Author Topic: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope  (Read 15870 times)

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Offline BU508A

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New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« on: May 23, 2017, 08:33:29 am »
Dave's unboxing the new OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope:

https://youtu.be/ByUiOk00K0U


In Germany it goes with 1199.- Euro incl. 19% VAT:
http://www.messgeraete-chemnitz.de/OWON-Oszilloskope/OWON-XDS3202A-Oszilloskop-200MHz-2-Kanal-12bit-alle-Optionen

Edit: Typo in price.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 08:35:26 am by BU508A »
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Offline bktemp

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2017, 09:04:31 am »
It seems to be completely messed up with all the specs and part numbers. 8bit, 12bit, 14bit. 500MS/s, 1GS/s, 2GS/s? I have no idea.
Depending on where you look, you can find the 200MHz version XDS3202A with either 2GS/s or 1GS/s at 12bits or even 1GS/s at 14bits.
But the one Dave got seems to support only 500MS/s at 12bits and 100MS/s at 14bits.

Even the official user manual states 2GS/s for single channel without any restriction when using12bit mode.  :-//
 

Offline WattSekunde

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2017, 03:01:42 pm »
I wonder if this oscilloscope has a "real" 14bit converter chip in it or is this software interpolation?

« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 04:29:22 pm by WattSekunde »
 

Offline k4rlhp

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2017, 04:07:03 pm »
I wonder if this oscilloscope has a "real" 14bit converter chip in it or is this software interpolation?

Dave, this is a valid concern, how useful this 14b converter really is.
As far as this scope goes, it's only worth considering for 14b, batt.power/isolation and potentially data-logging.
I think it's pointless to give this scope much tube time without verifying that the headline-stuff works.
especially considering the state of UI and some f() implementation.
Seeing the internals is interesting but I doubt we'll see anything unexpected, right?

K
 
 

Online xrunner

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2017, 04:12:05 pm »
Watched the video - for some features indicated it might be worth it; however, the user interface is ... awful. I just don't understand it. Why go to all the trouble to make something like this and make a user interface/front panel like that? Any one of us could have designed it better. I just can't believe there is nobody in that company that can't do a better job.  :-//
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Offline f4eru

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2017, 05:34:26 pm »
I doubt we'll see anything unexpected, right?
The A/D chip(s) may be of interest. I'm really curious what technical solution they use.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2017, 10:14:41 pm »
Watched the video - for some features indicated it might be worth it; however, the user interface is ... awful. I just don't understand it. Why go to all the trouble to make something like this and make a user interface/front panel like that? Any one of us could have designed it better. I just can't believe there is nobody in that company that can't do a better job.  :-//
Probably a case of not hiring an actual industrial designer and maybe just the in house mechanical engineer did it all. I can't even imagine a contracted job looking that bad.  And who the fuck put a red LED behind the yellow CH1??

Having worked with a real industrial designer you get an appreciation of how it's not just mechanical/plastics engineering, there's an actual art to it above and beyond typical mechanical work.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2017, 10:26:38 pm »
I wonder if this oscilloscope has a "real" 14bit converter chip in it or is this software interpolation?
Probably like lecroy and keysight, where their ADCs are built of many many "slices" oversampling the signal so they can provide a configurable resolution <-> bandwidth tradeoff. What is a real 14b ACD? flash? multislope? and what isn't a proper ADC? does a pipelined SAR have too much DNL to be a proper ADC?

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Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2017, 11:04:30 pm »
Owon XDS3202A is crap as expected. But hey, the SDS7102 was OK back in 2011.

In 2011 there was IMHO no other cheap scope with a big LCD.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2017, 11:18:30 pm »
Watched the video - for some features indicated it might be worth it; however, the user interface is ... awful. I just don't understand it. Why go to all the trouble to make something like this and make a user interface/front panel like that? Any one of us could have designed it better. I just can't believe there is nobody in that company that can't do a better job.  :-//
Probably a case of not hiring an actual industrial designer and maybe just the in house mechanical engineer did it all. I can't even imagine a contracted job looking that bad.  And who the fuck put a red LED behind the yellow CH1??

