000-X series:
http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/pidownload.lotr?ct=PI&cs=cpc&ci=18196&lc=EN (http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/pidownload.lotr?ct=PI&cs=cpc&ci=18196&lc=EN)
They must have watched Dave's review. They include pictures of the Agilent display showing "XXX is not available on the InfinVision 2000 X-series oscilloscopes" :D
Competition is good! I hope it drives some more features into their lower-end scopes.
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Tektronix has recently put together a comparison of their DPO2000 series with the Agilent 2000-X series:
http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/pidownload.lotr?ct=PI&cs=cpc&ci=18196&lc=EN (http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/pidownload.lotr?ct=PI&cs=cpc&ci=18196&lc=EN)
They must have watched Dave's review. They include pictures of the Agilent display showing "XXX is not available on the InfinVision 2000 X-series oscilloscopes" :D
Competition is good! I hope it drives some more features into their lower-end scopes.
Is there a reason to keep them out? Are those features really that expensive?
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They seem to be scratching around for things that make theirs look better..
They even list Bus display mode for theirs, which Agilent also has (as shown further down!)
Memory depth seems the biggest difference - I think Agilent probably should have included more memory on the 2000 to make it more competitive.
No mention of update rate.....
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Is there a reason to keep them out? Are those features really that expensive?
They're expensive for you ;) You need to go with the much pricier Agilent 3000-X series to get them.
For Agilent, there is no physical hardware to add for these, just need to program software. Given that they've already done the programming on the similar 3000-X, it would probably be minimal effort to port to the 2000-X. So, the cost to Agilent is cheap.
It's all marketing, and we lose :(
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So Dave, when you putting the donated scope up in the competition ? You did say you was going to give away stuff that was sent to you for review... So where to i put my "Im in" message ?
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They seem to be scratching around for things that make theirs look better..
They even list Bus display mode for theirs, which Agilent also has (as shown further down!)
I think they're referring to decode of the serial bus, which the Agilent 2000 doesn't do.
Memory depth seems the biggest difference - I think Agilent probably should have included more memory on the 2000 to make it more competitive.
No mention of update rate.....
In addition to the memory weakness, I think the better triggering from the 3000 should have been included on the 2000 as well.
The Agilent is way faster for update rate, but the Tek is not bad for this price range: 5000 per second.
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Today I received my Agilent InfiniiVision DSO-X-2012A 2 Channel 100 MHz.
Looks and feel very nice.
Too sad I need to buy too many options, so far I have discovered that I need to buy the options for:
- Signal Generator
- Digital Channels
- No serial decode
and probably more that I will be discovering by the time.
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They seem to be scratching around for things that make theirs look better..
They even list Bus display mode for theirs, which Agilent also has (as shown further down!)
I think they're referring to decode of the serial bus, which the Agilent 2000 doesn't do.
Memory depth seems the biggest difference - I think Agilent probably should have included more memory on the 2000 to make it more competitive.
No mention of update rate.....
In addition to the memory weakness, I think the better triggering from the 3000 should have been included on the 2000 as well.
The Agilent is way faster for update rate, but the Tek is not bad for this price range: 5000 per second.
The 2000 has the exact same Megazoom ASIC chip as the 3000, so is actually capable of the same specs and functions
i.e. 1,000,000 wfm/s, all the serial decode, 4M memory etc
It is just software crippled to create a lower price point.
They left the serial decode button in place on the 2000 "just in case" they decide to enable it one day.
Dave.
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Today I received my Agilent InfiniiVision DSO-X-2012A 2 Channel 100 MHz.
Looks and feel very nice.
Too sad I need to buy too many options, so far I have discovered that I need to buy the options for:
- Signal Generator
- Digital Channels
- No serial decode
and probably more that I will be discovering by the time.
You can't buy serial decode on the 2000 series at this stage, it's not an option.
The other options you can play with by downloading the 14 day trial license key.
I heard a rumor that it may be worth playing with the system clock after you do that.
Dave.
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Maybe you should change to date before you download that! to say maybe a few years in the future ?
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Maybe you should change to date before you download that! to say maybe a few years in the future ?
Not possible, I set the time to 8:31 am instead of 8:31 pm, I didn't check the time format, and when tried to install the 14 days trial for the Wave Generator it complained about different time and didn't install.
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Here is a picture of my new scope !
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I like the scope but it looks so ugly with right bottom side not populated :)
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Yes, but well just for that I will not spend extra hundreds of dollars.
Time to look for cool stickers !
:P
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The blank area meant for channels 3/4 makes a good spot for post-it notes.
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The blank area meant for channels 3/4 makes a good spot for post-it notes.
Note to self, buy more underwear.
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The blank area meant for channels 3/4 makes a good spot for post-it notes.
Is there enough room to stick one of these on to get an extra channel?
(http://www.hps140.com/css/images/poster.jpg)
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I am just about to bite the bullet and get 3000 series 4 channel 200MHz Agilent.
I have a few questions because I can't get my head around some things.
Is MSO-X3024A the same as DSO-X3024A but with a set of logic probe clips?
I was hoping that MSO has at least SPI serial decoding enabled? I.e. it is not just two items packed in the same box and given a new name.
How in reality purchasing (un-crippling) upgrades work? Agilent website says that upgrade options have to be bought at the same time as the scope itself but none of UK distributors carry any DSOX3000 upgrades.
Many thanks
Leo
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I am just about to bite the bullet and get 3000 series 4 channel 200MHz Agilent.
I have a few questions because I can't get my head around some things.
Is MSO-X3024A the same as DSO-X3024A but with a set of logic probe clips?
I was hoping that MSO has at least SPI serial decoding enabled? I.e. it is not just two items packed in the same box and given a new name.
How in reality purchasing (un-crippling) upgrades work? Agilent website says that upgrade options have to be bought at the same time as the scope itself but none of UK distributors carry any DSOX3000 upgrades.
Many thanks
Leo
I believe the MSO has the logic analyser circuitry disabled so you can't just get a DSO and plug your own leads into it! You don't get any of the decodes for nothing, but you should be able to buy any of them at a later date because Agilent make a big thing of the series being upgradable. I think it is a bit of a rip-off when each and every decode is seperately charged for - could cost you a fortune if you wanted all of them!
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I believe the MSO has the logic analyser circuitry disabled so you can't just get a DSO and plug your own leads into it! You don't get any of the decodes for nothing, but you should be able to buy any of them at a later date because Agilent make a big thing of the series being upgradable. I think it is a bit of a rip-off when each and every decode is seperately charged for - could cost you a fortune if you wanted all of them!
So MSO = DSO + logic probes + unlocked analyser input?
I wish there were some DEMO or Pay-As-You-Go codes available. I would not mind paying e.g. £50 for SPI/I2C decoding option that works for a month or few weeks. Sometimes you need an extra option for just one specific project and paying £600 for one off use makes no sense (i.e. lost sale for Agilent). These things have become advanced enough for this sort of opportunities.
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I believe the MSO has the logic analyser circuitry disabled so you can't just get a DSO and plug your own leads into it! You don't get any of the decodes for nothing, but you should be able to buy any of them at a later date because Agilent make a big thing of the series being upgradable. I think it is a bit of a rip-off when each and every decode is seperately charged for - could cost you a fortune if you wanted all of them!
So MSO = DSO + logic probes + unlocked analyser input?
I wish the were some DEMO or Pay-As-You-Go codes available. I would not mind paying e.g. £50 for SPI/I2C decoding option that works for a month or few weeks. Sometimes you need an extra option for just one specific project and paying £600 for one off use makes no sense (i.e. lost sale for Agilent). These things have become advanced enough for this sort of opportunities.
There are 14-day evaluation licenses for many of the options, but a bit hidden on the website - find the product page for the option, e.g. UART (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/download.jspx?cc=GB&lc=eng&nid=-35491.970769&pageMode=DL) and look for 'get a 14-day trial licence'.
Hopefully Agilent have streamlined the upgarde process since I upgraded the mem on my MSO6000 : Place enquiry on website, wait 2 days for call from sales guy, get piece of paper fedexed from USA, enter number on said paper on website to get key to enter into scope - total time about a week.
May be worth checking if upgrade price is more than price installed from new. May also be worth talking to distributor & humming & harring over whether to get the MSO to see if any discounts are forthcoming to swing the deal.
BTW I just noticed thay have released a software update (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/download.jspx?cc=GB&lc=eng&nid=-33573.970736&pageMode=DL)
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BTW I just noticed thay have released a software update (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/download.jspx?cc=GB&lc=eng&nid=-33573.970736&pageMode=DL)
Nice catch!
- CAN baud rate now supports up to 5 Mbits/s
Interesting, I have never seen CAN bus with speeds above 1Mbps.
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BTW I just noticed thay have released a software update (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/download.jspx?cc=GB&lc=eng&nid=-33573.970736&pageMode=DL)
I saw that this afternoon. I already requested their u-boot source code since it's GPL (very quick unpack shows they use it as bootloader and it's custom modified).
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I just found this page with all the trial licenses on it (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2014548&nid=-35491.973678&id=2014548)
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So MSO = DSO + logic probes + unlocked analyser input?
Correct. If you buy the DSO and then "upgrade" to MSO later, they ship you the leads and license.
I wish there were some DEMO or Pay-As-You-Go codes available. I would not mind paying e.g. £50 for SPI/I2C decoding option that works for a month or few weeks. Sometimes you need an extra option for just one specific project and paying £600 for one off use makes no sense (i.e. lost sale for Agilent). These things have become advanced enough for this sort of opportunities.
You can download a timed trial of the options, so you get the full functionality for 14(?) days.
I agree that the rental model could work and would be good, they have everything in place for it. Shame they haven't done it.
Dave.
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Maybe you should change to date before you download that! to say maybe a few years in the future ?
Not possible, I set the time to 8:31 am instead of 8:31 pm, I didn't check the time format, and when tried to install the 14 days trial for the Wave Generator it complained about different time and didn't install.
this is what JTAG is for ... you should make a fw/NAND dump, use 14 days ... restore, use another 14 days .. only gues but probably it will work.
BTW I just noticed thay have released a software update (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/download.jspx?cc=GB&lc=eng&nid=-33573.970736&pageMode=DL)
yep, i love it, all files compiled with debug information. Maybe I should ask Agilent how much they will pay
to prevent me from hack publishing ? Anyway, can't prove without hardware and trial license here
(and my "master" Eva said "no reason for another one scope, but a new kitchen"). Sooner or later someone else will post it anyway.
Interessting to see that there is 1M memory option already compiled, so probably as future option for DSOX2000.
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Interessting to see that there is 1M memory option already compiled, so probably as future option for DSOX2000.
That sounds interesting!!! Where did you find this?
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Interessting to see that there is 1M memory option already compiled, so probably as future option for DSOX2000.
That sounds interesting!!! Where did you find this?
in the firmware, infiniiVisionCore.dll (which btw. is handling most licensing part - that's where you can force by patchiing some licences,
the another part is in Agilent.Cdf.Api.dll which defines the license storage, which is a clean way to define license - that's for those who whish to play a bit dangerous game)
"4Mpts 2Mpts 1Mpts 100Kpts Memory License" - i gues as 2Mpts is the lowest license value for DSOX3xxx the 1Mpts will be for DSOX2xxx.
And btw, Dave was right, IsExpired is calling license info (where the expiration date is stored) and System.DateTime::get_Today, so actually the date
trick should work for trail licences (and if not set always false for IsExpired)
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this is what JTAG is for ... you should make a fw/NAND dump, use 14 days ... restore, use another 14 days .. only gues but probably it will work.
This sort of temporary licensing usually has time limits embedded in a code that then checked against RTC time. NAND dump won't alter the RTC time.
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Interessting to see that there is 1M memory option already compiled, so probably as future option for DSOX2000.
That sounds interesting!!! Where did you find this?
Is it not the case that the 2000 and 3000 use the same firmware ? If so then presence of other options in the FW doesn't necessarily imply the hardware is actually capable of it.
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this is what JTAG is for ... you should make a fw/NAND dump, use 14 days ... restore, use another 14 days .. only gues but probably it will work.
This sort of temporary licensing usually has time limits embedded in a code that then checked against RTC time. NAND dump won't alter the RTC time.
I can think of some ways to slow down the RTC though, assuming the crystal is accessible... Even if it checked it while running, there's no way it can know how long it has been switched off, so a 14 day licence could probably become a 14 days' run-time..
BTW where are those hi-res internal pics Dave?
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this is what JTAG is for ... you should make a fw/NAND dump, use 14 days ... restore, use another 14 days .. only gues but probably it will work.
This sort of temporary licensing usually has time limits embedded in a code that then checked against RTC time. NAND dump won't alter the RTC time.
no actually not, but a full NAND dump (with OOB blocks) before trial has been installed will have no evidence of "already used once the license".
However there license/sn cross check and Agilent will probably not generate twice licences for same sn.
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Interessting to see that there is 1M memory option already compiled, so probably as future option for DSOX2000.
That sounds interesting!!! Where did you find this?
Is it not the case that the 2000 and 3000 use the same firmware ? If so then presence of other options in the FW doesn't necessarily imply the hardware is actually capable of it.
oh yeah, that's the big "if". From a production point of view probably the same ASIC, but you never know exactly.
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oh yeah, that's the big "if". From a production point of view probably the same ASIC, but you never know exactly.
Something that would make sense is that all that on-die memory is present ... but at a later stage, if they determine that some of it is 'bad' / corrupted, they then use the die for the 2000 series instead of the 3000 series. (kind of like with cache on CPU). It would make sense since all those transistors would probably take up a good chunk of the silicon.
(purely a supposition tough ... you'd need to remove the heatsinks on 2000 & 3000 to at least compare part numbers)
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Anyone noticed the file FPGA4000A.bin inside the update files?
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Anyone noticed the file FPGA4000A.bin inside the update files?
yeah, i was wondering too. FPGA3000A and FPGA2000A from second cab are exact the same as these from "main" cab,
the FPGA4000A seems to be common for both (no, it's not) or just copied by mistake (as there are no DSOX4000 DSOs available yet).
So Dave, when you will get the DSOX4000 ?
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the FPGA4000A seems to be common for both (no, it's not) or just copied by mistake (as there are no DSOX4000 DSOs available yet).
So Dave, when you will get the DSOX4000 ?
He already had it. It just needed a $50,000 licence to unlock. ;D
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Hmm.. why would someone include a program (AgilentConfidential_SecureDataTool_DTD.exe) with this output in a public firmware upgrade?
DO NOT DISTRIBUTE THIS TOOL This tool is for Agilent internal order
fulfillment use only. DO NOT distribute this tool outside of Agilent
or to end-users. DO NOT install this tool on any instrument. Refer to
the CompactToolsUsersGuide.chm for detailed tool usage information.
CAUTION
LOSS OF LICENSE(S) IS POSSIBLE. Successfully executing of any of the
Initialize or Clear commands will delete all previously stored
instrument licenses from the instrument's License Store.
After initializing or changing a model number or serial number, it is
recommended that you reboot the instrument. Licensing calls may not
function correctly until you reboot.
DESCRIPTION
This tool sets the model number and serial number for an instrument
made by the Agilent division <client> listed in the tool name (for
example, CTD or SPD). This tool will not work with an instrument made
by any other Agilent division.
The Initialize-ModelNumber command (see CAUTION above) sets the
instrument model number only if the model number has not already been
initialized. If the model number has been initialized, executing this
command causes an error. (The Clear-ModelNumber command, described
below, will set the model number to an uninitialized state.)
The Initialize-SerialNumber command (see CAUTION above) sets the
instrument serial number only if the serial number has not already
been initialized. If the serial number has been initialized,
executing this command causes an error. (The Clear-SerialNumber
command, described below, will set the serial number to an
uninitialized state.)
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Hmm.. why would someone include a program (AgilentConfidential_SecureDataTool_DTD.exe) with this output in a public firmware upgrade?
a) error
b) sneaky way to put people off the scent & waste hackers' time?
Whether or not this suddenly disappears may give a clue as to which...
this is what JTAG is for ... you should make a fw/NAND dump, use 14 days ... restore, use another 14 days .. only gues but probably it will work.
Assuming the license info is in there - it could be in battery-backed RAM. Or if they were being really sneaky, buried in the ASIC somehow.
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So Dave, when you will get the DSOX4000 ?
Never heard of such a beast.
Dave.
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Where are you guys seeing the securedatatool.exe thing and the dll with the IsExpired functions? I downloaded the firmware and don't see either of those in the .cab file. I'd be willing to investigate a firmware "workaround" for the ridiculously priced features the scope is capable of if someone could push me in the right direction. Not being able to find the files makes it hard to get started.
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I am very confused. Compare these two lists of option for MSOX3024A and DSOX3024A:
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?cc=GB&lc=eng&nid=-33573.970756&pageMode=OP (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?cc=GB&lc=eng&nid=-33573.970756&pageMode=OP)
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?cc=GB&lc=eng&nid=-33573.970757&pageMode=OP (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?cc=GB&lc=eng&nid=-33573.970757&pageMode=OP)
There are some differences between the options starting from the fact that they have completely different part numbers and finishing with e.g. MIL-STD-1553 serial decoding not being available for MSOX3000 model. :-\
Few more interesting things from http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-6619EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-6619EN.pdf)
Compatible with PC offline viewing B4610A: http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?nid=-536902514.753489.00&lc=eng&cc=US (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?nid=-536902514.753489.00&lc=eng&cc=US)
InfiniiVision 3000 X-Series bandwidth upgrade products (=unlock licences):
DSOX3BW32 (Bandwidth upgrade from 100 MHz to 350 MHz on 2 channel models),
DSOX3BW52 (Bandwidth upgrade from 350 MHz to 500 MHz on 2 channel models),
DSOX3BW24 (Bandwidth upgrade from 100 MHz to 200 MHz on 4 channel models),
DSOX3BW34 (Bandwidth upgrade from 200 MHz to 350 MHz on 4 channel models),
DSOX3BW54 (Bandwidth upgrade from 350 MHz to 500 MHz on 4 channel models).
??? Does this sound like cumulative upgrade from 100 to 500 is possible!?
I thought somebody stated that 100 and 200MHz versions use different PCB from 350+ MHz models.
This is getting more and more interesting...
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True, but the whole board replacement sounds like an expensive method for a “fully upgradable scope” and what happens with the old board? The lower models also come with a different set of probes included.
Where are you guys seeing the securedatatool.exe thing
Inside the first .cab file you will find infiniiVisionSetup.cab. Extract this and read _setup.xml to find the original files names (just rename, no compression is used)
AGILEN~1.002 -> Agilent.Cdf.Api.dll
INFINI~1.017 -> infiniiVisionCore.dll
Open the infiniiVisionCore.dll with a resource editor like PE Explorer to extract the secure data tool. Agilent.Cdf.Api.dll seems to be where the license info is checked and has 2 1024 bit (public) keys. The private key of one can be found in the secure tool.
E: 0x10001
P: 57...
Q: vi...
N: rB.......
D: lv.......
Not going to dig any deeper, I don’t even have the scope. Maybe if I had a few beers before seeing Dave’s review I had one by now ;D
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InfiniiVision 3000 X-Series bandwidth upgrade products (=unlock licences):
DSOX3BW32 (Bandwidth upgrade from 100 MHz to 350 MHz on 2 channel models),
DSOX3BW52 (Bandwidth upgrade from 350 MHz to 500 MHz on 2 channel models),
DSOX3BW24 (Bandwidth upgrade from 100 MHz to 200 MHz on 4 channel models),
DSOX3BW34 (Bandwidth upgrade from 200 MHz to 350 MHz on 4 channel models),
DSOX3BW54 (Bandwidth upgrade from 350 MHz to 500 MHz on 4 channel models).
??? Does this sound like cumulative upgrade from 100 to 500 is possible!?
I thought somebody stated that 100 and 200MHz versions use different PCB from 350+ MHz models.
I have it on the highest authority that the 350MHz/500MHz main board is different from the 100/200MHz model.
I believe you can "upgrade" from 100MHz to 500MHz, but you have to send the scope back and they will actually replace the main board.
Dave.
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True, but the whole board replacement sounds like an expensive method for a “fully upgradable scope” and what happens with the old board? The lower models also come with a different set of probes included.
Correct, different probes.
Agilent actually expect few if any people to upgrade from the 100MHz to the 500MHz.
And few to even upgrade the software bandwidth options for that matter.
It's essentially a marketing gimmick designed to make you feel better that your scope can be upgraded.
Dave.
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I still have a problem justifying that essentially the same hardware is sold with fivefold price differential.
$3,380 for DSOX3014A (100MHz 4ch basic model)
$18,000 for MSOX3054A (500MHz 4ch + 16 digital ch) with all crippleware options enabled :o
This makes me think that the hardware manufacturing cost is probably about $1000. I don't believe that DSOX3014 would be sold at a loss so let's assume it still makes Agilent some money.
But asking $15K for purely software options?! I don't believe this is justified.
I have a sneaky suspicion that 200MHz main board is not much different from 500MHz...
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A product is more than some components on a pcb, software doesn’t magically appear. Any idea how much money they put in the R&D of these things? If you compare the prices with others scope’s then its not expensive.
Also, the firmware doesn't have a BW35 option probably meaning 350Mhz is the minimum bandwidth for that board (just like Dave said):
enhTvTrig_3k
bw20_3k
bw50_3k
mso_3k
am4M_3k
MemMax_3k
fpgaProbe_3k
fpgaAltera_3k
lsSerDecode_3k
amSerDecode_3k
232SerDecode_3k
i2sSerDecode_3k
power_3k
distributor_3k
wavegen_3k
segmentedMem_3k
limitMask_3k
distributor_2k
education
wavegen_2k
segmentedMem_2k
limitMask_2k
bw10_2k
bw20_2k
enhTvTrig_2k
232SerDecode_2k
lsSerDecode_2k
amSerDecode_2k
i2sSerDecode_2k
mso_2k
Notice the serial decode options for the 2000 series
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I still have a problem justifying that essentially the same hardware is sold with fivefold price differential.
$3,380 for DSOX3014A (100MHz 4ch basic model)
$18,000 for MSOX3054A (500MHz 4ch + 16 digital ch) with all crippleware options enabled :o
The 350/500MHz model uses a more expensive front end, so they aren't the same. You can only compare the 350MHz/4 channel DSO.
But yes, everything else is the same.
Even the 2000 series uses the exact same Megazoom and ADC ASIC as the 3000 (and technically has the same capabilities)
They have to recoup their massive R&D cost without wiping out the scaled market for scope capabilities (which would be bad for every manufacturer)
Dave.
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Even the 2000 series uses the exact same Megazoom and ADC ASIC as the 3000 (and technically has the same capabilities)
Not quite - the 3000 has a bigger FPGA. Can't see (until we see some high-res pics) if the SDRAM attatched to the ASIC is thet same size on the 2 models, though it's not entirely clear exactly what functionality either of the above are used for.
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Not quite - the 3000 has a bigger FPGA. Can't see (until we see some high-res pics) if the SDRAM attatched to the ASIC is thet same size on the 2 models, though it's not entirely clear exactly what functionality either of the above are used for.
I had a look inside one of the files in the update. It had a code like this:
if x == 0 then s = "DS2000A"
else if x == 1 then s = "DS3000A"
else if x == 2 then s = "DS4000A"
else s = "DS0000A"
endif
Maybe something is cooking!
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Not quite - the 3000 has a bigger FPGA. Can't see (until we see some high-res pics) if the SDRAM attatched to the ASIC is thet same size on the 2 models, though it's not entirely clear exactly what functionality either of the above are used for.
I had a look inside one of the files in the update. It had a code like this:
if x == 0 then s = "DS2000A"
else if x == 1 then s = "DS3000A"
else if x == 2 then s = "DS4000A"
else s = "DS0000A"
endif
Maybe something is cooking!
I wouldn't read too much into that - it could simply be that there is an in-house development platform with extra debug functions etc.
Although the new series replaces the 5000 and 6000 series, but not the 7000 which is very similar to the 6000, so maybe there is a 7000 replacement based on the new hardware in the works.
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Even the 2000 series uses the exact same Megazoom and ADC ASIC as the 3000 (and technically has the same capabilities)
Not quite - the 3000 has a bigger FPGA. Can't see (until we see some high-res pics) if the SDRAM attatched to the ASIC is thet same size on the 2 models, though it's not entirely clear exactly what functionality either of the above are used for.
True, but the ASIC's are the same, and that's where most of the magic happens. The 2000 series is quite capable of 4M memory, 1000000wfm/s, serial decode etc on that ASIC.
Still not entirely sure what the FPGA or the other stuff does as you said.
Dave.
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The bin 3k & 4k bin files are double the size of the 2k FPGA so changing your model the a higher board might make your scope unusable. Same when you try to trick the 2 ch version in thinking it has 4 channels.
Can anyone with a scope verify if it has a FTP server running?
Ohw and it looks like there is a 1GHz with 5GSa model :)
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unfortunately i don't have such DSO here so can't play arround. A EVALSPEAr600 boards costs 1800USD, that's too much.
Custom 4-6 layer board with SPEAr600, NAND/NOT/EEPROM would costs much less, the SoC costs only 20USD.
A full backup of NAND/NOR/EEPROM (yes, there is eeprom on the DSO board with important informations) could work
on such DIY SPEAr600 board - the question is who will start to play on real DSO or at least on a SPEAr600 dev board.
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Getting 14 day trial licence turned out to be trivial.
You fill in online form with your details, scope model and S/N and licence arrives via e-mail in a few minutes.
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Game over, someone made a big mistake including the securedata tool ;)
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Game over, someone made a big mistake including the securedata tool ;)
Tell us more, I may have to go buy one now.
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I think the issue with the waveform generator is mainly the price/perfomance ratio, you can buy a pretty good stand-alone function generator for the $400 or so they charge for it, probably with more features.
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Game over, someone made a big mistake including the securedata tool ;)
Tell us more, I may have to go buy one now.
I was about to buy a 3000 series, but I'm going to hold off until he finishes that thought.
Of course if there is a potential 'issue' with scopes already at dealers, that might be exactly the wrong thing to do.... ;)
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I think the issue with the waveform generator is mainly the price/perfomance ratio, you can buy a pretty good stand-alone function generator for the $400 or so they charge for it, probably with more features.
Yes, it's more a value for money thing.
It only lacks ARB and external/internal modulation capability.
Apart from that, I love the convenience of it, and it works great.
Dave.
-
Still, for that kind of money (and even more - for the same generator - in the 3000 series), you'd think they could include a sweep function. Geez ::)
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Still, for that kind of money (and even more - for the same generator - in the 3000 series), you'd think they could include a sweep function. Geez ::)
It's all about internal politics and protecting their function gen market of course.
The function gen is actually a full dual channel arb and is quite capable of doing a lot more, look at the training signals as an example.
Dave.
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I have noticed that software engineers refer to the ASICs as "Baldwin." Is this a codename for custom silicon?
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Ok, here is some simplified C# source code explaining how the signature is verified.
