Author Topic: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope  (Read 80889 times)

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Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #825 on: July 13, 2019, 09:57:38 am »
As I first asked, they told me, the priority lies on a poject which will be finishing soon, then they´ll go ahead with the FW.
And as I guessed, is it the 8000, the second answer came prompt and short : Yes, this is correct….. ;)

Quote
After tear down, i've done some additionnal pictures...

Warranty lost, but nice pics - and nice idea about the fan.
It makes me very curious, what they´ve done to my mso5....very curious and a few screws away...

Offline alexvg

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #826 on: July 13, 2019, 11:54:37 am »
The hack will void the warranty...
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #827 on: July 13, 2019, 01:02:50 pm »
You open it up, change the hardware - and warranty remains.
You modify the booting with all options including, everytime reversible - and warranty will void.
Interesting…

Online tv84

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #828 on: July 13, 2019, 02:32:42 pm »
Interesting…

It's called soft void. The other is hard void.  ;D
 

Offline alexvg

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #829 on: July 13, 2019, 03:37:12 pm »
1. After hacking the device, the warranty is void.
2. After opening the device, the warranty is void.
3. After modifying the device, the warranty is void.
I've done all 3.
Lot's of people have only done the first one.
(Using a non-Rigol MSO5000 Logic Analyser Probe will void the warranty ? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rpl1116-active-logic-probe-pod-for-1000z-series-teardown/ )

In case of warranty needs :
I could totaly restore the device hardware without beeing detected.
But I don't know if a firmware restoration could be possible without beeing detected.

My goal is to provide a better longevity to this device.
The low quality power supply capacitors and all temperatures too high weak the device and reduce its life.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 03:42:32 pm by alexvg »
 

Offline alexvg

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #830 on: July 13, 2019, 04:09:09 pm »
4-pins power supply connector
Code: [Select]
+7V_A ... Black
GND ..... not used
GND ..... Black
+9V ..... Green


6-pins power supply connector
Code: [Select]
+7V_B ... Black
-7V ..... Purple
GND ..... Blue
GND ..... Black
+5V ..... Yellow
+5V ..... Red

"+7V_A" and "+7V_B" are differents.
The 2 pins "+5V" are the same.
"+9V" is send to the fan throught a measured resistance of 36.5R

The rear panel without the original fan and its metal part.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 04:39:58 pm by alexvg »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #831 on: July 13, 2019, 07:00:41 pm »
Quote
But I don't know if a firmware restoration could be possible without beeing detected.



Hm-Hm...

Maybe this :

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-rigol-mso5000-tests-bugs-questions/msg2521134/#msg2521134

Have provide me....

Offline nimish

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #832 on: July 13, 2019, 09:39:08 pm »
1. After hacking the device, the warranty is void.
2. After opening the device, the warranty is void.
3. After modifying the device, the warranty is void.
I've done all 3.
Lot's of people have only done the first one.
(Using a non-Rigol MSO5000 Logic Analyser Probe will void the warranty ? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rpl1116-active-logic-probe-pod-for-1000z-series-teardown/ )

In case of warranty needs :
I could totaly restore the device hardware without beeing detected.
But I don't know if a firmware restoration could be possible without beeing detected.

My goal is to provide a better longevity to this device.
The low quality power supply capacitors and all temperatures too high weak the device and reduce its life.

FYI: Magnuson-Moss in the US prevents 1,2,3 from being used against you unless Rigol can prove your mods caused the issue.

Not that Rigol is whom you should go with for warranty support or support in general, but the law is on the consumer side here.
 
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Offline nimish

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #833 on: July 13, 2019, 09:41:25 pm »
Quote
But I don't know if a firmware restoration could be possible without beeing detected.



Hm-Hm...

Maybe this :

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-rigol-mso5000-tests-bugs-questions/msg2521134/#msg2521134

Have provide me....

Connecting a scope to the internet is a fantastically stupid idea, given that these products are not built by people with any real software experience. Just d/l the firmware and flash upgrade via a USB stick. I wouldn't be surprised if someone found a RCE vuln that could literally destroy the scope by messing with HW params set in software.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #834 on: July 13, 2019, 09:53:09 pm »
Quote
Connecting a scope to the internet is a fantastically stupid idea, given that these products are not built by people with any real software experience.

But obviously they did it.
Stupid People who could design a scope.

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #835 on: July 13, 2019, 11:48:23 pm »
Connecting a scope to the internet is a fantastically stupid idea, given that these products are not built by people with any real software experience. Just d/l the firmware and flash upgrade via a USB stick. I wouldn't be surprised if someone found a RCE vuln that could literally destroy the scope by messing with HW params set in software.
It's an IoT device, except that it's a precision instrument and over 1K euro. What could possibly go wrong?
 

Offline alexvg

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #836 on: July 14, 2019, 01:31:38 am »
FYI: Magnuson-Moss in the US prevents 1,2,3 from being used against you unless Rigol can prove your mods caused the issue.

Not that Rigol is whom you should go with for warranty support or support in general, but the law is on the consumer side here.

Thanks for these informations.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #837 on: July 14, 2019, 08:32:45 am »
Could you take a photo from the lcd-display, the backside ?

Offline alexvg

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #838 on: July 15, 2019, 06:51:18 am »
Could you take a photo from the lcd-display, the backside ?
I do not want to completely dismantle the device to take this photo.
 