Typical Chinese company attitude, just like Neoden's comical N4 video.
 Maybe it's something like being seen to lose face by having to use external help? :-//  Are consultants a common thing in China?
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Online xrunner

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2017, 11:24:26 pm »
Maybe it's something like being seen to lose face by having to use external help? :-//  Are consultants a common thing in China?

I know. The manuals too, for example Rigol's manuals are not the worst I've seen, but there are grammatical errors all through it. I've had college level technical writing - I could edit the thing to read properly in one day of work. Really, I've seriously considered writing the company and offering to do the job for one manual and see if they liked it. Prolly be a wasted call though ...  :-//
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Offline Someone

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2017, 04:26:12 am »
Every marketing specification ticked off and a kitchen sink thrown in, could be a nice scope once everything works. But the interface isn't the worst design out there when you look at what tek were pushing in this space.

Most of the same problems in its interface almost as if owon is copying it like for like.
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2017, 05:33:34 am »
Every marketing specification ticked off and a kitchen sink thrown in, could be a nice scope once everything works. But the interface isn't the worst design out there when you look at what tek were pushing in this space.
I am working on a Tek TDS 2012C right now.  Similar layout, except that the 'Horizontal' background colour has been extended down and around the 'Ext Trig' BNC (which is erroneous, but clearly done to keep the design simple -- they could have carried the 'Trigger' background around the trigger input, though).

At least Tektronix use consistent layouts within their families of 'scopes.  If you are using their brand exclusively then you shouldn't have too much trouble.

Keysight use a different UI approach, and it can change a lot between different 'scopes.  I suspect that they put more resources into the UI for each model.
Quote
Most of the same problems in its interface almost as if owon is copying it like for like.
I don't see the similarity.  The Owon button layout isn't even orderly -- look at that DMM button wedged in there.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2017, 08:16:01 am »
Every marketing specification ticked off and a kitchen sink thrown in, could be a nice scope once everything works. But the interface isn't the worst design out there when you look at what tek were pushing in this space.
I am working on a Tek TDS 2012C right now.  Similar layout, except that the 'Horizontal' background colour has been extended down and around the 'Ext Trig' BNC (which is erroneous, but clearly done to keep the design simple -- they could have carried the 'Trigger' background around the trigger input, though).

At least Tektronix use consistent layouts within their families of 'scopes.  If you are using their brand exclusively then you shouldn't have too much trouble.

Keysight use a different UI approach, and it can change a lot between different 'scopes.  I suspect that they put more resources into the UI for each model.
Quote
Most of the same problems in its interface almost as if owon is copying it like for like.
I don't see the similarity.  The Owon button layout isn't even orderly -- look at that DMM button wedged in there.
I don't see the commonality between tek scopes other than the DPO2000/3000/4000/5000 series had for a while, the scopes before and after then have departed away from what was a great UI design.
 

Offline hans

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2017, 09:56:37 am »
12-bit of 14-bit 0.5GSPS ADC's from like TI/National Semi are incredibly expensive. In the order of 250$+ per chip in 1k quantity.
Given typical markup of a product, that would be almost half the cost of this entire unit.

So yes I would be very interested to see what kind of ADC they have used. Given 100MSPS 14-bit and 500MSPS 12-bit modes, it almost can't be some kind of (implicit) high-res mode/oversampling, because you need a factor 16x for that.
.. unless the scope actually has a 1.6GSPS 12-bit ADC, like the TI ADC12D800RF. Does 14-bit only work on 1 ch or 2chs?

Regarding the design: I think Rigol equipment are not far off. Their front panel silkscreen is just as wanky, but they atleast kept the knobs white.