RSAParameters RSAParam = new RSAParameters(); // Need to recover this yourself
Guid DivisionID = new Guid("{00000000-1111-2222-3333-444444444444}"); // Need to recover this yourself
string HWModelNumber = "DSOX1234A";
string HWSerialNumber = "AB12345678";
Guid LicenseId = new Guid("{00000000-1111-2222-3333-444444444444}");
string FeatureName = "dummy";
string FeatureVersion = "1";
DateTime? ExpirationDate = new System.DateTime(2011, 3, 30);
string ProductNumber = "DSOXDMY";
string Signature = "OZrKwpbZq3Oxp8eXebGo190UAYvLMFeyNvs7xCA0oAwDmPP3aV2azu+XFTViLzdYlazEETTJE9knLD7wJJovot3b+iQPgeTk0i8f5IpAdx21ncdJIDjIvi+Ail/mQggRKZLaBZeWF3JWSJ/OTA3jmpti/Qg1sNg3iTdroYzHfbI=";
string s = string.Format(CultureInfo.InvariantCulture, "{0}{1}{2}{3}{4}{5:R}{6:yyyyMMdd}{7}",
new object[] { DivisionID, HWModelNumber, HWSerialNumber, LicenseId, FeatureName, FeatureVersion, ExpirationDate, ProductNumber});
using (RSACryptoServiceProvider RSA = new RSACryptoServiceProvider())
{
using (SHA1CryptoServiceProvider SHA1 = new SHA1CryptoServiceProvider())
{
RSA.ImportParameters(RSAParam);
if (RSA.VerifyData( Encoding.UTF8.GetBytes(s), SHA1, Convert.FromBase64String(Signature) ))
{
MessageBox.Show("Jep! :)");
}
else
{
MessageBox.Show("Nope");
}
}
}
The RSA paramaters & DivisionID are missing on purpose, you need to recover them yourself. Please don’t ask me how to use this code for something else or what the missing variables are, I won’t help. My goal always is to check if it can be done, not to share a solution ready to go for everyone. If you need something for work -> BUY IT!
Remember that you can forget about warranty & support if things go wrong.
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I have noticed that software engineers refer to the ASICs as "Baldwin." Is this a codename for custom silicon?
Custom chips often have internal code-names, which occasionally leak outside the company.
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Also, the firmware doesn't have a BW35 option probably meaning 350Mhz is the minimum bandwidth for that board (just like Dave said):
enhTvTrig_3k
bw20_3k
bw50_3k
mso_3k
am4M_3k
MemMax_3k
fpgaProbe_3k
fpgaAltera_3k
lsSerDecode_3k
amSerDecode_3k
232SerDecode_3k
i2sSerDecode_3k
power_3k
distributor_3k
wavegen_3k
segmentedMem_3k
limitMask_3k
distributor_2k
education
wavegen_2k
segmentedMem_2k
limitMask_2k
bw10_2k
bw20_2k
enhTvTrig_2k
232SerDecode_2k
lsSerDecode_2k
amSerDecode_2k
i2sSerDecode_2k
mso_2k
Interesting information! Where did you get this list from?
I am curious as to what these options mean?
enhTvTrig_3k Enhanced TV trigger? What is it?
am4M_3k Is this 4Mpts option called DSOX3MemUp in the datasheet (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-6619EN.pdf)?
MemMax_3k ?? ?? ?? No idea
fpgaProbe_3k FPGA Dynamic Probe for Xilinx like on 7000 models (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5965EN.pdf)?
fpgaAltera_3k FPGA Dynamic Probe for Altera like on 7000 models (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5941EN.pdf)?
power_3k Is this a sort of key to unlock U1881A Power Measurement Application (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-7835EN.pdf) on a PC?
distributor_3k Auto Demo mode (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-6658EN.pdf) ?
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Interesting information! Where did you get this list from?
It's in the firmware. I'm disappointed there's no built in option for memory relating to the 2k. If the HW is capable it would probably need a fw upgrade.
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@Dave: Could you do high res images of the VGA module, both sides ? (preferrably with some dimensions reference as well)
I'd like to make a "clone" with just the LAN ... but obviously there has to be some way for the scope to identify the module. I also know that the scope will load the FPGA image itself and wait for the DONE pin to rise.
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@Dave: Could you do high res images of the VGA module, both sides ? (preferrably with some dimensions reference as well)
I'd like to make a "clone" with just the LAN ... but obviously there has to be some way for the scope to identify the module.
There are few enough module types that my bet would be either a few pins used as hard-coded IDs linked to ground differently for different modules,or each function (LAN,VGA,GPIB), or a single pin with different resistor values for different module types.
Not totally implausible that it detects the FPGA, but my guess is they wouldn't want to rule out the possibility of a LAN-only module in future.
As the FPGA is only for VGA out, it is probably an output-only peripheral (unless they use monitor ID..) so may be feasible to fake the configuration handshake if necessary.
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I think it's a hardcoded ID, but need to find it :)
It can't be the FPGA because it's not loaded yet. The code clearly gets the type of device, and then selects the appropriate image and loads the FPGA. It then waits for the 'DONE' bit to go high. (so you'd have to simulate the DONE bit going high, but that's easy).
I got images from the video, compensated perspective and lined them up. Now, just need to run them through de-pcb. (obviously I don't have the internal layers so there will be guess work).
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The scope IDs external modules by reading their FPGA signatures.
Yes, the LAN/VGA FPGA will get updated when you [re]install the system firmware update but for this it has to be identified first.
I don't know if FPGA has a sort of protected area that does not get updated. Then it's a bit more complicated.
Maybe LAN module gets inited regardless of LAN card presence? It would be great but it's hardly likely.
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The scope IDs external modules by reading their FPGA signatures.
? What makes you think that ?
1) Those FPGAs are SRAM based, they loose their configuration at each power down and there is no external configuration flash on the module, so the scope _HAS_ to load their configuraton at each boot. And to load the correct one, it has to have identified the module type _BEFORE_.
2) You could imaginge that the scope reads the FPGA model by JTAG but since both board have the exact same FPGA, this is not possible to differentiate them that way.
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The scope IDs external modules by reading their FPGA signatures.
? What makes you think that ?
1) Those FPGAs are SRAM based, they loose their configuration at each power down and there is no external configuration flash on the module, so the scope _HAS_ to load their configuraton at each boot. And to load the correct one, it has to have identified the module type _BEFORE_.
It is possible to read the FPGA type though.
2) You could imaginge that the scope reads the FPGA model by JTAG but since both board have the exact same FPGA, this is not possible to differentiate them that way.
Have you seen the inside of the GPIB module then? It probably would make sense for it to use an FPGA as many GPIB chips are obsolete - not sure of there are any in current production,and even if so probably not in 3.3v logic.
Bear in mind that it doesn't actually need to do anything specific to the LAN I/F depending on if it's present or not, as it's just a magjack, so if not present it just won't ever see any packets.
-
Have you seen the inside of the GPIB module then? It probably would make sense for it to use an FPGA as many GPIB chips are obsolete - not sure of there are any in current production,and even if so probably not in 3.3v logic.
No but I've seen the software logic inside the scope and the FPGA configuration file (.bit) for both the GPIB and LAN/VGA module.
Bear in mind that it doesn't actually need to do anything specific to the LAN I/F depending on if it's present or not, as it's just a magjack, so if not present it just won't ever see any packets.
Yes, but I think the options for LAN would be grayed out in the menu. (just a guess... If someone with an actual device could confirm it would be nice).
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Yes, but I think the options for LAN would be grayed out in the menu. (just a guess... If someone with an actual device could confirm it would be nice).
When LAN/VGA module is absent you have no access to any LAN menus. They are not greyed out, they simply disappear.
-
Just took another look at Dave's video.
On the assumption that it's a pullup/pulldown pin, it may not be that hard to figure out which are the ID pin or pins.
From the video you can pretty much see which pins are likely to be ground or power, as there is only a short track with a via to an inner plane.
Meter out these pins on the scope to eliminate all those that are actually power and ground, and you're probably only left with few enough to do some trial & error with pulldowns to see if any make the LAN manus appear - I don't know to what extent an ethernet MAC can tell if its magjack is disconnected, although this may give a helpful selftest failure message.
-
Yup, already on it :p
See:
http://www.246tnt.com/files/lan-rgb.png (http://www.246tnt.com/files/lan-rgb.png)
-
I'll put up the high res photos of the module and scope in the next day or two, super busy right now!
Dave.
-
Great, can you also show whats inside the logic probe?
-
Logic probe pad case is held together with two rivets. They need drilling out.
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I think the probes are just their usual 40 pin POD, so it should just be a 90kOhm resitor from the connector to the probe ...
The voltage comparators are obviously in the scope.
But yeah, confirming it would be nice.
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I think the probes are just their usual 40 pin POD, so it should just be a 90kOhm resitor from the connector to the probe ...
The voltage comparators are obviously in the scope.
But yeah, confirming it would be nice.
If this helps, they measure 90.0kOhms from pod socket to the connector on signal line and 0R on the GND line.
-
Yes thanks.
Do you have a pinout by anychance ?
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im getting a 3000 series this week. i am willing to hack mine if someone is willing to help me do it.
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I've got a low-end 2000 waiting for me when I finish up my day job. I'm going to try unlocking everything just to prove it can be done, then I'll probably remove the licenses as I don't technically need them (if I needed them, I'd buy them - besides which, I won't have the relevant probes for the 200Mhz or MSO options).
Sorry in advance, but I also won't be giving out any keys or specifics about how to do this. All the relevant information is already out there and just needs putting together by anyone wanting to do this themselves.
-
Have any one confirmed that they have hack it? or is it still officially "unhacked"? (I will get my 2000 this week so i'm a bit excited :D)
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I ordered my DSOX3024A few days ago with few options (function generator, help system...). The delivery time is 8 weeks, when it arrives i can do any teardown or whatever needed to help community to crack it :)
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I ordered my DSOX3024A few days ago with few options (function generator, help system...). The delivery time is 8 weeks, when it arrives i can do any teardown or whatever needed to help community to crack it :)
What's "help system?" Is this educational licence option?
I have basic MSOX3024A version and I am really happy with it.
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Yes its help on the functions of scope and training signals. Its called education option
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I ordered my DSOX3024A few days ago with few options (function generator, help system...). The delivery time is 8 weeks, when it arrives i can do any teardown or whatever needed to help community to crack it :)
Do you really think they won't have plugged the hole in 8 weeks' time...?
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I'm interested to see what Agilent's response is. In some respects it might be better for them to quietly do nothing - having a security hole like this is unlikely to have much impact with any corporate buyers - they're not going to mess about with dodgy license keys. Meanwhile the unit is more attractive to hobbyists who are otherwise not going to splash out on the expensive options and without the existance of a hack would just buy a cheaper scope from another source. So in the current situation, they might shift more units.
On the other hand, no-one likes to look like an idiot... so maybe they'll fix it just to save face.
Plus I'm intruiged to see *how* they plan on plugging the hole. Seems like introducing a new key would mean a firmware update, and they don't look awfully well protected. So existing units might remain hackable, provided people aren't too trigger happy in updating them. Indeed unless there's a serious problem in the current firmware, or they enable some extra features, there's probably little point updating.
-
Plus I'm intruiged to see *how* they plan on plugging the hole. Seems like introducing a new key would mean a firmware update, and they don't look awfully well protected. So existing units might remain hackable, provided people aren't too trigger happy in updating them. Indeed unless there's a serious problem in the current firmware, or they enable some extra features, there's probably little point updating.
Yes but there probably aren't many scopes out there yet. If they plug the hole soon with a new update, which could completely change how future updates work, they limit any long-term damage. There is nothing they can do for units already out there, but they could also encourage updates of older units by offering some nice new features.
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Do you really think they won't have plugged the hole in 8 weeks' time...?
Not sure, basically i bought all options i need. Except the MemUp option...
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Check out this fully kitted DSO-X 3014A ugly duckling. :o
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I think they may not bother to "fix" previous version of the scope if the hack doesn't get "out of control" like the one for the Rigol did, hence "bragging" might not be the best option.
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I ordered my DSOX3024A few days ago with few options (function generator, help system...). The delivery time is 8 weeks...
I have also decided on the 200MHz 4 Channel version but MSO one as I am mostly designing digital stuff.
RS Components have a few of each models in stock but unfortunately they don't have any options to go with them.
So I decided to get one now (life is short!)
How much did you have to pay for the options when ordered preinstalled?
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I have spoken face to face with Agilent sales people and they've told me the upgrades do not have a premium if you do them later except bandwidth. If you upgrade bandwidth after the sale of the scope, you pay the cost of the upgrade + 20%.
Also, just to be clear, the lower end bandwidth is software upgradeable until you get to 350MHz or 500MHz. Those require a new board. Dave said this earlier so I'm just reiterating.
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Yes, the options don't cost more afterwards. The bandwidth probably cost more because they ship you new probes to go with it I guess ?
And the 200 -> 350 MHz transition is pretty steep ... 3500 eur !!!
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I don't know if they send you new probes as I forgot to ask. The upgrade becomes far more expensive if you have to buy new probes as well.
The 20% is purely a fee. It is not meant to cover any part of the upgrade.
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Check out this fully kitted DSO-X 3014A ugly duckling. :o
Did you do some magic or did you pay for it? if you paid, what was the price? (except half your soul) ;)
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Just a little bit of info - while there seems to be references to serial decode/trigger licenses for the 2k series in the firmware, it doesn't seem to work if you make a license. I guess they're disabled elsewhere.
No big deal for me, but worth bearing in mind if anyone is thinking of cutting corners and needs those features - either go for the 3000 series or wait and hope there's a new firmware at some stage.
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I don't know if they send you new probes as I forgot to ask. The upgrade becomes far more expensive if you have to buy new probes as well.
Yes, they would almost certainly ship you new probes as well, that's one reason why the upgrade is so expensive.
Like the MSO option, they will ship you the probes if you buy the option.
Dave.
-
Yes looking at the code it's like that :
if (model == 2000) {
if (checkLicense('feature 1')) {
... enable feature 1 ...
}
...
if (YYYY) {
if (checkLicense('feature serial 232')) {
... enable feature serial 232 ...
}
if (checkLicense('feature serial i2s')) {
... enable feature serial i2s ...
}
...
}
} else if (mode == 3000) {
if (checkLicense('feature 1')) {
... enable feature 1 ...
}
if (checkLicense('feature 2')) {
... enable feature 2 ...
}
if (checkLicense('feature serial 232')) {
... enable feature serial 232 ...
}
if (checkLicense('feature serial i2s')) {
... enable feature serial i2s ...
}
...
} else {
/* WTF, error ? */
}
(note the extra condition if (YYY) for serial in the 2000 case)
I don't know what that YYY is for sure yet and if you can enable it somehow (else than forcing the if by modifying the code of course)
-
Yes looking at the code it's like that :
...
(note the extra condition if (YYY) for serial in the 2000 case)
I don't know what that YYY is for sure yet and if you can enable it somehow (else than forcing the if by modifying the code of course)
Interesting. I haven't really poked into the code any more than to extract what was necessary and have a general look around.
I might have to have a deeper look at it, as it seems there's some more interesting things to find.
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Check out this fully kitted DSO-X 3014A ugly duckling. :o
Did you do some magic or did you pay for it? if you paid, what was the price? (except half your soul) ;)
Loan demo units usually have all the bells & whistles enabled so could have been one of those.
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Loan demo units usually have all the bells & whistles enabled so could have been one of those.
It used to be just basic DSO-X 3014A.
-
Yes looking at the code it's like that :
if (model == 2000) {
if (checkLicense('feature 1')) {
... enable feature 1 ...
}
...
if (YYYY) {
if (checkLicense('feature serial 232')) {
... enable feature serial 232 ...
}
if (checkLicense('feature serial i2s')) {
... enable feature serial i2s ...
}
...
}
} else if (mode == 3000) {
if (checkLicense('feature 1')) {
... enable feature 1 ...
}
if (checkLicense('feature 2')) {
... enable feature 2 ...
}
if (checkLicense('feature serial 232')) {
... enable feature serial 232 ...
}
if (checkLicense('feature serial i2s')) {
... enable feature serial i2s ...
}
...
} else {
/* WTF, error ? */
}
(note the extra condition if (YYY) for serial in the 2000 case)
I don't know what that YYY is for sure yet and if you can enable it somehow (else than forcing the if by modifying the code of course)
Of course IF (very big IF!) you can make it run modified code, then the whole license key/encryption thing is pretty much irrelevant ;)
-
Yes obviously, that's why tracing what that condition is exactly and if it can be enabled without code changes is relevant.
The fw files are all signed, so you can't just patch the fw update and upload that, the scope will (should) reject it as corrupted.
-
Of course IF (very big IF!) you can make it run modified code, then the whole license key/encryption thing is pretty much irrelevant ;)
I'm itching to try that, but I'm drawing the line at installing licenses until there's a known way of restoring a bricked scope...
-
These Windows CE scopes actually worry me. I don't understand them. I want the same functionality but based around low integration logic ICs or at least FPGAs. ;D
There must be a Registry somewhere in there growing slowly. And you don't get Win CE reinstall CDs with them! ???
-
I'm impressed with how quickly all of you figured out how to do this. I've PMed only a few of you and I appreciate the help, but I think this is just over my head. I've downloaded 7 programs between what was suggested in this thread and in PMs, but still haven't found the secure data tool or how to extract it. I'm starting to think you are all collaborating to confuse me.
-
Just a little bit of info - while there seems to be references to serial decode/trigger licenses for the 2k series in the firmware, it doesn't seem to work if you make a license. I guess they're disabled elsewhere.
Yes, I can confirm that trying to enable serial decode on the 2000 series does not work.
Dave.
-
(note the extra condition if (YYY) for serial in the 2000 case)
I don't know what that YYY is for sure yet and if you can enable it somehow (else than forcing the if by modifying the code of course)
I wonder if this could be FPGA size. Perhaps serial decode needs the larger FPGA of the 3000, which they might decide to fit on the 2000 in future. From memory, the only main logic functionality changes between the 2000 and 3000 are decode and hardware frequency counter, and a frequency counter doesn't exactly need much in the way of FPGA resources.
-
These Windows CE scopes actually worry me. I don't understand them. I want the same functionality but based around low integration logic ICs or at least FPGAs. ;D
Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not the right tool for the job. Would you prefer if it was all written in interpreted BASIC?
WinCE is specifically designed to run on resource-limited systems like PDAs from ROM - it's a very different animal to desktop Windoze, although even the latter has an embedded flavour that can run from read-only media
There must be a Registry somewhere in there growing slowly.
Why? There is no reason for a system like this to be writing to 'disk' in a way that has a risk of messing things up (bugs notwithstanding..). The scopes are only running a single application, without all the hassles of umpteen different drivers etc. that a general-purpose PC has to tolerate.
Given the choice of an obscure system like the VxWorks used on earlier Agilent scopes and a more mainstream OS for which all sorts of 'investigative' tools and knowledge is available I know which I'd prefer...
-
I wonder if this could be FPGA size. Perhaps serial decode needs the larger FPGA of the 3000, which they might decide to fit on the 2000 in future. From memory, the only main logic functionality changes between the 2000 and 3000 are decode and hardware frequency counter, and a frequency counter doesn't exactly need much in the way of FPGA resources.
Could be. Has anyone established what the FPGA is in the different models? IIRC it was under a heat-sink in Dave's teardown.
-
I wonder if this could be FPGA size. Perhaps serial decode needs the larger FPGA of the 3000, which they might decide to fit on the 2000 in future. From memory, the only main logic functionality changes between the 2000 and 3000 are decode and hardware frequency counter, and a frequency counter doesn't exactly need much in the way of FPGA resources.
Could be. Has anyone established what the FPGA is in the different models? IIRC it was under a heat-sink in Dave's teardown.
No it wan't - the FPGA types were identified in both reviews and the 3000 had ISTR one with about twice the gate count.
-
No it wan't - the FPGA types were identified in both reviews and the 3000 had ISTR one with about twice the gate count.
Ah yes. I was thinking of the two/four custom chips.
Interesting there's a software check for some aspect of the serial decode capability on the 2k units (and licenses) though...
-
Interesting there's a software check for some aspect of the serial decode capability on the 2k units (and licenses) though...
This is probably a check to see if larger FPGA is installed or not. Software is usually written before final specs are nailed down.
-
I would have expected the serial decode to have been hardware (part of the custom ASIC), rather than the FPGA, but I guess the workload can be shared.
Do we know if the ASICs are the same between the 2k and 3k series (other than the 3k clearly having 2 of everything)?
-
I wonder if this could be FPGA size. Perhaps serial decode needs the larger FPGA of the 3000, which they might decide to fit on the 2000 in future.
From talking with the head Agilent scope guy, I was lead to believe the 2000 as-is is perfectly able to do serial decode (built into the Magazoom ASIC), it is just sitting there waiting to be enabled if market forces dictate it is required.
Agilent would have done their homework and built the capability in in the release version board.
Dave.
-
I would have expected the serial decode to have been hardware (part of the custom ASIC), rather than the FPGA, but I guess the workload can be shared.
Do we know if the ASICs are the same between the 2k and 3k series (other than the 3k clearly having 2 of everything)?
Yes, I asked and was told directly that it is exactly the same Megazoom ASIC. So the 2000 is quite capable of doing 1,000,000 wfm/s, serial decode, 4M sample memory etc. The 2000 is definitely software crippled to meet market price points.
Dave.
-
Thanks for the update Dave... fingers crossed they enable that stuff sooner rather than later!
Mind you, the damn thing is pretty awesome as-is, and I've barely had a chance to use it in anger yet.
-
These Windows CE scopes actually worry me. I don't understand them. I want the same functionality but based around low integration logic ICs or at least FPGAs. ;D
There must be a Registry somewhere in there growing slowly. And you don't get Win CE reinstall CDs with them! ???
Not really a problem, except for boot times perhaps. They're running Windows, but on a singel hardware configuration, preloaded with only the necessary drivers and programs to make the device work, so it's expected to be more reliable than a desktop PC which might see frequent configuration changes.
One thing that might be a concern is safety on the network, if it's vulnerable enough to become part of a botnet. It seems unlikely someone would bother to write attack code specifically targeted to oscilloscopes (just not enough of them around compared to PCs to make it worth it unless you hav very specific targets like the Stuxnet worm), but the scopes might have some attack surface in common with mobile phones and end up being infected anyway. All depends on how exposed it is on the network.
-
They're running Windows, but on a singel hardware configuration, preloaded with only the necessary drivers and programs to make the device work, so it's expected to be more reliable than a desktop PC which might see frequent configuration changes.
Remember that it's Windows CE, which is an entirely different beast to your desktop's Windows.
-
Been lurking here a while and thought I should join in and say thanks for the discussion and clues.
Couple of observations I don't think I saw mentioned. The 20110316 update changed some of the displayed names for options, some don't match the user guide any more.
When you upgrade BW or to MSO does the model name change to reflect the update? Maybe that is why 'that' tool was embedded in the update.
Someone asked about MSO pinout. Just measuring the pins on a 3k looking at the scope it looks like the bottom row is all ground, top left open, 16 channels then 3 more opens. The inputs measure 10k to ground. Probes (as someone said) will be 90k in series, possibly split and I imaging a bit of compensation capacitance. The User Guide has a bit about probe frequency response which gives you a clue about what must be inside. Would still be nice to see the inside of a pod.
-
Does it look like this :
http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-Agilent-54620-61801-54620-61601-54620-68701-POD-KIT-/330346126103 (http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-Agilent-54620-61801-54620-61601-54620-68701-POD-KIT-/330346126103)
?
(those are insanely expensive for just cable and a 90k !)
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Yes. I've used the cables and that is what they look like. They are very high quality so it makes sense to me that they are expensive. The weaved wire is the best you can get. I actually know the guy who invented it.
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There are tiny wires woven into the fabric. Amazing!
The resistors are in the end of each probe cable, not the pod.
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2 ground wires beside each signal
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Neat. Is that the actual cable shipped with your unit ?
On another matter, I'm wondering if the 1152A active probe is compatible with this scope. It's been obsoleted by Agilent officially and isn't listed in the compatible probes in the user manual but it should be a standard "autoprobe" interface ...
It's hard to find the newer probes ( 1156A / 1157A / 1158A / N2795A ) cheaply. While on the other hand you can grab a 1152A for ~ 300 $ which is a pretty good deal I think for a 2.5GHz active probe ...
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Yes, that is the probe that ships with the unit. A guy at Agilent invented that cable because he was interested in weaving as a hobby and realized one day it could work well. The probes have fantastic electrical characteristics. We use them at work on 1000+ channel logic analyzers
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You can imagine the process of making and QCing them. Hence the cost. Trawl eBay!
How do you test ground shield wires continuity during QC? There are two GND wires between two signal ones. The only way I can think of is HF cross-talk between the signal wires.
When I got my cables with MSO-X 3024A I had a good look at them and actually realised how they are made. You can see the wires going through the fabric without taking the unit apart.
oPossum, how did you remove the rivets?
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Trawl ebay ?
I did, and the cheapest was 250-300$ :p
There is sometime some at 150$, but when you read the description, it's just the pod, not the flying leads and the grabber. Getting those speparately brings you back to 250-300$
For the 2000X, you might has well buy the real option than trying to mess around.
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I have a question regarding pods. Would it be possible to use standard 40 pin IDC cable for low frequency (e.g. 30MHz) digital designs?
It would be nice to have standard in-house debugging connector on prototype revision PCBs that you can just plug the IDC cable in and the other end goes into the scope.
I don't fancy mucking around with 18+ grippers plus 4 analogue probes plus head scratching of channel allocation. It might be even possible to make a breakout PCB that has a high density 0.05" socket if prototype PCB space is a problem.
So...
[ MSO-X3000A ]~~~~< 40 pin IDC cable >~~~~~~[ 40-pin-0.1" breakout-PCB 18-pin-0.05"]===[18-pin-0.05" development PCB ]
18 or 20 pin 0.05" will do.
You plug it into your design and boom! All the digital channels are connected and ready for debugging in predetermined order.
I am not sure if you can feed TTL levels straight into the scope without 90k inline resistors. They can be mounted on the breakout PCB in any case.
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The pictures I posted are from a broken cable assembly that I got off ebay many years ago. The other end of the cable is missing. I think I just drilled out the rivets.
80 conductor ATA (hard drive) cable may work for a DIY probe system. The 90k resistors would be required for proper threshold levels.
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A lot of boards have "SAMTEC" connectors just for that. Seems to be sort of a standard to plug logic analyzers. Agilent has cable for that.
And for the analog channels, you also have "probe sockets" that you can put on your board and litterally "plug" the probe in it.
But as you said, you can probably roll your own, just putting 90k resistors arrays on your test boards and using a 80pin ATA cable that has extra ground wires should work fine.
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But as you said, you can probably roll your own, just putting 90k resistors arrays on your test boards and using a 80pin ATA cable that has extra ground wires should work fine.
Thinking again 80 way ATA cable is not necessary because original 40 pin ATA did not have interleaving GND between signals that's what 80 way was introduced for. Plugging standard 40 pin ribbon cable into Agilent probe socket will have GND interleaving automatically.
So there is no auto-sensing for the digital pods plugged in? Unless one of the side GND pins is used as an active low signal.
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I lashed up a cable and 'pod' today. About 42cm of ribbon from an old IDE cable and 2cm of stripboard.
I measured the impedance looking into the ribbon and MSO. It is 10k at dc, down to about 2k5 at 1MHz, about 250R at 10MHz, dropping to about 60R at 70MHz then bounces up and down with standing waves above that.
I guessed at 220R followed by 91k with 6p8 in parallel as an attenuation/compensation network. The impedance of that was about 17k at 1MHz, 2k at 10MHz, and drops smoothly towards about 250R above that.
