EEVblog Electronics Community Forum

EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on November 09, 2018, 09:11:03 am

Title: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 09, 2018, 09:11:03 am
World Exclusive!
A teardown and quick look at the new low cost (ish) Rigol MSO5000 mixed signal oscilloscope, to be release on the 13th Nov.

How does it compare to the 7000 series scope just released 5 months ago?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5faiEUXbGg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5faiEUXbGg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on November 09, 2018, 09:12:43 am
Stop teasing us ...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 09, 2018, 09:12:55 am
And so it begins...

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on November 09, 2018, 09:38:24 am
I'm waiting for a black and fanless DS1054Z  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 09, 2018, 09:58:39 am
I'm waiting for a black and fanless DS1054Z  :-DD

Not this time.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on November 09, 2018, 10:02:57 am
Why such cruelty to us poor scope users. :( :( :( :(
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Qw3rtzuiop on November 09, 2018, 10:03:20 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9S7YdWE9cM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9S7YdWE9cM)


And here is the Quick Start Manual:
http://www.rigol.com/File/TechDoc/20181017/MSO5000_QuickGuide_EN&CN.pdf (http://www.rigol.com/File/TechDoc/20181017/MSO5000_QuickGuide_EN&CN.pdf)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on November 09, 2018, 10:08:14 am
woohoo! individual channel controls!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Qw3rtzuiop on November 09, 2018, 10:12:29 am
And they want to anounce another scope at the electronica "with bandwidths from 600 MHz to 2 GHz".

https://www.elektronikpraxis.vogel.de/vom-oszilloskop-bis-zum-funktionsgenerator-das-bietet-rigol-auf-der-electronica-a-773341/ (https://www.elektronikpraxis.vogel.de/vom-oszilloskop-bis-zum-funktionsgenerator-das-bietet-rigol-auf-der-electronica-a-773341/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: LapTop006 on November 09, 2018, 10:46:06 am
I'm waiting for a black and fanless DS1054Z  :-DD

What is it with TE vendors (well, Rigol & Keysight at least) doing everything in black now?

There's nothing wrong with black (typing this on a black Lenovo ThinkPad), but IMO most test gear seems to work better in white, or at least light colours.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on November 09, 2018, 10:48:10 am
White stuff gets really dirty really quickly. Black stuff you can't see it as bad.

Black ThinkPad here too which is really mucky but you can't see it :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: LapTop006 on November 09, 2018, 10:54:59 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7BwpwP1uw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7BwpwP1uw)

Purely SW upgradable from 70Mhz 2ch DSO, to 350Mhz 4ch MSO.

I think we've got a new licence hacking target.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on November 09, 2018, 11:08:16 am
I'm waiting for a black and fanless DS1054Z  :-DD

What is it with TE vendors (well, Rigol & Keysight at least) doing everything in black now?

There's nothing wrong with black (typing this on a black Lenovo ThinkPad), but IMO most test gear seems to work better in white, or at least light colours.

After (70) 80 - 90 Hewlet-Packard all have gone terrible. Today all looks like candy boxes and toys.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 09, 2018, 11:20:15 am
Launch date for the new series is November the 13th. The 2GHz scope won't be at Electronica or if so only for magazine.
The new series can be shipped within this year.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: timgiles on November 09, 2018, 11:42:59 am
Looking forward to this - is it a tear down and review?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 09, 2018, 12:34:17 pm
Ah so this is the world exclusive Dave mentioned a few days ago in one of his lab shift videos.

Looks like they went for the cheaper MSO connector than in the 7000 series.........budget model ?
Less memory too ?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 09, 2018, 12:55:18 pm
Ah so this is the world exclusive Dave mentioned a few days ago in one of his lab shift videos.

Looks like they went for the cheaper MSO connector than in the 7000 series.........budget model ?
Less memory too ?
2 ch models: buffer memory 100Mpts (100Mpts single channel, 25Mpts dual channel)
4 ch models: buffer memory 100Mpts (100Mpts single channel, 50Mpts dual channel (1/3 1/4 2/3 2/4) and 25Mpts all channels active)
all multiplied by 2 with memory extension
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on November 09, 2018, 02:46:58 pm
Looking good so far. I hope that the video wasn't sped up >:D
datasheet?
Decoders set?
Math and statistic capability?
Will it be able to display measurement trend? (trace from measurement)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 09, 2018, 02:56:38 pm
Looking good so far. I hope that the video wasn't sped up >:D
datasheet?
Decoders set?
Math and statistic capability?
Will it be able to display measurement trend? (trace from measurement)
very curious :) would be nice to wait till the 13th ... isn't it  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: imo on November 09, 2018, 05:53:27 pm
7000 and 5000 and none deep reviews..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on November 09, 2018, 08:56:18 pm
Surprising it comes so soon after the 7000. I think last time the DS4000 -> DS2000 series was a year or two no?

Also given that the cheapest DS7000 100MHz is $2700 USD, I'm thinking this will be a high price as well.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Old Printer on November 09, 2018, 09:07:18 pm
Noticed an HDMI port on the back just under the 1:00 mark. Still likely to be way out of the hobby ballpark.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: maginnovision on November 09, 2018, 09:07:58 pm
High sample rate but middle range for bandwidth I'm really not sure what they're going for. 7k is 500MHz, this is 350MHz, next is 200MHz 3k to replace 1054?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on November 09, 2018, 09:23:37 pm
I do not like this small font for automatic measurements. This was also on previously released Rigol scopes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 09, 2018, 09:42:13 pm
Well at least 'pulses' is spelled right this time... -ducks and runs-  >:D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 09, 2018, 09:42:36 pm
Noticed an HDMI port on the back just under the 1:00 mark. Still likely to be way out of the hobby ballpark.