 

Offline abraxa

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2017, 10:52:56 am »
12-bit of 14-bit 0.5GSPS ADC's from like TI/National Semi are incredibly expensive. In the order of 250$+ per chip in 1k quantity.
Given typical markup of a product, that would be almost half the cost of this entire unit.

So yes I would be very interested to see what kind of ADC they have used. Given 100MSPS 14-bit and 500MSPS 12-bit modes, it almost can't be some kind of (implicit) high-res mode/oversampling, because you need a factor 16x for that.
.. unless the scope actually has a 1.6GSPS 12-bit ADC, like the TI ADC12D800RF. Does 14-bit only work on 1 ch or 2chs?

Regarding the design: I think Rigol equipment are not far off. Their front panel silkscreen is just as wanky, but they atleast kept the knobs white.

That is, assuming that you get a real ENOB of 12 or 14. This being Rigol, I wouldn't be surprised if the result of the oversampling calculation is 12 or 14 bit without using the required number of samples to perform the necessary oversampling. That way, they can use those numbers in the marketing material while keeping cost low. Most users won't ever notice whether the values are accurate or not anyway, especially with sinc interpolation enabled.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2017, 10:58:55 am »
12-bit of 14-bit 0.5GSPS ADC's from like TI/National Semi are incredibly expensive. In the order of 250$+ per chip in 1k quantity.

I have not tore it down yet, but almost certain it will use a HMCAD1520
http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/hmcad1520.pdf

Only 11.8 ENOB in 14 bit mode (which is software 20MHz limited BTW @ 100MS/s)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 11:01:02 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline NANDBlog

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2017, 11:40:45 am »
I got the impression, that some of the features are not working as they are supposed to...
 

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Offline Tom45

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2017, 01:06:49 pm »
Having to press and hold the power button to turn it is probably a good feature given that this is (or can be) a battery operated scope. It would be frustrating to arrive at a job site and find that the battery was dead because the power button got bumped in transit.
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2017, 01:14:05 pm »
Having to press and hold the power button to turn it is probably a good feature given that this is (or can be) a battery operated scope. It would be frustrating to arrive at a job site and find that the battery was dead because the power button got bumped in transit.
Should have a decent carry case that avoids that anyway. If the power switch can be easily bumped so the scope turns on, then its ability to turn on will not be the only problem.
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Offline Hydrawerk

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Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2017, 01:43:03 pm »
That back RCA (Cinch) connector is a Composite video output according to the user manual.
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Online Brumby

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2017, 02:43:42 pm »
That back RCA (Cinch) connector is a Composite video output according to the user manual.

That was my first thought when I saw it - but then I asked ... WHY?

After seeing it formally identified as such - I still ask .... WHY?
 
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Offline AF6LJ

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2017, 03:16:22 pm »
I am completely floored....
I cannot believe that scope was released in the messed shape it is in..
 :palm: :palm:
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Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2017, 03:22:42 pm »
Well, at Owon it is normal. But yes, it was released back in 2015, I think.
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Offline Muxr

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2017, 04:07:41 pm »
On the first look it didn't look that terrible. On the first look like few seconds I mean.

It's like an unfinished prototype. Where you just add buttons where they will fit and bare minimum unfinished proof of concept features.
 

Offline k4rlhp

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2017, 05:20:23 pm »
On the first look it didn't look that terrible. On the first look like few seconds I mean.

It's like an unfinished prototype. Where you just add buttons where they will fit and bare minimum unfinished proof of concept features.

Lets open the MBA playbook..... "Minimum Viable Product", anyone?
 

Offline k4rlhp

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2017, 05:27:35 pm »
I am completely floored....
I cannot believe that scope was released in the messed shape it is in..
 :palm: :palm:

If OWON would release the scope for open source, I wonder if it would help their sales.
Considering what fw state the thing comes in, if the HW is half decent implementation, this could be an interesting combo.
I doubt they have the guts to do it, IP crap and everything.
 