Offline alexvg

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #839 on: July 15, 2019, 02:54:24 pm »
Here is the heat sources.


The airflow through LA connector is very hot due to high heat sources proximity.

The Rigol cooling system just stirs up the air.

update:
After restored the original cooling system... I'm trying multiple solutions to improve cooling without any success : too noisy or not enough efficient.
Original 80x80x25mm Sunon fan to mainboard.
Added 120x120x15 Noctua NF-A12x15 FLX fan to 9V from power supply

Results @ ambiant 25C
Right side of LA connector (hottest pin) : 50C
Hottest BNC (GI connector) : 38C

But noise is too high...







Now I'm going to reverse the flow of the original fan and do multiple tests...
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 03:36:12 pm by alexvg »
 

Offline alexvg

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #840 on: July 15, 2019, 09:36:29 pm »
I've just inverted the airflow of the 2 fans, the result is worst.
But if I had the skirt to the 80x80x25 Sunon fan, the result is very good : LA connector is 44C and BNC is 39C. Noise is a bit lower. Ambiant is 25C.
With the Sunon and Noctua at 9V, the Noise is higher but LA connector is 41C and BNC is 36C.

Conclusion : The original 80x80x25 Sunon fan is definitely not a good idea.

Now I'm going to test again the original configuration to have more temperature values.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 12:14:08 am by alexvg »
 
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Offline alexvg

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #841 on: July 16, 2019, 12:15:24 am »
I've finished doing all temperature measurements with original fan configuration...
 
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #842 on: July 16, 2019, 01:19:10 am »
68°C on those poor devices?!? Wow... Just... Wow...

The ADC at 51°C is at that level probably because of its surroundings
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline alexvg

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #843 on: July 16, 2019, 03:43:26 pm »
The hottest point (68C) seems to be voltage regulators :
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #844 on: July 16, 2019, 03:50:59 pm »
Quote
68°C on those poor devices?!?

Nothing uncommon for voltage regulators without explicit heatsinks.


Online rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #845 on: July 16, 2019, 06:09:14 pm »
Quote
68°C on those poor devices?!?

Nothing uncommon for voltage regulators without explicit heatsinks.
The temperature is terrible if the part is rated for commercial use at 70°C - something hard to see from the then published photo.

Voltage regulators don't carry "explicit heatsinks" but properly sized PCB ground planes soldered to their Thermal pads instead.

P.S. The part is a TPS7A33, which is rated for 125°C, so it is ok for the part itself, but still not great for the overall system due to the temperature differences caused between the channels. But I grant this is par for the course of such integrated device.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #846 on: July 16, 2019, 07:11:05 pm »
Where these measurements done using black non-reflective spots (black paper stickers for example)? Otherwise the temperatures will be way off due to reflections and different emissivities.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #847 on: July 16, 2019, 08:31:47 pm »
The temperature is terrible if the part is rated for commercial use at 70°C - something hard to see from the then published photo.

Voltage regulators don't carry "explicit heatsinks" but properly sized PCB ground planes soldered to their Thermal pads instead.

P.S. The part is a TPS7A33, which is rated for 125°C, so it is ok for the part itself, but still not great for the overall system due to the temperature differences caused between the channels. But I grant this is par for the course of such integrated device.

0 to 50C is the rated operating temperature.
43C over ambient so maybe 93C at 50C ambient.

TPS7A33 is rated 125C junction, but you have to take into account junction to case rating (30 C per Watt) as well.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #848 on: July 16, 2019, 09:18:03 pm »
Quote
Voltage regulators don't carry "explicit heatsinks" but properly sized PCB ground planes soldered to their Thermal pads instead.

Oh really, and I thought they´re hanging in the air.  ;)

Quote
Where these measurements done using black non-reflective spots (black paper stickers for example)? Otherwise the temperatures will be way off due to reflections and different emissivities.

I´m thinking about a "classical" measurement with K-Type sensors but at home I couldn´t measure more than 2 points at the same time.
At work we got a yokogawa 16-channel device..
By the way, my question about the decreased fan power and if they (rigol) got it in mind what heating up the enviroment concerns due to this wouldn´t be answered until now, very uncommon.

Quote
The Rigol cooling system just stirs up the air.

Yepp, today I got mine opening too to look what they´ve changed :

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso-5000-hardwaresoftware-revisions/msg2550510/#msg2550510

Offline alexvg

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #849 on: July 16, 2019, 09:31:34 pm »
I´m thinking about a "classical" measurement with K-Type sensors but at home I couldn´t measure more than 2 points at the same time.
At work we got a yokogawa 16-channel device..
I have multiple K-type thermocouples and I could measure 4 temperatures at once (with around 1-2C precision between them - I've checked 3 temperatures : -25C, ambiant and sun).
And the Flir could not be used... Dave already used Flir over the PCB.


By the way, my question about the decreased fan power and if they (rigol) got it in mind what heating up the enviroment concerns due to this wouldn´t be answered until now, very uncommon.
Quote
The Rigol cooling system just stirs up the air.
I think using this current (stir up the air) system will reduce the lifetime. Is it a choice or a drawback to a less-noisy device ?

Yepp, today I got mine opening too to look what they´ve changed :
I've got the same revision (I've removed properly the Rigol warranty sticker...).

I'm going to try a 90mm Noctua fan... I wish to propose a solution not requiring to remove the 4 rivets and the metal support of the fan.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 09:40:21 pm by alexvg »
 


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