Base model is 3 digits, just.
Fully optioned up, you probably don't want to know.
If the base model is hackable they won't be able to make them fast enough.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 09, 2018, 09:43:59 pm
High sample rate but middle range for bandwidth I'm really not sure what they're going for. 7k is 500MHz, this is 350MHz, next is 200MHz 3k to replace 1054?

It's high sample rate because they can with the new chips. It means at least 5 times over sampling with all channels on.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: maginnovision on November 09, 2018, 09:44:53 pm
Noticed an HDMI port on the back just under the 1:00 mark. Still likely to be way out of the hobby ballpark.

Base model is 3 digits, just.
Fully optioned up, you probably don't want to know.
If the base model is hackable they won't be able to make them fast enough.

If hackable I'll take two then.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 09, 2018, 09:45:04 pm
Well at least 'pulses' is spelled right this time... -ducks and runs-  >:D
I noticed that too.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 09, 2018, 10:09:31 pm
Noticed an HDMI port on the back just under the 1:00 mark. Still likely to be way out of the hobby ballpark.

Base model is 3 digits, just.
Fully optioned up, you probably don't want to know.
If the base model is hackable they won't be able to make them fast enough.
Dunno. At prices around $1k the hobby market gets much thinner and I don't see companies wanting to have a hacked oscilloscope. That is IF the firmware works which is something we don't know for the both the MSO5000 and MSO7000. The similary specced Siglent SDS2000X series doesn't seem to be a very big seller either.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on November 10, 2018, 03:17:20 am
it looks like it could be a step up from my old DPO2024.. I'm planning on updating that in the next year or so.  I was assuming I'd probably go for an MSO3k unit, but my  experience when I trying to get a quote on tek's USB VNA a few months ago has me reconsidering tek as the best general option.

the sample rate and waveform capture numbers look pretty amazing, and the basic analysis they showed looks good.. depending on the actual quality of the firmware and the details of the extra features, this is definitely on my list of alternatives to look into. "hackable" or not. (I'm guessing they won't make that mistake with this one!)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 10, 2018, 04:26:31 am
uBoot output:

Code: [Select]


U-Boot 2014.01.Rigolee.dirty (2018.06.12 - 12:12:01)

I2C:   ready
Memory: ECC disabled
DRAM:  448 MiB
DPU:   20170604
NAND:  OnDie ECC supported, 1024 MiB
zynq-In:    serial
zynq-Out:   serial
zynq-Err:   serial
Net:   Gem.e000b000
BootParam=0x0
Hit any key to stop autoboot:  0

NAND read: device 0 offset 0x4900000, size 0x3591fd
þ
NAND read: device 0 offset 0x4900000, size 0x8
 8 bytes read: OK

NAND read: device 0 offset 0x4500000, size 0x12c008
 1228808 bytes read: OK
Loading logo, x=310,y=247,width=404,height=89

NAND read: device 0 offset 0x5100000, size 0xd8ebf0
 14216176 bytes read: OK
 ## Loading kernel from FIT Image at 03000000 ...
   Using 'rootfs@1' configuration
   Trying 'kernel@1' kernel subimage
     Description:  Kerstrel Linux kernel
     Type:         Kernel Image
     Compression:  uncompressed
     Data Start:   0x030000f8
     Data Size:    3302448 Bytes = 3.1 MiB
     Architecture: ARM
     OS:           Linux
     Load Address: 0x00100000
     Entry Point:  0x00100000
     Hash algo:    sha1
     Hash value:   bece162e8cad943c68714d8eb8020d68e1db896b
   Verifying Hash Integrity ... sha1+ OK
 ## Loading ramdisk from FIT Image at 03000000 ...
   Using 'rootfs@1' configuration
   Trying 'ramdisk@1' ramdisk subimage
     Description:  kerstrel-Update-Ramdisk
     Type:         RAMDisk Image
     Compression:  gzip compressed
     Data Start:   0x03328c5c
     Data Size:    10901113 Bytes = 10.4 MiB
     Architecture: ARM
     OS:           Linux
     Load Address: unavailable
     Entry Point:  unavailable
     Hash algo:    sha1
     Hash value:   55bdcbebccba845da403130143793ee0135e53a1
   Verifying Hash Integrity ... sha1+ OK
 ## Loading fdt from FIT Image at 03000000 ...
   Using 'rootfs@1' configuration
   Trying 'fdt@1' fdt subimage
     Description:  Flattened Device Tree blob
     Type:         Flat Device Tree
     Compression:  uncompressed
     Data Start:   0x0332661c
     Data Size:    9597 Bytes = 9.4 KiB
     Architecture: ARM
     Hash algo:    sha1
     Hash value:   da2d17ba0d5a71b5897deec4cb026014f3132185
   Verifying Hash Integrity ... sha1+ OK
   Booting using the fdt blob at 0x332661c
   Loading Kernel Image ... OK
   Loading Ramdisk to 1b099000, end 1bafe679 ... OK
   Loading Device Tree to 1b093000, end 1b09857c ... OK

Starting kernel ...