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Offline AF6LJ

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2017, 06:18:03 pm »
I am completely floored....
I cannot believe that scope was released in the messed shape it is in..
 :palm: :palm:

If OWON would release the scope for open source, I wonder if it would help their sales.
Considering what fw state the thing comes in, if the HW is half decent implementation, this could be an interesting combo.
I doubt they have the guts to do it, IP crap and everything.
That would be a daring move and could salvage the product.
There is a problem with that idea that needs to be mentioned.
Some FPGAs and other ICs have NDAs that go along with the hardware / firmware development platform.
That might be a roadblock to making this scope open source.
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Offline WackyGerman

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2017, 06:27:53 pm »
On the first glance the oscilloscope doesn t look that bad , but in details there are many strange things in the user interface and in the behaviour at work . Lots of things to fix . At this status the oscilloscope is a pita and N in 1 means Nonsence in 1  >:D
 

Offline Jeff1946

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2017, 09:14:16 pm »
It seemed to me at the end of the video it seemed Dave was disappointed that he couldn't give a positive review.  Kinda  like seeing a pretty girl (or guy for you ladies) starting a conversation and realizing there is not much up stairs.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2017, 03:46:26 am »
When Dave first started having issues with the controls, I was thinking - maybe reading the manual could be helpful ... but as things went on and on it soon became obvious that the amount of manual reading necessary to get a handle on some very familiar and basic functionality would be far too much.

Tools should be intuitive to use as much as possible, especially with things like scopes - and this unit seems to fail badly.

To spend a few minutes studying up on some obscure and involved function for a specific situation is one thing - but having to do this for the basics means days or weeks of low productivity (not to mention the frustration) while the learning curve is climbed.

... and I haven't even touched the waiting and wondering approach instead of something simple like 'click' to confirm.

One last thing that would concern me is that, if one was looking for a function that was not uncommon in scopes, but couldn't find it - they would have to wonder if it was hidden or just not available.


A lot of this might be just me blowing hot air - but the fact that I can even talk like this is pretty much a wet blanket on thoughts on this scope.


I can only hope the 14bit capability is worth the discomfort.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 03:48:00 am by Brumby »
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2017, 05:12:18 am »
I am completely floored....
I cannot believe that scope was released in the messed shape it is in..
 :palm: :palm:

If OWON would release the scope for open source, I wonder if it would help their sales.
Considering what fw state the thing comes in, if the HW is half decent implementation, this could be an interesting combo.
I doubt they have the guts to do it, IP crap and everything.
That would be a daring move and could salvage the product.
There is a problem with that idea that needs to be mentioned.
Some FPGAs and other ICs have NDAs that go along with the hardware / firmware development platform.
That might be a roadblock to making this scope open source.

You may have to override everything on it and start from scratch. Would be a big project but divided amongst many hands may work out that's if the hardware is any good to begin with ;)
 
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Offline AF6LJ

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2017, 09:43:41 pm »
I am completely floored....
I cannot believe that scope was released in the messed shape it is in..
 :palm: :palm:

If OWON would release the scope for open source, I wonder if it would help their sales.
Considering what fw state the thing comes in, if the HW is half decent implementation, this could be an interesting combo.
I doubt they have the guts to do it, IP crap and everything.
That would be a daring move and could salvage the product.
There is a problem with that idea that needs to be mentioned.
Some FPGAs and other ICs have NDAs that go along with the hardware / firmware development platform.
That might be a roadblock to making this scope open source.

You may have to override everything on it and start from scratch. Would be a big project but divided amongst many hands may work out that's if the hardware is any good to begin with ;)

Yah it is going to be a big job.

The comment I left in the video.
"That is not bad for a $300.00 scope"
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Offline Fungus

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2017, 06:42:18 am »
That would be a daring move and could salvage the product.
There is a problem with that idea that needs to be mentioned.
Some FPGAs and other ICs have NDAs that go along with the hardware / firmware development platform.
That might be a roadblock to making this scope open source.

