Author Topic: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope  (Read 67687 times)

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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #775 on: May 13, 2019, 06:39:46 am »
I think the 750ps rise-/fall-time measured by Martin72 is valid.

That's about 466MHz if my math isn't failing me.

Not a problem if you have 8GHz sample rate available.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #776 on: May 21, 2019, 03:45:15 am »
Hi,

Seems to be a bug because today I could play with the DS1054Z and the minimum cut-off frequency remains the same, regardless of the memory-depth, it´s only changing when timebase was changing.

Got the confirmation today, it´s a bug and known.
 
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Offline luma

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #777 on: May 30, 2019, 09:20:15 am »
Monkeying around w/ a Leo Bodnar pulse generator to check performance.  0.35/0.750ns works out to about 466MHz bandwidth.  Not bad!

 
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Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #778 on: May 30, 2019, 07:11:28 pm »
Ah, the second confirmation of my measurement, so it couldn´t be a coincidence anymore…
1st confirmation
.
.
.

After consulting with rigol, I´ll send my scope to them in mid of june for fixing the noisy fan issue (and probably the dim display issue too).
 

Offline imo

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #779 on: May 30, 2019, 08:17:11 pm »
FYI - I had a chance to sit for an hour in front of a MSO5074 yesterday (delivered 5days back).
Display - no problems, brightness ok with me, readability from left-right almost 140deg, also from 12hours ok, the bottom 6hour angle is smaller, however.
Fan - not noticeable with me during the work. Sat 1m off the box.
4x4m room, closed windows, a quite street, 2 persons inside talking and messing with SPI.
Disclaimer: I cannot judge on the functionality, I am not related to Rigol, I do not own Rigol's hw yet.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 08:20:51 pm by imo »
 

Offline hhappy1

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #780 on: May 30, 2019, 09:58:28 pm »
Hi~ sir.

Does anyone know of a 1.01 hardware difference?

My RIGOL is 1.00. and a different offset when self calibrated.

3ch At 10mv, dc gain is not within normal range.

When the same signal, the two channels are different.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 10:05:52 pm by hhappy1 »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #781 on: May 30, 2019, 11:18:41 pm »
Quote
Does anyone know of a 1.01 hardware difference?

A new Hardware-Version does exist ??
 

Offline TK

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #782 on: May 31, 2019, 06:03:27 am »
I decided to give the Rigol MSO5074 another chance

New scope seems to have a low noise fan and the display brightness is much better than previous one

I ran an SPI test comparing it to the Keysight EDUX1002G (DSO1102G):  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/impressive-keysight-1000x-series-(edux1002g-modded)-spi-triggering-rate/msg2449452/#msg2449452

Summary of test: STM32 nucleo board running @ 180MHz.  45MHz SPI clock.  The test outputs 50,000 full cycles of 8 frames from 1 byte to 8 bytes.  When a button is pressed, it sends a frame with 1 byte with value 0x3F.  Normally one of the 8 frames has byte value 0x37 in the same position.

I cannot make the Rigol to trigger more than 2,000 times/sec @ 1Mpts on SPI trigger mode of the 50,000 byte 0x37 being generated (per second) by the test board.

The test also generates a random byte 0x3F when a button is pressed, and the Rigol cannot detect it using MASK Test while triggering on byte 0x37.  The Keysight gets around 20-50% of the event, the Siglent SDS1104X-E none and the Rigol MSO5074 none.

EDIT: I was able to get 50,000 triggers per second on the Rigol MSO5074 by setting memory depth to auto (it uses 1Kpts).  And I also was able to catch the random byte 0x3F on the Rigol 100% of the time while triggering 50,000 times on 0x37 by using infinite persistence and also 25% using zone triggering.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 09:31:22 am by TK »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #783 on: May 31, 2019, 06:28:48 am »
Quote
New scope seems to have a low noise fan and the display brightness is much better than previous one

Ahhh….probably this will awaits me when my 5074 returns from the rigol service, nice.... :D

Quote
The Keysight gets around 20-50% of the event, the Siglent SDS1104X-E none and the Rigol MSO5074 none.

Probably you should use a specific hardware which can only decoding for this special case.
Decoding features on scopes are in my opinion the same league as doing FFT with it - Nice to have, in most cases useful, but not in every case/needing.
 

Offline TK

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #784 on: May 31, 2019, 06:40:03 am »
Probably you should use a specific hardware which can only decoding for this special case.
It is not a specific use case that I have, it is just a scope decoding benchmark I created and was able to test it on Keysight, Siglent, GWInstek, Micsig and now Rigol scopes.
 