I put 4 x 5 way 0.1" headers on the 'pod' because I have loads and they are cheap for making custom adapters. 4 signals and a ground on each. The scope end stiffened with a bit of fibreglass and hot melt glue. I attach some photos and what the scope made of a 300mV 20MHz sinewave on the 'pod' (digital threshold set to 0).
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There are tiny wires woven into the fabric. Amazing!
The resistors are in the end of each probe cable, not the pod.
Yes. If they were in the pod then the bandwidth would be very poor due to the cable capacitance.
Just like how x10 scope probes work.
Dave.
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Thanks for the photos. Now I don't have to open mine.
I always just assumed they had some buffer circuitry in the pod, never bothered to measure it.
Dave.
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@Rufus: Very nice !
How did you measure the impedance ?
You don't happen to have an active probe to show the signal after the compensation network do you ?
I guess the misalignement of the two wave form is a delay caused by it ?
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I lashed up a cable and 'pod' today. About 42cm of ribbon from an old IDE cable and 2cm of stripboard.
...
I put 4 x 5 way 0.1" headers on the 'pod' because I have loads and they are cheap for making custom adapters. 4 signals and a ground on each. The scope end stiffened with a bit of fibreglass and hot melt glue. I attach some photos and what the scope made of a 300mV 20MHz sinewave on the 'pod' (digital threshold set to 0).
Looks good! It might make sense to remove unused unterminated wires on the cable edges.
Why do you have capacitors on the probe side? What inline resistors have you used?
Cheers
Leo
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I guess the misalignement of the two wave form is a delay caused by it ?
It might be just due to input comparator hysteresis. Seems to be 150mV from the pictures. Mind you the sine signal is only 0.3Vpp
I love these scopes. I have done a good development session yesterday. I have used CAN bus, SPI and USB triggering all on the same day.
By the way I am not sure if you figured it out but you can get all the 14 days trial licences at once, install them and keep rolling the scope time back to keep them active.
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I guess the misalignement of the two wave form is a delay caused by it ?
It might be just due to input comparator hysteresis. Seems to be 150mV from the pictures. Mind you the sine signal is only 0.3Vpp
I love these scopes. I have done a good development session yesterday. I have used CAN bus, SPI and USB triggering all on the same day.
By the way I am not sure if you figured it out but you can get all the 14 days trial licences at once, install them and keep rolling the scope time back to keep them active.
I'm guessing they probably self-destruct if they see a date after expiry, so could be annoying if you forget...
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I guess the misalignement of the two wave form is a delay caused by it ?
It might be just due to input comparator hysteresis. Seems to be 150mV from the pictures. Mind you the sine signal is only 0.3Vpp
I love these scopes. I have done a good development session yesterday. I have used CAN bus, SPI and USB triggering all on the same day.
By the way I am not sure if you figured it out but you can get all the 14 days trial licences at once, install them and keep rolling the scope time back to keep them active.
How do you get them all at once?
Couldn't you roll the time back several years and never have to deal with it or will that not work?
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@tnt
I measured impedance with a cheapy vector network analyzer. I didn't look at the signals after the network.
The scope probe was about 90cm longer than the cable+pod so you would expect maybe 8ns offset just from that. Hysteresis on the digital comparators would look like delay. The digital signal not being square would be voltage offset somewhere. It would be easy enough to accurately measure the digital input offset and hysteresis with a low frequency triangle wave but I haven't done it.
@leo
The values were in the post, 220R then 91k with 6.8pF across it. Look at the discussion of probe impedance in the user manual, the real thing has something like that in it. The apparent impedance of the ribbon cable drops rapidly with frequency so high frequency attenuation would be huge without some capacitance bypassing the main series resistance. You pay the price with lower probe input impedance. The 220R puts a limit on it.
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How do you get them all at once?
I'm guessing they probably self-destruct if they see a date after expiry, so could be annoying if you forget...
You just request them on the same day so that they will all be active during the same period.
If they lapse you will need to go back in time and simply install them again from the flash drive.
Couldn't you roll the time back several years and never have to deal with it or will that not work?
It will complain about this and ask you nicely to advance the time.
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@leo
The values were in the post, 220R then 91k with 6.8pF across it. Look at the discussion of probe impedance in the user manual, the real thing has something like that in it. The apparent impedance of the ribbon cable drops rapidly with frequency so high frequency attenuation would be huge without some capacitance bypassing the main series resistance. You pay the price with lower probe input impedance. The 220R puts a limit on it.
Agilent actually makes generic breakout probes 40pin -> 20pin and 40pin to 40 pin woven probe cable. Well done Agilent!
You have pretty much nailed it exactly right.
By the way the probe schematic is on the page 6 of http://www.teknetelectronics.com/DataSheet/HP_Agilent/HP_01650_63203.pdf (http://www.teknetelectronics.com/DataSheet/HP_Agilent/HP_01650_63203.pdf)
Or page 9 of http://www-d0.fnal.gov/trigger/stt/commiss/agilent/agilentprobing.pdf (http://www-d0.fnal.gov/trigger/stt/commiss/agilent/agilentprobing.pdf). This is an excellent review of probing solutions and techniques.
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By the way the probe schematic is on the page 6 of
Thanks for the links I hadn't seen those. Optimum compensation must depend on the cable and I expect standard ribbon is lower impedance than the Agilent weave. If I were guessing again I would probably guess at 10pF.
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Thanks for the links I hadn't seen those. Optimum compensation must depend on the cable and I expect standard ribbon is lower impedance than the Agilent weave. If I were guessing again I would probably guess at 10pF.
Agilent says the cable impedance should be about 80-100 Ohms preferably towards 100 Ohms. Standard IDC cable is often quoted as 100 Ohm impedance so it's not such a bad solution.
Weaved cable is very flexible so it maybe the main reason for Agilent using it? There is also "high flex" version of standard IDC cable but it's quite expensive - $15-$20 per metre. Still cheap compared to Agilent prices.
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Weaved cable is very flexible so it maybe the main reason for Agilent using it? There is also "high flex" version of standard IDC cable but it's quite expensive - $15-$20 per metre. Still cheap compared to Agilent prices.
Well your standard IDC cable is unlikely to survive all the twisting from daily use. Look at how much effort goes into those twisty phone cables.
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I have a vague recollection of reading a while ago that the woven cables used nichrome wire - just measured mine & it measures 200R, which would be stupidly thin if it was copper....
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Weaved cable is very flexible so it maybe the main reason for Agilent using it? There is also "high flex" version of standard IDC cable but it's quite expensive - $15-$20 per metre. Still cheap compared to Agilent prices.
IDC cable is not suitable for logic analyzer probes in any capacity other than basic hobby work. Woven cable is the only choice if you need to do real work. It's expensive for a reason.
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IDC cable is not suitable for logic analyzer probes in any capacity other than basic hobby work. Woven cable is the only choice if you need to do real work. It's expensive for a reason.
Wow, you should consider going into politics! ;D
Seriously though, I have a woven Agilent set but I'd like to have a special kit for direct plugging into boards at development stage.
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IDC cable is not suitable for logic analyzer probes in any capacity other than basic hobby work. Woven cable is the only choice if you need to do real work. It's expensive for a reason.
Wow, you should consider going into politics! ;D
Seriously though, I have a woven Agilent set but I'd like to have a special kit for direct plugging into boards at development stage.
lol. I work on systems with up to 5000 channels and many people have tried to buy cheap cables or come up with clever solutions to avoid the cost of woven cables. It really never works for a variety of reasons and we always end up buying the good ones. I understand what you are saying and it is nice to have cables that plug in directly. I use woven cables for that as well though. Obviously it depends on the complexity of your system which is why I said it's fine for basic hobby work. I don't want to wonder if my system is broken or if my instrument is possibly to blame as my designs are typically 5-8GHz, so not using good equipment is a waste of time and effort.
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Here is an eBay listing that has a full monty for $229. You get two full sets of probes, two breakout boards plus some box with a screen you can make aquarium from.
http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-1651B-Logic-Analyer-w-Accessories-2924A00437-/320233764679?pt=BI_Analyzers&hash=item4a8f6b7747#ht_1537wt_907 (http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-1651B-Logic-Analyer-w-Accessories-2924A00437-/320233764679?pt=BI_Analyzers&hash=item4a8f6b7747#ht_1537wt_907)
I'd had it but I am in the UK.
Why nichrome wire? It's pretty rigid.
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More HP porn....
The unmarked resistor is 90.0k
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Thanks for the photos. Now I don't have to open mine.
I always just assumed they had some buffer circuitry in the pod, never bothered to measure it.
Dave.
I also assumed they where active probes. It was a surprise to find nothing at all in the pods.
The amazing attention to detail of HP/Agilent products is one of the reasons I buy old HP gear rather than the latest cheap black box with a USB port. Look at the probes on a cheap USB logic analyzer and compare to almost 20 year old HP tech.
I have an old HP 54645D (the original MegaZoom), and the only thing that I would consider replacing it with would be a new 3000 series. That won't happen until I can get a used 3000 at a price I can afford. Until then the ability to turn a knob and zoom in 10,000 times continues to amaze and delight.
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Why nichrome wire? It's pretty rigid.
For the resistance to make a lossy transmission line. If you search you will find Agilent have a patent for it.
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@Leo: Ah well, I ended buying another kit (exactly the same model as oPossum posted) for 250USD incl shipping. (I'm in europe as well so shipping would have killed me on a full logic analyzer anyway :p)
@oPossum: Wow you sacrificed one of the probe. Nice :)
/me can't wait to get his 3034 tomorrow :p
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More HP porn....
The unmarked resistor is 90.0k
Presumably the little track stub on the left is a spark gap for ESD protection - I've seen similar on TV external inputs.
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Signal wire is silver color and measures 186 ohms.
Ground wire is copper and measures 1 ohm.
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@oPossum: Wow you sacrificed one of the probe. Nice :)
I wouldn't have done it if I had all 8 leads, but there where only 7. Now there are 6.
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Here is what came with my MSO-X 3024A:
The length of 300MHz passive analogue probes is 135 cm.
The length of digital probes from socket to the ends of inserts is 165 cm. Does difference create some skew between them?
The resistance of the woven cable is 186 Ohms on the signal wires and 0.3 Ohms on the GND ones.
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Well you can plug both to the square wave compensation output of the scope and show us a close up on the transition edge ... and then tell us if there is skew :p
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Here is what came with my MSO-X 3024A:
The length of 300MHz passive analogue probes is 135 cm.
The length of digital probes from socket to the ends of inserts is 165 cm. Does difference create some skew between them?
The resistance of the woven cable is 186 Ohms on the signal wires and 0.3 Ohms on the GND ones.
You can adjust the skew on the analog channels. And I think also the same on the digital channels (too lazy to check)
Dave.
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Try with an SCSI Ultra 320 cable instead an IDC.
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A bit of scope pr0n :p
(http://www.246tnt.com/files/scope_0.png)
Anyone recognizes what it is ?
I admit, the passive probe dampens the signal quite a bit ... but I still haven't received my active probe.
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Some sort of PLL sync preamble and burst of data?
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ECG of Agilent's product manager on discovering that AgilentConfidential_SecureDataTool leaked..?
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ECG of Agilent's product manager on discovering that AgilentConfidential_SecureDataTool leaked..?
Hmm, their heartbeat instantly jumped to 233 megabeats per second, settled into a quantum superposition of simultaneous Diastolic and Systolic states, then flatlined, all within 200ns? LOL!!
Is this data transfer to a RAM of some sort? The 233MHz initial waveform like something used for computer memory.
David
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Something suffering some major metastability?
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My first reaction was USB high speed, but I'm not sure. It definitely looks like some type of differential signaling with the same header and then a lower frequency 0 or 1. My guess is an enumeration or electrical idle exit packet of some sort, but I really have no idea.
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ECG of Agilent's product manager on discovering that AgilentConfidential_SecureDataTool leaked..?
*snort*
Dave.
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My first reaction was USB high speed, but I'm not sure. It definitely looks like some type of differential signaling with the same header and then a lower frequency 0 or 1. My guess is an enumeration or electrical idle exit packet of some sort, but I really have no idea.
That's right, it's USB hi-speed.
Taken on a USB stick doing nothing, (so just idle or random packets).
But at 240 MHz, the probe impedance looks more like 100 ohm than 10M so the loading is a bit high to see a nice signal.
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Hurray! I figured as much because of the way the waveform is shifted to a common mode of a few hundred mV and then differentially signaled around it at ~240MHz, or at least the packet header is that fast. You can almost see an eye in the middle of the waveform which basically gave it away as being the address of a device hanging off of the bus. I'm curious to see the waveform with your active probe.
Thanks for the fun little challenge.
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I'm curious to see the waveform with your active probe.
Yes me too :p
Unfortunately, it's coming by EMS so no real tracking and it's pretty slow.
(I didn't buy it new, those things are insanely expensive and the scope ruined me already :p)
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I opened up my DSO2004 for a bit of a poke around.
Just a heads-up for anyone who wants to try playing around with JTAG - I think the convenient looking pin-header that Dave highlighted in his tear-down is not, in fact, a JTAG port. At least it doesn't seem to be directly connected to the appropriate CPU pins. Instead, if you want to hook up to the CPU's JTAG interface, there are 8 neatly spaced, slightly larger than typical, VIAs just above the CPU (between it and the flash). Those appear to be hooked up to the JTAG pins, and there are also some resistors/unpopulated-pads which look like they're connected to the config pins on the CPU.
I didn't go to the trouble of actually working out which pin was which, nor what the config pins default to (it's possible you'd need to change the resistors around if you want to enable JTAG), but if you're looking, that's where I'd start...
I didn't explore the JTAG pads over by the ASIC - not sure if they're chained up to the CPU or not, and I suspect the CPU JTAG is of more interest.
However it's late here, and I'm tired, and I wanted to put it back together again and make sure it still works. (It does!)
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Standby power consumption?
I noticed the scope keeps itself warm. Particularly noticeable at the bottom of the storage compartment just above the power supply. I got the impression from the teardown blog it had a real mains on/off switch but it doesn't and some information in the service guide confirms that.
I measured the standby current at 86mA with a non-rms meter and 235v supply, obviously low power factor because it feels like 2 or 3 watts not 20.
Anyone here have the scope and a mains power meter to measure it?
Edit: Thought more about this and it smells of design cock up. Why would you go to the trouble of mounting a switch right next to the mains input and using a long bent plastic actuating rod to bring it to the front panel when all it is doing is switching a control signal to the power supply? I guess the switch they designed it around (possibly the switch in there now) wasn't up to the job so they kludged it and left us with a lot of standby power. The thing idles warmer than my old frequency counter which keeps the whole power supply active for the crystal oven.
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Standby power consumption?
I noticed the scope keeps itself warm. Particularly noticeable at the bottom of the storage compartment just above the power supply. I got the impression from the teardown blog it had a real mains on/off switch but it doesn't and some information in the service guide confirms that.
I measured the standby current at 86mA with a non-rms meter and 235v supply, obviously low power factor because it feels like 2 or 3 watts not 20.
Well, wadya know!
I just measured the 3000 at 7.8W with my energy meter.
That's nothing short of disgusting!
I didn't even think of measuring it because at first glance it looked like a real mains switch.
Dave.
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That's nothing short of disgusting!
This could be design feature that allows for soft start instead of hard power surge typical with full off switch?
Cheers
Leo
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This could be design feature that allows for soft start instead of hard power surge typical with full off switch?
Cheers
Leo
Like a RIGOL DG1022 (full off switch) which on turn on makes strange hums, display flashes violently then fades with garbage and everytime i turn it on i fear "its dead"
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When I first saw the teardown vid I thought the mains switch looked a bit on the small size - maybe this was a late-stage cost-cut, or maybe they ran out of space for a proper switch.
Would be interesting to see some pics of the mains input board - one thing that struck me on the teardown vid is the clearances looked a bit tight around the mains parts. Tere are some SMD parts very close to the connector to the PSU, although these could be the line trigger input circuitry (assuming this scope has a line trigger mode)
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This could be design feature that allows for soft start instead of hard power surge typical with full off switch?
The scope's power switch is latching so you can get a 'hard' start switching it on at the plug anyway.
If 'soft' control of power was an original design feature they would have put a push button on the main PCB instead of a cut out for the power switch actuating rod.
The original design intention must have been to switch the mains with the power switch mounted right next to the inlet. Presumably at some late stage they discovered the switch wasn't up to the job and/or they couldn't get a mechanically compatible switch that was. So they reved the filter board so the switch controlled an enable on the output side of the power supply block instead.
Very disappointing the power supply block has such high quiescent power, but, it would not have been a requirement for the original design. Maybe they will rev the power supply block to be less embarrassing in the future.
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Thats logical thinking Rufus!
I wonder would it maybe be better to buy this scope in a year or so then now, simply to wait for them to remove all possible (hardware) bugs from it?
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I wonder would it maybe be better to buy this scope in a year or so then now, simply to wait for them to remove all possible (hardware) bugs from it?
This depends on what value you put on a year's worth of your life.
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Why would they change it? The scope works, nobody's going to avoid buying it because of its standby power draw.
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Why would they change it? The scope works, nobody's going to avoid buying it because of its standby power draw.
Not a valid argument. Buying decisions are based on the sum of many features and this feature (if the buyer knows about it) would have some small bearing on the decision (especially in this age of eco green saving the planet bollocks). If Agilent offered an otherwise identical model at the same price which didn't stay warm and pull a few watts when turned off which would you buy?
I the vblog Dave praised it for having what he thought was a real mains on/off switch. I remember it and thought it was a feature I was buying.
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I'd buy whichever was cheaper, and if it was the high standby power version, I'd stick a postit note on it to remind me to turn off the mains.
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Why would they change it? The scope works, nobody's going to avoid buying it because of its standby power draw.
Not a valid argument. Buying decisions are based on the sum of many features and this feature (if the buyer knows about it) would have some small bearing on the decision (especially in this age of eco green saving the planet bollocks).
In this case it is entirely valid, as for something like a scope, standby power is so far down the list of possible purchasing criteria as to be negligible.
I highly doubt anyone would consider it unless they work in a company with some dumb bullshit policy on all purchases having to comply with low-energy standards, and even then, being engineers they would probably find a way around it.
If Agilent offered an otherwise identical model at the same price which didn't stay warm and pull a few watts when turned off which would you buy?
Irrelevant as that wouldn't happen. They would either revise it at some point or not.
It would cost them money to change it, so unless it brought enough benefit to increase sales to cover it, or legislation chnaged to require it, it wouldn't happen.
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Why would they change it? The scope works, nobody's going to avoid buying it because of its standby power draw.
I was not thinking about the standby power draw, even if im on solar power most of the time i dont care about it. I was PM-ing with one owner of this scope and his scope died few days ago and now is returned to Agilent. I'm thinking maybe its better waiting for few hardware revisions to happen? Basically it died similar death as Daves scope but he did not have any LAN/VGA module installed...
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Photo of the board, sorry don't have the bottom side.
The switch didn't look too wimpy, and it was on the mains side of the board, and of course they went to the trouble to do the traditional mechanical rod interface, so when I did the review I just assumed it was a proper mains switch!
Didn't occur to me to actually test that or look further at all :-[
Dave.
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The switch didn't look too wimpy
Looks wimpy to me for something that has to take the PSU inrush current. I doubt that switch was originally used for mains, there is space for something bigger.
Mains switching is a real PIA especially for big switchers and big transformers, but, you would expect someone the size of Agilent would have more than enough experience.
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The switch didn't look too wimpy
Looks wimpy to me for something that has to take the PSU inrush current. I doubt that switch was originally used for mains, there is space for something bigger.
Mains switching is a real PIA especially for big switchers and big transformers, but, you would expect someone the size of Agilent would have more than enough experience.
yeah - inrush current, especially if not actively managed, can be a bitch - can easily 20-30A for a cycle or two, which can be hard on switches.
This arrangement, although less efficient is probably better for long-term reliability, assuming the switch mechanics are suitably robust.
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A reviewer (at EE Times, I think) mentioned they had a pre-production unit that took over 20 seconds at power up before any activity was noted. He was told production units would have much shorter boot times.
Perhaps the original design did switch the mains, but to reduce boot time they keep the unit running in some idle mode? Like tube based TV's back in the day...
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Here is some performance data from sub-nanosecond pulse generator attached to my MSO-X 3024A.
Slew rate seems to be in the order of 4.7V/nsec
Cheers
Leo
(http://leobodnar.com/files/short%20pulse%20data.png)
(http://leobodnar.com/files/short pulse.png)
(http://leobodnar.com/files/short pulser.jpg)
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Perhaps the original design did switch the mains, but to reduce boot time they keep the unit running in some idle mode?
Nope. There is a single mains to 13vdc OEM PSU. All other supplies are generated from the 13v by switchers on the filter PCB. The power switch enables the 13v output and this PSU alone is responsible for the 'off' power consumption and heat.
Photo is another PCB mounted, plastic rod actuated mains switch in an Instek signal generator and all that is switching is mains to a 20VA transformer.
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Nope. There is a single mains to 13vdc OEM PSU. All other supplies are generated from the 13v by switchers on the filter PCB. The power switch enables the 13v output and this PSU alone is responsible for the 'off' power consumption and heat.
Is it a meant to be car battery powered when necessary?
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Is it a meant to be car battery powered when necessary?
Didn't think of that, but, a single mains generated supply and a bunch of derived ones does support operation from a battery pack.
I think the 13v supply is also used inside the scope but maybe it has a wide tolerance.
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The 6000 does have a factory-fit battery pack option - I assume it fit in the probe container - seems sensible for them to carry on offering this option as this range replaces the 6000. I'd guess they replace the mains PSU with a DC/DC and battery management board.
Of course standby draw could be improved with a different PSU - with standards for this in various stages of coming in at the moment, it's entiirely possible they already plan to change the PSU as & when lower standby PSUs become readily avaiable at the right price.
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Here is some performance data from sub-nanosecond pulse generator attached to my MSO-X 3024A.
Slew rate seems to be in the order of 4.7V/nsec
Nice board. Got any build details for that?
Dave.
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Nice board. Got any build details for that?
Dave.
Hi Dave,
The board is from Janne Ahonen http://koti.mbnet.fi/jahonen/Electronics/AvalanchePulser/ (http://koti.mbnet.fi/jahonen/Electronics/AvalanchePulser/)
I have started laying out my own but then got one blank PCB from him and modified it slightly. It is really simple, most of the parts belong to the 90V step up power supply.
Avalanche starts at 60V so maybe DC-DC voltage can be dropped to 70V or so. As soon as you somehow get 70-90V DC then the pulser itself is just 5-6 components.
The pulse rise time is in the range of 300-600 ps.
Here are the links related to the pulser design:
http://cds.linear.com/docs/Application%20Note/an72f.pdf (http://cds.linear.com/docs/Application%20Note/an72f.pdf) (Appendix B / p.40) basic diagram for self-oscillating mode
http://cds.linear.com/docs/Application%20Note/an94f.pdf (http://cds.linear.com/docs/Application%20Note/an94f.pdf) externally triggered, controlled pulse width and damping
http://www.holmea.demon.co.uk/Avalanche/Avalanche.htm (http://www.holmea.demon.co.uk/Avalanche/Avalanche.htm) quick practical implementation
http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms/Elec_Pulse.html (http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms/Elec_Pulse.html) ditto
http://www.i9t.net/fast-pulse/fast-pulse.html (http://www.i9t.net/fast-pulse/fast-pulse.html)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.msg21587#msg21587 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.msg21587#msg21587) local post
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=588.msg10635#msg10635 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=588.msg10635#msg10635) local post
Cheers
Leo
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The pulse generator was also published in AN47 (Page 93). The whole app note from Jim Williams is a classic and worth to be read a few times http://www.linear.com/docs/4138 (http://www.linear.com/docs/4138)
I build one a few years ago in a kind of split design similar to AN47. Mine has the 90 V power supply together with battery and on/off switch in a small plastic enclosure, and the transistor with BNC plug and the B, E, C resistors and capacitor in a separate tiny tin enclosure. Between them 1 m of cable to connect the power. This gives me a small separate head, not much larger than the BNC plug.
The power supply is build on a strip board, and - sorry Linear - I substituted the LT1073 with another boost converter IC I just happened to have in the drawer.
The "head" is build similar to what Jim Williams shows in AN47, although I didn't use a second BNC connector to connect the power. To keep the head small the cable is fixed attached to the head in my version.
If you have the parts, this is a weekend project. Just be careful, if you mess up the power supply you can easily get more then the desired 90 V out of it, and 90 V is already beyond ELV, so officially in the "it can kill you" range.
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Thanks.
I thought it might have been the Jim Williams design.
Dave.
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@Dave: So what about those hi-res photo of the boards ? :p
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Here is a screen capture of MSO-X 3024A that has direct short (few ns) pulse firing into Ch1 that is also sampled by Ch3 with standard 300MHz Agilent probe N2863B and Agilent digital logic analyser weaved cable pod.
Digital threshold has been set at 200mV as values over 500mV make digital pulse disappear.
You can see that the time delay between the probe and the digital pod is well matched - to within a 1ns which is the maximum resolution of digital sampling anyway.
(http://leobodnar.com/files/short%20pulse%20w%20digital.png)
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Very nice, I can't wait to get my own pulse generator.
Why do threshold > 500 mV make the pulse disappear ? Any theory ?
Even 1V should still show a at least 2 sample wide (2ns) digital pulse.
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Why do threshold > 500 mV make the pulse disappear ? Any theory ?
Even 1V should still show a at least 2 sample wide (2ns) digital pulse.
I think it's on the edge of its capabilities. Agilent specifies minimum detectable pulse width of 5 nanosec. (corrected)
The test pulse is very short and I suspect that due to lower bandwidth and slew rate in the digital system pulse Vpp is much lower then 3.5V showing on analogue channels.
Maximum sample rate 1 GSa/s
Maximum record length 2 Mpts (digital only), 500 kpts (analog and digital channels)
Minimum detectable pulse width 5 ns
Channel-to-channel skew 2 ns (typical); 3 ns (maximum)
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Thanks.
I thought it might have been the Jim Williams design.
Dave.
Haha. I got mine too. Yeah, Jim Williams is just cool like that.
(http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n537/tekscopes/DSC05173.jpg?t=1303072258)
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Argh ... the 3000-X refuses the 1152A active probe ...
It's not listed as "supported" probe (it's an obsolete model), but the Agilent rep told me it'd work ... now I have two useless probes. Damnit.
I was hoping to watch more scope pr0n tonight, not gonna happen now.
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I am very interested to learn the difference between the 100/200MHz and 350/500MHz mainboards.
Is it a radical redesign of the front-end and tighter acquisition block or just a few software selection jumpers here and there?
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The front ends are different. You can't hack it in software.
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The front ends are different. You can't hack it in software.
Wow. How do you know? I have heard it as well.
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The front ends are different. You can't hack it in software.
Wow. How do you know? I have heard it as well.
Dave has previously mentioned that his Agilent contact confirmed this.
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"Different" might mean a missing 10pF cap in LP filter or it might mean complete redesign.
I am looking for the 1st hand experience and possibly some substance, not a patronising notice that someone heard what Dave heard from somebody at Agilent. I heard it too.
