Author Topic: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown  (Read 23158 times)

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Online PA0PBZ

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2014, 07:34:15 pm »
I don't think that it is a serial number on that resistor, 201189 looks too much like a date for me  :)
(24:45)
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline bronson

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2014, 09:22:37 am »
http://www.onlinemetals.com/copperguide.cfm   (search on tellurium)

They agree with you Robrenz: tellurium doesn't improve electrical properties but it does improve machinability.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2014, 10:16:30 am »
Then why do the connector manufacturers (like Pomona and others) promote them as such. And companies such as IETlabs, Agilent, Fluke that should know these things also claim it?:
http://www.ietlabs.com/bp-1500-bindingposts.html
http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pd-1000000309%3Aepsg%3Apro-pn-11058A/low-thermal-emf-banana-to-banana-jumper-set?&cc=AU&lc=eng
http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/54407002iseng0200.pdf

http://www.lowthermal.com/cables-and-connectors.php
Quote
The use of tellurium copper instead of beryllium copper or brass, as well as gold plating with no nickel under plating ensure these posts exhibit the lowest contribution of thermal EMF.

Gear from the masters like Keithley also use "low EMF" tellurium copper input jacks I believe.

It's not a tellurium on it's own, it's something to do with the interaction with the other platings. Perhaps tellurium allows direct gold plating whilst the others don't?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 10:20:03 am by EEVblog »
 

Online Mickle T.

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2014, 10:24:10 am »
Some information about the input terminals and my translation from chinese.
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2014, 10:33:23 am »
http://www.onlinemetals.com/copperguide.cfm   (search on tellurium)

They agree with you Robrenz: tellurium doesn't improve electrical properties but it does improve machinability.

I wouldn't argue that tellurium copper has better electrical properties than pure copper. However, it is more resistant to oxidation, and copper oxide has terrible electrical properties. The Seebeck voltage of a copper-copper oxide junction is greater than 500 µV/°C, which is over a thousand times that of copper-copper or copper-gold.

Robrenz is clearly an excellent machinist and I'm sure he knows a lot more than I do about metals, but I'm not sure his expertise on this matter is superior to that of professional metrologists.
 

Offline quarks

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2014, 11:57:50 am »
For all I know so far, Tellurium is only/mainly used for better machinability.
CuTe especially is for easier turning lathe use. 
AFAIK there are no CuTe sheets on the market. Therefore there are no spade lugs with CuTe.
The Seebeck coefficient of Tellurium is suppose to be 500µV/K.
So it is unlikely help in any way for low EMF.
Copper-Oxide is suppose to have 1000µV/K.
Copper Tellurium Alloy will improove corrosion resistance compared to pure copper.
But to take better care of oxidation, gold plating is used.

 
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 12:24:50 pm by quarks »
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2014, 12:56:07 pm »
Then why do the connector manufacturers (like Pomona and others) promote them as such. And companies such as IETlabs, Agilent, Fluke that should know these things also claim it?:
http://www.ietlabs.com/bp-1500-bindingposts.html
http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pd-1000000309%3Aepsg%3Apro-pn-11058A/low-thermal-emf-banana-to-banana-jumper-set?&cc=AU&lc=eng
http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/54407002iseng0200.pdf

http://www.lowthermal.com/cables-and-connectors.php
Quote
The use of tellurium copper instead of beryllium copper or brass, as well as gold plating with no nickel under plating ensure these posts exhibit the lowest contribution of thermal EMF.

Gear from the masters like Keithley also use "low EMF" tellurium copper input jacks I believe.

It's not a tellurium on it's own, it's something to do with the interaction with the other platings. Perhaps tellurium allows direct gold plating whilst the others don't?

Its low EMF because its Copper instead of Brass not because its Tellurium Copper instead of pure Copper. If you scan the info from many suppliers below you will see the larger uses of Telurium copper are very mundane parts that could care less about thermal EMFs. BUT they all have one thing in common, they are machined items not stamped.

@ rolycat
If the minimally better oxidation resistance was why it is superior why do many gold plate the Tellurium Copper?


From Metal suppiers online
Applications    Welding and cutting torch tips, products requiring high conductivity and high machinability. 

From ANCHOR BRONZE AND METALS
Applications
Forgings, screw machine products and parts requiring high conductivity, extensive machining, corrosion resistance, copper color, or a combination of these; electrical connectors, motor and switch parts, plumbing fittings, soldering coppers, welding torch tips, transistor bases and furnace brazed articles.