Uncompressing Linux... done, booting the kernel.
Booting Linux on physical CPU 0x0
Linux version 3.12.0-xilinx (rigolee[member=167213]Jim[/member]) (gcc version 4.8.1 (Sourcery CodeBench Lite 2013.11-53) ) #43 SMP PREEMPT Sat Jul 28 12:14:01 CST 2018
CPU: ARMv7 Processor [413fc090] revision 0 (ARMv7), cr=18c5387d
CPU: PIPT / VIPT nonaliasing data cache, VIPT aliasing instruction cache
Machine: Xilinx Zynq Platform, model: Xilinx Zynq
Memory policy: Data cache writealloc
PERCPU: Embedded 8 pages/cpu @c09f1000 s8384 r8192 d16192 u32768
Built 1 zonelists in Zone order, mobility grouping on.  Total pages: 113792
Kernel command line: console=ttyPS0,115200 no_console_suspend, root=/dev/ram rw
PID hash table entries: 2048 (order: 1, 8192 bytes)
Dentry cache hash table entries: 65536 (order: 6, 262144 bytes)
Inode-cache hash table entries: 32768 (order: 5, 131072 bytes)
Memory: 437416K/458752K available (4197K kernel code, 255K rwdata, 1716K rodata, 176K init, 179K bss, 21336K reserved, 0K highmem)
Virtual kernel memory layout:
    vector  : 0xffff0000 - 0xffff1000   (   4 kB)
    fixmap  : 0xfff00000 - 0xfffe0000   ( 896 kB)
    vmalloc : 0xdc800000 - 0xff000000   ( 552 MB)
    lowmem  : 0xc0000000 - 0xdc000000   ( 448 MB)
    pkmap   : 0xbfe00000 - 0xc0000000   (   2 MB)
    modules : 0xbf000000 - 0xbfe00000   (  14 MB)
      .text : 0xc0008000 - 0xc05ce880   (5915 kB)
      .init : 0xc05cf000 - 0xc05fb0c0   ( 177 kB)
      .data : 0xc05fc000 - 0xc063bd78   ( 256 kB)
       .bss : 0xc063bd84 - 0xc06689a4   ( 180 kB)
Preemptible hierarchical RCU implementation.
        Dump stacks of tasks blocking RCU-preempt GP.
        RCU restricting CPUs from NR_CPUS=4 to nr_cpu_ids=2.
NR_IRQS:16 nr_irqs:16 16
ps7-slcr mapped to dc802000
Zynq clock init
sched_clock: 32 bits at 100 Hz, resolution 10000000ns, wraps every 4294967286ms
Console: colour dummy device 80x30
Calibrating delay loop... 1725.23 BogoMIPS (lpj=8626176)
pid_max: default: 32768 minimum: 301
Mount-cache hash table entries: 512
CPU: Testing write buffer coherency: ok
CPU0: thread -1, cpu 0, socket 0, mpidr 80000000
Setting up static identity map for 0xc03fa6b8 - 0xc03fa710
L310 cache controller enabled
l2x0: 8 ways, CACHE_ID 0x410000c8, AUX_CTRL 0x72360000, Cache size: 512 kB
CPU1: Booted secondary processor
CPU1: thread -1, cpu 1, socket 0, mpidr 80000001
Brought up 2 CPUs
SMP: Total of 2 processors activated.
CPU: All CPU(s) started in SVC mode.
devtmpfs: initialized
VFP support v0.3: implementor 41 architecture 3 part 30 variant 9 rev 4
regulator-dummy: no parameters
NET: Registered protocol family 16
DMA: preallocated 256 KiB pool for atomic coherent allocations
gpio->base_addr is:0xdc84e000
The gpio irq num is:52
zynq_gpio e000a000.ps7-gpio: gpio at 0xe000a000 mapped to 0xdc84e000
hw-breakpoint: found 5 (+1 reserved) breakpoint and 1 watchpoint registers.
hw-breakpoint: maximum watchpoint size is 4 bytes.
zynq_ocm f800c000.ps7-ocmc: ZYNQ OCM pool: 256 KiB @ 0xdc880000
bio: create slab <bio-0> at 0
vgaarb: loaded
SCSI subsystem initialized
usbcore: registered new interface driver usbfs
usbcore: registered new interface driver hub
usbcore: registered new device driver usb
pps_core: LinuxPPS API ver. 1 registered
pps_core: Software ver. 5.3.6 - Copyright 2005-2007 Rodolfo Giometti <giometti[member=183778]linux[/member].it>
PTP clock support registered
EDAC MC: Ver: 3.0.0
NET: Registered protocol family 2
TCP established hash table entries: 4096 (order: 3, 32768 bytes)
TCP bind hash table entries: 4096 (order: 3, 32768 bytes)
TCP: Hash tables configured (established 4096 bind 4096)
TCP: reno registered
UDP hash table entries: 256 (order: 1, 8192 bytes)
UDP-Lite hash table entries: 256 (order: 1, 8192 bytes)
NET: Registered protocol family 1
RPC: Registered named UNIX socket transport module.
RPC: Registered udp transport module.
RPC: Registered tcp transport module.
RPC: Registered tcp NFSv4.1 backchannel transport module.
Trying to unpack rootfs image as initramfs...
rootfs image is not initramfs (no cpio magic); looks like an initrd
Freeing initrd memory: 10644K (db099000 - dbafe000)
hw perfevents: enabled with ARMv7 Cortex-A9 PMU driver, 7 counters available