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Why are you getting so belligerent about this? Use a little bit of common sense and you can figure it out. There is no way a 500MHz capable front end will be crippled and sold at 70/100/200MHz. They cost a fortune which is why they represent the majority of the upgrade cost. Also, you could use a few minutes of your own time to pick up the phone and call Agilent or a distributor. I made a phone call, got some information, and that was it. Nothing is stopping you from doing that.
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Why are you getting so belligerent about this? Use a little bit of common sense and you can figure it out. There is no way a 500MHz capable front end will be crippled and sold at 70/100/200MHz. They cost a fortune which is why they represent the majority of the upgrade cost. Also, you could use a few minutes of your own time to pick up the phone and call Agilent or a distributor. I made a phone call, got some information, and that was it. Nothing is stopping you from doing that.
Can I repeat my original question just for you? I am interested in schematic differences in <=200MHz and >=350MHz main boards if anybody has looked yet.
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Why are you getting so belligerent about this? Use a little bit of common sense and you can figure it out. There is no way a 500MHz capable front end will be crippled and sold at 70/100/200MHz. They cost a fortune which is why they represent the majority of the upgrade cost. Also, you could use a few minutes of your own time to pick up the phone and call Agilent or a distributor. I made a phone call, got some information, and that was it. Nothing is stopping you from doing that.
Can I repeat my original question just for you? I am interested in schematic differences in <=200MHz and >=350MHz main boards if anybody has looked yet.
I didn't probe any deeper than what I said in my last post. I was told the front ends are physically different which is why you are required to send the scope in for the upgrade. I assume the boards are also different to accommodate higher frequency signals, at least in the front end. The majority of the boards are probably the same or very similar. Without having access to an upgraded bandwidth scope I can't be sure as I haven't seen the differences for myself and a sales rep wouldn't know the answer to this technical of a question most likely.
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I am very interested to learn the difference between the 100/200MHz and 350/500MHz mainboards.
Is it a radical redesign of the front-end and tighter acquisition block or just a few software selection jumpers here and there?
It is a completely redesigned front end. It's not just a jumper or bandwidth switch, you have to send the scope back and they change out the entire main board.
The 500MHz front end is much more expensive than the 200MHz front end.
I asked and was told this directly from one of the head honcho's in the Agilent scope design group.
They actually expect very few people to upgrade the bandwidth, so it is done more for marketing and market position than anything.
Dave.
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Yes I guess most "industry" people will directly take the right BW. Only "hobbyist" might upgrade later (because they either get more advanced, or spread the cost), and again, going over 200MHz to 350MHz becomes very expensive making that particular transition unlikely.
It's also unlikely we'll see a complete comparaison of both frontend because they're are under a soldered shield and I'm certainly not about to unsolder it to see what's behind it :p And I guess a lot of other people won't do it either. Removing a few screws to picture the mainboard is OK ... unsoldering stuff on a pretty expensive piece of equipement is something else.
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Removing a few screws to picture the mainboard is OK
Dave tore down a 500M scope so we know what that looks like. I would imagine the 100/200M 3000s have the same front end as the 2000s. Can't see the autoprobe stuff needing much shielding so how big are the cans on the 100/200 3000s? That could be a clue.
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Well he didn't remove the cans ... so we have no idea what the front end really looks like ...
And the autoprobe stuff is not at all there, it's on the same PCB as the front panel, not on the main board.
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For anyone interested, I obtained the U-boot source code from Agilent (GPL request). They don't have a proper setup to distribute the GPL stuff they use since there are so few requests, they handle it by hand which takes some time (and they're allowed to charge a nominal fee).
So since the GPL allows me to redistribute it myself after having obtained it, here it is :
http://www.246tnt.com/files/Uboot_Source_2.4.14526.11931.zip (http://www.246tnt.com/files/Uboot_Source_2.4.14526.11931.zip)
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I did try and get a couple of photos under the shield, but wasn't really successful.
Have to get around to posting those photos online some time...
Dave.
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@EEVBlog: Yes please just upload them somewhere quickly and let us sort through them, should be pretty quick
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Just to let you chaps know - the frequency resolution of the internal wave generator is at least 1Hz when accessed via VISA COM library SICL commands.
I tried to quickly assess the transmission of certain narrow bandwidth bandpass filter and found that the best resolution I can dial via front panel knobs is only +-1kHz around 9.950MHz. Way too rough for my purposes.
I have then whipped up an Agilent Interactive IO utility, punched in :WGEN:FREQ 9950001 and bingo - the output freq changed to 9,950,001 Hz.
This is confirmed by picking up the signal on my communication receiver and observing beat frequency with the local oscillator. It does vary with at least 1Hz steps.
I can't vouch for absolute accuracy of the frequency but this is good enough for me as I am only interested in relative values.
I am off to program a VB script to sweep the input frequency and read the Vpp filter output voltage from the scope and make nice charts. :)
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I like this scope. Internal wave generator, USB link, simple VB script and Bob's your uncle!
(http://leobodnar.com/files/bandpass-Agilent-scope.GIF)
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I have then whipped up an Agilent Interactive IO utility, punched in :WGEN:FREQ 9950001 and bingo - the output freq changed to 9,950,001 Hz.
I may be mis-remembering but I think on the 6000 at least that you can enter VISA commands via the web interface - if so I'd expect there to be similar functionality on the newer ones. Can be handy if you want a wierd timebase setting to just fill the screen with a waveform, or make the grid lines line up with bit positions at odd data rates.
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I have been looking at scopes for a few days. I thought about something like the rigol as well as a separate function generator and the saleae. My plan is to use them for development with the atmel 8bit mcu's and on the other end of the scale for amplifiers/crossovers. I have broad interests so who knows what I may end up doing.
Then I saw Daves review. A grand for a scope like this. It was more than I was thinking about but I could swing it if I really wanted to. Then perhaps all those other features in it could replace the individual function generator and the saelae analyzer thoughts.
I was watching the video and convincing myself by the second that this was worth the hefty jump in price. Then the reality hit towards the end. The costs added up quick. I will buy a saelae and another func gen. (Wish I hadn't lost one already!)
So, I look around the net only to find that you cant import them due to the dealer networks and we have one company in New Zealand selling them. Our NZ dollar is not as good as the Aussie, you guys have it good for now. So the basic 70MHz option with no extras is a lovely $2000 or $2500 for the 100MHz, no options. Gulp.
Boy, did I go from a high to a low fast. No pricing to upgrade from 70MHz to 100MHz but I think it will be more than $500 if I wanted to spread the cost by doing that. Then again, I am not sure that 70MHz is where I should start for working with the MCU's?
I was going to 'upgrade' the rigol to 100MHz if I got it. Now I seem stuck. I have sort of gone off the Rigol after seeing this and it seems like there is not a lot in between anymore. I mean I could spend $1500 on a chinese one but would I then kick myself for not speding the 2k, or am I wrong?
Even with the $$ conversion the aussies still get the 100 for the price of the 70. No wonder dealers like dealer networks that block international sales..
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If you can afford an Agilent scope you would be doing yourself a huge disservice by getting a Rigol. You said yourself you have broad interests and you don't know what you'll be doing, so getting 3 separate devices with no upgrade path makes little to no sense. Getting a single device that can do everything, and not only can it do it, but it does it much better, makes a lot more sense.
There is no comparison in terms of quality. If you want a real piece of test equipment get an Agilent. If you want to cut corners and save money, get a Rigol.
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Yes, I know you are right. I typed out that last post as I was a bit disappointed at first thinking it was within reach to find it wasn't.
$2500 for the 100MHz version. I might be able to get the 70 depending on what I can juggle but any add on's will be well down the road after doing that. If I was making money from it that would be a different story - or maybe not, you still only have what you have to pay for it ::)
I had really hoped that including local taxes/currency exchange rates etc there still wouldn't be a markup in the hundreds. Oh well, thats life.
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Yeah, it's a still a hefty chunk of change for a hobbyist. I would still get the 70MHz Agilent if I were you because it is just such a nice piece of hardware and gives you what you need in 1 device even if you can't get it all right now. Of course, if you need the other features right now then that's something to consider.
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Can you get a friend in Australia (or the USA) to post or fly one over?
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I would be happy to buy one in the USA for you. However, I'm betting it wouldn't end up saving you very much money after paying for international shipping and insurance twice.
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Can you get a friend in Australia (or the USA) to post or fly one over?
Friend? Hang on, let me get my dictionary :)
Not sure, bandtank is probably right, coming from the states there would be little savings to weigh up against warranty issues etc. I wonder if they do an international warranty?
I really hate to do things half assed, especially if I want my gear to last a while. I am considering a couple of items I could sell to help cover it.
Although, spending that much money on the scope I do think I will go for the saleae analyzer for the interim and even then it would have to be a very nice one on the scope to spend the $$ to change over. Same for the generator, depending what I can source locally.
Oh well, I will hang back and see what interest I get on a few items I will try and flog. I wish I never saw the damn thing! :)
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Jasonh,
What is your current list of equipment? If you are trying to set up an expensive lab before you know your exact requirements then you might lose a lot of cash.
If your goals are 8 bit micros and audio stuff then Agilent scope is useless investment.
You are good to go with a cheap $100 PC-based logic analyser and used 200-400MHZ 4 channel CRT Tek for $200-$300.
Majority of microcontroller projects can be debugged with just a bunch of LEDs and in-circuit debugger.
Don't spend all your budget on a pretty scope!
Leo
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Thanks Leo, btw I have bought a few of your boards in the past :)
I have a broken and lost scope :-\ also lost a function generator but if I go back to storage I should still have a frequency counter, a couple of fluke dmm's, dc power supplies, all the hand tools. I currently use a goot soldering station but hopefully lurking around is also a weller soldering/vacuum desolder station. Most of what is in storage has not seen the light of day for a decade but I know the scope is a gone and I have a keen interest.
In all the other areas of tools I am covered so the scope is really the 'big' one.
Scopes are not so easy to get over here, for example on the local 'ebay' type of site where pretty much everything second hand is sold there is one scope at 100MHz, nothing higher and it is near $700
There is also another analog one 75MHz for $450. Choice is small and prices are high compared some other countries.
If I do get that one I will make sure the $$ are about so I am not left wanting for anything else I need to get going.
Thanks Leo, and keep up the good work with your products!
Thanks,
Jason
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I am trying to use my patience, and so far it is working. No silly regrettable purchases yet :)
Anyway, I think I will have the $$ for the agilent, I am thinking about the 100MHz version and I have a quick question. The function generator that you can purchase a license for. How good is it? Let me put that another way. If I was to buy a separate one, how much would I be spending to acquire a new one of similar functionality/quality?
Leo, I did get a pc based logic anazlyzer as well. I like it a lot so far, it works a treat. Only issue is that I want to add my own protocol analyzer and saleae only support the sdk on windows and I am running the mac version of the software. I have a pc at the other end of the bench if I really have to..
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A "real" waveform generator will be better, but I put the word in quotes for a reason. The waveform generator in the X-Series scopes is actually very capable, but they watered it down. It is very obviously capable of being a 2 channel arb, at least if it wasn't turned off.
Something people seem to be missing is the amount of convenience of having it built in to the scope. Yeah, it's definitely too much money considering they stripped it of the arb, but to me it is still very much worth it all things considered. It's certainly not enough of a difference to want yet another instrument on the desk instead of spending a little more for the license. I wrote a frequency sweep program to automatically do 25 different acquisitions at various trigger points in my circuit and then it loops around and does it all again with a slightly higher frequency. Yes, this is possible with multiple instruments as I do it at work with up to 20 at a time, but being able to do it all in one is very convenient.
In the future hopefully they will let us use the arb functionality.
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Only issue is that I want to add my own protocol analyzer and saleae only support the sdk on windows and I am running the mac version of the software.
Their SDK works fine on the mac. Their docs even show how to set up an xcode project.
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Thanks for that! I went back to the downloads page and saw there was another link to an SDK page. I was just looking at the three downloads available at the bottom, one being the windows only SDK.
OK, I will go have a look :)
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Usability is 100% dependant on what you are trying to do. It is only up to 10MHz square wave and 20MHz sine. It does not have the modulation. It can only change frequency by +-1kHz in 1..10MHz band and +-10kHz above 10MHz via control knob (VISA/SCPI interface has sub-Hz resolution.) So if you are into SW radios it is only a basic functionality. For audio equipment testing it is probably more than you need. But still very convenient - zero footprint and no extra power plugs!
I have been looking for SCPI via USB enabled generator with modulation and up to 200MHz range and so far can't find anything reasonable below $1K.
There is some rubbish with 8 bit DAC outputs. It is as good as a random noise generator in receiver's land.
It is a pretty basic generator and if you buy the licence you can't sell it off separately when you want to upgrade your waveform generation.
You can always get two weeks trial licence and decide for yourself. You can keep rolling clock back to keep it active.
How do you write application on a Mac? I'd love to get rid of a PC in this respect. I guess you can talk to any VISA/SCPI instrument, not only Agilent?
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Leo, thanks for the reply. I didn't know they were that silly to let you keep rolling the clock back :)
I know some have hacked the firmware but I am not knowledgable to figure it out, even though I could follow the instructions no problem but there isn't the same 'rigol' thread going on with this machine.
The mac software related to the saleae logic analyser. I am going to be working with a simple protocol over rs485 where the packets have a basic <preamble> <dst> <src> <flags> <len> <data> ... <data> <cksum>
The saleae SDK should let me capture this and show the data. It's a cheap unit but should work well for these slower chips up to 20 odd MHz.
It might be nice to have that on the agilent but I guess I could not have this protocol usable to me.
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Super keen to get one of these, is it worth waiting for other brands to respond?
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Anyway, I think I will have the $$ for the agilent, I am thinking about the 100MHz version
Is the 100MHz one worth is over the 70MHz version I wonder?
That's not a big difference, and you might be able to use the change to buy something else perhaps?
You can always buy the extra BW later if you need it.
Dave.
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Super keen to get one of these, is it worth waiting for other brands to respond?
The new Rigol DS6000 series looks interesting. http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS6000/ (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS6000/)
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My DSOX3014A just shipped, excited!
As I understand from this thread, the 100MHz and 200MHz versions are the same hardware, and 200MHz is a license key option.
It was my understanding that if you have the GSa/sec to back it up, the bandwidth rating of the scope is due to the capabilities of the analog front end.
So what on Earth could the 200MHz license key be unlocking?
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So what on Earth could the 200MHz license key be unlocking?
I guess an extra capacitor in front-end LP filter.
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So what on Earth could the 200MHz license key be unlocking?
I guess an extra capacitor in front-end LP filter.
...and maybe an extra few steps on the timebase setting?
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Super keen to get one of these, is it worth waiting for other brands to respond?
I wouldn't be waiting for Tektronix.
I've heard that they were caught completely off guard by this release and don't have anything in the pipeline to compete, hence the recent panic 40% price drops were they still find it very difficult to compete.
Don't know about the others.
If you are talking something to equal the performance of the Agilent in terms of update rate, the only others one's who would have a chance in hell of doing that are Lecroy. But IIRC they aren't far into the release cycle of their latest scopes, so probably not much chance there any time soon.
I'd get the Agilent now if you are keen on it.
My only hesitation would be that unused Serial decode key on the 2000 series. They may decide to release a 2000 model with that functionality built in and maybe not offer it to previous customers as a firmware upgrade? I don't really know.
At any time if the opposition release a better scope, Agilent are in a position to simply enable extra features for zero extra production and delay cost.
The Agilent release will probably mean the others might start to include wavegen options as well in the future? But Agilent got that for free inside their ASIC, so the overhead production cost was minimal. If others haven't thought that far ahead, then they'll have to pay more to include it.
Dave.
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Looking for the old firmware update file...anyone have it laying around still? Thanks!
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Looking for the old firmware update file...anyone have it laying around still? Thanks!
here
http://hotfile.com/dl/119064856/edf72e6/3000XSeries.01.10.2011031600.cab.html (http://hotfile.com/dl/119064856/edf72e6/3000XSeries.01.10.2011031600.cab.html)
EDIT: link updated
https://hotfile.com/dl/131446259/df706bb/3000XSeries.01.10.2011031600.cab.html (https://hotfile.com/dl/131446259/df706bb/3000XSeries.01.10.2011031600.cab.html)
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So what on Earth could the 200MHz license key be unlocking?
I guess an extra capacitor in front-end LP filter.
...and maybe an extra few steps on the timebase setting?
Ah yes, it looks like the 100MHz goes down to 5ns/div, and the 200MHz is down to 2ns/div, not like this is a big deal considering that 5ns/div is more than sufficient to show the entire 4GSa/sec. Would be really funny if that's all the upgrade unlocked. :)
I am thoroughly enjoying this scope, the memory depth is even better than the waveforms/sec, though I guess that's not as Agilent-exclusive. :)
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Mine arrived just yesterday verry late in evening, only had the time to update it. Almost 3 months waiting for it.
Cant wait to play today after work... Did not visit this forum verry long time, did somebody hack the licensing system?
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If you don't have the wave generator option, does the bnc connector for the scope produce higher frequency square wave for high frequency compensation for the scope?
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If you don't have the wave generator option, does the bnc connector for the scope produce higher frequency square wave for high frequency compensation for the scope?
I bought the wavegen option, but probably i will never use it anyway in fear of bricking the scope with my HV stuff. Anyway i have 4 or 5 standalone FG-s that i will rather use
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There's no output on the Gen Out BNC if you don't have the Wavegen option.
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I think high frequency signal should be included in the base model, it is just a simple thing that is necessary for probe calibration. For people who don't need the wave generator option they will have to use other square wave generator to calibrate the probes, really dumb.
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This "but I need the wavegen option to adjust the probe" is just nonsense.
The high frequency of probe adjusting signals is "in the edges" of the signals. Ask Monsieur Fourier. If the rise (and fall) times are small enough then there is no need for a high frequency (as in high repetitive rate) probe adjust signal. And since aged oscilloscope vendors have no problem delivering an adjustment signal that has sufficient short rise times for probe adjustments. I bet Agilent's probe adjustment signal output is absolutely sufficient.
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I bet Agilent's probe adjustment signal output is absolutely sufficient.
The probe check/calibration output on the X 3000 ramps between levels in about 1.2us. Probably to avoid edge ringing confusing the automatic probe check feature. Fine for the main low frequency compensation adjustment, useless for high frequency compensation trimming. The internal signal generator rise time is about 20ns still slow.
I couldn't find useful instruction on how to tweak the two high frequency compensation pots in the stock probes. Best I came up with was feeding a square wave through a fast 50 ohm buffer directly into one 50 ohm terminated channel while probing the same signal on another and trimming the probe for the best match.
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In most probes you shouldn't adjust HF compensation unless your replaced the probe cable or components in the compensation circuit. Not sure about the Agilent probes, what does their manual say?
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what does their manual say?
Not much useful http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/redirector.jspx?ckey=2013000&action=ref&lc=eng&cc=CA&cname=AGILENT_EDITORIAL (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/redirector.jspx?ckey=2013000&action=ref&lc=eng&cc=CA&cname=AGILENT_EDITORIAL).
The high frequency trimmers are (from memory) a pot in series with the scope input and a pot from the input in series with an unknown value capacitor to ground.
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Those instructions are useless. I'm also surprised that they don't specify a rise time. I would probably leave them alone unless you have a pulse generator with a fairly fast rise time and clean edge. No point in adjusting for a clean square edge if the signal isn't a nice square wave. Adjusting a step with low rise time for square edge will result in over peaking.
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I would probably leave them alone unless you have a pulse generator with a fairly fast rise time and clean edge.
I said what I did a couple of posts ago.
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I ordered an MSOX2024 on Friday and I now wait for it, which is ok as I need to clean a spot for it on the bench. Seems adding something is what motivates me to clean Ha.
I did see something on the Aglient web for this scope that might interest Dave.
Version 1.2 of the firmware has some interesting additions.
The web interface has an option for a display that matches the scope. I remember in his
review of the scope he mentioned that and looks like they were listening.
Also 1mv/div
I attached the pdf of the notes for Ver 1.2
Tom
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I just updated. The qr code leads here http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/tips-tricks-agilent-oscilloscopes/id416812592?mt=8 (http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/tips-tricks-agilent-oscilloscopes/id416812592?mt=8)
i tought we will get something other from it , altrough the update brings nice improvments.
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I'll start a new thread for this as well, but I know people look here, too.
FREE upgrade available for DSOX2000 and DSOX3000 scopes (wavegen, segmented memory, or mask)
https://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=CA&lc=eng&ckey=2061359&id (https://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=CA&lc=eng&ckey=2061359&id)
(be sure to delete any of my information!)
I couldn't find this by searching, but a link popped up and i filled it out- and it worked! I ow have the wavegen lic (without having to hack anything :) )
Free Scope Upgrade
You could receive one FREE upgrade associated with the purchase of a new Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 X-Series, 3000 X-Series, or 7000B Series oscilloscope. (After reviewing the upgrade table, please use your back key to return to the Web page)
Simply register your information below and you will receive an email with instructions to claim your FREE upgrade.
You will have 90 days to purchase a new Agilent InfiniiVision oscilloscope that best meets your needs and redeem your FREE upgrade.
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Unfortunately the free upgrade is only for a scope you will buy after asking for a free upgrade. I tried and got a polite response saying i dont have right for it because the scope was bought before claiming free upgrade.
This is kind of not fair to people that allready bought the scope sounding little bit like Chinese manufacturers policy "when we have your money we dont care anymore" :(
However i have a problem with my Agilent it seems all time some strange plastic shavings fall from inside the scope i tought they would clean that in the manufacturing proces :o
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I ordered an MSOX2024 on Friday and I now wait for it, which is ok as I need to clean a spot for it on the bench. Seems adding something is what motivates me to clean Ha.
I did see something on the Aglient web for this scope that might interest Dave.
Version 1.2 of the firmware has some interesting additions.
The web interface has an option for a display that matches the scope. I remember in his
review of the scope he mentioned that and looks like they were listening.
Also 1mv/div
1mv/div is nice, as are the extra waveform options for the wavgen.
Agilent are on the ball.
I hope they keep it up!
Dave.
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I just updated, and I like the new boot landscape image of a lovely lit rock formation with snow capped mountains in the background.
One of the developers photos maybe? ;)
Not surprisingly, the new 1mV/div mode has double the noise of the 2mV/div mode, a whopping 2 division peak-peak.
Can't beat a good analog scope ;D
Dave.
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Interesting that the new wavegen options are not available on the 2000X. Another artificial differentiator.
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Unfortunately the free upgrade is only for a scope you will buy after asking for a free upgrade. I tried and got a polite response saying i dont have right for it because the scope was bought before claiming free upgrade.
This is kind of not fair to people that allready bought the scope sounding little bit like Chinese manufacturers policy "when we have your money we dont care anymore" :(
However i have a problem with my Agilent it seems all time some strange plastic shavings fall from inside the scope i tought they would clean that in the manufacturing proces :o
I wondered about this myself, as I bought the DSOX2024 about a month and half ago, but it went through fine and i now have the wavegen lic. I did register the scope when I got it with the same email used for the upgrade offer, though I don't know if it makes any difference.
DSOX2000 series firmware update retains the same Agilent Technologies splash screen on boot, no landscape for us lower end folks I guess (along with the reduced wavegen features, etc)
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DSOX2000 series firmware update retains the same Agilent Technologies splash screen on boot, no landscape for us lower end folks I guess (along with the reduced wavegen features, etc)
I installed the firmware on my DSOX2012A yesterday and have the landscape at boot. Firmware ver# 1.20 dated 6/30/2011. Try installing the firmware again.
I also applied for a free upgrade, but have not heard from Agilent yet. I purchased my scope at the end of April.
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I applied but received a mail saying that the deal is for new scope purchase only. Wrote back to tell them I just received it on the July 5th which is less than 10 days ago and Agilent was kind enough to make the exception.
Loaded the wavegen license and it is working great! Definitely a thumb up for their customer service & sales.
I do feel that they should extend the deal to those early adopter who have already bought the scope. It is really no real cost to them but I am sure they would win many hearts with that move.
The free option deal is really good for those who are still hesitating about Agilent. With this freebie option it would be more value for money than Rigol in my opinion.
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Well I got my free upgrade license for the wavegen but it looks like Agilent sent the wrong license. It will not load on my scope. Screen shows "This license is not for this Oscilloscope. The license is not installed". Called Agilent and filed a support ticket for a new license.
A quick question to the people the received their upgrade. The file name is: FreeUpgradeProgram_******.lic. The numbers that are in the ******, Do these match your Ser#? Tech support could not tell me if they we supposed to be part of your ser#.
I bought my DSO-X 2012A at end of April and received the upgrade. Hopefully they are extending the time frame for eligibility.
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A quick question to the people the received their upgrade. The file name is: FreeUpgradeProgram_******.lic. The numbers that are in the ******, Do these match your Ser#?
The license files are XML. You should be able to view it (notepad will do) and see what it is for and what doesn't match your scope.
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The license files are XML. You should be able to view it (notepad will do) and see what it is for and what doesn't match your scope.
Thanks, took a look and everything seems ok as far as ser# and model#. Waiting on Agilent now.
Follow up, Agilent sent out new LIC file and all is fine now.
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I responded to lady who sent me e-mail about not having right for license and asking why a buyer like me is less important who bought the scope without anything free and just because i like Agilent and that this smells like Rigol policy "once we got your money' we dont care". One hour later i recieved response that im right and i will recieve my license in two days. Way to go Agilent !
I asked for MemUp since its only license not available as trial, all others i installed from trials and returned the date few years in past ;D
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I've requested (and received) free licenses for three different 3000 series scopes now. They were all purchased about 2 months ago, so it doesn't appear that they need to be purchased in the future.
It's also worth noting here that, from my initial tests, your free license doesn't seem to mind if you roll the clock back to use the free trial licenses once it's installed. However, your clock does need to be set correctly to get it installed in the first place, after which you'll need to roll the clock back and reinstall the trials.
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Any thoughts now on why Agilent has not openly broadcast this promotion?
I don't know why it popped up when it did while I was at their site. I haven't been able to find it since, and had to go back to my browser history to find the link. And a google search brings up nothing (but this link, now!!)
So I'm glad it works, and the folks here can take advantage of it. One of the perks of being part of the EEVblog community!
Murray
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Ok, I posted the offer link on Agilents oscilloscope facebook page. We'll see what happens...
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Thank you for sharing the info! Now i have a wave generator and the first thing i did was to calibrate the probes with it :)
Really i think we should thank Agilent for making it happen, they can choose to ignore those who have already bought the scope if they want to and they didn't.
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The link doesn't seem to be working for me. Is it still working ?
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Try this: https://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2058434&id=2058434 (https://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2058434&id=2058434)
(replace my information if it's there)
Murray
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I have a DSOX2014A which I bought on Feb 15, and applied for the free upgrade yesterday and got the licence today! So it still works.
I got the Wave Gen. Now I have all feature I want (I have the MSO upgrade, and soon seg mem as well). Thanks Agilent!
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Hey, How do the trial licences work? If they expire do the work again if I set the clock backwards? Or once they expire is is already too late? Also anyone figure out how to backup the memory?
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Hey, How do the trial licences work? If they expire do the work again if I set the clock backwards? Or once they expire is is already too late? Also anyone figure out how to backup the memory?
make a backup of them and if they expire you can reinstall them. After install set the date 2 years back so you dont have to worry about it all the time
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how do you make a backup of them? Doesn't the scope permanently remember if a trial ever expires and then permanently ban that trial from ever being installed again?
