Author Topic: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope  (Read 86083 times)

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Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #750 on: May 02, 2019, 08:43:19 am »
Hello,

Yes I know that. They told me the same thing when I planned to replace the fan on my DS1000Z and DS2000A.
So now, instead of paying the high price for full bw/option like I did before, I will hack the low end model, loose warranty and replace all I want  ;D
 

Offline TK

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #751 on: May 02, 2019, 10:41:38 am »
DS1000Z hack can be reversed and no warranty is voided
 

Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #752 on: May 02, 2019, 10:48:20 am »
Yes but good luck with the fan replacement and the warranty sticker
 

Offline TK

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #753 on: May 02, 2019, 11:09:10 am »
You said "hack and loose warranty and replace all I want" which is not true.  You can hack it and not loose warranty, making it less compelling to loose warranty because of a fan replacement.

If you don't care about the warranty, then it is a different story
 

Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #754 on: May 02, 2019, 12:32:09 pm »
I can't speak for Rigol but, in case of you hack option and/or bandwidth, If you are able to reverse the hack...no problem.
But what if it is not? I mean, If the oscilloscope does not start at all by hardware issue ? Maybe it's not so obvious.

I did not want to risk that on my previous model and pay what I have to pay but know it's a different story.
I didn't like the way they answered to my problem so....
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #755 on: May 02, 2019, 01:25:58 pm »
I can't speak for Rigol but, in case of you hack option and/or bandwidth, If you are able to reverse the hack...no problem.
But what if it is not? I mean, If the oscilloscope does not start at all by hardware issue ? Maybe it's not so obvious.

I'm not sure how pressing a sequence of buttons on the front panel validates a hardware warranty.

A warranty which they're required to provide by law in the EU.

 

Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #756 on: May 02, 2019, 04:24:19 pm »
I don't know why you are talking to me about something I don't care.
I will loose warranty because I will open the case to replace the fan.
And you will loose warranty too if you hack bw and or options. It is written in black in white on their warranty terms and conditions.

If you think they are abusive, good luck if you need it  :popcorn:
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #757 on: May 02, 2019, 07:29:35 pm »
Received RMA back from electro-meters. The display was definitely bad on the previous one.
Now there is almost no flicker/shimmer visible anywhere. There is still a tiny bit on the RIGOL logo, but only if you put your eye right up to the display.


I don't know why you are talking to me about something I don't care.
I will loose warranty because I will open the case to replace the fan.
And you will loose warranty too if you hack bw and or options. It is written in black in white on their warranty terms and conditions.

If you think they will spot the broken "warranty" tape and void your warranty, which is not allowed in many countries, then simply use many known methods to remove it without damaging it.

It can be written in black and white, but it does not mean their employees are bound by those terms. Personally I will not refuse warranty unless the customer has physically damaged the product. Or in very rare cases if they say obviously "hacked" the device and specifically due to that "hacking" process, the device was killed.

I'm not sure if they would refuse repair outright, or charge an hourly fee. The terms suggest the first I suppose.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 09:53:37 pm by thm_w »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #758 on: May 02, 2019, 07:35:46 pm »
Quote
And you will loose warranty too if you hack bw and or options.

Fortunately the hack can be "delete" without leaving any traces, the tape could be warmed up for flawless strip off….

Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #759 on: May 03, 2019, 09:10:56 am »
There are lots of things that are written in black in white but are abusive from the law's point of view.
I know that the hack will not use or destroy the hardware....but on paper, it is Rigol policy to void warranty in case of bw / option hack.
I don't know what is Rigol policy in real life but it's not obvious that the warranty works 100%.
If it depends on the goodwill of the maintenance center, it is not warranty, it is luck and there is a risk.

Don't forget that even if the hack is very easy, we have features that we normally have to pay for.
I don't have a scope on my desk to look pretty, so I will not fight with Rigol during 6 month because theirs terms and condition are abusive.
If I absolutely need a 350Mhz MSO with all software option with a warranty and a fast repair time, I have to pay for it and it seems rational to me.
Personally I don't find their terms so abusive, I will find understandable that Rigol refuses warranty while I benefit from services that I did not want to pay for.

I know that the hack can be erased. But only if the product can boot.
If the scope is bricked, I don't know how to clean the scope from the hack.

If one day my scope fails, I will obviously try to operate the device warranty.
But if Rigol refuse because of the hack, I will not cry, I will buy a new one.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #760 on: May 03, 2019, 09:52:28 am »
I know that the hack will not use or destroy the hardware....but on paper, it is Rigol policy to void warranty in case of bw / option hack.
I don't know what is Rigol policy in real life but it's not obvious that the warranty works 100%.

Do you have it "on paper"?

Where? I've never seen it.
 

Offline TopLoser

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #761 on: May 03, 2019, 09:55:05 am »
I know that the hack will not use or destroy the hardware....but on paper, it is Rigol policy to void warranty in case of bw / option hack.
I don't know what is Rigol policy in real life but it's not obvious that the warranty works 100%.

Do you have it "on paper"?