From FARMERS COPPER
Farmer’s Copper Ltd. inventories C14500 Tellurium copper round rod. C145 Tellurium is adapted for use in high-speed automatic screw machines. The copper telluride precipitations become finely dispersed throughout the matrix and assist in chip breakage into short pieces, thus enabling a much higher machining speed than with pure copper. Copper 145 Tellurium has a machinability rating scale of 85%, compared to pure copper of 20%, thus insuring longer tool life. The high conductivity of tellurium copper makes it a suitable material for electrical applications, and is an outstanding alloy for the production of hot forged products.
Tellurium C145
Typical applications
Electrical Switches on power semiconductors
Welding Torch tips
Transformer & Circuit-breaker terminals
Fasteners

From LUVATA WOLVERHAMPTON
Pure copper is a very ductile metal. For many applications this is an advantage, but not when copper is to be machined. However, the cutting properties of copper can be significantly improved by alloying copper with half per cent of tellurium. The electrical and thermal conductivity and ductility of this free machining copper are only slightly altered.
The effect of tellurium is based on copper telluride precipitations in the microstructure. These precipitates have the effect of cutting the chips into short pieces thus enabling a much higher machining speed than is possible with pure copper. On a machinability rating scale with 100 for free cutting brass and 20 for copper, tellurium copper is rated at 90. The tools last longer too.
Tellurium copper is resistant to hydrogen embrittlement. Electrical conductivity is high, approx. 52 m/W mm2 (90% IACS).

From ESPI METALS
Tellurium copper’s resistance to hydrogen embrittlement and high conductivity make it a good choice for electrical applications, especially those which require extensive machining. The addition of tellurium to copper results in short, clean chips and allows cutting speeds of five times those used with pure copper, with much less wear on tool life. Also, the electrical conductivity, thermal conductivity and ductility are only slightly altered from pure copper. Typical applications include welding tips, switch gears, bolts and studs, and relay parts.

From Key to Metals website
Conducting springs, contacts and similar highly stressed members that also may have to be formed may use either chromium copper or beryllium copper. Parts are shaped soft and then strengthened by heat treatment. Parts that must be highly machined and highly conductive are made from the free-machining coppers. Widely used is tellurium copper, which has 90% minimum conductivity and a machinability rating of 80 to 90 (free-cutting brass = 100). Leaded copper (1% Pb) or sulfurized copper is also used because of the 80% machinability rating, with most other properties similar to copper. If tensile strengths of 440 to 525 MPa are required at 80% machinability, heat-treated and hard drawn forms of tellurium-nickel copper may be chosen, provided electrical conductivity of 50% is permissible.





Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2014, 02:08:27 pm »
For all I know so far, Tellurium is only/mainly used for better machinability.
CuTe especially is for easier turning lathe use. 
AFAIK there are no CuTe sheets on the market. Therefore there are no spade lugs with CuTe.
The Seebeck coefficient of Tellurium is suppose to be 500µV/K.
So it is unlikely help in any way for low EMF.

Yet almost every "low EMF" class low level and precision measurement product uses and promotes the use of tellurium copper on it's input jacks, and calls them "low EMF" input jacks in many cases. So there must be something in it. It can't just be for it's machine-ability. If it is then you have to be saying that Agilent, Fluke, Keithley, IET etc have all been mislead. I find that quite unlikely.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 02:13:53 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2014, 02:15:42 pm »
From Metal suppiers online
Applications    Welding and cutting torch tips, products requiring high conductivity and high machinability. 

Sure, but metal suppliers wouldn't know anything about low EMF measurement products.
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2014, 02:28:06 pm »
Robrenz, an impressive list of references to be sure, but most of them mention the high conductivity and corrosion resistance of tellurium copper as well as its machinability.

To reiterate my original point, you stated that the ONLY reason for using tellurium copper was the machinability. From luvata.com, one of the sources you referenced: "On a machinability rating scale with 100 being for free cutting brass and 20 for copper, tellurium copper is rated at 90." So why not use brass contacts? They will certainly be cheaper.

My contention is that the alloy provides a good balance between these three desirable properties. Better machinability and corrosion resistance than pure copper and better conductivity than brass.

 

Offline robrenz

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2014, 04:04:55 pm »
From Metal suppiers online
Applications    Welding and cutting torch tips, products requiring high conductivity and high machinability. 

Sure, but metal suppliers wouldn't know anything about low EMF measurement products.

Then explain why Pomona would use ETP copper on its Spade lug patch cord for low thermal EMF measurements and use a combination of ETP copper and Tellurium Copper on its Low Thermal EMF spade lug to retractable banana plug patch cord. Notice the only part of this one that is Tellurium copper is the part that is machined and there is beryllium copper on the actual contact spring section.

Offline quarks

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2014, 05:53:42 pm »
Yet almost every "low EMF" class low level and precision measurement product uses and promotes the use of tellurium copper on it's input jacks, and calls them "low EMF" input jacks in many cases. So there must be something in it. It can't just be for it's machine-ability. If it is then you have to be saying that Agilent, Fluke, Keithley, IET etc have all been mislead. I find that quite unlikely.

So far my research showed that Tellurium has nothing to do with low EMF, only the copper is important.
But pure copper is nasty with turnig lathe and would cause endurance problems with the cutting chisel.
Therefore Tellurium is added.

I would be very interseted to see/learn what I missed about the Tellurium "low EMF" part, so please let us know if you get details about it.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2014, 06:44:03 pm »
The basic requirement is to have all the parts made from the same metal. Thus copper wire, copper lugs and as close to pure copper terminals. That pure copper is not fun to machine, and that Tellurium is only needed in minute quantities which have little effect on the bulk properties is why it is used. the alternatives is to add tin or lead, to make brass or bronze, with both are easy to machine, but which have very different properties.