Offline TK

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #785 on: May 31, 2019, 06:42:38 am »
Is there a separate forum thread where I can report bugs?

In search menu, if you go to set the threshold values, they are not considering the probe attenuation into account.  I have the probes set to 10X on CH1, CH2 and CH3 (SCK, CS and MOSI) and the values are @ 1X probe attenuation (i.e. 128mV on search menu, when it should be 1.28V)
 

Offline TK

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #786 on: May 31, 2019, 06:45:06 am »
Serial protocol triggering and search seem to be implemented independent of the decoding (display).  Even when the decoding is disabled, you can set trigger to SPI and do search on SPI as well.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #787 on: May 31, 2019, 07:00:05 am »
It is not a specific use case that I have, it is just a scope decoding benchmark I created and was able to test it on Keysight, Siglent, GWInstek, Micsig and now Rigol scopes.

It is a specific use case that most people would not encounter. We even get different results trying to measure the same thing.
Anyway, why are you using 1Mpt dept, why can't it be lower?

I've shown in your thread that 50,000 triggers per second with the Rigol is possible. It would also capture every unusual SPI event (about once per second).

Serial protocol triggering and search seem to be implemented independent of the decoding (display).  Even when the decoding is disabled, you can set trigger to SPI and do search on SPI as well.

Yes this seems to be the case that there is some processing done in HW and some in SW. So either Rigol has not had time to make use of the HW functionality yet, and it was easier to implement in SW, or there are limits to the HW (ie can trigger but can't store all the packets).
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 07:06:06 am by thm_w »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #788 on: May 31, 2019, 07:01:34 am »
Quote
It is not a specific use case that I have, it is just a scope decoding benchmark I created

When a benchmark is not a specific use, I wouldn´t know any another one.

Quote
Is there a separate forum thread where I can report bugs?

Yes there is one, but actual I can´t find it (modify this when found)
 

Offline TK

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #789 on: May 31, 2019, 07:29:21 am »
It is not a specific use case that I have, it is just a scope decoding benchmark I created and was able to test it on Keysight, Siglent, GWInstek, Micsig and now Rigol scopes.

It is a specific use case that most people would not encounter. We even get different results trying to measure the same thing.
Anyway, why are you using 1Mpt dept, why can't it be lower?

I've shown in your thread that 50,000 triggers per second with the Rigol is possible. It would also capture every unusual SPI event (about once per second).

Serial protocol triggering and search seem to be implemented independent of the decoding (display).  Even when the decoding is disabled, you can set trigger to SPI and do search on SPI as well.

Yes this seems to be the case that there is some processing done in HW and some in SW. So either Rigol has not had time to make use of the HW functionality yet, and it was easier to implement in SW, or there are limits to the HW (ie can trigger but can't store all the packets).
Setting Auto Mem Depth (1Kpts in this case) I can get 50,000 triggers per second.  I still cannot make Zone trigger to work with the random byte 0x3F
 

Offline Commodore8888

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #790 on: May 31, 2019, 07:43:56 am »
Ah, the second confirmation of my measurement, so it couldn´t be a coincidence anymore…
1st confirmation
.
.
.

After consulting with rigol, I´ll send my scope to them in mid of june for fixing the noisy fan issue (and probably the dim display issue too).

We'll see what Rigol USA says then about my launch 5074...

Worst case, it's a cheap scope and I'm not averse to blowing away the warranty  8)
(Granted, seeing as the warranty sticker on one of our work MSO7024s literally just fell off....can't imagine they can void warranty just over that. Case law supports that as well....

Unauth mods...well...that's legit void there LOL)
Mike D
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #791 on: May 31, 2019, 08:07:01 am »
Hi~ sir.
Does anyone know of a 1.01 hardware difference?
My RIGOL is 1.00. and a different offset when self calibrated.
3ch At 10mv, dc gain is not within normal range.
When the same signal, the two channels are different.

Did you let it warm up ~15min+ before starting self calibration, and all channels are disconnected? Try doing it again.

I don't see any offset issue if I set all channels to 10mV, and 4x average I get: -255uV, -550uV, -420uV, and -300uV. I see a slight difference between channel 1, 2 and channel 3, 4 in terms of vertical amplitude but its not very much. 1.460V vs 1.413V for example.

Hardware difference is not confirmed yet.