NTFS driver 2.1.30 [Flags: R/W].
msgmni has been set to 875
io scheduler noop registered
io scheduler deadline registered
io scheduler cfq registered (default)
DPU:Map vRam to 0xdca00000
DPU:Map iReg to 0xdcc00000
DPU:Ver=0x20170711
dma-pl330 f8003000.ps7-dma: unable to set the seg size
dma-pl330 f8003000.ps7-dma: Loaded driver for PL330 DMAC-2364208
dma-pl330 f8003000.ps7-dma:     DBUFF-128x8bytes Num_Chans-8 Num_Peri-4 Num_Events-16
e0000000.serial: ttyPS0 at MMIO 0xe0000000 (irq = 59, base_baud = 6249999) is a xuartps
console [ttyPS0] enabled
xuartps e0001000.serial: failed to get alias id, errno -19
e0001000.serial: ttyPS1 at MMIO 0xe0001000 (irq = 82, base_baud = 6249999) is a xuartps
brd: module loaded
loop: module loaded
xspips e0006000.ps7-spi: master is unqueued, this is deprecated
xspips e0006000.ps7-spi: at 0xE0006000 mapped to 0xDC858000, irq=58
libphy: XEMACPS mii bus: probed
xemacps e000b000.ps7-ethernet: pdev->id -1, baseaddr 0xe000b000, irq 54
ehci_hcd: USB 2.0 'Enhanced' Host Controller (EHCI) Driver
ehci-pci: EHCI PCI platform driver
ULPI transceiver vendor/product ID 0x0424/0x0009
ULPI integrity check: passed.
ULPI transceiver vendor/product ID 0x0424/0x0009
ULPI integrity check: passed.
xusbps-ehci xusbps-ehci.1: Xilinx PS USB EHCI Host Controller
xusbps-ehci xusbps-ehci.1: new USB bus registered, assigned bus number 1
xusbps-ehci xusbps-ehci.1: irq 76, io mem 0x00000000
xusbps-ehci xusbps-ehci.1: USB 2.0 started, EHCI 1.00
hub 1-0:1.0: USB hub found
hub 1-0:1.0: 1 port detected
usbcore: registered new interface driver usb-storage
mousedev: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice
i2c /dev entries driver
rtc-rx8010sj 0-0032: Update timer was detected
rtc-rx8010sj 0-0032: rtc core: registered rtc-rx8010sj as rtc0
input: Goodix-TS as /devices/virtual/input/input0
xi2cps e0004000.ps7-i2c: 90 kHz mmio e0004000 irq 57
zynq-edac f8006000.ps7-ddrc: ecc not enabled
sdhci: Secure Digital Host Controller Interface driver
sdhci: Copyright(c) Pierre Ossman
sdhci-pltfm: SDHCI platform and OF driver helper
usbcore: registered new interface driver usbhid
usbhid: USB HID core driver
ONFI param page 0 valid
ONFI flash detected
NAND device: Manufacturer ID: 0x2c, Chip ID: 0xd3 (Micron MT29F8G08ADADAH4), 1024MiB, page size: 2048, OOB size: 64
Bad block table found at page 524224, version 0x01
Bad block table found at page 524160, version 0x01
13 ofpart partitions found on MTD device pl353-nand
Creating 13 MTD partitions on "pl353-nand":
0x000000000000-0x000000040000 : "Env"
0x000000100000-0x000004100000 : "DATA"
0x000004100000-0x000004500000 : "Bmp"
0x000004500000-0x000004900000 : "Bmp1"
0x000004900000-0x000005100000 : "Bit1"
0x000005100000-0x000007100000 : "Sys1"
0x000007100000-0x00000d500000 : "App1"
0x00000d500000-0x00000d900000 : "Bmp2"
0x00000d900000-0x00000e100000 : "Bit2"
0x00000e100000-0x000010100000 : "Sys2"
0x000010100000-0x000016500000 : "App2"
0x000016500000-0x00001a800000 : "Reserved"
0x00001a800000-0x000040000000 : "User"
TCP: cubic registered
NET: Registered protocol family 17
Registering SWP/SWPB emulation handler
rtc-rx8010sj 0-0032: setting system clock to 2018-11-10 12:15:08 UTC (1541852108)
RAMDISK: gzip image found at block 0
VFS: Mounted root (ext2 filesystem) on device 1:0.
devtmpfs: mounted
Freeing unused kernel memory: 176K (c05cf000 - c05fb000)
Starting rcS...
++ Mounting filesystem
++ Setting up mdev
++ Starting ftp daemon
rcS Complete
<root@rigol>rpcbind: cannot create socket for udp6
rpcbind: cannot create socket for tcp6
2018-11-10 12:15:21: (log.c.166) server started
7 2048 16 2 "/dev/fb0"
Mount user space to:/user
default setting by user set
Rigol Device gadget: Rigol Device ready
usbcore: registered new interface driver usbtmc
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on November 10, 2018, 07:26:01 am
We always knew Rigol was dirty...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 10, 2018, 09:42:08 am
@Dave: since you have both the MSO7000 and MSO5000 could you pull some files from them for the noise comparison in this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-input-noise-comparison/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-input-noise-comparison/)