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You don't really need to make a backup, as such. The license is a file that gets sent to you by email and then installed into the scope, so just don't delete the original file.
The scope doesn't bother to blacklist anything, so if a license expires you can just roll the clock back and reinstall it. Easy.
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MSO/DPO2000 Series vs. Agilent MSO/DSO2000 X-Series Fact Sheet
http://www2.tek.com/cmsreplive/pirep/18196/3GW-26814-0_2011.03.21.11.29.05_18196_EN.pdf (http://www2.tek.com/cmsreplive/pirep/18196/3GW-26814-0_2011.03.21.11.29.05_18196_EN.pdf)
Video comparison
http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/pidetails.lotr?ct=PI&cs=cpc&ci=18611&lc=EN (http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/pidetails.lotr?ct=PI&cs=cpc&ci=18611&lc=EN)
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You don't really need to make a backup, as such. The license is a file that gets sent to you by email and then installed into the scope, so just don't delete the original file.
The scope doesn't bother to blacklist anything, so if a license expires you can just roll the clock back and reinstall it. Easy.
Anyone tried this on the older MSO5000/6000 series?
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MSO/DPO2000 Series vs. Agilent MSO/DSO2000 X-Series Fact Sheet
I love it how Tek's only major comeback is that "we have serial decode stuff" and Agilent don't, and more memory and some search/trigger capability.
Classic cherry picking marketing.
Forget price, the wavegen option, and the huge screen and update rate differences!
Agilent weren't even scared enough by that comparison to even include a serial option at this stage.
Dave.
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It will be nice for them to enable that dormant button and add some memory to shut Tek up for good :)
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Classic cherry picking marketing.
As usual for these kinds of comparisons.
Forget price, the wavegen option, and the huge screen and update rate differences!
I love your mention of price and wavegen option in the same sentence. Look, this scope is cheaper! And you can even get an overpriced function generator option!
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Video comparison
http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/pidetails.lotr?ct=PI&cs=cpc&ci=18611&lc=EN (http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/pidetails.lotr?ct=PI&cs=cpc&ci=18611&lc=EN)
How would you trigger on that runt pulse (in the video comparison) with the Agilent? Is it even important to be able to trigger on it, as long as you could see it?
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Video comparison
http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/pidetails.lotr?ct=PI&cs=cpc&ci=18611&lc=EN (http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/pidetails.lotr?ct=PI&cs=cpc&ci=18611&lc=EN)
How would you trigger on that runt pulse (in the video comparison) with the Agilent? Is it even important to be able to trigger on it, as long as you could see it?
Pulse width trigger
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It will be nice for them to enable that dormant button and add some memory to shut Tek up for good :)
Yeah, I DARE them!
Dave.
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I love your mention of price and wavegen option in the same sentence. Look, this scope is cheaper! And you can even get an overpriced function generator option!
At least it's an option if people want it, and a handy one. Even with the option I think it's still cheaper than the equivalent Tek scope.
All Agilent option, including WavGen are cheaper than the Tek options are, which are $725 each:
http://store.tektronix.com/Tektronix-DPO2014-Digital-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B004FSP7AG?ie=UTF8&id=Tektronix%20DPO2014%20Digital%20Phosphor%20Oscilloscope&field_product_site_launch_date_utc=-1y&field_availability=-1&field_browse=2245043011&searchSize=12&searchNodeID=2245043011&searchPage=1&refinementHistory=brandtextbin%2Csubjectbin%2Ccolor_map%2Cprice%2Csize_name&searchRank=salesrank (http://store.tektronix.com/Tektronix-DPO2014-Digital-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B004FSP7AG?ie=UTF8&id=Tektronix%20DPO2014%20Digital%20Phosphor%20Oscilloscope&field_product_site_launch_date_utc=-1y&field_availability=-1&field_browse=2245043011&searchSize=12&searchNodeID=2245043011&searchPage=1&refinementHistory=brandtextbin%2Csubjectbin%2Ccolor_map%2Cprice%2Csize_name&searchRank=salesrank)
Education people get WavGen for free, and everyone can get it for free at the moment with the special offer.
Dave.
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How would you trigger on that runt pulse (in the video comparison) with the Agilent? Is it even important to be able to trigger on it, as long as you could see it?
You can't. That's one of the areas Agilent crippled the 3000 to make the 2000. The Tek in the video costs about 35% more than the Agilent and that's after they cut the price by 25%. Without that 25% price cut the Tek would be around 15% more expensive than the Agilent 3000 equivalent and comparison with that model would be really embarrassing.
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The Tek in the video costs about 35% more than the Agilent and that's after they cut the price by 25%. Without that 25% price cut the Tek would be around 15% more expensive than the Agilent 3000 equivalent and comparison with that model would be really embarrassing.
Agilent's 3000 series equivalent MSOX3024A (http://uk.farnell.com/agilent-technologies/msox3024a/oscilloscope-4-16-channel-200-mhz/dp/1859745?Ntt=msox3024a) is still cheaper than Tek's 2000 series MSO2024 (http://uk.farnell.com/tektronix/mso2024/oscilloscope-mso-4ch-200mhz/dp/1650372?Ntt=mso2024). It wouldn't be marketing bullshit if Tek didn't twist things up to make themselves look good.
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Agilent's 3000 series equivalent MSOX3024A (http://uk.farnell.com/agilent-technologies/msox3024a/oscilloscope-4-16-channel-200-mhz/dp/1859745?Ntt=msox3024a) is still cheaper than Tek's 2000 series MSO2024 (http://uk.farnell.com/tektronix/mso2024/oscilloscope-mso-4ch-200mhz/dp/1650372?Ntt=mso2024).
That Tek price at farnell is 1k more than elsewhere.
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No free upgrade for me :(
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No free upgrade for me :(
Did you get the same e-mail as me at first? I dont understand why for some it works, for some people id does not. I registered my scope but it should not be a problem as reported from other people
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Agilent Technologies Oscilloscopes facebook post:
Rumor has it there is a new Easter Egg in the 1.20 SW release for the 2000 X-Series and 3000 X-Series - see if you can find it!
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Agilent Technologies Oscilloscopes facebook post:
Rumor has it there is a new Easter Egg in the 1.20 SW release for the 2000 X-Series and 3000 X-Series - see if you can find it!
Maybe its new iphone app located in "about oscilloscope" menu?
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Agilent Technologies Oscilloscopes facebook post:
Rumor has it there is a new Easter Egg in the 1.20 SW release for the 2000 X-Series and 3000 X-Series - see if you can find it!
I poked some random buttons and couldn't find it.
Dave.
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I poked some random buttons and couldn't find it.
Dave.
Did you try to see the "old" easter egg trick, maybe something changed there ? I will poke mine as soon i come home :)
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I poked some random buttons and couldn't find it.
Dave.
Did you try to see the "old" easter egg trick, maybe something changed there ? I will poke mine as soon i come home :)
Yep, it's the same.
dave.
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No free upgrade for me :(
Phone Agilent tech support and explain that you want the free update. I did and they were very helpful and I got a license within a couple of days.
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Where did people originally find the link to the offer? I only followed a link from this thread, but the form to be filled in implies that the offer was emailed out, and so I guess my email address didn't match any on their list.
It seems like some people just had this pop up while looking at Agilent's web site? In which case I don't know what email address they're looking for...
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My DSO-X3024A is officially dead :(
I wanted to probe the ESR meter i got today and turned my scope on while i prepare a probe. In that moment i received a phone call and answered my mobile phone. About 5 minutest later i seen my scope is still booting with following sequence "all channels lights on, wavegen light on, run/stop, single button light on" and over and over. I left the unit alone for 30 minutes thinking it will boot, but no luck. Then i cycled power and i got only 2 vertical lines of garbage (one in bottom, one in top), the scope after some time came to Agilent picture of mountain and repeating the sequence described above. I cycled the power couple of times more but it just comes to that boot cycle and nothing happens :(
Time to pack it up and ship it back, really disappointed
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Agilent Technologies Oscilloscopes: No clues yet, but I can tell you it is different from the team member Easter Egg.
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Agilent Technologies Oscilloscopes: No clues yet, but I can tell you it is different from the team member Easter Egg.
Maybe an animation of a guy in an Agilent T-Shirt pissing all over a Tek scope... ;D
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that could explain for hacklordsniper's brick scope :)
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My DSO-X3024A is officially dead :(
I wanted to probe the ESR meter i got today and turned my scope on while i prepare a probe. In that moment i received a phone call and answered my mobile phone. About 5 minutest later i seen my scope is still booting with following sequence "all channels lights on, wavegen light on, run/stop, single button light on" and over and over. I left the unit alone for 30 minutes thinking it will boot, but no luck. Then i cycled power and i got only 2 vertical lines of garbage (one in bottom, one in top), the scope after some time came to Agilent picture of mountain and repeating the sequence described above. I cycled the power couple of times more but it just comes to that boot cycle and nothing happens :(
Time to pack it up and ship it back, really disappointed
Failent Technologies.
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No free upgrade for me :(
Phone Agilent tech support and explain that you want the free update. I did and they were very helpful and I got a license within a couple of days.
What do you mean by this? I don't understand what everyone is talking about regarding the free update. I registered my oscilloscope and haven't received any offers in my email about it.
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My DSO-X3024A is officially dead :(
I wanted to probe the ESR meter i got today and turned my scope on while i prepare a probe. In that moment i received a phone call and answered my mobile phone. About 5 minutest later i seen my scope is still booting with following sequence "all channels lights on, wavegen light on, run/stop, single button light on" and over and over. I left the unit alone for 30 minutes thinking it will boot, but no luck. Then i cycled power and i got only 2 vertical lines of garbage (one in bottom, one in top), the scope after some time came to Agilent picture of mountain and repeating the sequence described above. I cycled the power couple of times more but it just comes to that boot cycle and nothing happens :(
Time to pack it up and ship it back, really disappointed
Bummer.
Sounds suspiciously like the problem I had.
I trust Agilent will take good care of you though.
I recon any failed scope should automatically get a free upgrade of your choice!
Dave.
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Dave it is very similiar to your fault but as i remembered your display didnt work, and my works. Also i dont have any vga/lan module installed like your scope. But it happened exactly first boot after installing my free license. I wonder is there a keypad combination to preform full factory reset at boot.
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No free upgrade for me :(
Phone Agilent tech support and explain that you want the free update. I did and they were very helpful and I got a license within a couple of days.
What do you mean by this? I don't understand what everyone is talking about regarding the free update. I registered my oscilloscope and haven't received any offers in my email about it.
Earlier in this thread a link was given to Agilent's free update page, it's https://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2058434 (https://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2058434)
I think orginally it only applied to new purchases of the scope which meant existing owners didn't get any notification. However, they seem to be letting previous purchasers to claim for the free update.
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No free upgrade for me :(
Phone Agilent tech support and explain that you want the free update. I did and they were very helpful and I got a license within a couple of days.
What do you mean by this? I don't understand what everyone is talking about regarding the free update. I registered my oscilloscope and haven't received any offers in my email about it.
Earlier in this thread a link was given to Agilent's free update page, it's https://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2058434 (https://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2058434)
I think orginally it only applied to new purchases of the scope which meant existing owners didn't get any notification. However, they seem to be letting previous purchasers to claim for the free update.
I just purchased the MSOX3034 from Farnell after I found the offer for free upgrade. I registered the instrument and send request for free upgrade, it was rejected. I suppose that they add the check if the email adresses are in some distribution list.
The MSOX is quite good instrument, but I have few notes : in the backgroud there is some noise, it comes from backlight inverter.
The knob are too loose and weak, compared to other instruments.
I'm glad the the fan is really silent. When I purchased the LCR meter 4980A few months ago, I was very close to return the unit. The fan inside meter can be compared to hair dryer :-)
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I think you should contact them on your new purchase.
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Has anyone else found this free upgrade link (other than here)??
I've asked the question a few times, but no response.
No Google hits, other than here, after I posted the link.
No comments on the Facebook posting.
What's it mean??
Murray
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No free upgrade for me :(
Phone Agilent tech support and explain that you want the free update. I did and they were very helpful and I got a license within a couple of days.
What do you mean by this? I don't understand what everyone is talking about regarding the free update. I registered my oscilloscope and haven't received any offers in my email about it.
Earlier in this thread a link was given to Agilent's free update page, it's https://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2058434 (https://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2058434)
I think orginally it only applied to new purchases of the scope which meant existing owners didn't get any notification. However, they seem to be letting previous purchasers to claim for the free update.
I just purchased the MSOX3034 from Farnell after I found the offer for free upgrade. I registered the instrument and send request for free upgrade, it was rejected. I suppose that they add the check if the email adresses are in some distribution list.
The MSOX is quite good instrument, but I have few notes : in the backgroud there is some noise, it comes from backlight inverter.
The knob are too loose and weak, compared to other instruments.
I'm glad the the fan is really silent. When I purchased the LCR meter 4980A few months ago, I was very close to return the unit. The fan inside meter can be compared to hair dryer :-)
Quote bonanza... So you are saying this things has a CFL backlight? Fuck that shit! I thought it had LED backlight. That thing will burn out and then you are stuck with a blank screen.
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Agilent Technologies Oscilloscopes:
We've had some questions on the Easter Egg - if no one has found it by Friday, I'll give some hints on Monday. In the meantime, I hear it has something to do with the TV show "Lost". One of our engineers is a big fan!
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Does anyone know if the new firmware disables the license hacks?
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Does anyone know if the new firmware disables the license hacks?
I didnot know there is any ?
Altrough there are trial licenses so there is no point in it except hacking the bandwith license
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You obviously didn't read the first 300 posts in this thread.
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You obviously didn't read the first 300 posts in this thread.
I guess i missed it. I remember there was some secure data tool leak but nothing specifically was done. I will read again just now...
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Does anyone know if the new firmware disables the license hacks?
I didnot know there is any ?
Altrough there are trial licenses so there is no point in it except hacking the bandwith license
...Until they make trial licenses expire permanently, which I'm surprised they don't already do. Or withdraw them.
Incidentally I just checked the Agilent site, and it is showing no trials for the 3000 series
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?nid=-33573.970755.00&cc=US&lc=eng (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?nid=-33573.970755.00&cc=US&lc=eng)
and only a few for the 2000 (no MSO, wavegen)
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?nid=-33575.970747.00&cc=US&lc=eng (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?nid=-33575.970747.00&cc=US&lc=eng)
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Well they cant do anything about trial licenses we allready have in our possesion except disabling them in next fw update somehow (not allowing the user to set clock anything later than date of release of latest fw, or something similiar).
There is no anymore trials there, you are right. I tough they will offer trials "forever" so people can try before they buy.
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It seems very odd that they've removed the trial licenses. Oddly enough, the trial for the U1881A power measurement software does seem to still be available.
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Maybe they've spotted the clock issue and are changing the firmware so it deletes expired licenses... I'm amazed this ever worked at all...
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Maybe they've spotted the clock issue and are changing the firmware so it deletes expired licenses... I'm amazed this ever worked at all...
I could bet that you are absolutely right. Probably they expect that bigger buyers like serious companies will not do that and they would just buy license they need.
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Maybe they've spotted the clock issue and are changing the firmware so it deletes expired licenses... I'm amazed this ever worked at all...
I could bet that you are absolutely right. Probably they expect that bigger buyers like serious companies will not do that and they would just buy license they need.
..of course it is possible that they quietly aren't too bothered about people circumventing the license system, as they'd likely never buy it, and it's effectively an incentive to sales, whearas corporate purchasers would probably just buy the spec they need in the first place.
BTW had a quick play with a 6000 trial (these are still on the website) & fiddling with the clock - after expiry it does appear to delete the license, but it doesn't seem to set any marker to prevent reinstallation after setting the clock back again. will know in about 14 days if there's anything more subtlehidden away...
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This crap to only give the wave gen to new customers just makes me sad. To make me pay $665 (yah guys, thats what the thing cost in sweden) for something they give away for free to others, it only makes them look like another "big bad company".
Here is my suggestion, Give it away to for free to students and anyone thats not a company. Or give me a deal, like buy a agilent multimeter and get it for free.
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So you are saying this things has a CFL backlight? Fuck that shit! I thought it had LED backlight. That thing will burn out and then you are stuck with a blank screen.
I don't think so - looking at the teardown pics you can see a flex cable coming out of the display and no sign of a CCFL inverter transformer, so it looks like LED.
And anyway CCFL's aren't that bad - My MSO6000 is about 7 years old and still fine, and you can get replacement CCFL tubes fairly easily so it's no big deal.
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I decided to box-up my DSO-X and send it back. I tried one more time to turn it on and as i left it it finaly did after ~ 10 minuttes. And now turns on normally but it takes little longer than it was before.
Im happy my scope is working again
Im not happy not knowing what is happening to it and if i return it now they will just return it back as working, no fault
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I decided to box-up my DSO-X and send it back. I tried one more time to turn it on and as i left it it finaly did after ~ 10 minuttes. And now turns on normally but it takes little longer than it was before.
Im happy my scope is working again
Im not happy not knowing what is happening to it and if i return it now they will just return it back as working, no fault
That almost sounds like it was doing some kind of flashing/resetting operation during start-up, or else it was in a bad state and maybe needed external input, and needed time to complete (or to timeout and revert to normal).
Good to know it's not a total hardware failure.
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I decided to box-up my DSO-X and send it back. I tried one more time to turn it on and as i left it it finaly did after ~ 10 minuttes. And now turns on normally but it takes little longer than it was before.
I have seen mine get stuck on power up looping a sequence of button LEDs with (I think) blank screen a couple of times. Just quickly cycled power and it came up OK. It never did that before installing the 01.20.2011063000 firmware update.
I would imagine the LEDs indicate progress through booting and/or self test and something is failing and restarting or looping.
I suspect it is a marginal firmware bug in the new version. Has anyone tried 'downgrading' firmware? Might be a solution if yours is particularly prone to the problem.
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Easter egg hint from Agilent:
It has something to do with the TV show "Lost"
It also is activated through the soft key buttons - it doesn't have anything to do with the knobs and/or buttons above the BNCs.
Other finds:
When you press WAVEGEN then Settings, pressing the second softkey from the right 4 times, a window pops up showing the function generator parameters. Pressing the softkey 4 more time, the window closes. That's not mentioned in the User's Guide.
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Whatever i tried i could not find the easter egg :(
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It seems very odd that they've removed the trial licenses. Oddly enough, the trial for the U1881A power measurement software does seem to still be available.
Just did some digging, and found that although the trials page is empty, there are still trial request links on the product pages for the individual licenses. This also applies to older scopes.
Start here (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?nid=-35491.0.00&cc=GB&lc=eng) and filter by your scope model, then select the option and find the trials tab.
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Your scope has one leg out the door, better don't kill for the sake of an easter egg :)
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Your scope has one leg out the door, better don't kill for the sake of an easter egg :)
Well my scope is getting harder and harder to boot every time. I regret for buying it. I also regret that they better did not implement something more useful in this scope that a easter egg probably showing something from stupid tv series, this is not a toy its high-end oscilloscope. But since its already inside i wanted to see it.
I will poke my scope little bit more before i ship it to Agilent. Im hoping maybe in closer future they will solve problems and will replace my scope with revised error free scope when this one flies away to silicon heaven >:(
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If the error is repeatable but transient, video it and ship the scope back with a video of the CD or even a youtube link, and explain how the error occurs. We've already done this with the DMM 1272a bug. Keep us posted with their response.
I decided to box-up my DSO-X and send it back. I tried one more time to turn it on and as i left it it finaly did after ~ 10 minuttes. And now turns on normally but it takes little longer than it was before.
Im happy my scope is working again
Im not happy not knowing what is happening to it and if i return it now they will just return it back as working, no fault
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Give them a call. I am sure agilent will solve your problem.
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Has anyone else found this free upgrade link (other than here)??
I've asked the question a few times, but no response.
No Google hits, other than here, after I posted the link.
No comments on the Facebook posting.
What's it mean??
Murray
I just receive the free option, but bellow is the additional information.
Thank you for your purchase of an Agilent oscilloscope. The offer of a free upgrade was a limited time offer to people who received and completed a special "offer" registration. Since you did not complete that registration, you are technically not eligible for this offer, as explained in the original email below. However, since the correct process and eligibility requirements were not clear, we will fulfill your request for an upgrade at no charge. You should receive an email with the details of your free upgrade within the next 2 days.
I apologize for any confusion and hope you continue to choose Agilent oscilloscope.
Sincerely,
Agilent Technologies Oscilloscopes
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Ok, that makes sense. It's a plus for Agilent that they are willing to extend the offer beyond what they originally planned. Though seems as word got out, it would be hard to limit it...
Murray
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Yes, I got a similar message. No license yet though.
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At first I got a refusal, then I insited a bit, and finally got a similar response (actually, the exact same ...).
Got the license yesterday :)
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Agilent Technologies Oscilloscopes:
The easter egg has been found! For those of you who would like to see it, use the back button until there are no softkey menus displayed, then using the softkey buttons 1-6 (from left to right) enter the following key combination:
1 - 6 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 2
now there's a down counter on the bottom left of the screen that started at 108.
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After the countdown finishes there is some strange symbols probably from the series. They disapear after reboot
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Didn't wait the the end of the entire count down. Just pressed key 6 4times it returned back to normal.
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Maybe they've spotted the clock issue and are changing the firmware so it deletes expired licenses... I'm amazed this ever worked at all...
I could bet that you are absolutely right. Probably they expect that bigger buyers like serious companies will not do that and they would just buy license they need.
BTW had a quick play with a 6000 trial (these are still on the website) & fiddling with the clock - after expiry it does appear to delete the license, but it doesn't seem to set any marker to prevent reinstallation after setting the clock back again. will know in about 14 days if there's anything more subtlehidden away...
Just to confirm 16 days after installing MSO6000 trials and winding the clock back to 2001 they are still working - anyone tried the trials on the new DSOX firmware?
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I can confirm all trials work fine on the DSO-X 3000 new firmware, i have them installed from the day of release (not sure when it was)
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Re-watching Dave's review of the Agilent 2000 X Series Infiniivision scope with the inclination to buy, I don't see much mention of the triggering capabilities.
From what I can see in the review, and from looking through the manual online, the scope appears to missing two of the most basic triggering functions found on the cheaper DSOs - slope (rise / fall time) - and alternate (separate triggers for each channel). While I can see getting by without the slope triggering, it seems to me the lack of alternate triggers really limits the power of a two (or more) channel scope - especially if you only want the DSO - not the MSO.
But perhaps I've missed something. Can any owner of one of the 2000 series please let me know if it does in fact allow you to set separate triggers for each channel? Thanks!
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I can't think why either of these trigger modes would be very useful, although alt would be easy enough for them to implement.
In fact I find that the fact that Autoscale on my Owon handleld scope enables alt triggering really annoying, as it gives confusing results when you are looking at the relationship between waveforms (e.g. clock and data) and don't realise it's in Alt trig mode.
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I can't think why either of these trigger modes would be very useful, although alt would be easy enough for them to implement.
Seriously? I think it's a really nice feature of DSOs (at least I never saw an analog scope with it) - for when you're trying to look closely at two signals related in time - but not linked by a common element (edge, width, etc) to trigger them both on. Having just gotten my first DSO 2 months ago (after 30 odd years of analog scopes), I've already used it on several occasions.
In fact I find that the fact that Autoscale.....
Now that's something I don't find useful! :)
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In fact I find that the fact that Autoscale.....
Now that's something I don't find useful! :)
Can't say I use it much on a desktop scope, but quite useful on a handleld which has a more fiddly user interface.
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I don't think there is alternate trigger. And the measurement is limited to 4 i think...total waste of screen space and too little to work with on a 4 channel scope.
They should improve the usability of the scope by learning from the cheaper scope. I hope Agilent is listening and improving on the firmware.
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I don't think there is alternate trigger. And the measurement is limited to 4 i think...total waste of screen space and too little to work with on a 4 channel scope.
They should improve the usability of the scope by learning from the cheaper scope. I hope Agilent is listening and improving on the firmware.
Not sure how often it would be useful to look at more then 4 measurements at a time - don't think I've ever used more than 2 - being able to see most of the screen is more important most of the time.
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Not sure how often it would be useful to look at more then 4 measurements at a time - don't think I've ever used more than 2
It depends on the work you're doing - with a 2-channel scope, 4 seems too few to me already - for audio work I usually want at least RMS and frequency per channel. For a 4-channel scope, 4 seems a ridiculously small amount.
- being able to see most of the screen is more important most of the time.
This is a specious argument - in the video you can clearly see that the Agilent logo in the side-menu takes up space that 2 more measurements could hold - why do we need to see the Agilent logo on the screen? Why don't they compress the Acquisition info down to 2 lines instead of three? Even the lowly Owon scope I recently reviewed, when more than 4 measurements are added, rearranges a bit of the screen to accommodate 4 more. There is a lot of static screen display on the Agilent which could be put to dual use without overlapping the active waveform area at all.
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I just noticed another thing oddly missing from the Infiniivision X-series scopes. I know Dave mentioned the lack of an arbitrary waveform capability - but even more annoying (from my point of view) is the lack of a sweep function. Why on earth would you want an FG without that?
BTW, I don't think any of these 'omissions' by Agilent will stop me from purchasing their scope - but they are worth noting - and complaining to Agilent about. Again, if I'm wrong (since I'm only working off info gleaned from the manual), please let me know otherwise.
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I just noticed another thing oddly missing from the Infiniivision X-series scopes. I know Dave mentioned the lack of an arbitrary waveform capability - but even more annoying (from my point of view) is the lack of a sweep function. Why on earth would you want an FG without that?
Same reason there is no arb capability. You wouldn't need to buy Agilent's separate function generators, and that's bad news for them.
Dave.
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Now that they have a 'killer' scope, why more make it a better one with an full featured generator. Perhaps then the people who are initially thinking of getting a 20mhz function generator might end up getting an 'additional' scope.
With or without the features people might not buy the function generator from them anyway.
May be an MBA is required to make sense of the self crippling act :)
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May be an MBA is required to make sense of the self crippling act :)
Bingo!
Dave.
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Trade-up to an Agilent 2000 X / 3000 X-Series Scope, Save 15%, Simply trade-in any ?50 MHz bandwidth oscilloscope, working or not:
http://www.testequity.com/static/265/ (http://www.testequity.com/static/265/)
and buy one get one free offer:
http://www.testequity.com/static/266/ (http://www.testequity.com/static/266/)
Tek has discounted their TDS2000c series and it is now cheaper than DSOX2000. Attractive pricing :)
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=86R8482&CMP=AFC-GB100000001 (http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=86R8482&CMP=AFC-GB100000001)
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Trade-up to an Agilent 2000 X / 3000 X-Series Scope, Save 15%, Simply trade-in any ?50 MHz bandwidth oscilloscope, working or not:
From the official Agilent announcement:
Promotion code: 5.853
Availability: United States, Canada, Latin America, Korea, and Asia countries other than China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan.
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Looks like a new firmware exists, 1.21 8) Can still install trial licenses and wind the clock back (but only to 2009?) ... will find out in 14 days if they stay though
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Tek has discounted their TDS2000c series and it is now cheaper than DSOX2000. Attractive pricing :)
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=86R8482&CMP=AFC-GB100000001 (http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=86R8482&CMP=AFC-GB100000001)
Shame the TDS2000 isn't even in the same league. Even at the heavily discounted prices Tek are offering, the DSOX2000 is killing them.