You may have to override everything on it and start from scratch. Would be a big project but divided amongst many hands may work out that's if the hardware is any good to begin with ;)

Yah it is going to be a big job.

Would take a few years to complete.

And they'll probably stop manufacturing it by then.

Writing open source software for hardware you have no control over, and isn't currently selling by the million? Might not have a happy ending.


« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 07:13:31 am by Fungus »
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2017, 06:44:06 am »
I am completely floored....
I cannot believe that scope was released in the messed shape it is in..
 :palm: :palm:

If OWON would release the scope for open source, I wonder if it would help their sales.
Considering what fw state the thing comes in, if the HW is half decent implementation, this could be an interesting combo.
I doubt they have the guts to do it, IP crap and everything.
That would be a daring move and could salvage the product.
There is a problem with that idea that needs to be mentioned.
Some FPGAs and other ICs have NDAs that go along with the hardware / firmware development platform.
That might be a roadblock to making this scope open source.

You may have to override everything on it and start from scratch. Would be a big project but divided amongst many hands may work out that's if the hardware is any good to begin with ;)
do we need an oscilloscope design content on the forum? just to help them design a better one.  :-//
do we Teach a oscilloscope manufacturer how to suck eggs.  ::)
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Online Brumby

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2017, 07:08:04 am »
They don't need any more teaching on that front - they suck pretty well as it is.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2017, 09:55:50 am »
That would be a daring move and could salvage the product.
There is a problem with that idea that needs to be mentioned.
Some FPGAs and other ICs have NDAs that go along with the hardware / firmware development platform.
That might be a roadblock to making this scope open source.

You may have to override everything on it and start from scratch. Would be a big project but divided amongst many hands may work out that's if the hardware is any good to begin with ;)

Yah it is going to be a big job.
Would take a few years to complete.

And they'll probably stop manufacturing it by then.

Writing open source software for hardware you have no control over, and isn't currently selling by the million? Might not have a happy ending.
I agree that writing oscilloscope firmware is a massive task. OTOH you can write it in a portable way so it can be easely ported to a new platform. After all the function and thus hardware from various DSOs is much the same (analog front-end, ADC, memory, processor, display and front panel).
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Offline Fungus

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2017, 11:14:18 am »
 

Offline max_torque

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2017, 01:50:22 pm »
Regarding the "push and hold" to turn the scope on, when it's battery powered that makes sense, to avoid those annoying accidental turn-ons during transit / handling etc, that leave you with a flat battery when you actually need it!!

  (they could of course sense the presence of the battery and enable a hold to start feature only in battery mode....)

Also, why, outside of some specific purposes (for example sampling a highly dynamic signal amplitude), does one want a high number of bits? Surely, on a normal scope, you manage with 'just' 8 bits because you have a selectable range input amplifier?  A high number of bit probably reduces the cost of the front end (as it can be simpler with less ranges) but to the average end user it brings no actual functional improvement does it??
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2017, 02:26:08 pm »
it must be the price that is the problem here  :-//
if this oscilloscope was $199 aliexpress special, I would buy it, with some free hi z 10kv open circuit silicone rubber test leads. :-DD

Hobby of evil genius      basic knowledge of electronics
 
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Offline EEngo

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2017, 08:58:04 pm »
I have the impression that the primary target for the scope might be schools or other teaching places. With vga and composite out, the multifunction design with sig gen, multimeter etc. is perhaps not really useful for 8h everyday work.

But for those, who need arguments for spending money for a new scope, why not?  ;)

btw: who uses vga out with scopes, except for teaching or demonstration purposes? I have always wondered with tek or lecroy what the use could be ...

ingo.
 

Offline maxwell3e10

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2017, 09:32:34 pm »
I have an earlier, 12 bit version, xds3062a. It works pretty well, battery power is useful for recording without introducing ground loops and 12 bit makes a difference in the noise level. It is one of the very few high resolution scopes and is a great deal at around $450 compared with a comparable data acquisition card.