Forum member maxwell3e10 has created a nice collection of noise levels of various oscilloscopes and having the MSO5000 and MSO7000 added to it would be great (assuming maxwell3e10 is still willing to put in the work to create the graphs).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 10, 2018, 09:57:05 am
Noticed an HDMI port on the back just under the 1:00 mark. Still likely to be way out of the hobby ballpark.

Base model is 3 digits, just.
Fully optioned up, you probably don't want to know.
If the base model is hackable they won't be able to make them fast enough.
Dunno. At prices around $1k the hobby market gets much thinner and I don't see companies wanting to have a hacked oscilloscope. That is IF the firmware works which is something we don't know for the both the MSO5000 and MSO7000. The similary specced Siglent SDS2000X series doesn't seem to be a very big seller either.
I would say MSO7 (350/200MHz) Vs MSO5 (350/200) about half price.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 10, 2018, 11:25:45 am
I do not like this small font for automatic measurements. This was also on previously released Rigol scopes.

Previously released Rigol scopes have a setting for larger font.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on November 10, 2018, 09:46:27 pm
I wonder if Keysight is going to release a competitor for this Rigol. DSOX2000A series will be 8 years old in early 2019.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 06:48:25 am
@Dave: since you have both the MSO7000 and MSO5000 could you pull some files from them for the noise comparison in this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-input-noise-comparison/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-input-noise-comparison/)

Forum member maxwell3e10 has created a nice collection of noise levels of various oscilloscopes and having the MSO5000 and MSO7000 added to it would be great (assuming maxwell3e10 is still willing to put in the work to create the graphs).

Here you go:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxzjzidrofd9eli/Rigol5000-Noise.zip?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxzjzidrofd9eli/Rigol5000-Noise.zip?dl=0)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 08:17:01 am
World Exclusive!
A teardown and quick look at the new low cost (ish) Rigol MSO5000 mixed signal oscilloscope, to be release on the 13th Nov.

How does it compare to the 7000 series scope just released 5 months ago?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5faiEUXbGg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5faiEUXbGg)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: kripton2035 on November 11, 2018, 08:54:41 am
it will be a ***very*** interesting scope if you can hack the base model to the high model ... ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on November 11, 2018, 09:00:25 am
If the 2ch 70 MHz model can be hacked to a fully optioned 4ch 350 MHz with decoders then it will sell, other then that it's a dog at retail pricing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 11, 2018, 09:01:20 am
I agree, it's a pity he got a so early FW release. Next week the unit will be at the show Electronica in Munich and I will play with it a lot.
In the mean while units are in stock ready for November the 13th
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: hans on November 11, 2018, 09:02:44 am
Isn't that the reason why all Rigol scopes were interesting to begin with :box: After all, if you don't look at upgrades then Siglent and other manufacturers are often more competitive.

I'm not sure the numbering scheme makes sense. Feature-price wise this scope seems to follow up the 4000 series. It's too expensive to replace the 2000 series. But then it does cut down on some features that the 4000 series does have (like a 500MHz model), suggesting to me a "3000" series number would have been a better fit.

But perhaps they didn't want to undervalue their current line-up (in terms of marketing psychology), despite the pricing for a 4-ch 200MHz scope looking far more interesting.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 11, 2018, 09:08:23 am
Even if the difference on price of the MSO5072 and MSO5074 is small we expect the most requested models will be: MSO5072, MSO5104 and MSO5204.
350MHz BW is not very popular, if needed many move to the 500MHz.
So far I'm very impressed by the sampling rate, can't wait to run some test!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: kripton2035 on November 11, 2018, 09:22:00 am
mso5072 is $909, and mso5074 is $999
problem: the 4 channels options is at $399 !
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 11, 2018, 09:23:44 am
mso5072 is $909, and mso5074 is $999
problem: the 4 channels options is at $399 !
yes I know ... but I have this weird feeling
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 09:44:45 am
If the 2ch 70 MHz model can be hacked to a fully optioned 4ch 350 MHz with decoders then it will sell, other then that it's a dog at retail pricing.

It's actually quite competitive at the low end compared to the competition, I include a table at the end. Fully loaded though, no, it's poor value.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 09:45:20 am
mso5072 is $909, and mso5074 is $999
problem: the 4 channels options is at $399 !

Completely retarded pricing, why bother?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 09:46:42 am
350MHz BW is not very popular, if needed many move to the 500MHz.

I'm tempted to agree with that. If you really need 350MHz then you likely really need 350MHz, and you are in the 500M-1GHz class instruments.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 09:49:59 am
And here come the flood of Youtube comments saying this scope isn't even remotely "low cost" at $909, and is in fact way overpriced and un-affordable. From people with $1k iPhones in their pocket no doubt ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 11, 2018, 09:52:20 am
mso5072 is $909, and mso5074 is $999
problem: the 4 channels options is at $399 !

Completely retarded pricing, why bother?
schools and universities (education, not research) are still looking for 2 channels, I fully understand the very small price difference but they have to fight against budget and saving some dollars always helps.
then if the point is why Rigol has not set the price of the MSO5074 at 909 - this I don't know.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: NivagSwerdna on November 11, 2018, 10:01:28 am
And here come the flood of Youtube comments saying this scope isn't even remotely "low cost" at $909, and is in fact way overpriced and un-affordable. From people with $1k iPhones in their pocket no doubt ::)
No need to get arsey.  I have an android phone... and yes $909 is pushing it. As a hobbist up to $500 is more my budget.... might stretch to $700 if I keep my expenses quiet  ;) I have been looking for a 4CH scope for ages so maybe this will get discounted after a while and move it into my price range.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 10:19:12 am
And here come the flood of Youtube comments saying this scope isn't even remotely "low cost" at $909, and is in fact way overpriced and un-affordable. From people with $1k iPhones in their pocket no doubt ::)
No need to get arsey.