Dave.
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Trade-up to an Agilent 2000 X / 3000 X-Series Scope, Save 15%, Simply trade-in any ?50 MHz bandwidth oscilloscope, working or not:
http://www.testequity.com/static/265/ (http://www.testequity.com/static/265/)
Looks like you don't even have to ship it to them ::)
Agilent are now offering a FREE 3000 series scope if you buy a 7000 or 9000 series scope.
Giving'em away!
I'd love to know what Agilent's build cost is on these new scopes.
Dave.
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Looks like a new firmware exists, 1.21 8) Can still install trial licenses and wind the clock back (but only to 2009?) ... will find out in 14 days if they stay though
Where did you see that ? I still see 1.20 on their website.
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Its on a scope that was just delivered, I cant find any info on the Agilent website either.
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Looking at all the options on those new scopes - and there are a lot -, I was wondering about the DSOX3MEMUP option: does anyone know whether this one requires you to send your scope for service like a 100/200 to 300+ BW upgrade, or is this also a pure "license" option? It's not clear on the Agilent website, and this option is not very well documented anywhere either...
Thanks!
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Looking at all the options on those new scopes - and there are a lot -, I was wondering about the DSOX3MEMUP option: does anyone know whether this one requires you to send your scope for service like a 100/200 to 300+ BW upgrade, or is this also a pure "license" option? It's not clear on the Agilent website, and this option is not very well documented anywhere either...
Thanks!
Its only a license upgrade, i got it free during recent Agilent free licenses give away. It is a one of licenses you cant get as trial.
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Looking at all the options on those new scopes - and there are a lot -, I was wondering about the DSOX3MEMUP option: does anyone know whether this one requires you to send your scope for service like a 100/200 to 300+ BW upgrade, or is this also a pure "license" option? It's not clear on the Agilent website, and this option is not very well documented anywhere either...
It's just a license mod.
All the 2000 and 3000 series scopes have the same ASIC with 4M of sample memory, so it's just software crippled.
So if competitors bring out high sample memory low end products, Agilent can simply up the memory on the 2000 series too.
Dave.
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Its only a license upgrade, i got it free during recent Agilent free licenses give away. It is a one of licenses you cant get as trial.
Thanks! Makes sense, I suppose it matches the "am4M_3k" option name that was in the list earlier in the forums...
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Probably but never checked it. I bough some options, all other are installed as trials (with clock winded back few years) and the memory upgrade was the only missing until the license give away.
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The 3000x hardware counter can read pretty high, setting on the sig gen was actually 1.4GHz :) At 1.5GHz it cant get a lock on it.
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http://www.home.agilent.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Agilent_2000X_3000X_Series_Oscilloscope_Readme_0200.pdf (http://www.home.agilent.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Agilent_2000X_3000X_Series_Oscilloscope_Readme_0200.pdf)
New firmware allows arbitrary waveform generation for the 3000 series scopes.
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Just updated!!!!
My boot problem is still present but the trial licenses are dead now!
The scope does not allow to set the date any more back in past than 13.10.2011! Do not install this if you use trial licenses!!!
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My boot problem is still present
Have you tried to contact Agilent to get that fixed?
Regards,
Janne
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My boot problem is still present
Have you tried to contact Agilent to get that fixed?
Regards,
Janne
The Agilent distributer sold me it "under the counter" without invoice (and slightly better price), now no warranty claims accepted
It works okay, when i manage to get it to boot :(
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Why don't you try registering online with your serial no an see what happens. I don't think a receipt is required for that.
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Why don't you try registering online with your serial no an see what happens. I don't think a receipt is required for that.
It works nicely, alltrough the serial did not have right for free license upgrade and got it after a nice e-mail to Agilent. But that does not help me as there is in my country only that one service point which does not want it back. Well sometimes its easy to make a great mistake and mine was buying a faulty scope from an Agilent rep, actually i think my biggest mistake is for even buying this scope
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http://www.home.agilent.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Agilent_2000X_3000X_Series_Oscilloscope_Readme_0200.pdf (http://www.home.agilent.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Agilent_2000X_3000X_Series_Oscilloscope_Readme_0200.pdf)
New firmware allows arbitrary waveform generation for the 3000 series scopes.
the 2000 got new FW too - although looks like no new features.
s
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Yes, so for 2000x it's better to get some trail licenses, wind back the watch and enjoy them forever. 8)
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Yes, so for 2000x it's better to get some trail licenses, wind back the watch and enjoy them forever. 8)
Exactly. I have a real license files too and i tried copying headers and signatures to old trial licenses and various tricks but affcourse it does not work :P
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Just a quick note, for anyone with a 2000 series scope. I notice that in the 2.0 update, the license keys which existed for serial-decode options, are no longer present.
So far as I know, those keys could not be activated, though perhaps it could be done by some additional trick. However on cursory inspection, it seems that all references to this capability have been removed from the 2k scopes, perhaps also including any dormant code to make the features work (though presumably the bulk is still in there, as it is shared with the 3k).
I'm guessing Agilent are in no hurry to add this to the low end models.
I've not upgraded my scope just yet...
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why they bother to call it 2.0 for the 2000x series, make sense for 3000x but not the 2000x update. No rant on this Dave?
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They're probably derived from the same code base, so the 2000x release might share other changes and updates. A new major version number doesn't necessarily mean that momentous new features have been added.
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There certainly doesn't seem to be any incentive for 2000 owners to update. At least the 3000 owners got a carrot for giving up exploitation of the trial licenses!
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At least the 3000 owners got a carrot for giving up exploitation of the trial licenses!
But we got arb funcionality for the FG :P
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why they bother to call it 2.0 for the 2000x series, make sense for 3000x but not the 2000x update. No rant on this Dave?
Not really. It's probably the same code with the same bug fixes between them.
Makes complete sense to keep them at the same code revision level.
Dave.
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Not really. It's probably the same code with the same bug fixes between them.
Makes complete sense to keep them at the same code revision level.
I don't know. I suppose if you say it as just a pure technical change perhaps but then I wonder why a jump from 1.2 to 2.0. It has to mean something substantial even as a code change technically.
At least now a cripple ARB is added to be inline with the crippled scope mentality. Great crippled work Agilent :)
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Does anyone know whether there is a way on the DSOX3 series, to stream "lister" data over USB or on the LAN, i.e. the decoded data stream from the logic analyzer? Or to save a long stream to USB to later analyze long dumps? Would be a very useful function!
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Has anybody tried trial licenses on the DSOX3 series scope with firmware version 2.0? Is it still possible to install trial licenses, shift the date back and use options forever? I know it's not possible to set the older date than 13.10.2011, but it is the only information which I've found. I would like to use some functions of new firmware, but I don't know whether it is good idea to upgrade from 1.21 to 2.0.
Thanks
Tomas
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I'm also interested.
Maybe there is no risk of loosing trial lisenses if firmware can be downgraded form 2.00 back to 1.21 after try-out 2.0.
Can it be downgraded?
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Hi please me 1.21 firmware file for downgrade my 3034A
Thks
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Hi Sgyuri,
Why would you like to downgrade ?
Does your question imply that the time trick does not work on the newest firmware with regard to the trial licences?
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Hi Blue
I have not tried. A license to expire tomorrow (21.02.2012) and getting ready.
Security preparations. :)
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Hi Sgyuri,
Please set the time back to the beginning of time.
And tell us if your trials licences are still working...
Thank you
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Does your question imply that the time trick does not work on the newest firmware with regard to the trial licences?
The time trick does work on 2.00, however 2.00 does not allow the date to be set back further than october of 2011 (or something like that... I don't remember the date with any certainty) so if your trial licenses expired before then you are out of luck.
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Join. Works for me. Fortunately, all the license the date you asked for, so just keep datáumot to this province..
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Does your question imply that the time trick does not work on the newest firmware with regard to the trial licences?
The time trick does work on 2.00, however 2.00 does not allow the date to be set back further than october of 2011 (or something like that... I don't remember the date with any certainty) so if your trial licenses expired before then you are out of luck.
Has anyone checked if the date can be set back using the remote command ?
http://www.home.agilent.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/3000_series_prog_guide.pdf?&cc=GB&lc=eng (http://www.home.agilent.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/3000_series_prog_guide.pdf?&cc=GB&lc=eng) Page 815
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Maybe it is possible to use Agilent Command Expert to automate setting the date. :-) (A free download)
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?ckey=2036130&id=2036130&nid=-33373.992473.00&cmpid=zzfindcommandexpert&lc=eng&cc=US (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?ckey=2036130&id=2036130&nid=-33373.992473.00&cmpid=zzfindcommandexpert&lc=eng&cc=US)
-k
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I think you can enter commands via the web interface
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I seem to remember trying to install Agilent's software, and I couldn't find a PC with low enough spec.
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Someone has managed to generate licens file?
I need a MSO License
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I need a MSO License
Call Agilent. They are for sure happy to sell you one.
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Has anyone checked if the date can be set back using the remote command ?
http://www.home.agilent.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/3000_series_prog_guide.pdf?&cc=GB&lc=eng (http://www.home.agilent.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/3000_series_prog_guide.pdf?&cc=GB&lc=eng) Page 815
No go. For dates prior to 2011.10.13 the response is "Data out of range" and sometimes "settings conflict" on firmware 2.00.2011101301
Probably we can expect that date to be updated with each firmware release, which is very sad for hobbyists indeed. :'( I wonder how likely it would be that Agilent might consider implementing hobbyist/non-commercial pricing for the licences and LAN/VGA modules in a range that we can actually afford. They've managed to bring the scopes themselves into range, which is awesome, but then why keep the optional extras so far out of reach?
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Probably we can expect that date to be updated with each firmware release, which is very sad for hobbyists indeed. :'( I wonder how likely it would be that Agilent might consider implementing hobbyist/non-commercial pricing for the licences and LAN/VGA modules in a range that we can actually afford. They've managed to bring the scopes themselves into range, which is awesome, but then why keep the optional extras so far out of reach?
Simple business, and profit motive.
The same reason why even the cheaper brands like Rigol charge extra for software options.
It's not a charity.
Sure, Agilent could probably sell a 200MHz scope with all the software/memory bells and whistles for under $1K, and still likely make a profit. But it's not much of a profit, and it would just drag the entire scope industry down in a classic "race to the bottom".
So the manufacturers all know to play the game and make as much profit as they can get away with.
Dave.
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I wonder how likely it would be that Agilent might consider implementing hobbyist/non-commercial pricing for the licences and LAN/VGA modules in a range that we can actually afford. They've managed to bring the scopes themselves into range, which is awesome, but then why keep the optional extras so far out of reach?
VGA isn't particularly useful, and is fairly complicated due to the FPGA- LAN however looks like little more than connecting a magjack, assuming the software recognises it. I think someone here was looking into it.
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Simple business, and profit motive.
The same reason why even the cheaper brands like Rigol charge extra for software options.
It's not a charity.
Sure, Agilent could probably sell a 200MHz scope with all the software/memory bells and whistles for under $1K, and still likely make a profit. But it's not much of a profit, and it would just drag the entire scope industry down in a classic "race to the bottom".
So the manufacturers all know to play the game and make as much profit as they can get away with.
Dave.
Would the big for-profit businesses actually risk legal action from Agilent by disguising themselves as hobbyists just to get the hobbyist price and save a few thousand bucks? It has been my experience that the average business doesn't even risk pirating windows, and that's about as mundane as it gets for piracy I think.
I guess I'm assuming that the businesses would play it safe and pay the normal price for their features so Agilent still gets their big bucks as usual, then the hobbyists could get to have some of those same features at a much more realistic price which would then be even more money in Agilent's pockets, and we would all live happier ever after. Hypothetically the bulk of Agilent's sales wouldn't change at all, but they'd have a new source of income from hobbyists buying options at hobbyist-only prices.
It seems that the bottom line questions would be: how many businesses would reduce Agilent's income by cheating and taking the non-commercial price, and how many hobbyists would increase Agilent's income by bringing them sales which they otherwise wouldn't have made at the astronomically high commercial price, and which way would that end up tipping the scales?
I guess I'm just being naive as I don't really have any exposure to the corporate world, but I see a lot of hobbyists out there from my vantage point who are all eager to finally have some of the conveniences which have thus far been unobtainable. We're almost all willing to take what we want as long as no harm is done, but we'd very much prefer having the option to give something back for it in return.
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VGA isn't particularly useful, and is fairly complicated due to the FPGA- LAN however looks like little more than connecting a magjack, assuming the software recognises it. I think someone here was looking into it.
Sad but true. I really, really wish that LAN had just been a standard option. It would be very handy for me. As for the VGA, I really miss being able to display waveforms on a spare monitor. My lab setup is such that being able to see what's happening on my scope from across the room is rather handy. Not $500 handy, but probably $100 handy. Actually, now that I think about it, LAN and VGA could probably have been either/or options for me. How ironic that they come together on the same add-on module. :-\
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Would the big for-profit businesses actually risk legal action from Agilent by disguising themselves as hobbyists just to get the hobbyist price and save a few thousand bucks? It has been my experience that the average business doesn't even risk pirating windows, and that's about as mundane as it gets for piracy I think.
I guess I'm assuming that the businesses would play it safe and pay the normal price for their features so Agilent still gets their big bucks as usual, then the hobbyists could get to have some of those same features at a much more realistic price which would then be even more money in Agilent's pockets, and we would all live happier ever after. Hypothetically the bulk of Agilent's sales wouldn't change at all, but they'd have a new source of income from hobbyists buying options at hobbyist-only prices.
It seems that the bottom line questions would be: how many businesses would reduce Agilent's income by cheating and taking the non-commercial price, and how many hobbyists would increase Agilent's income by bringing them sales which they otherwise wouldn't have made at the astronomically high commercial price, and which way would that end up tipping the scales?
I guess I'm just being naive as I don't really have any exposure to the corporate world, but I see a lot of hobbyists out there from my vantage point who are all eager to finally have some of the conveniences which have thus far been unobtainable. We're almost all willing to take what we want as long as no harm is done, but we'd very much prefer having the option to give something back for it in return.
You forgot about the administration cost of trying to enforce all this, just like education licenses for things take a lot of effort to enforce.
If it was as easy as ticking a box on the online order form ("I'm a hobbyist") and you instantly get your discount of freebie, then you can bet your bottom dollar everyone would be ticking the box.
This is an age old argument and can be said about almost every product and market like this.
It is much easier to do, and to find compelling arguments for non-physical products like EDA software, but in the end it's the same argument, what do you provide to who and for how much?
The idea of giving all the bells and whistles in a hardware product to a hobbyist is questionable. Because then when (if) they move into the professional circles, will they upgrade that gear? Where is the upgrade path? They already got the top-notch product at a give-away price.
But at the end of the day, Agilent's market has and always will be professionals. There is likely very little business case for them to give special deals to target hobbyists.
Dave.
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But at the end of the day, Agilent's market has and always will be professionals. There is likely very little business case for them to give special deals to target hobbyists.
Dave.
True but I do sometimes wonder why they haven't locked down trials more than they could (easily) have done, don't require any sort of agreement to terms when requesting them, and don't forward details from trial requests to distributors for follow-up sales calls.
BTW has anyone tried requesting a new trial after one died due to an expiry before a FW update?
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True but I do sometimes wonder why they haven't locked down trials more than they could (easily) have done, don't require any sort of agreement to terms when requesting them, and don't forward details from trial requests to distributors for follow-up sales calls.
Maybe it's because their sales numbers (and income) is so massively professionally oriented, that they simply don't care about the dregs.
i.e. the vast majority of customer aren't spending their own money, but the companies money, so they would never bother to rip off a license.
And those who might try and rip them off/hack things is so far down in the financial noise they can't even measure it? (no T&M pun intended)
Dave.
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I need a MSO License
Call Agilent. They are for sure happy to sell you one.
Dear Friend!
Joy and happiness have caused me.
Exciting and gave extensive effort.
Post your good humor to entertain him.
sgyuri
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I am not saying I want anything for free. When you go with Agilent you know you have to pay up.
I don't want features being more expensive, because Agilent has to manage them separately. And also in my job, I don't want to have to deal with ordering options and licenses. Ordering them are a hassle. You order the wrong one, or someone gets it wrong. Or your boss removes the item from the order, thinking you are just wasting money, and not telling you. Your purchase department screws up. And money for licenses come from another budget, requiring additional approval. If it is a license, the license administration policy and the police enforcing it comes into play. Arrrrg :( ...
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Firmware 2.10 for 3000-X available:
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2102277&nid=-35491.973678&id=2102277 (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2102277&nid=-35491.973678&id=2102277)
2000-X:
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2014479&nid=-35491.973676&id=2014479 (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2014479&nid=-35491.973676&id=2014479)
Release Notes:
http://www.home.agilent.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Agilent_2000X_3000X_Series_Oscilloscope_Readme_0210.pdf (http://www.home.agilent.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Agilent_2000X_3000X_Series_Oscilloscope_Readme_0210.pdf)
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and new manual
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/75019-97051.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/75019-97051.pdf)
Firmware installed :-) and to get the DVM you press the Analyze button and select DVM from softbutton 1 (Features)
and DVM is still available even if channel is disabled.
quite nice :-)
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Hi,
True, but the whole board replacement sounds like an expensive method for a “fully upgradable scope” and what happens with the old board? The lower models also come with a different set of probes included.
Where are you guys seeing the securedatatool.exe thing
Inside the first .cab file you will find infiniiVisionSetup.cab. Extract this and read _setup.xml to find the original files names (just rename, no compression is used)
AGILEN~1.002 -> Agilent.Cdf.Api.dll
INFINI~1.017 -> infiniiVisionCore.dll
Open the infiniiVisionCore.dll with a resource editor like PE Explorer to extract the secure data tool. Agilent.Cdf.Api.dll seems to be where the license info is checked and has 2 1024 bit (public) keys. The private key of one can be found in the secure tool.
E: 0x10001
P: 57...
Q: vi...
N: rB.......
D: lv.......
Not going to dig any deeper, I don’t even have the scope. Maybe if I had a few beers before seeing Dave’s review I had one by now ;D
I know this post is quite old already, but does anyone have that old firmware version so that I can extract the tool from it ?
Newer firmware versions don't include the tool anymore ;)
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Bear in mind Agilent were aware of the mistake, and could have changed keys in later firmware.
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Bear in mind Agilent were aware of the mistake, and could have changed keys in later firmware.
I'm aware of that. I just want to have a look at it.
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There are new "license" options: asv_3k & cableCal_3k No idea what they're for.
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Hi,
I just got my X2014. As Dave mentioned in his vid, the 2000 series is only capable of "measuring" frequency upon what's on screen, so that is neither very accurate nor even possible when zooming in too far.
However there's a cool feature with the DVM (which you basically get for free with the current offers): It has a frequency display of it's own which is (my guess) based on the *hardware* counter. So no matter what's on screen, you get a steady and reliable 5-digit frequency readout. Thought anyone interested in the scope might wanna know, I like it alot. 8)
Also, the voltage readouts are more steady and accurate, and obviously based on a different source than the screen readout you get from "measurements". So you actually do get quite some value for your $75,- if you're considering upgrading an earlier model.
Regards
Sven
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You always had access to the hw counter in the measurements as well, it's not under "frequency", it is under "counter".
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Ah, hadn't found that one yet, thanks :)
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You always had access to the hw counter in the measurements as well, it's not under "frequency", it is under "counter".
Does the 2000X series have that? I was thinking it was on the 3000X series only.
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Well I just checked and nope, on the 2000 there is no "counter" option available in the measurements (FW 2.10). Not sure if tnt found it somewhere else?
There are counters listed in the snapshot screen, but again on the 2000 you do not get any values there (only "--"). Same for a few other measurements that are probably 3000 only.
So yeah, it seems the only access to the hw counter on the 2000 is via the DVM.
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I have a 3054X ... I didn't know it wasn't on the 2000-X.
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There are new "license" options: asv_3k & cableCal_3k No idea what they're for.
ASV is Agilent Spectrum Visualiser :-) and just upgraded to 2.11 and tried it - it is a neat little "spectrum analyser (analyzer for US guys) - and on the 2000 and 3000 series it can start the wavegen and output 20MHz sine wave, 10MHz pulse or just pulse.
It scans the full bandwidth of your scope - and makes nice FFT displays (on the pc) and makes spectrogram displays (waterfall or horizontal)
quite neat.
I have not found the CableCal_3k yet.
anyhow - nice extension and price is about Euro 400.
PDF Link : http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5991-0129EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5991-0129EN.pdf)
/Kaz
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There are new "license" options: asv_3k & cableCal_3k No idea what they're for.
Looking forward to see what cableCal_3k means :-)
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Has agilent made License only upgrades obsolete?
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-7759EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-7759EN.pdf) - this document suggest so. I was interested in a MSOX3024 but can't afford it all at once. I was hoping to buy the DSOX3014 and upgrading that later on as I needed the additional bandwidth and serial decoding.
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Has agilent made License only upgrades obsolete?
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-7759EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-7759EN.pdf) - this document suggest so. I was interested in a MSOX3024 but can't afford it all at once. I was hoping to buy the DSOX3014 and upgrading that later on as I needed the additional bandwidth and serial decoding.
My reading of that is that only upgrades that go over 350MHz require return - it's not quite clear what is now obsolete
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My reading of that is that only upgrades that go over 350MHz require return - it's not quite clear what is now obsolete
For the 3000X, there are three hardware platform models that share the same hardware:
100MHz and 200MHz
300MHz and 500MHz
and 1GHz is on it's own.
So you can software upgrade from 100 to 200, or 300 to 500, but not from say 200 to 300, or 500 to 1GHz, those require a complete main board change.
So take this into account when buying.
Dave.
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So I got the DSOX2004A. Standard package with free DVM and WAVEGEN licences.
I also own an old RIGOL DS1022CD (with LA). Its for sale, BTW (PM me)
When comparing Agilent to RIGOL..
The good:
1. Less fan noise.
2. no bugs so far
3. responsive
4. big screen
5. and all the usual stuff you get for more money.
The bad:
1. Less memory. The rigol has 8 megs. That's a huge downgrade. Can't get used to less memory in agilent.
2. No digital filters?!? C'mon Agilent, really? It's not that cheap to not have this function.
So the questions... Do X2000 series have digital filters for analogue channels? My usual projects require me to have such functionality. It's a bit no-go to use passive filters on leads...
Has anyone figured out the thing with additional 'free' licenses? I would really love having a LA and some serial decoding features. Not paying the big buck of cause.
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The bad:
1. Less memory. The rigol has 8 megs. That's a huge downgrade. Can't get used to less memory in agilent.
2. No digital filters?!? C'mon Agilent, really? It's not that cheap to not have this function.
So the questions... Do X2000 series have digital filters for analogue channels? My usual projects require me to have such functionality. It's a bit no-go to use passive filters on leads...
Yes, it's kind of incredible that digital filters are only available on the X3000 series (in the Advanced Math option). There are some obvious software absences on the X2000 series which seem to be in there only to try to justify the much higher price of the X3000 series, since they are widely available on low-priced scopes from other manufacturers.
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The Rigol only has 1Mpt, or 500kpt over two channels. The 2000X starts with 100kpt - in my mind, this is too little for such a nice scope with such powerful display features. Minimum 1Mpt per two channels I think.
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Still hanging on the firmwares...
I would like to upgarde my 3014A's fw1.20 to newer one, but don't want to loose the trial licenses.
Does anybody have any suggestions, how to do it?
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The Rigol only has 1Mpt, or 500kpt over two channels. The 2000X starts with 100kpt - in my mind, this is too little for such a nice scope with such powerful display features. Minimum 1Mpt per two channels I think.
We can only hope that as Agilent get more pressure from the likes of Rigol, they will start upping the memory and add the serial decode on the 2000X
The 2000X has 4M internally, they just cripple it in software.
Dave.
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OK, found some bugs...
1. Amplitude.
5V/div:
(http://i.imgur.com/aMFnO.png)
2V/div:
(http://i.imgur.com/Vvkci.png)
Closer look timewise:
(http://i.imgur.com/OCeiQ.png)
I do know what clipping is. This zooming in was never a problem with Rigol.
2. Sensitivity in 10-50mV range.
50mV/div scale:
(http://i.imgur.com/z7oXx.png)
20mV/div scale:
(http://i.imgur.com/WsQ8L.png)
10mV/div scale:
(http://i.imgur.com/MC5AL.png)
Notice the scaling of chan #2. It is scaled "in software". So Agilent is bulshitting us.
3. Also there is a problem with rare pulses (sorry, don't have a screenshot): The signal is recorded, scope shows like 30 narrow pulses. When timebase is widened, only 1-2 pulses remain, where at least 10 pulses should be visible. Will try to capture this.
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I wish someone figured out how to crack the 2000X. Now that would be interesting would it be considered piracy if you enabled features that were always there? Do you sign an EULA when you boot the scope for the first time?
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Please don't forget 3000x if we're talking about cracking!
Come on guys let somebody share the secret!
The hobbists will never pay for the expensive options, just dreams about it...
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Still hanging on the firmwares...
I would like to upgarde my 3014A's fw1.20 to newer one, but don't want to loose the trial licenses.
Does anybody have any suggestions, how to do it?
Someone who has the newer firmware installed would need to test how far in the past the date can be set. As long as you can still move the date back far enough, you can probably keep your trials. Don't get your hopes up though.
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I was able to set it back only 3 days no more.
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Notice the scaling of chan #2. It is scaled "in software". So Agilent is bulshitting us.
The datasheet says that the 1mV scale is a software expansion of the 2mV scale.
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Notice the scaling of chan #2. It is scaled "in software". So Agilent is bulshitting us.
Pretty sure this is mentioned in the spec.
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I was able to set it back only 3 days no more.
Crack it open and pull the 32KHz crystal maybe ;D
Dave.
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I was able to set it back only 3 days no more.
3 days from when - current, firmware release, trial install?
Wonder what happpens if you short the RTC crystal to freeze the clock?
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3 days from the current date.
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Can the clock be set from the usb? WindowsCE devices can auto update the clock from the host computer. Are the features unlocked after a flash update?
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3 days from the current date.
The original fix starting with version 2.0 (or maybe 2.12) was to prevent setting the date further in the past than the firmware compile date. It sounds like you're saying that has changed now? Do you mean that as the days progress you are unable to go back more than three days at a time on any given day?
Or is it the case that you have installed firmware 2.20, which was compiled on 2012-11-08 (approximately three days ago), and you're unable to set the date further back than that? This would be consistent with the original "fixed" behavior.
If the fix has indeed changed, then perhaps the date can be set in the past prior to upgrading the firmware. Has anyone determined whether it is allowed to downgrade the firmware from 2.20/2.12 down to 2.0? Has anyone noted whether a date has survived a firmware upgrade and remained further in the past than would otherwise be allowed?
Can the clock be set from the usb? WindowsCE devices can auto update the clock from the host computer. Are the features unlocked after a flash update?
I have tried setting the date via usb on 2.12 and the same restriction was imposed - setting the date prior to the firmware compile date was rejected.
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Correct, I did the test on the Nov 11th, so 3 days after the date of the update. ( Nov. 8th )
Today I did the test again and I'm able to set it back to Nov 8th. only
David
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Correct, I did the test on the Nov 11th, so 3 days after the date of the update. ( Nov. 8th )
Today I did the test again and I'm able to set it back to Nov 8th. only
David
So I suppose nothing seems to have changed on the trial license front and the outlook is rather bleak for those with models which are new enough to not be hackable anymore yet old enough to not have some of the newer firmware features.