Now "200 MHz" 14 bit is a big stretch since 14 bit is limited to 100 MHz sampling rate. Why pay for 200MHz front end if one is mostly getting the scope for its 14 bit resolution. Also, there is no point to the N-in-1 feature, this not an entry-level scope, so most anyone using it would have a function generator and a DMM. But if marketed right, this can be a great product.

It would be interesting to test the noise of the 14-bit ADC  and make sure the software for transferring data to computer works. High resolution is mostly useful for detailed analysis rather than just looking on the screen.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2017, 09:36:49 pm »
What would be great for scopes with many bits is to have a digital vertical zoom so you can look at low amplitude parts of a signal without overdriving the input. The same goes for input filtering (if the oscilloscope has this feature).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline BU508A

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2017, 06:27:40 am »
But for those, who need arguments for spending money for a new scope, why not?  ;)

Well, one can do this. If you want to buy a bad example for a scope.  ;D

Honestly, I do not trust these OWON things at all and I will only  "work" with them, when I'm forced to.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 05:22:29 am by BU508A »
“Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.”            - Terry Pratchett -
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2017, 01:27:14 am »
To their credit they have responded:

Quote
1. Package box shows 12-bits but actually 14-bits resolution on device label.

RE: Yes, it’s our package problem, we have start plan to change it.

2. Cymometer to imply for Frequency Counter

RE: Thanks for pointing out, we will revise the word.

3. Weird rear shape, unstable stand.

RE:

We design to XDS to be battery-operated, so a thin body can make it easy to

move around and spare more space on desktop for other device. Actually, it’s easy

to build a thick device but hard to make it thin.

?2?It looks unstable when you just push it by single finger. But on your

afterward operation, when you use your whole single palm to support on device

and touch function key, it’s stable.

?3?We are still testing on how to hold the thin device body without losing

stability like to expand stool size. Appreciate your comment.

4. RCA port issue

RE: AV port is to meet different customers’ requirement. It’s an optional port.

6. The design on horizontal menu line up with ext. trigger port.

RE: Yes, it’s our design problem, we’ll take your advice and re-consider how to

list it better. Thanks for comment.

7. Long booting time

RE: It’s an existing problem we are endeavor to solve.

8. Cannot press M knob to confirm and dismiss the menu. Have to wait until the menu

disappear or manually press menu-off button.

RE:Thanks for your comments, we’ll discuss to improve it.

9. Slow response for touch screen

RE: It’s a main issue for various oscilloscope manufacturer to study how to

improve touch screen experience these years. Tektronix, Keysight and R&amp;S

release their touch screen oscilloscope this year respectively. Touch screen could

help on specific function such as number input (virtual keyboard do exist as long

as you press the M knob when on value input item)

We are also studying how to make better customer experience for touch screen.

10. Single channel on 14-bit resolution, sample rates at 100MS/s.

RE: Yes, so it does. Limited by hardware, we could implement 1GS/s sample rate

only at 8-bits mode.

11. When switch from vector to dot display, the waveform still show as line, not by various

dots.

RE: It’s a true problem, we’ll fix it soon.

12.Color temperature function fails and absent of intensity control access.

RE: Yes, it’s our design problem, we’ll fix it in next firmware.

13. In decoding function, could not find out which channel to set.

RE:Decoding function is optional function, but the trigger function is in standard

set, so we place the channel setting in trigger menu. Of course, this is a bad idea

to put it there, we will revise it after then.
 
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2017, 01:30:49 am »
Summary: Firmware still early beta, please buy later.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2017, 09:05:45 am »
It's good they have responded - and extra brownie points for doing it point-by-point.

I wonder how much will be changed - and how quickly?
 

Offline bktemp

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2017, 09:12:10 am »
It sounds more like alpha version:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Alpha

A beta version should have all features implemented.

Maybe they weren't ready, but needed to launch it now, because of RTB2004 and other scopes with similar features that appeared earlier this year?