Yes, there is. I can't put "low cost" in the title without getting hammered for it.
Scopes under $1k have always been in the "low cost" category, starting with 20MHz dual channel analog scopes 30 years ago, and even before that.
A lot of people can't/don't read descriptions and go in with some bias that it's got to be under $300 or $400 or $500, or insert their own budget here.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Towger on November 11, 2018, 10:25:34 am
Dave,

In the start of your video it look like the top right part of the case does not fit together properly?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 10:29:07 am
In the start of your video it look like the top right part of the case does not fit together properly?

Looks fine to me, probably the camera angle.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 11, 2018, 10:35:21 am
350MHz BW is not very popular, if needed many move to the 500MHz.

I'm tempted to agree with that. If you really need 350MHz then you likely really need 350MHz, and you are in the 500M-1GHz class instruments.

Above 350MHz you need active probes, etc. I imagine that's why there's a 350MHz option - you can just about use ordinary probes there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 11, 2018, 10:38:22 am
Isn't that the reason why all Rigol scopes were interesting to begin with :box:

Yep.

A fully optioned DS1054Z would cost $1000+ - nobody would buy it.

For $350+riglol? It's a bargain.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: station240 on November 11, 2018, 10:38:55 am
Price list based on the list from Dave's video, and various bits of info from Rigol's website.
Yes the digital inputs are an option you have to pay extra for.

Code: [Select]
Rigol MSO5000
MSO5072 $909  2 channel, 70MHz
MSO5074 $999  4 channel, 70MHz
MSO5102 $1409 2 channel, 100MHz
MSO5104 $1499 4 channel, 100MHz
MSO5204 $2609 4 channel, 200MHz
MSO5304 $3999 4 channel, 300MHz

PLA2216 $399 Digital Logic Input cables

Software options
BND   $699 PWR, AWG all serial decode options

AWG   $269 Dual-channel 25 MHz Arbitrary Waveform Generator
COMP  $299 PC serial bus trigger and analysis (RS232/UART)
EMBD  $299 Embedded serial bus trigger and analysis (I2C, SPI)
AUTO  $299 serial bus trigger and analysis (CAN, LIN)
FLEX  $299 FlexRay serial bus trigger and analysis (FlexRay)
AUDIO $299 Audio serial bus trigger and analysis (I2S)
AERO  $299 MIL-STD-1553 serial bus trigger and analysis (MIL-STD-1553)
PWR   $299 Power Analysis. Ripple and Power Quality measurement.
RM    $299 Rack Mount kit
FPC   $79  Front Panel Cover

Lets say I decided to get what I need, and nothing else.
70MHZ 4 channels $999, digital inputs $399, AWG and two serial options (cheaper to get the bundle) $699.
total price US$2,097, looks even worse given the crap currency conversion to Australia Dollar.

Yeah low cost my butt.
Maybe the engineers see this as cheap, the hobbyists and people who have to justify expenses with the boss/wife see this for what it is.
It may be cheap for a 4 channel scope, but the addons are still silly pricing.

Now if they'd managed to actually include the digital inputs in the base price it's might be worth considering.
As it stands, it's much the same sort of pricing as usual, just less.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 11:09:58 am
Lets say I decided to get what I need, and nothing else.
70MHZ 4 channels $999, digital inputs $399, AWG and two serial options (cheaper to get the bundle) $699.
total price US$2,097, looks even worse given the crap currency conversion to Australia Dollar.

Yeah low cost my butt.
Maybe the engineers see this as cheap, the hobbyists and people who have to justify expenses with the boss/wife see this for what it is.

They didn't design it for the low end hobbyists, it's designed to compete against the 4-5 other competing 70-300MHz MSO models.
That's why they still sell the 1054Z.

Quote
It may be cheap for a 4 channel scope, but the addons are still silly pricing.

If all you want is a 4CH scope, then no, it's not cheap, it's twice the price of what you need to pay to get a 4CH scope.

Quote
Now if they'd managed to actually include the digital inputs in the base price it's might be worth considering.
As it stands, it's much the same sort of pricing as usual, just less.

Does every scope release have to be ground breaking on price and helping push the race to the bottom?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on November 11, 2018, 11:12:34 am
I think the price is quite reasonable. SME class business this is pocket change for equipment.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tocsa120ls on November 11, 2018, 12:05:04 pm
Yeah, the two channel one is a definite no-no.

As a side note, I finally fixed my 453A, thanks for the thumbs up, Dave  :-DD When the proper replacement parts arrive (I had to series two Z-diodes and piggyback an 5x20 onto an 6x32mm fuse) I'll write a short story in the Repair section.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: rjp on November 11, 2018, 12:09:42 pm
 To be fair to the whingers if these are low price then the usual rigol/siglent ones need to be called ultra mega low turbo :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on November 11, 2018, 02:04:41 pm
What is the real waveform update rate of MSO5000?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on November 11, 2018, 02:23:03 pm
This Rigol MSO5000 has a rather cheap internal metalwork. The PSU is not impressive. I still do not like CapXon capacitors.
Look at this scope from Hameg / Rohde&Schwarz. There is no durable metal case inside, but the PSU is well built. https://youtu.be/q_FBwu2K7j0?t=710
When this scope sits on your bench without impacts or so, it might last for ages.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 11, 2018, 03:20:54 pm
Online documentation:

Datasheet: https://www.instrumentcenter.se//50.0.1.0/5407/download_10374.php (https://www.instrumentcenter.se//50.0.1.0/5407/download_10374.php)

User Guide: https://www.instrumentcenter.se//50.0.1.0/5407/download_10375.php (https://www.instrumentcenter.se//50.0.1.0/5407/download_10375.php)

Programming Guide: https://www.instrumentcenter.se//50.0.1.0/5407/download_10376.php (https://www.instrumentcenter.se//50.0.1.0/5407/download_10376.php)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 11, 2018, 03:28:24 pm
To be fair to the whingers if these are low price then the usual rigol/siglent ones need to be called ultra mega low turbo :)
Sounds about right.