Where? I've never seen it.

https://www.rigolna.com/warranty/

(6) Unofficial Licenses are Installed
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #762 on: May 03, 2019, 10:01:13 am »
For the paranoid: Would it be possible to make a USB hack key that you leave in the rear USB port and automatically hacks the 'scope on power-up, without permanent changes?  :popcorn:

(seems unlikely, but...I'm not an expert here)

 

Online H.O

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #763 on: May 03, 2019, 10:41:49 am »
Quote
I know that the hack can be erased. But only if the product can boot.
If the scope is bricked, I don't know how to clean the scope from the hack.

If the scope is bricked and doesn't boot how would they know what licenses (payed for or not) are installed? Will they spend time trying to extract that information from memory of the device prior to fixing the scope or will they just replace the broken PCB and/or reload the software from scratch?

Of course there's always a risk but personally I wouldn't be too worried about it but to each their own.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #764 on: May 03, 2019, 11:22:56 am »
https://www.rigolna.com/warranty/

[The warranty is void if: ...]
(6) Unofficial Licenses are Installed

Interestingly, removal or cutting of the "warranty seal" sticker is not listed as a reason for losing the warranty. Unauthorized repairs are, and Rigol might argue that an opened sticker does indicate unauthorized repair. But following the letters of their warranty conditions, just having a look inside should be fine!   ;)
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #765 on: May 04, 2019, 09:37:19 am »
Hi,

After watching the digital filtering clip in another thread, I´d played again with the minimum cut-off frequency of the lowpass filter function.


1Mhz minimum


100khz


10khz


1khz

So reducing the recordlenght will decrease the minimum cut-off frequency, after playing some more with it, following results at a timebase of 500µs:

Mem-Depth:  Cutoff:


1kpts             1Khz

10kpts          10Khz

100kpts       100Khz

1Mpts            1Mhz

10Mpts          1Mhz

100Mpts        1Mhz

200Mpts        1Mhz

Seems "natural" or is it a bug...because have a look at the above mentioned rigol video at appx 1m22s:
Cut-off frequency is adjustable to 2.5khz - but the memdepth is 2.4Mpoints..... :-//
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 09:21:32 pm by Martin72 »
 

Offline offmar

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #766 on: May 04, 2019, 07:01:15 pm »
I wonder if the overshoot fix is the only thing changed in that firmware... Mine now shows version 03.01.01.04.04.

Now, If only somebody were to share their beta firmware file for the MSO5000, we would know  >:D

Sorry, I saw this a bit too late! I noticed in the other thread that you already have it.  :)
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #767 on: May 05, 2019, 02:55:53 pm »
From where did he have it....?

Offline offmar

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #768 on: May 06, 2019, 05:02:03 pm »
From where did he have it....?

I'm not sure. If you need it I could upload it somewhere.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #769 on: May 06, 2019, 09:01:01 pm »
I will think about it.
What the noisy fan concerns, I must perhaps send the scope to rigol - if they find a beta-version on it....
Otherwise the next official firmware-update is planned for june.
Hm-hm....

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #770 on: May 06, 2019, 09:03:19 pm »
I tried to replicate this but I can't get any math function to show on the screen at all.
Something simple like !A CH1, displays no trace at all (the math is enabled and math offset label is shown on the screen on the left side).


edit: always do a self-cal after upgrading your licenses. Seems there will be bugs if you don't do this (probably from the 2->4 channel upgrade).


I will think about it.
What the noisy fan concerns, I must perhaps send the scope to rigol - if they find a beta-version on it....
Otherwise the next official firmware-update is planned for june.
Hm-hm....

You can downgrade the firmware.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 09:41:45 pm by thm_w »
 

Offline rowifi

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #771 on: May 10, 2019, 07:40:51 am »
I had a loan Rigol 7000 a couple of months ago and it was riddled with bugs, locked up, would sometimes only part reload USB saved waveforms etc. It was junk.
However, I currently have a Rohde Schwarz RTB2004 on loan which is going back because it too has malfunctioning firmware in the History / Segmented memory option and logic capture display.
I'm wondering if there is any scope out there that has large extended memory (24M+), segmented memory that is sufficiently bug free without spending tens of thousands.
The Rigol 5000 is a cost effective option, but not if it is as bad as the 7000 was.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #772 on: May 10, 2019, 03:59:58 pm »
Hi,
If a defective can be ruled out, it could be fixed via firmware ( as long as rigol/r&s got knowledge about the issues and are wiling/able to fix it ).

By the way,

Seems "natural" or is it a bug...because have a look at the above mentioned rigol video at appx 1m22s:
Cut-off frequency is adjustable to 2.5khz - but the memdepth is 2.4Mpoints..... :-//

Seems to be a bug because today I could play with the DS1054Z and the minimum cut-off frequency remains the same, regardless of the memory-depth, it´s only changing when timebase was changing.







Offline timber23

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #773 on: May 11, 2019, 03:37:19 pm »
To Keep the hacking thread clean, I´ll carry on here.
Done the "upgrade" Thing, before I took a pic from the 70Mhz BW while the 40ps pulse-gen. was running:

I repeated the measurement with my scope. Here is the test setup:


Risetime:


Falltime:


I think the 750ps rise-/fall-time measured by Martin72 is valid.

Best regards
Timber23
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #774 on: May 11, 2019, 11:36:06 pm »
This scope is better as someone might think.


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