And they should really make the samplerates and resolutions more clear. Currently it is completely misleading:
On their page:
http://www.owon.com.hk/products_info.asp?ProID=182
XDS3202A, 200MHz, 1GS/s, 14 bits
-> No, it is not.

Under specifications:
XDS3202A, 200MHz, 1GS/s, 12 bits
-> According to their statement it is only 8bits at 1GS/s.

User manual, page 114:
Vertical Resolution (A/D), XDS3202A, 12 bits
Sample rate (real time), XDS3202(A), Single CH 2 GS/s
-> It doesn't seem so.

If they can't even get the most basic specs correct, I wouldn't trust this scope at all.
 

Offline fourtytwo42

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2017, 09:23:37 am »
It's good they have responded - and extra brownie points for doing it point-by-point.

I wonder how much will be changed - and how quickly?
I got a reply too regarding some firmware problems with a then new VDS1022I a year ago, since then silence and no new firmware so don't hold your breath on this one either!
 

Offline abraxa

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2017, 09:47:35 am »
Quote
1. Package box shows 12-bits but actually 14-bits resolution on device label.
RE: Yes, it’s our package problem, we have start plan to change it.
To me, this reads as if they initially only were doing 12-bit interpolation but someone said "if we can turn 8 bit ADC data into 12 bit, can't we also do 14 bit?", so the specs (and software) were changed but the device packaging was overlooked.

Quote
12 bit makes a difference in the noise level. It is one of the very few high resolution scopes and is a great deal at around $450 compared with a comparable data acquisition card.
If you get true 12 bit, sure. But I wouldn't trust this kind of company to either use a real 12-bit ADC or perform the required amount of oversampling to approximate them with an 8-bit ADC. Sure, the scope says it uses 12-bit values (and probably shows them as such) but how accurate are they?

It's even worse when claiming 14 bits of resolution when using an 8-bit ADC and not doing the required oversampling, which they are:
Quote
10. Single channel on 14-bit resolution, sample rates at 100MS/s.
RE: Yes, so it does. Limited by hardware, we could implement 1GS/s sample rate only at 8-bits mode.

So in essence, they use an 1GS/s 8-bit ADC and claim they can deliver 14 bits of resolution when performing 10x oversampling. However, that would only yield 1.5 additional bits, so they're lying. For an additional 6 bits of resolution, they'd have to perform 4096x oversampling. Quite the difference, I'd say.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 09:49:08 am by abraxa »
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2017, 11:06:54 am »
"3 We are still testing on how to hold the thin device body without losing stability like to expand stool size."

They're going to fill it up with what ? :o  Perhaps they could just release a much heavier version of the firmware.

"9. Slow response for touch screen
RE: It’s a main issue for various oscilloscope manufacturer to study how to improve touch screen experience these years."


Yep, it doesn't matter if the UI doesn't work properly, it's not as if the user is trying to concentrate on something else while they're using it.

Send it back.

And they should really make the samplerates and resolutions more clear. Currently it is completely misleading:

All the 'affordable' LOL, scope manufacturers are the same.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 11:08:31 am by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2017, 05:23:28 pm »
It's good they have responded
The issue is not so much the obvious problems, but the fact that they needed someone else to tell them.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2017, 07:00:33 pm »
So in essence, they use an 1GS/s 8-bit ADC and claim they can deliver 14 bits of resolution when performing 10x oversampling. However, that would only yield 1.5 additional bits, so they're lying. For an additional 6 bits of resolution, they'd have to perform 4096x oversampling. Quite the difference, I'd say.
That doesn't have to be the case. There are ADCs out there which offer higher resolution at lower speeds. Dave should do a teardown to see what is inside!
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2017, 11:37:26 pm »
So in essence, they use an 1GS/s 8-bit ADC and claim they can deliver 14 bits of resolution when performing 10x oversampling. However, that would only yield 1.5 additional bits, so they're lying. For an additional 6 bits of resolution, they'd have to perform 4096x oversampling. Quite the difference, I'd say.