People also can't stop themselves from complaining when Keysight or Keithley calls a multimeter affordable.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 11, 2018, 03:33:20 pm
I still see lots of lags in the UI compared to Keysight
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 11, 2018, 05:49:46 pm
I wonder if the "free bundle option (https://www.rigolna.com/promos/)" will also apply for the MSO5000. Anyway, as usual, the pricing goes up much to steep for higher frequencies.
And, well, leaving out that auto-probe connectors is somewhat shabby (but the same with R&S RTB, Agilent DSOX2000 etc.).
I actually do like the black "color" (yeah, yeah, it's not really a color) though. One reason I like Lecroy ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 11, 2018, 05:56:00 pm
I wonder if the "free bundle option (https://www.rigolna.com/promos/)" will also apply for the MSO5000. Anyway, as usual, the pricing goes up much to steep for higher frequencies.
And, well, leaving out that auto-probe connectors is somewhat shabby (but the same with R&S RTB, Agilent DSOX2000 etc.).
I actually do like the black "color" (yeah, yeah, it's not really a color) though. One reason I like Lecroy ;)
LeCroy is now light grey with black badges :) lol
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: dr.diesel on November 11, 2018, 06:04:11 pm
Rigol did not support the 4000 or 6000 series, no reason to think they will here either.   :horse:

Obviously if hackable the value is superb, but otherwise I fail to see why anyone would purchase this.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: MrMobodies on November 11, 2018, 07:01:53 pm
uBoot output:

Code: [Select]
U-Boot 2014.01.Rigolee.dirty (2018.06.12 - 12:12:01)

Memory: ECC disabled
DRAM:  448 MiB
NAND:  OnDie ECC supported, 1024 MiB

zynq-edac f8006000.ps7-ddrc: ecc not enabled


Has that actually got ECC memory but they disabled it?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: johnlsenchak on November 11, 2018, 07:10:46 pm


I  like the thermal  compound  oozing  out , under  the heat sink  of   the  acquisition   integrated  circuit  8)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 11, 2018, 07:39:37 pm
Obviously if hackable the value is superb, but otherwise I fail to see why anyone would purchase this.

There's no reason they can't sell this for $999, let people hack it, still make a ton of money. AS Dave says, their only problem will be manufacturing enough of them.

If they're smart they could make it so it's easy to hack the bandwidth/serial decoders but not easy to hack the signal generator.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 11, 2018, 08:47:29 pm
Is it hackable?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: scopeman on November 11, 2018, 08:54:10 pm
woohoo! individual channel controls!

And a single (multiplexed) cursor control knob...wah..wah..wah.

Once you have them you will never go back.

Sam
W3OHM
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 11, 2018, 08:58:37 pm
Is it hackable?

Yes!

(we just don't know how easy it is, yet...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 11, 2018, 09:00:12 pm
woohoo! individual channel controls!

And a single (multiplexed) cursor control knob...wah..wah..wah.

Once you have them you will never go back.

It's touch screen though. Dave never seems to get used to using his finger for menu selections but I'm sure other people will.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 11, 2018, 09:48:02 pm
Above 350MHz you need active probes, etc. I imagine that's why there's a 350MHz option - you can just about use ordinary probes there.
That is nonsense. You can even build a DIY passive probe which goes to 1GHz for a few dollars worth of parts. And then there is Ebay with used probes and I'll probably be releasing a 'cheap' >1GHz differential probe soon.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 11, 2018, 10:21:47 pm
Above 350MHz you need active probes, etc. I imagine that's why there's a 350MHz option - you can just about use ordinary probes there.
That is nonsense. You can even build a DIY passive probe which goes to 1GHz for a few dollars worth of parts. And then there is Ebay with used probes and I'll probably be releasing a 'cheap' >1GHz differential probe soon.

I didn't say you can't. I only said you start to need active probes at about 350MHz.

...and in marketing land that implies a big price hike (the device is now "professional").

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 11, 2018, 10:23:15 pm
Oh and one more comment on the video... Dave... the MSO5000 has a friggin' touch screen! Use it! Don't use the select knob and buttons at the side of the screen.  :box:
OTOH it makes me wonder if the user interface has been really designed for a touch screen like the R&S RTB2000 / RTM3000 or that it is just a touch-enabled existing user interface.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 10:55:31 pm
If the 2ch 70 MHz model can be hacked to a fully optioned 4ch 350 MHz with decoders then it will sell, other then that it's a dog at retail pricing.

It's competitive with competing models at the low end, but absolutely not at the higher end.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 10:57:19 pm
uBoot output:

Code: [Select]
U-Boot 2014.01.Rigolee.dirty (2018.06.12 - 12:12:01)

Memory: ECC disabled
DRAM:  448 MiB
NAND:  OnDie ECC supported, 1024 MiB

zynq-edac f8006000.ps7-ddrc: ecc not enabled


Has that actually got ECC memory but they disabled it?