It would still be interesting to know:
1) if the firmware can be downgraded back to a previous version
2) if the date setting (2012-06-01 for example) will survive a firmware upgrade (to version 2.20 for example, which would normally impose a date restriction of 2012-11-08 or later)
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Hi, I got myself an entry model, love it, plus it comes with a decent signal generator, that's good as I am starting my home lab. The only complaint would be of the small memory, but that's kind of expected...
Also got the DVM, and I installed both licensees, but I don't see where you can turn it on... somebody?
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Also got the DVM, and I installed both licensees, but I don't see where you can turn it on... somebody?
Check the analyze menu.
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Correct, I did the test on the Nov 11th, so 3 days after the date of the update. ( Nov. 8th )
Today I did the test again and I'm able to set it back to Nov 8th. only
David
So I suppose nothing seems to have changed on the trial license front and the outlook is rather bleak for those with models which are new enough to not be hackable anymore yet old enough to not have some of the newer firmware features.
It would still be interesting to know:
1) if the firmware can be downgraded back to a previous version
2) if the date setting (2012-06-01 for example) will survive a firmware upgrade (to version 2.20 for example, which would normally impose a date restriction of 2012-11-08 or later)
Let pleeease somebody(who has fw2.00 or 2.12 or 2.20) try to downgrade the firmware! I think many of us dare to upgrade to fw2 because we loose many functionalities if can't be restored the original v1.xx firmware with trial licenses!
Another interesting question: is it possible to ask for and get trial license for the same
machine two times? I mean if the last trial asked a year ago...
This is the real situation when somebody sell his machine to another company, and this company requests for trial to the same serial.
So maybe the agilent input fields needs to be manipulated to another company/name, and and brand new trials comes...
I'll try it but pleease somebody try to downgrade his 2.xx fw to 1.xx. %-B
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Just upgraded my firmware in the 3000X today and yes, it now has the AWG modulation capability like on the 4000X. Nice.
Now, how about burst capability Agilent?, pretty please?. ;D
Dave.
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I was able to set it back only 3 days no more.
Crack it open and pull the 32KHz crystal maybe ;D
Dave.
Sounds easy. Does the machine have external RTC chip or integrated into uC?
Does we have any hi-res pictures from the motherboard?
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Sounds easy. Does the machine have external RTC chip or integrated into uC?
Does we have any hi-res pictures from the motherboard?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/sets/72157626755861230/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/sets/72157626755861230/)
and
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/sets/72157626631250619/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/sets/72157626631250619/)
Dave.
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It's this photo here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/5736595148/#sizes/o/in/set-72157626755861230/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/5736595148/#sizes/o/in/set-72157626755861230/)
An M41T82R RTC chip
And you can see the xtal here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/5736041287/#sizes/l/in/set-72157626755861230/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/5736041287/#sizes/l/in/set-72157626755861230/)
Dave.
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It's this photo here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/5736595148/#sizes/o/in/set-72157626755861230/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/5736595148/#sizes/o/in/set-72157626755861230/)
An M41T82R RTC chip
And you can see the xtal here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/5736041287/#sizes/l/in/set-72157626755861230/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/5736041287/#sizes/l/in/set-72157626755861230/)
Dave.
Great work.
But may not easy as I thought. The RTC has some tricky features like oscillator fail interrupt, frequency test output pin, and watchdog that are used or not by the master device... So simply removing(even pulling) crystal may not works...
Needs another solution.
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But may not easy as I thought. The RTC has some tricky features like oscillator fail interrupt, frequency test output pin, and watchdog that are used or not by the master device... So simply removing(even pulling) crystal may not works...
Needs another solution.
Maybe, but worth a shot first.
If not, an add-on board that replaces the chip and generates the required old date. Or break onto the I2C(?) bus and write your own date.
Dave.
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But may not easy as I thought. The RTC has some tricky features like oscillator fail interrupt, frequency test output pin, and watchdog that are used or not by the master device... So simply removing(even pulling) crystal may not works...
Needs another solution.
Maybe, but worth a shot first.
If not, an add-on board that replaces the chip and generates the required old date. Or break onto the I2C(?) bus and write your own date.
Dave.
Yes it should work. I'll give it a try, but first I need the fw upgrade.
In case of problems a backdoor needed if any above not works: going back to my actual fw1.20 with the existing trials.
Dave, do you have version 1.2? Would you share it?
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But may not easy as I thought. The RTC has some tricky features like oscillator fail interrupt, frequency test output pin, and watchdog that are used or not by the master device... So simply removing(even pulling) crystal may not works...
Needs another solution.
I wonder if it is the case that maybe the only limitation is on setting the RTC, not what the time it is indicating. In which case maybe you could use I2C to set the time.
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But may not easy as I thought. The RTC has some tricky features like oscillator fail interrupt, frequency test output pin, and watchdog that are used or not by the master device... So simply removing(even pulling) crystal may not works...
Needs another solution.
I wonder if it is the case that maybe the only limitation is on setting the RTC, not what the time it is indicating. In which case maybe you could use I2C to set the time.
A simple routine will set back the time to the firmware's release date at every startup...
So doubtless only a custom made RTC helps.
Or a license keygenerator.
Or little firmware modification.
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It would be trivial for Agilent to check licenses against the firmware-date as well as the RTC. So I wouldn't spend a lot of effort hacking the RTC when, even if it works in the current version, it would be trivial for them to cut that route off in the next update.
However given that the keys leaked with the first release, they can only really secure their licensing system by changing the keys, which in turn would mean re-issuing every single license currently in the field.
And that also assumes that there is no way to simply inject code into the scope which just ignores the license check.
If you're actually going to open the scope and muck about with the internals, you'd probably get more mileage out of reading/writing the flash and just patching code.
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It would be trivial for Agilent to check licenses against the firmware-date as well as the RTC. So I wouldn't spend a lot of effort hacking the RTC when, even if it works in the current version, it would be trivial for them to cut that route off in the next update.
However given that the keys leaked with the first release, they can only really secure their licensing system by changing the keys, which in turn would mean re-issuing every single license currently in the field.
And that also assumes that there is no way to simply inject code into the scope which just ignores the license check.
If you're actually going to open the scope and muck about with the internals, you'd probably get more mileage out of reading/writing the flash and just patching code.
Where do those keys leaked?
I think there is no need to read/write the flash directly. Only the base date needs to be modified in the .bin files somewhere that sets the "minimal" date set. Isn't it?
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Where do those keys leaked?
I think there is no need to read/write the flash directly. Only the base date needs to be modified in the .bin files somewhere that sets the "minimal" date set. Isn't it?
The keys were in the original firmware update, they left them in by mistake. I don't know if anyone openly posted them, but how/where to find them was widely discussed (if you want a more specific answer, don't look at me - I think it's actually in an earlier post in this thread).
I'm not sure if it's possible to modify a file before updating the scope, or to write to the scope's filesystem. I'd imagine they might at least have check-summed / signed the update package, in which case you'd be out of luck. Worst case you might brick the scope, which is why I'm not going to be trying it on mine any time soon.
However if you *could* modify the files on the device, either by changing the update package or writing to the flash, it would be easier to just take out the license check than to piss about with dates and trial licenses.
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The answer about keys are in this topic Reply #536.
So what if we have the keys? We put the keys, the ser.no. the required option, and the expirity date into a black box, and it will tell the lic.nr. Uhhh... that is not the way... this is out of my boundaries...
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The answer about keys are in this topic Reply #536.
So what if we have the keys? We put the keys, the ser.no. the required option, and the expirity date into a black box, and it will tell the lic.nr. Uhhh... that is not the way... this is out of my boundaries...
The 'black box' is pretty much fully documented back in post #177.
But yeah, no-one seems terribly inclined to actually fully implement and post a working solution. I don't blame them - I wouldn't.
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This scope came with v1.x firmware installed and allowed to sign your own license files using the leaked key
In v2.x Agilent.Cdf.Api.dll has been updated and has some interesting strings:
SecureDataTool_DTDLeaked
SecureDataTool_DTD2
So new scope's probably use a different keyset
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Unfortunately I have the displeasure of reporting that our friends at Agilent have indeed updated the rsa keys since the original private key was leaked. Newer versions of the firmware (2.0 and up, I believe) have a total of three keys (the leaked one plus two new ones) and the key which is used is determined by the serial number of the scope. So it would seem that those who were lucky enough to get one of the first models produced will be able to use the leaked key indefinitely, while anyone with a later model is out of luck unless it is possible to change the serial number of the scope without breaking anything else.
I'm not sure how old a scope has to be to use the old key. Mine came with firmware 2.00 and it uses one of the new keys. I haven't looked in to changing the serial number, but this seems worthy of some investigation.
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This scope came with v1.x firmware installed and allowed to sign your own license files using the leaked key
In v2.x Agilent.Cdf.Api.dll has been updated and has some interesting strings:
SecureDataTool_DTDLeaked
SecureDataTool_DTD2
So new scope's probably use a different keyset
It occurred to me that they might do that, but I hadn't realised they had rolled it out already.
In some ways I'm glad they have. If it was wide open I could see them being reluctant to add new options like the serial decode on the 2k series.
I'm also glad I bought one of the original models.
I guess there's a chance that they might only offer some new features on sufficiently new scopes, but that could be confusing for buyers who had no idea that their serial number would be important...
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Summarizing the above: is it possible to use trials forever on fw2.0 and above or not?
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Summarizing the above: is it possible to use trials forever on fw2.0 and above or not?
Yes, as long as your trials expire on a date after the compile date of the firmware version you have installed.
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Summarizing the above: is it possible to use trials forever on fw2.0 and above or not?
Yes, as long as your trials expire on a date after the compile date of the firmware version you have installed.
Only once, or many times? I mean if suddenly trials removed by the machine because the clock forgot to set back, can they be reinstalled again, after set back the date?
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Let we complete the 3000 firmware line.
Here are the fw1.10, 2.12, 2.20: http://s3.toldacuccot.hu/dl.php?sid=7f8145a7a2dbaa324d84d44e5d01216a&file=1.10_2.12_2.20.7z (http://s3.toldacuccot.hu/dl.php?sid=7f8145a7a2dbaa324d84d44e5d01216a&file=1.10_2.12_2.20.7z)
Please share the other ones.
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For those interested:
Just tried on mine, even if your clock was set to the compile date of the previous FW (Apr 18th) after updating it will force you to the new date.
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For those interested:
Just tried on mine, even if your clock was set to the compile date of the previous FW (Apr 18th) after updating it will force you to the new date.
Thanks. You updated from 2.12 to 2.20? Some of us are also interested to know if downgrading is prevented. Can you see whether it will let you install 2.12 again?
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Nop, it will unpack the .cab but then declare that there's something wrong with it.
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Nop, it will unpack the .cab but then declare that there's something wrong with it.
Well that sucks a lot. Thanks for checking. Can you confirm that you upgraded from 2.12 to 2.20, and then tried and failed to downgrade to 2.12?
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The help menu says 2.20 and I've been playing with the modulation all morning.
Curiously the expired trial Flexray license disappeared from the list.
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So no way to go back to 1.xx from 2.xx. That's not a good news... :-\
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One more: Is there a way to modify the serial nr. or model nr.?
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This scope came with v1.x firmware installed and allowed to sign your own license files using the leaked key
In v2.x Agilent.Cdf.Api.dll has been updated and has some interesting strings:
SecureDataTool_DTDLeaked
SecureDataTool_DTD2
So new scope's probably use a different keyset
I just had a look and I see
SecureDataTool_DTDLeaked, PublicKey=002400000480000094000000060200000024000052534131000400000100010055EC267A0181512A09EB5A7AE847BDD5ED95332840E04594BC4F779A8EF8F2C974A3EAC4A782D0C71383CEAD1845C0A2D1251DB9180F83F8CB1C6D27E5C5FD6E0272288CC9A036B9C55DE614A201C6D9EBEE088E38965AFF890295647CA4C15A408BBC1CC55873A4BDA91471EA3FC41D1947ADA623C1241AD51F573F7765AED7
SecureDataTool_DTD2, PublicKey=002400000480000094000000060200000024000052534131000400000100010055EC267A0181512A09EB5A7AE847BDD5ED95332840E04594BC4F779A8EF8F2C974A3EAC4A782D0C71383CEAD1845C0A2D1251DB9180F83F8CB1C6D27E5C5FD6E0272288CC9A036B9C55DE614A201C6D9EBEE088E38965AFF890295647CA4C15A408BBC1CC55873A4BDA91471EA3FC41D1947ADA623C1241AD51F573F7765AED7
But. ... they're the same.
PS: These are public keys so there isn't any legal implication about posting them.
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This scope came with v1.x firmware installed and allowed to sign your own license files using the leaked key
In v2.x Agilent.Cdf.Api.dll has been updated and has some interesting strings:
SecureDataTool_DTDLeaked
SecureDataTool_DTD2
So new scope's probably use a different keyset
I just had a look and I see
SecureDataTool_DTDLeaked, PublicKey=002400000480000094000000060200000024000052534131000400000100010055EC267A0181512A09EB5A7AE847BDD5ED95332840E04594BC4F779A8EF8F2C974A3EAC4A782D0C71383CEAD1845C0A2D1251DB9180F83F8CB1C6D27E5C5FD6E0272288CC9A036B9C55DE614A201C6D9EBEE088E38965AFF890295647CA4C15A408BBC1CC55873A4BDA91471EA3FC41D1947ADA623C1241AD51F573F7765AED7
SecureDataTool_DTD2, PublicKey=002400000480000094000000060200000024000052534131000400000100010055EC267A0181512A09EB5A7AE847BDD5ED95332840E04594BC4F779A8EF8F2C974A3EAC4A782D0C71383CEAD1845C0A2D1251DB9180F83F8CB1C6D27E5C5FD6E0272288CC9A036B9C55DE614A201C6D9EBEE088E38965AFF890295647CA4C15A408BBC1CC55873A4BDA91471EA3FC41D1947ADA623C1241AD51F573F7765AED7
But. ... they're the same.
PS: These are public keys so there isn't any legal implication about posting them.
That key is still in the firmware, but it's only used if the serial number is old enough. See post #590 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/new-agilent-scopes/msg163619/#msg163619)
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Yes I know, but both those keys are from the newer firmware. For some reason the same key is present twice under 2 different names.
The _DTDLeaked is an obvious name for the old one, but I would have expected the _DTD2 to be the newer keys used for new scope, but it's obviously not because it's the _same_ public key ...
So under what name is the newer key stored in the fw ?
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Yes I know, but both those keys are from the newer firmware. For some reason the same key is present twice under 2 different names.
The _DTDLeaked is an obvious name for the old one, but I would have expected the _DTD2 to be the newer keys used for new scope, but it's obviously not because it's the _same_ public key ...
So under what name is the newer key stored in the fw ?
I don't think I ran across any of the names you're talking about. As I recall, there was basically some code that did something like:
RSAParameters result;
int whichKey = someMethod(secureDataStorage->getSerialNumber());
if(whichKey == 0)
result.modulus = "...";
else if(whichKey == 1)
result.modulus = "...";
else if(whichKey == 2)
result.modulus = "...";
return result;
Actually now that I think about it, it may have been determined by the divisionId and not the serial number. I stopped looking in to it after seeing the two extra keys so I probably shouldn't try to be too specific about the exact details. Either way, it was determined by something located in secureStorage, so if that could be accessed and modified then it would appear to be possible to get a new scope to use the original key again.
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I think the "PublicKey=00240..." is information about the certificate used to sign the executables, not the license file.
Actually now that I think about it, it may have been determined by the divisionId and not the serial number.
Its determined by the last part of the InstrumentID, this is something like "modelnumer serialnumber date"
This is set when initializing the scope using the SecureDataTool.
Anyone knows what the securestorage is or where its located?
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Let we complete the 3000 firmware line.
Here are the fw1.10, 2.12, 2.20: http://s3.toldacuccot.hu/dl.php?sid=7f8145a7a2dbaa324d84d44e5d01216a&file=1.10_2.12_2.20.7z (http://s3.toldacuccot.hu/dl.php?sid=7f8145a7a2dbaa324d84d44e5d01216a&file=1.10_2.12_2.20.7z)
Please share the other ones.
Nobody to share the other versions? :-[
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Its determined by the last part of the InstrumentID, this is something like "modelnumer serialnumber date"
This is set when initializing the scope using the SecureDataTool.
Ah yes. That sounds right. As I recall, they just added a "0" "1" or "2" on to the end of the id string to select one of the keys. There was a separate check for an id without the extra character on the end which caused it to default to the original key.
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I wonder if the unfortunately leaked secure data tool could be used on a newer scope to reset/change the keys and/or serial number.
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I wonder if the unfortunately leaked secure data tool could be used on a newer scope to reset/change the keys and/or serial number.
I wondered that as well since that does of course seem to be its intended purpose. I had assumed initially that the tool was a standard windows program that accessed the scope via usb from a host computer, but it actually seems to be a wince binary meant to run on the scope itself. Unfortunately I don't know a lot about windows, much less wince, so I haven't really been able to take a serious look at this possibility.
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Still you have to set the date back to 2011 before you re-initialize the scope.
So
1) Find a way to downgrade the scope to one of the v1.x firmware, maybe using the same sort of trick done by the Rigol's
2) Set the date back as far as you can with the firmware
3) Include the securedata tool in the firmware cab and modify the recipe.xml to clear the secure storage and initialize it with your model/serial
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How does the scope actually authenticate the update package? i.e. how does it know that it's valid, and/or that the version is newer?
I've not looked in detail, but it seems that it's just cab file with a script in it that runs things on the scope to update stuff. Obviously somewhere it's doing a bit more than that, and if you can't put a previous version on there's a check going on, but what is it actually checking, and how?
I'd expect at least a version number and some kind of signature, but I couldn't see where they are.
I've no need of this personally, so I'm not really inclined to poke around too much (plus, I have work to do!), but these sorts of things make me curious.
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Can somebody confirm that on 3000series fw2.xx trials can be used forever?
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Can somebody confirm that on 3000series fw2.xx trials can be used forever?
Now where did you get that idea from?
Oh yeah, I tried out the trial for the Spectrum Visualizer for the scope.
http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pd-2118936-pn-64997A/agilent-spectrum-visualizer-asv-software?cc=US&lc=eng (http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pd-2118936-pn-64997A/agilent-spectrum-visualizer-asv-software?cc=US&lc=eng)
It's... pretty crap (for the 500USD they ask for it), the update rate is abysmal and the FFT resolution is poor too even though the scope is capable of much finer resolution. Even though the whole point is so you can do FFT waterfall the low refresh rate renders it unusable.
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Guys, can someone explain me one thing, for example DSOX3012A.
It's 2 channel puppy but on the picture I can see it has all 4 BNC connectors:
http://www.home.agilent.com/ru/pd-1947496-pn-DSOX3012A/oscilloscope-100-mhz-2-channels?nid=-33573.970763&cc=RU&lc=rus (http://www.home.agilent.com/ru/pd-1947496-pn-DSOX3012A/oscilloscope-100-mhz-2-channels?nid=-33573.970763&cc=RU&lc=rus)
Is it so? DSOX3012A will have 4 channels but only 2 will work?
Can it be upgraded to DSOX3014A just with license purchase?
Or every DSOX3012A pictures are not true?
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That's a picture of the 4-channel version.
Here's what the 2 channel version looks like:
(http://www.testbuyer.com/images/95/67895.jpg)
Have a look on Google images
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Ok, I see, Agilent site fool me ::)
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I don't think there is alternate trigger.
So what? When there is no alternate trigger on Agilent DSOX2000, is it possible to get a stable view of two signals with a bit different frequency? (Yes, you can always use the RUN/STOP button. :-\)
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I've only ever seen alt trigger on a few cheaper scopes - not really sure why you'd want it - I suppose there might be some rare situations where you need to see the shape of 2 unrelated signals simultaneously.
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I saw the MSOX2014A on a trade fair www.amper.cz (http://www.amper.cz), so I took a few screenshots.
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New firmware available:
2000 (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/software.jspx?ckey=2014479&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-33575.970741&id=2014479)
3000 (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/software.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2014548&nid=-33563.970734.02&id=2014548)
The 2000 got some serious love:
• SW option DSOX2MEMUP has been added to allow all channels up to 1 Megabyte of MegaZoom acquisition memory.
• The standard memory has been upgraded to 100 Kilobytes of MegaZoom acquisition memory per channel.
• SW option DSOX2EMBD has been added to support hardware accelerated I2C and SPI serial triggering and analysis, including decode, lister, and search capabilities.
• SW option DSOX2AUTO has been added to support hardware accelerated CAN and LIN serial triggering and analysis, including decode, lister, and search capabilities.
• SW option DSOX2COMP has been added to support hardware accelerated RS232/UART serial triggering and analysis, including decode, lister, and search capabilities.
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A heads up for people that have their scope refusing the .cab, try a secure erase. It's under save/recall.
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https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/my-new-toy-%29-agilent-dsox2002a-sex-on-a-stick (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/my-new-toy-%29-agilent-dsox2002a-sex-on-a-stick)!/30/
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I've only ever seen alt trigger on a few cheaper scopes - not really sure why you'd want it - I suppose there might be some rare situations where you need to see the shape of 2 unrelated signals simultaneously.
Are you kidding?
Simplest possible example from yesterday. I want compare two separate signal generator waveforms. Both generators have its own clock. (they are not sync with each other but I want look and compare signal shapes conformity with several different settings. Without ALT trig I waste lot of time and time is money.)
Gen 1 to CH1 and Gen 2 to CH2 and compare wafeforms shape, scope to ALT mode. Set CH1 and 2 triggers and go...
How you do it without ALT trig. And this was just as simplest possible example.
ALT trig have been normal feature in oscilloscopes as long as I remember.
And this is not enough, there is also ALT trig with real dual timebase. (in history and today but these are not usual in entry level cheap scopes)
In analog scopes specially it is very normal feature in all professional analog scopes (I do not remember any scope what do not have it).
And even more, one Tektronix have real dual beam (not only dual trace) expensive model what have real dual independent beam in same CRT.
There is many situations where is useul to look two signals what are not sychronized and not only dual trace...
I think if there is not ALT mode it is just exeption.
If there is ALT trig with dual timebase this is littlebit more rare but also nice useful feature in many lab work.
But of course I have only around 40 years experience with lab work and field diagnose in industrial world where need repair and adjust things and becouse this it is possible that I do not know enough for claim that ALT trig is is in class "not useful"
But also, I have seen sometimes peoples have done bad mistakes with ALT trig.
My Tektronix 7000 have it and more, also Tek 465 have it, Tek 2200 serias have it and Tek2400 serias have it. Do you think they do this feature just for nothing. If professionals do not need it they really do not make it.
It is real shame if this Agilent model do not have it.
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I've only ever seen alt trigger on a few cheaper scopes - not really sure why you'd want it - I suppose there might be some rare situations where you need to see the shape of 2 unrelated signals simultaneously.
Are you kidding?
Simplest possible example from yesterday. I want compare two separate signal generator waveforms. Both generators have its own clock. (they are not sync with each other but I want look signal shapes with several different settings. Without ALT trig I waste lot of time and time is money.)
Gen 1 to CH1 and Gen 2 to CH2 and compare wafeforms shape, scope to ALT mode. Set CH1 and 2 triggers and go...
How you do it without ALT trig. And this was just as simplest possible example.
I suppose the approach without alternative trigger would be to trigger on one, save it as a reference waveform and then trigger on the other.
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I've only ever seen alt trigger on a few cheaper scopes - not really sure why you'd want it - I suppose there might be some rare situations where you need to see the shape of 2 unrelated signals simultaneously.
Are you kidding?
Simplest possible example from yesterday. I want compare two separate signal generator waveforms. Both generators have its own clock. (they are not sync with each other but I want look signal shapes with several different settings. Without ALT trig I waste lot of time and time is money.)
Gen 1 to CH1 and Gen 2 to CH2 and compare wafeforms shape, scope to ALT mode. Set CH1 and 2 triggers and go...
How you do it without ALT trig. And this was just as simplest possible example.
I suppose the approach without alternative trigger would be to trigger on one, save it as a reference waveform and then trigger on the other.
Of course this simplified example can do many ways. This was not question. But other this is if it is so handy. Of course I can even take picture and compare these. And if I'm pianist I can push 50 button in second. If Do just one measurement it is not so big problem but if need quickly look (in this tiny example) many or some more... you can do it, of course but I'm so lazy that I want tools what are handy.
But then if we take littelbit different need.. say example you have system where is some PWM signal but some reason you want watc simultaneously example just 2 or more of them (more scope channels) how they change as you adjust something in system and there is some system relationship between them. Signals are not sync each others and timing is also very different... say other is 1.2MHz and other is 25kHz.. It is just nice if you can use dual timebase separatery trihgged ALT mode. All these simultaneously in realtime under your eyes and need use only one oscilloscope. Of course also this is possible to do many ways. All can.
Of course, for many peoplses these functions are useless. There is different needs.
But in my opinion ALT trig is basic function and it is shame if this level of oscilloscope do not have it.
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I don't disagree that it would be nice to have, especially with different timebases allowed but it is added complexity and hence cost so on low end scopes I guess Agilent (and others) decided against it.
I see that Tektronix has a patent on it:
http://www.google.com/patents/US6473701 (http://www.google.com/patents/US6473701)
perhaps this is another reason why other manufacturers find it simpler not to include it. Though the low end Rigol and Owon seem to have it as an option.
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My Tektronix 7000 have it and more, also Tek 465 have it, Tek 2200 serias have it and Tek2400 serias have it. Do you think they do this feature just for nothing. If professionals do not need it they really do not make it.
OK, but they are older analog scopes where you probably have no Single pushbutton.
It is real shame if this Agilent model do not have it.
Yes, it is. :-- But I am afraid that most middle class scopes don't have alt Trigger. I mean Rigol DS2000, Agilent DSOX2000 or DSOX3000, Tek DPO2000. Only GW Instek GDS-2000A has the alt trigger. Also some Owons, Siglents and even Rigol DS1000 series.
But even without alt trigger you can always push Run/Stop to see both waveforms with different frequency. :-/O
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I don't disagree that it would be nice to have, especially with different timebases allowed but it is added complexity and hence cost so on low end scopes I guess Agilent (and others) decided against it.
I see that Tektronix has a patent on it:
http://www.google.com/patents/US6473701 (http://www.google.com/patents/US6473701)
perhaps this is another reason why other manufacturers find it simpler not to include it. Though the low end Rigol and Owon seem to have it as an option.
Owon SDS serie have ALT trig mode (default, not option)
Separate trigger settings.
Separate trig freq counters.
Not dual timebase.
All memory (1k+1k to max 10M+10M)can use for ALT single timebase mode.
Siglent SDS1000(L) serie have ALT trig dualtimebase mode. (default, not option)
Separate trigger settings.
No trig freq counters in this mode.
Also in ALT mode with dual timebase: Tracking cursors can split between channels. Math can do between ALT trigged channels or FFT.
Dual timebase.
Long memory can not use in ALT dualtimebase mode. (fixed 20k+20k)
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But even without alt trigger you can always push Run/Stop to see both waveforms with different frequency. :-/O
Yes and if looking example risetimes. After stop then try find where is this other channel rising edge.