No, I'm pretty sure they are using the Hittite HMCAD1520, a switchable 8/12/14 bit converter
http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/hmcad1520.pdf
The sample rate and bit specs match this chip precisely.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2017, 11:39:31 pm »
It's good they have responded
The issue is not so much the obvious problems, but the fact that they needed someone else to tell them.

Indeed.
And all those issues were found with me doing a single take 30 minute first impression straight out of the box playing around with no prep or test plan.
Trivial stuff.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2017, 01:14:42 am »
I'm not arguing that - I'm just saying that it was nice to get a detailed response.

The real question I have is why the heck they would send out such a unit in this state?  From their response to Dave, it would seem they were aware of a couple of the issues - issues that one would not expect to see in a product brought to market.

I get the feeling that they sent Dave a prototype for him to pick it apart and tell them what they need to change for it to become a better candidate for commercial release.  The free EEVblog consultancy, as it were.  However, I feel that there would be a lot more on the list if Dave sat down and did a solid review.

I wonder what else Dave might receive further down the track?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 01:17:47 am by Brumby »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2017, 10:51:38 am »
I get the feeling that they sent Dave a prototype for him to pick it apart and tell them what they need to change for it to become a better candidate for commercial release.  The free EEVblog consultancy, as it were. 

It's for sale:
http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Owon-XDS3202A.html
https://www.amazon.com/OWON-XDS3202A-Multi-Touch-Oscilloscope-resolution/dp/B01MXVNMFB
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OWON-XDS-XDS3202A-Measurement-200Mhz-1G-Storage-Oscilloscope-12-bits-ADC-40M-re-/222237318097
 

Offline sibeen

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #59 on: June 01, 2017, 01:40:17 pm »

It's for sale:


Jeez, Dave. Should you really have put it on ebay?

:)
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2017, 07:53:07 pm »
No, I'm pretty sure they are using the Hittite HMCAD1520, a switchable 8/12/14 bit converter
http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/hmcad1520.pdf
The sample rate and bit specs match this chip precisely.

$83/ea, not that bad. Surprised not many scopes have used it, it was released back in 2013.
Pico 5000 series has it (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-521-picoscope-5000-usb-oscilloscope-teardown/), retail is $1,000 USD, release 2013.
HMCAD1511 is in your 1054z and $46/ea.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2017, 06:40:53 am »
I get the feeling that they sent Dave a prototype for him to pick it apart and tell them what they need to change for it to become a better candidate for commercial release.  The free EEVblog consultancy, as it were. 

It's for sale:
http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Owon-XDS3202A.html
https://www.amazon.com/OWON-XDS3202A-Multi-Touch-Oscilloscope-resolution/dp/B01MXVNMFB
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OWON-XDS-XDS3202A-Measurement-200Mhz-1G-Storage-Oscilloscope-12-bits-ADC-40M-re-/222237318097

Oh dear.

Wonder what Rev 2 will be like?
 

Offline abraxa

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2017, 06:50:25 am »
So in essence, they use an 1GS/s 8-bit ADC and claim they can deliver 14 bits of resolution when performing 10x oversampling. However, that would only yield 1.5 additional bits, so they're lying. For an additional 6 bits of resolution, they'd have to perform 4096x oversampling. Quite the difference, I'd say.

No, I'm pretty sure they are using the Hittite HMCAD1520, a switchable 8/12/14 bit converter
http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/hmcad1520.pdf
The sample rate and bit specs match this chip precisely.
Interesting, I didn't know such ADCs existed. I take back the liar then and stand corrected.
 

Offline BU508A

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Re: New OWON 14bit XDS3202A Oscilloscope
« Reply #63 on: June 02, 2017, 09:15:04 pm »
Wonder what Rev 2 will be like?

You'll never know. And that is one of the reasons, I do not trust at all this kind of gear.
“Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.”            - Terry Pratchett -
 


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