Setting Auto Mem Depth (1Kpts in this case) I can get 50,000 triggers per second.  I still cannot make Zone trigger to work with the random byte 0x3F

Not sure what the difference is. Maybe the byte I used was easier to trigger on?
Move the zone to an existing trace to make sure it works there, then move it back to the 'empty' space.
Also try turning on infinite persistence, to make sure you can see the random glitch byte show up on the screen.

edit: you seem to make things difficult for yourself, please see attached for: spi only trigger, spi + zone trigger.  Maybe you can update your thread if you are able to.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 08:37:51 am by thm_w »
 

Offline TK

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #792 on: May 31, 2019, 09:36:31 am »
I updated my post as I was able to get what I wanted from the Rigol MSO5074... 50,000 triggers per second and detect the random byte 0x3F on the MOSI line.

This is the 2nd MSO5074 I am testing and the UI is more responsive and the LCD is brighter than the previous unit.  I tested both units with the same firmware 1.1.04.04

I found a bug within minutes of using it, but usable... :-+  :-+

 

Offline hhappy1

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #793 on: May 31, 2019, 12:26:14 pm »
Hi~ sir.
Does anyone know of a 1.01 hardware difference?
My RIGOL is 1.00. and a different offset when self calibrated.
3ch At 10mv, dc gain is not within normal range.
When the same signal, the two channels are different.

Did you let it warm up ~15min+ before starting self calibration, and all channels are disconnected? Try doing it again.

I don't see any offset issue if I set all channels to 10mV, and 4x average I get: -255uV, -550uV, -420uV, and -300uV. I see a slight difference between channel 1, 2 and channel 3, 4 in terms of vertical amplitude but its not very much. 1.460V vs 1.413V for example.

Hardware difference is not confirmed yet.
--------------------------------------------------

Yes.

I tested it after 30 minutes and 1 hour.

I think calibration error is big.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 12:30:57 pm by hhappy1 »
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #794 on: June 01, 2019, 05:23:11 am »
Yes.

I tested it after 30 minutes and 1 hour.

I think calibration error is big.

You could wait for the next firmware as that includes some calibration changes (but not specifically for offsets I don't think).

Quote
DC Offset Accuracy <200 mV/div (±0.1 div ±2 mV ±1.5% of offset value)

Your CH3 has 2mV offset, so technically that is in spec.

Quote
DC Gain Accuracy[2] ± 3% of full scale

3% of 1V is 30mV. And your gain difference between CH1 and CH3 looks to be ~40mV? (measurement shows more but thats peak so not sure if it can be trusted). Probably significant enough to open a case with rigol support and see what they say.

You tried swapping probes between the two channels as well right?
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #795 on: June 01, 2019, 05:41:47 am »
This is the 2nd MSO5074 I am testing and the UI is more responsive [...] than the previous unit.  I tested both units with the same firmware 1.1.04.04

Hmm, are you sure about the difference in responsiveness? If it is real, and not due to a firmware change, wouldn't that imply a more substantial hardware revision (than just changing a few resistors for display brightness)?
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #796 on: June 01, 2019, 05:50:41 am »
This question makes me nervous…

See also :

Quote
Does anyone know of a 1.01 hardware difference?

 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #797 on: June 11, 2019, 10:05:52 am »
I'm not sure if this has been discussed already, but can someone explain how the spec works:

Quote
Vertical Resolution:  8 bits
Vertical Sensitivity Range[3]: 1 mV/div~10 V/div
Dynamic Range: ±5 div (8 bits)

Note[3]: 1 mV/div and 2 mV/div are a magnification of 4 mV/div setting. For vertical accuracy calculations, use full scale of 32 mV for 1 mV/div and 2 mV/div sensitivity setting

If you set acquisition to normal and scale to 500uV/div, then the smallest step seen is 66.6uV. Setting to Dots or Vectors doesn't make a difference. This would imply the screen is showing 66.6uV * 255 bit / 10 divisions = 1.7mV/div (I'm not implying its actually measuring it, just showing it).

This is even seen at the 1ns time base. But the smallest x deviation I see is 40-90ps. 8GS/s = 125ps per sample. So I can't see it averaging x-data to get an intermediate value, but it may be a consequence of sin(x)/x calculations? With high-res on the y-resolution increases, as expected.

In the screenshot below, its a bit confusing to me to see a bunch of samples at the same level, then a single 90ps positive deviation, then back to the same level. This is an odd coincidence that the ASIC can do 10Gs/s, which is 100ps. Is there any chance it is not running at 8GS/s, or are these just artifacts of various internal calculations?

edit: on the 500uV or 1mV/div settings, 20MHz bandwidth limit is automatically enabled.
2mV/div range the smallest y deviation is 133uV, and x same as before 60-90ps.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 10:26:08 am by thm_w »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #798 on: June 14, 2019, 05:59:15 am »
After consulting with rigol, I´ll send my scope to them in mid of june for fixing the noisy fan issue (and probably the dim display issue too).

Now it´s on it´s way...
 


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