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ALT trig have been normal feature in oscilloscopes as long as I remember.
And this is not enough, there is also ALT trig with real dual timebase. (in history and today but these are not usual in entry level cheap scopes)
In analog scopes specially it is very normal feature in all professional analog scopes (I do not remember any scope what do not have it).
Yes, it has been a standard feature on analog scopes for decades - and very handy in certain circumstances - even though I don't use it that much.
It is real shame if this Agilent model do not have it.
Well, as Hydrawerk noted, the Rigol UltraVision scopes don't have it, the Agilent InfiniiVision X series don't, the R&S RTO series (1M wfrm/s) don't, etc. - so there seems to be a trend of these high waveform capture rate DSOs not having Alternate mode - which makes me think it's connected to maintaining the wfrm/s speed (although GW-Instek seems to have worked out some way to use it on their new GDS-2000A series). I'd love to see tests done on the wfrm/s speed of the Instek when Alternate mode is used.
Edit: Also, I believe all of these fast waveform capture scopes are using digital triggering (http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/dl_downloads/dl_application/00aps_undefined/Benefits_of_RTO_digital_trigger_system_2.pdf) now - so perhaps the use of digital triggering complicates the implementation of Alternate mode.
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Simplest possible example from yesterday. I want compare two separate signal generator waveforms. Both generators have its own clock. (they are not sync with each other but I want look signal shapes with several different settings. Without ALT trig I waste lot of time and time is money.)
Gen 1 to CH1 and Gen 2 to CH2 and compare wafeforms shape, scope to ALT mode. Set CH1 and 2 triggers and go...
How you do it without ALT trig?
Of course this simplified example can do many ways. This was not question. But other this is if it is so handy. Of course I can even take picture and compare these. And if I'm pianist I can push 50 button in second. If Do just one measurement it is not so big problem but if need quickly look (in this tiny example) many or some more... you can do it, of course but I'm so lazy that I want tools what are handy.
But then if we take littelbit different need.. say example you have system where is some PWM signal but some reason you want watc simultaneously example just 2 or more of them (more scope channels) how they change as you adjust something in system and there is some system relationship between them. Signals are not sync each others and timing is also very different... say other is 1.2MHz and other is 25kHz.
Well, while the Rigol doesn't have the ALT trigger mode, it has many other complex triggers - one of which is called Delay - but it really could be called Dual. It can use both CH1 and CH2 as the trigger source - each on it's own edge, with < / > / <> / >< delay parameters with a large time range. So it's quite easy to set up the scope to display stable waveforms with un-synced signals, as in the attached image; both waveforms were perfectly stable:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-agilent-scopes/?action=dlattach;attach=44900)
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It looks good.
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Yes, it looks good version of digital oscilloscope "ALT" by different name and there can select trigger level and time position for each channels.
With this can do many things.
I can not see any signs about dual timebase in pictures.
Dual timebase means that both channels have also separate horizontal speed.
(but in practice, very rare really needed (in ALT mode or delay mode how they name it) but nice to have
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Yes, it looks good version of digital oscilloscope "ALT" by different name and there can select trigger level and time position for each channels.
With this can do many things.
It's not as versatile or easy to use as a powerful ALT implementation - you can only use edge-triggering on each channel (as opposed to different trigger types for each channel) - but it's better than nothing when trying to look at two un-synced waveforms.
I can not see any signs about dual timebase in pictures.
Definitely NOT dual timebase unfortunately.
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It's not as versatile or easy to use as a powerful ALT implementation - you can only use edge-triggering on each channel (as opposed to different trigger types for each channel) - but it's better than nothing when trying to look at two un-synced waveforms.
Yes, 1-0 better than nothing.
Without this un-sync signals just game over exept if can accep play run/stop game in some cases where it may give some kind of solution for random rare needs. Perhaps also most of users never need? But yes I remember one "show". (it was mistake).
People check freq reference using analog oscilloscope. Both channels show 10MHz references outputs. After some short time oscilloscope show nice sinewaves and guy tell me they are exactly. Yes I look also some seconds his scope screen and yes no any detectable shift. Show was nearly end. But in my head red light go on... wait a minute.. they are normal well adjusted high class OCXO's. But red light in my head becouse it was too stable.... may I look agen.
Then I ask how you have adjusted these...
"no no-... I just only connect these for check and they looks very very good so I did not yet adjust. "
Scope was still on. oh... no any drift and there is now long time... minutes.
ALT !! ... your oscilloscope is in ALT mode!
turn to CHOP... wau... other channel signal go so fast that can not see waveform at all.
Perhaps tens of Hz difference.
"What is it... why? Normally I do not touch this switch"
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GW Instek scopes are special. They even have the unique split window function. It is like alt trigger mode. Nevertheless, this scope GDS-3000 might not be so popular.
GW Instek GDS-3000 Split Window Function (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw2gUK6_2ro#ws)
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I've only ever seen alt trigger on a few cheaper scopes - not really sure why you'd want it - I suppose there might be some rare situations where you need to see the shape of 2 unrelated signals simultaneously.
The Agilent 3000X and 7000B have alternate trigger, it's very useful for simultaneously displaying edge transitions of a switching waveform. Great for looking at pre and post ringing in switched-mode and PWM applications, and you can immediately see any rise and fall time asymmetry. Saves hopping from the rising edge to the falling edge then back again every time you change some circuit parameter.
I also use it as a debugging tool in microcontroller applications, if you want the scope to trigger of some software event, toggle a spare pin at every event and alternate trigger off that. It's quicker to toggle or xor in software than to keep a pin high for several microseconds and take it low again, and is less likely to upset any time-critical code.
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I've only ever seen alt trigger on a few cheaper scopes - not really sure why you'd want it - I suppose there might be some rare situations where you need to see the shape of 2 unrelated signals simultaneously.
The Agilent 3000X and 7000B have alternate trigger, it's very useful for simultaneously displaying edge transitions of a switching waveform. Great for looking at pre and post ringing in switched-mode and PWM applications, and you can immediately see any rise and fall time asymmetry. Saves hopping from the rising edge to the falling edge then back again every time you change some circuit parameter.
I also use it as a debugging tool in microcontroller applications, if you want the scope to trigger of some software event, toggle a spare pin at every event and alternate trigger off that. It's quicker to toggle or xor in software than to keep a pin high for several microseconds and take it low again, and is less likely to upset any time-critical code.
I think you are confusing alternate edge triggering with alternate channel triggering.
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I think you are confusing alternate edge triggering with alternate channel triggering.
Aha! I didn't realise you and everyone else were talking about alternate channel triggering because I didn't read the thread properly. You're right, I can't see much use for that either.
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Aha! I didn't realise you and everyone else were talking about alternate channel triggering because I didn't read the thread properly. You're right, I can't see much use for that either.
Well, as discussed in the thread, there's an obvious use for it - which is why it's been a standard feature on analog scopes (and many digital ones) for decades. It's not something you need often, but when you need to look at un-synced signals, there is only that (or a trigger which is keyed to both channels).
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Well, as discussed in the thread, there's an obvious use for it - which is why it's been a standard feature on analog scopes (and many digital ones) for decades.
And because it is trivially easy to implement on analog scopes that need to have alternate sweeping anyway.
On digital scopes it is more complicated and the fancier the digital scope is the more complicated it gets.
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Please what's inside the MSO cable? Is there some electronics, maybe ADCs? Or only wires?
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Please what's inside the MSO cable? Is there some electronics, maybe ADCs? Or only wires?
In same kind of cable and old HP16500B analyzator there was only cable and of course something for impedance but no active components. It (HP system) was just becouse this, advertised with many nice words by HP.
My quess is... only matched transfer lines.
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And then for "Rufus" previous msg.
Some kind of ALT is not very difficult. (separate timebase and full separate trig settings for both Channels.
Of course it is slow and it really capture channels ALTernatively independent of timebase. So 2.5ns/div in other channel and 50ms/div in other channels is just pain... but of course always in lab need cup of coffee..
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And then for "Rufus" previous msg.
Some kind of ALT is not very difficult. (separate timebase and full separate trig settings for both Channels.
That is difficult, menus or something to control two trigger settings, configuration of the hardware to capture alternately in two (or 3/4?) channels. Then when you scroll through or zoom into the deep capture memory - how? controls to scroll/zoom traces independently? what about cursor and measurement functions between traces? Disable them because the traces have no time relationship? There is a whole lot of extra crap required just to support alt trigger, the smarter the scope the more crap there is.
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And then for "Rufus" previous msg.
Some kind of ALT is not very difficult. (separate timebase and full separate trig settings for both Channels.
That is difficult, menus or something to control two trigger settings, configuration of the hardware to capture alternately in two (or 3/4?) channels. Then when you scroll through or zoom into the deep capture memory - how? controls to scroll/zoom traces independently? what about cursor and measurement functions between traces? Disable them because the traces have no time relationship? There is a whole lot of extra crap required just to support alt trigger, the smarter the scope the more crap there is.
The trigger circuit will typically be a DAC and a comparator. As the trigger signals are typically also used for protocol decode and frequency counter, chances are there will usually be a DAC per channel, and they multiplex the comparator output to select channel, so ALT trig would just require the trigger mux to change on alternate sweeps. Things get more messy if you want different timebase settings though, both in terms of hardware/firmware, and user interface.
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The trigger circuit will typically be a DAC and a comparator. As the trigger signals are typically also used for protocol decode and frequency counter, chances are there will usually be a DAC per channel, and they multiplex the comparator output to select channel, so ALT trig would just require the trigger mux to change on alternate sweeps. Things get more messy if you want different timebase settings though, both in terms of hardware/firmware, and user interface.
As I mentioned before, the new DSOs with fast wfrm/s update rates all seem to be using digital triggers. This document from Rohde & Schwarz (http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/dl_downloads/dl_application/00aps_undefined/Benefits_of_RTO_digital_trigger_system_2.pdf) gives a good description of a DSO with digital vs. analog trigger - and why they're more suitable for high-speed waveform acquisition. And I still suspect that this is, at least one of, the reason(s) that ALT triggers are becoming less common on more expensive DSOs.
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Guys, can anybody check DSOX3WAVEGEN square wave minimum rise/fall time and overshoot?
Square wave screenshots will be fine :-)
I just want to understand can it be as good as HP 33120A or I have to get real 33120A or something like that :-)
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See datasheets of both instruments...
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I can't find datasheet for DSOX3WAVEGEN that's why I ask someone to check square wave in scope.
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Here you go. The maximum square wave frequency is 10MHz. Rise time is about 19ns, so it's not very square at this frequency. This was with 50 Ohm coax and the input set to 50 Ohms, however it looks the same without the termination.
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I can't find datasheet for DSOX3WAVEGEN that's why I ask someone to check square wave in scope.
Why not? It's a part of the DSOX3000 datasheet . http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-6619EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-6619EN.pdf) Look at page 23.
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HP 33120A has only 40Ms/sec. It's an obsolete product... I would not buy it. http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5968-0125EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5968-0125EN.pdf)
On the other hand, it has a bigger output level 20V peak peak, it's better than DSOX3000 at this.
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The maximum square wave frequency is 10MHz. Rise time is about 19ns, so it's not very square at this frequency.
Thanks!!! Can you make 100kHz square wave 2.8Vp-p screenshot? :)
HP 33120A has only 40Ms/sec. It's an obsolete product... I would not buy it.
On the other hand, it has a bigger output level 20V peak peak, it's better than DSOX3000 at this.
HP 33120A was just for example. I think about Philips PM 5193 :P
http://www.ko4bb.com/Manuals/Philips/Philips_PM5193_Operation_Manual.pdf (http://www.ko4bb.com/Manuals/Philips/Philips_PM5193_Operation_Manual.pdf)
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100kHz as requested, 2.5Vpk-pk since that's the most it will do into a 50 Ohm load.
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Here is my Agilent 33522A with 100kHz square wave 2.8Vp-p at 50ohm and the Agilent MSOX3024A with input at 50ohm
(http://www.tooms.dk/download/eevblogforum/agilent33522arisefall1.jpg)
(http://www.tooms.dk/download/eevblogforum/agilent33522arisefall2.jpg)
/Tooms
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Here is Agilent 33522A with 10MHz square wave 2.8Vp-p at 50ohm and the Agilent MSOX3024A with input at 50ohm
(http://www.tooms.dk/download/eevblogforum/agilent33522arisefall3.jpg)
Here is Agilent 33522A with 20MHz square wave 2.8Vp-p at 50ohm and the Agilent MSOX3024A with input at 50ohm
(http://www.tooms.dk/download/eevblogforum/agilent33522arisefall4.jpg)
Here is Agilent 33522A with 30MHz square wave 2.8Vp-p at 50ohm and the Agilent MSOX3024A with input at 50ohm
(http://www.tooms.dk/download/eevblogforum/agilent33522arisefall5.jpg)
/Tooms
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100kHz as requested, 2.5Vpk-pk since that's the most it will do into a 50 Ohm load.
Looks fine, thanks :)
Here is my Agilent 33522A with 100kHz square wave 2.8Vp-p at 50ohm and the Agilent MSOX3024A with input at 50ohm
Wow, looks great, rise/fall time is impressive, but 33522A too expensive toy.
I believe DSOX3WAVEGEN will be enough for my purposes :)
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I got my 33522A from here
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Agilent-33522A-Function-Arbitrary-Waveform-Generator-30-MHz-/171030647669?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d2389375 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Agilent-33522A-Function-Arbitrary-Waveform-Generator-30-MHz-/171030647669?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d2389375)
/Tooms
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New firmware available:
2000 (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/software.jspx?ckey=2014479&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-33575.970741&id=2014479)
3000 (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/software.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2014548&nid=-33563.970734.02&id=2014548)
The 2000 got some serious love:
• SW option DSOX2MEMUP has been added to allow all channels up to 1 Megabyte of MegaZoom acquisition memory.
• The standard memory has been upgraded to 100 Kilobytes of MegaZoom acquisition memory per channel.
• SW option DSOX2EMBD has been added to support hardware accelerated I2C and SPI serial triggering and analysis, including decode, lister, and search capabilities.
• SW option DSOX2AUTO has been added to support hardware accelerated CAN and LIN serial triggering and analysis, including decode, lister, and search capabilities.
• SW option DSOX2COMP has been added to support hardware accelerated RS232/UART serial triggering and analysis, including decode, lister, and search capabilities.
I was in your exact scenario, and I finally went with the two channel 2000. Don't do it. You think you only need two channels, but once you start really getting into your microcontroller projects, you'll start saying, "damn, I wish I had a couple more channels!". I sold that scope and now I have a four channel 3000. Two more channels and the extra memory depth is totally worth it for me. There have been times already that I wish I had even more memory depth than what the 3000 has. The serial decode options on the 3000 are also nice.
Hi ToBeFrank,
I saw a couple of your posts that I merged together in the quote above.
Given your experience with the Agilents, I have some questions for you. Thx
EEVblog #143 - Agilent 2000 X Series Infiniivision Oscilloscope Review (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S62G0F4B1q0#ws)
In the EEV video on the 2024A at about 20:30 I thought Dave said there is no serial decode capability, but at about 30:30 Dave seems to show serial decoding. (No doubt, I'm confused :)) And in your list of firmware updates for the 2000 it looks like some good serial updates were included - maybe they are only available if you have the DSOX2EMBD option?
Also, according Agilent's literature serial search isn't available - is that correct? (It looks like some level of serial review is available but maybe not "search"?)
Moving onto your post about the 2000 vs. the 3000, any chance you can update us on what are the top several reasons you are glad you made the move from the 2000 to the 3000 ? I'm especially interested in anything related to managing the digital signals (serial and parallel) and anything that has to do with simulataneously displaying and time correlating the analog and digital signals. Also, any info on the relative search and navigate features on the 2000 and 3000 would be great to understand.
One last question, specifically on I2C and SPI in case you have been working with these - what is the feasiblity of using the DSOX2EMBD with just 4 analog channels (vs. using the 8 channel LA probe)? If this is practical, theoretically a user could start with DSOX2024A and the DSOX2EMBD and then add the MSO (8 channel LA) later if it's needed. (Related to this, have you found any difference between the DSOX2EMBD and the DSOX3EMBD?)
Thanks! EF
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Hi !
After a long research, I found a way to try the optional features on the 2000x/3000x for more than 30 days. :) Possibly also on the 4000x.
Drop me a PM if you're interested.
Looks good, but has somebody tried this?
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Hi !
After a long research, I found a way to try the optional features on the 2000x/3000x for more than 30 days. :) Possibly also on the 4000x.
Drop me a PM if you're interested.
HW or SW mod?
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Send a message to djvinc. It's a firmware modification.
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Hi there, I just took the chance and bought a used MSO2024A with WaveGen, VGA and Segmented Mem option for USD 2000. It was barely used as the department closed just 5 month after they bought it. Did I get ripped off?
Also was there a firmware-upgrade to support arbitrary waveforms on the X2000 series? I recall Dave mentioning something in a video.
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Also was there a firmware-upgrade to support arbitrary waveforms on the X2000 series?
No, it was for the X3000 series.
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Hi there, I just took the chance and bought a used MSO2022A with WaveGen, VGA and Segmented Mem option for USD 2000 from my university. It was barely used as the department closed just 5 month after they bought it. Did I get ripped off?
Also was there a firmware-upgrade to support arbitrary waveforms on the X2000 series? I recall Dave mentioning something in a video. Is it free?
Sounds like a good deal to me. Looks like these are going for over 3K new with the VGA and the Seg Mem.
There's a buy one get one free upgrade promotional from Agilent right now.
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2309757&nid=-536902447.0.00&id=2309757 (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2309757&nid=-536902447.0.00&id=2309757)
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Has anyone idea what is behind licences Infiniium mode and Remote Log in the current 2.35 firmware?
I'm not sure if both were present in any previous versions.
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Is there a way to have serial decoding on the logic channels (X2000)? I want to be able to read the ASCII message from an FTDI on one of the logic channels. It works with the analogue channels but you cannot enable serial decode when the logic analyzer is running. I don't really get why the scope doesn't do that. Once the aquisition ended the scope should have plenty of time to decode the 1s and 0s from the logic channels into something human readable.
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Anyone know what djvinc meant with firmware update?
I cannot find him any more on the members list.
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Anyone know what djvinc meant with firmware update?
I cannot find him any more on the members list.
If I remember it correctly he wanted to go / was asked to go. He was selling firmware hacks and moved on / was moved on when that didn't go down well here.
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Can you get a scope screenshot from the Agilent web interface?
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Can you get a scope screenshot from the Agilent web interface?
yes!
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Can you get a scope screenshot from the Agilent web interface?
yes!
Mmmmmmm, that is a key feature I'd like to have. Something Rigol doesn't offer, at least on the DSA they don't.
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Anyone know what djvinc meant with firmware update?
I cannot find him any more on the members list.
If I remember it correctly he wanted to go / was asked to go. He was selling firmware hacks and moved on / was moved on when that didn't go down well here.
He voluntarily asked me to remove his account and his posts, so I did so.
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Can you get a scope screenshot from the Agilent web interface?
yes!
This is the thing I mostly uses LAN for on my MSO6000. What would be handy though is the ability to do a colour-invert to get a white background for when you want to print it - annoying to have to put it throug a graphics program to do this every time.
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This is the thing I mostly uses LAN for on my MSO6000. What would be handy though is the ability to do a colour-invert to get a white background for when you want to print it - annoying to have to put it throug a graphics program to do this every time.
Me too. Do you not have the 'invert graticule' checkbox?
Edit - only just noticed my 7104 doesn't have it!
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Can you get a scope screenshot from the Agilent web interface?
yes!
You can also connect throught VNC to scope and take a screenshot. This feature I use rather that connection throught LXI.
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You can also connect throught VNC to scope and take a screenshot. This feature I use rather that connection throught LXI.
There is a standard port 5900 VNC server running on the Agilent scopes? All models?
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There is a standard port 5900 VNC server running on the Agilent scopes? All models?
Yes, it is available on 5900. I'm sure about all models, just try it or use some port scanner (e.g http://nmap.org/zenmap/ (http://nmap.org/zenmap/) )
On 33522B which also is CE based, VNC is not available, but there is telnet on 5810.
On DMM 34411 based on WxWorks is also telnet available on same port.
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Yes, it is available on 5900. I'm sure about all models, just try it or use some port scanner (e.g http://nmap.org/zenmap/ (http://nmap.org/zenmap/) )
On 33522B which also is CE based, VNC is not available, but there is telnet on 5810.
On DMM 34411 based on WxWorks is also telnet available on same port.
Damn, sure wish Rigol had this, though i've not port scanned my DSA either.. I assume the DSA and the scopes would be the same if they had it.
Thanks
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Damn, sure wish Rigol had this, though i've not port scanned my DSA either.. I assume the DSA and the scopes would be the same if they had it.
Thanks
I have only one Rigol power supply DSP1308 and on this only the port 80 and 111 are open.
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I have only one Rigol power supply DSP1308 and on this only the port 80 and 11 are open.
Doesn't Rigol claim LXI compliance for it?
A LXI instrument must provide the discovery procedure taken from VXI-11. And that requires an RPC port mapper listening on port 111. To discover instruments a control software is supposed to perform an RPC broadcast and then set up an VXI-11 connection to a responding instrument. LXI only requires that an instrument understands one single SCPI command via that VXI-11 connection, the *IDN? command, and responds with its ID info.
A LXI instrument is also required to provide an XML description file of its capabilities at the http://<instrument ip address>/lxi/identification url. That document should have a section listing its network interfaces.
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A LXI instrument must provide the discovery procedure taken from VXI-11. And that requires an RPC port mapper listening on port 111. To discover instruments a control software is supposed to perform an RPC broadcast and then set up an VXI-11 connection to a responding instrument. LXI only requires that an instrument understands one single SCPI command via that VXI-11 connection, the *IDN? command, and responds with its ID info.
There was a typo, opened ports are 80 and 111 of course ;-)
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Has anyone bought the App Bundle for the 2000 or 3000 scopes? For the 3000 series its called DSOX3APPBNDL and included all software upgrades and in the UK its £538.00. I'm tempted for the serial decoding features and I'd be interested to see how well the power measurements application works but I'm not sure I entirely trust it..
Thanks,
Nick
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Just bought the App bundle for the DSO-X 2024A. It's called DSOX2APPBNDL
Was not sure what to expect but received a large padded bag (45x31cm) Inside that was another padded bag (35x24cm)
Inside that was an A4 sheet of paper which was the License Entitlement Certificate.
It would have been so much easier and cheaper to email it as a PDF
At least I wasn't charged postage.
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I have the 3000X app bundle.
Serial decoding works brilliantly well, though it does have a limitation whereby it seems only able to decode serial data as it is captured, and doesn't work on stored data. So, you have to set up decoding correctly first, then capture data with the decoder enabled. You can't capture a data stream once and then play around reconfiguring the decoder options until it decodes correctly. Apart from that, which is a relatively minor inconvenience IMHO, it's great. (Note, bizarrely, the 2000X series can't do serial decoding on the digital channels - only the 3000X can do it).
The power measurement features look very comprehensive if you're in the business of designing circuits powered directly from the mains, but I don't have a current probe or isolated differential probe to use with them. Without this extra hardware, I don't think there's a great deal of benefit.
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Note, bizarrely, the 2000X series can't do serial decoding on the digital channels - only the 3000X can do it.
Which pisses me off greatly. They don't really mention it explicitly. They just say "MSO2000 Series oscilloscope with serial decoding" and one the same spot in the 3000 series data sheet ther's an extra "on all digital channels". So you have to compare both datasheets to figure that one out. Did someone find a hack to enable serial decoding on the X2000 series digital channels?
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The lack of a hardware frequency counter seems to coincide with the lack of equivalent time sampling. The frequency counter works by looking at the output of the trigger comparator, not the ADC result. The problem with not having equivalent time sampling is trigger jitter. If you measure a fast risetime signal (a risetime of perhaps a few sample periods), it will appear to jump around somewhat, +/- 1/2 the sample period. This is because the scope can only trigger on the sampling clock, whereas in real life the time the signal crosses the trigger threshold can be between sample clocks. Equivalent time sampling basically tells the scope what phase the sample clock is relative to the trigger, with extremely high accuracy, in the tens of picoseconds range. The display system must then shift all the sampled points by this amount. This removes the +/- 1/2 sample period jitter. If you're making high speed jitter measurements this is critical. The Tek 4000 series scopes lack equivalent time sampling too, but those those are high end, the base model is $10k!!
The actual trigger to clock delay may still be calculated for use with equivalent time sampling in a way similar to how a transition midpoint timing time to digital converter works:
http://www.ko4bb.com/~bruce/TDC.html (http://www.ko4bb.com/~bruce/TDC.html)
An odd side effect of doing this however is that the triggering will be susceptible to aliasing on fast edges which will cause excessive trigger jitter. Aliasing even on benign input signals will occur because of jitter and non-linearity in the digitizer itself. Maybe they use some DSP magic during decimation to alleviate that but I would be interested in seeing oscilloscope evaluations which tested for it.
I have noticed that all low end DSOs and most (all?) mid range ones no longer support equivalent time sampling even when their real time sampling rates are insufficient for their fastest horizontal scales but that takes some of the bite out of only having old DSOs available.
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I have the 3000X app bundle.
Serial decoding works brilliantly well, though it does have a limitation whereby it seems only able to decode serial data as it is captured, and doesn't work on stored data. So, you have to set up decoding correctly first, then capture data with the decoder enabled. You can't capture a data stream once and then play around reconfiguring the decoder options until it decodes correctly. Apart from that, which is a relatively minor inconvenience IMHO, it's great. (Note, bizarrely, the 2000X series can't do serial decoding on the digital channels - only the 3000X can do it).
The power measurement features look very comprehensive if you're in the business of designing circuits powered directly from the mains, but I don't have a current probe or isolated differential probe to use with them. Without this extra hardware, I don't think there's a great deal of benefit.
As a current probe you can use some LEM transducer e.g CKSR series, they are cheap (20EUR) and BW is about 200kHz.
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Can anybody with a 3000 series scope and the DSOX3APPBNDL bundle provide a screenshot of the About screen?
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Here you go
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Thanks! So the license appear all separated and not as a single 'bundle' or 'all' license.
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Not as severe as with yours, but it jumps a bit. Same scope as you with 2.37 firmware. I fail to see what the big deal is.
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About 70ns but not consistent.
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On a DSOX3034A (2.37) I get about -48ns of shift at 200ns/div.
Could someone compare with a signal with much larger slew-rate?
The slew-rate of my test signal is about 2.5V/1.25us
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But i do not buy Keysight devices again.... :(
Unfortunately, there is no competitive scope in this cathegory and price from LeCroy, Hameg or Tektronix. Maybe you would be happy with Siglent or Rigol?? But I do not think so.
Well, this is a rather minor bug. At least Keysight scopes hardly ever lock up. (Never happened to me since I bought my scope in 4/2013.)
EDITED.
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I'd also say it's a rather minor thing. Okay, if the bug shifts the signal relative to another signal, that might be a big deal. But if all signals are shifted (which would be logical, since it's a trigger), you can simply adjust your horizontal offset.
Edit: Just confirmed that all signals are shifted, not just the one you triggered from. So not a big deal.
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https://twitter.com/eevblog/status/638850174731706369
Hey Dave, what happened to your scope? What are you going to do with that?