You can quite easily have thermocouple wire being made in nickel, and a lot of high temperature wire for thermocouples is pure nickel, and the terminals and connections as well are the same metal. Works just as well as copper, but a lot better at high temperature. Higher resistance is not a problem, as you simply compensate by using a variable resistor to get to a predetermined value for the cold circuit. IIRC from doing EGT on helicopters the requirement was 8R +-0.1R for the circuit to the meter terminals, measured with an AVO8. I would get regular calls from the electrical guys to come fix "My wiring" when they had either broken the lug off, or had to remove a loom section with it in, or remove the engine. Always cleaned both sides, and then if I had to replace a lug I always got a pack of new lugs ( 100) and used 2 of them, leaving the rest for them to use wherever. the adjustment was a big wire wound resistor with a slider arm, complete with a locking screw to hold the setting fixed. Sat right behind the meter. Cal was adjust resistance, and then open circuit meter and see that the needle read room temperature, as a few degrees do not worry if you were looking at a 1200C reading to check that you are not melting the turbine back side off.
 

Offline wiss

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2014, 07:44:55 pm »
So, soon I'll find out, I'm about to try a DIN5 on a Solartron 7075.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2014, 08:13:07 am »
I bet the 6048 is just one bit flip in dallas ram :)

Wouldn't surprise me. That would give the extra resolution.
I searched the ROM and couldn't find an obvious string. So not as easy as an ASCII model number swap.
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2014, 09:06:10 am »
I bet the 6048 is just one bit flip in dallas ram :)

Wouldn't surprise me. That would give the extra resolution.
I searched the ROM and couldn't find an obvious string. So not as easy as an ASCII model number swap.

Hi Dave,
more probably, there's a completely different firmware, as the EPROM in your unit is labelled "6047".

If you go through the schematics, and compare with the photos, you'll find several differences between both models.
Mostly, the 6048 contains additional components.

There's an additional PREMA ASIC on the 6048 µP PCB, U18, seems to jitter the µP clock (for better averaging to 8 1/2 digits ??)
As this circuitry interacts with the 6520 PIA, an EPROM update might not work without the additional circuitry.
Also, an additional -5V is needed.

On the analogue PCB, they mainly implemented the LTZ1000 instead of the LM399H (but that should not make a big deal).
Here they run a certain OPAMP on -25V instead of -15V; so  they have an additional -45V supply.

Maybe Prema might help with a request how to update the instrument.

Frank
 

Online Mickle T.

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2014, 09:07:53 am »
Wouldn't surprise me. That would give the extra resolution.
I searched the ROM and couldn't find an obvious string. So not as easy as an ASCII model number swap.
It is absolutely impossible to convert 6047 to 6048 because of incompatible hardware and firmware:
1) voltage reference (LMx99-LTZ1000);
2) Ohm mode current source (single mode - dual mode);
3) floating power supply (6047 don't have -45 V channel);
4) model 6048 have a dual PR BK7 ADC. The second ADC (U18 on the microprocessor PCB) is for temperature sensor.
5) model 6048 have a firmware based temperature coefficients compensation.
 
http://radiokot.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1919201#p1919201
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2014, 09:37:39 am »
I bet the 6048 is just one bit flip in dallas ram :)

Wouldn't surprise me. That would give the extra resolution.
I searched the ROM and couldn't find an obvious string. So not as easy as an ASCII model number swap.
Check the instruction manual of the meter, page 5/3. Here you will see that the 6047 can do the same integration times as the 6048, but it stops at 7.5 digits. Also, in 4.8.1 it tells you that the calculations are made with 8.5 digit resolution. So I'm guessing you can force the meter to show 8 digits, by averaging 10-20 four second measurement with math functions. But OFC this will be only resolution, not accuracy, for that you need the LTZ1000, U18 and so on, but you already know that.
 

Offline wiss

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2014, 11:08:44 am »
Are the schematics accurate?
When I trace the input in the schematics I end up with an input impedance of 500 - 50k in series with a diode and no negative feedback for the input-amp...
 

Online Mickle T.

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2014, 11:21:22 am »
The 6048 schematics is accurate.
The input amplifier is a voltage-to-current conveter and ADC have a current input.
 

Offline quarks

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2014, 11:43:29 am »
http://radiokot.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1919201#p1919201

I have seen that before, but I have to say it again, I am very impressed by your knowledge and building skills :-+
 

Offline wiss

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2014, 12:20:31 pm »
The 6048 schematics is accurate.
The input amplifier is a voltage-to-current conveter and ADC have a current input.

So, the DUT is inside the feedback-loop?
I assumed that the negative input terminal was floating-ground.
Thanks
 

Offline k2teknik

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2014, 07:07:58 am »
The 6048 schematics is accurate.
The input amplifier is a voltage-to-current conveter and ADC have a current input.
What sw are you using for the drawing you had been showing here?
 

Offline mwilson

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Re: EEVblog #613 - Prema 6047 Multimeter Teardown
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2014, 02:08:47 am »
What sw are you using for the drawing you had been showing here?

It appears to be NI Multisim (http://www.ni.com/multisim/)
 


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