I greatly doubt they'd use ECC memory.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 11, 2018, 11:13:22 pm
Is it hackable?
Yes!   (we just don't know how easy it is, yet...)

To save people the time and trouble they should have just whacked a three way selector switch on the back with a few options.

1. Not hacked at all.
2. Hacked just a bit.
3. This thing is fully hacked.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 11, 2018, 11:38:16 pm
uBoot output:
Code: [Select]
U-Boot 2014.01.Rigolee.dirty (2018.06.12 - 12:12:01)

Memory: ECC disabled
DRAM:  448 MiB
NAND:  OnDie ECC supported, 1024 MiB

zynq-edac f8006000.ps7-ddrc: ecc not enabled


Has that actually got ECC memory but they disabled it?
I greatly doubt they'd use ECC memory.
No and no. Some NAND ROM memories have the ability to do the error correction on the chip itself (this has nothing to do with the DDR RAM memory). However you'd still need to take care of the bad block management in software. Most SoCs have a NAND controller which can do error detection & correction in hardware with a better software interface so it is easier to deal with. Doing the error correction entirely in software is also an option.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 12, 2018, 01:04:09 am
Is it hackable?

Yes!

(we just don't know how easy it is, yet...)


Who is best placed to do the hacking? Im sure that we could rustle up enough support to buy one to send it to the best rigol-hackery-shop we know?      I'd put in a $100 speculative to fund the entry level one, anyone else want to play?

Curious, if the 350Mhz bandwidth is just arbitoryly defined by software.



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on November 12, 2018, 03:35:39 am
If the 2ch 70 MHz model can be hacked to a fully optioned 4ch 350 MHz with decoders then it will sell, other then that it's a dog at retail pricing.

It's competitive with competing models at the low end, but absolutely not at the higher end.

Hah, you replied to my post twice now with the same message(more or less).

I dunno, $900 for a 70 MHz 2 ch scope still seems pretty blah to me. The fact that it needs heatsinks on the front end ASIC's is also pretty lame for a newly developed chip.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: blueskull on November 12, 2018, 04:18:39 am
I dunno, $900 for a 70 MHz 2 ch scope still seems pretty blah to me. The fact that it needs heatsinks on the front end ASIC's is also pretty lame for a newly developed chip.

The chip is capable of a few GHz. Think of the bias current required for that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on November 12, 2018, 04:29:57 am
I dunno, $900 for a 70 MHz 2 ch scope still seems pretty blah to me. The fact that it needs heatsinks on the front end ASIC's is also pretty lame for a newly developed chip.

The chip is capable of a few GHz. Think of the bias current required for that.

I guess it depends on how good it really is. 10 years old tech can build a front end chip good to 1.5 GHz + that has no heat sink at all.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: LapTop006 on November 12, 2018, 04:30:39 am
To save people the time and trouble they should have just whacked a three way selector switch on the back with a few options.

1. Not hacked at all.
2. Hacked just a bit.
3. This thing is fully hacked.

1. Nah, bro.
2. It's lit.
3. Absolute unit.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 12, 2018, 04:45:58 am
Well at least 'pulses' is spelled right this time... -ducks and runs-  >:D
I noticed that too.

Yep, this time Rigol went for "Threhold" — three times on the same screen. At least it's consistent, I suppose. ;D

(Free QA, as usual. You're welcome, Rigol.  >:D)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 12, 2018, 04:47:52 am
Well at least 'pulses' is spelled right this time... -ducks and runs-  >:D
I noticed that too.

Yep, this time Rigol went for "Threhold" — three times on the same screen. At least it's consistent, I suppose. ;D

(Free QA, as usual. You're welcome, Rigol.  >:D)
Pluses Threhold ?  :-//
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 12, 2018, 04:52:12 am
Maybe on the next model.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Bud on November 12, 2018, 05:15:39 am
Is it hackable?

Yes!

(we just don't know how easy it is, yet...)


Who is best placed to do the hacking? Im sure that we could rustle up enough support to buy one to send it to the best rigol-hackery-shop we know?      I'd put in a $100 speculative to fund the entry level one, anyone else want to play?

Curious, if the 350Mhz bandwidth is just arbitoryly defined by software.

Before hacking it needs to be checked for proper PLL functioning and power supplies oscillation.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Bud on November 12, 2018, 05:17:18 am
White stuff gets really dirty really quickly. Black stuff you can't see it as bad.

Black ThinkPad here too which is really mucky but you can't see it :)

You guys do not understand, it is all about diversity. The next model will be Pink.
Or Rainbow.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Brumby on November 12, 2018, 05:23:12 am
Nah .... Just wait.  They'll have programmable colours you can set up in software.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ResistorRob on November 12, 2018, 05:58:20 am
His "World Exclusive" actually wasn't. Batterfly uploaded a hands-on video a couple days before he did  ;D
Dave never went back and did a review on the Siglent 1104X-e like he promised in the teardown video, so I was very happy this time he actually included a quick demonstration within the video.  As an aside I was reading the comments on this video and most are overwhelming complaints about looks and price.
I think is a great scope for the money, and love the way it looks, so don't understand all the people bashing it. The only real negative I see is I wish the screen was brighter. Like Dave said in his video it appears bright but actually isn't. In the Batterfly video you can see the screen is dimmer than what you would hope for.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 12, 2018, 06:59:39 am
OK, not about looks and price from the short demo? Well, the interface is laggy. It's got Rigol's famous, but different this time, spelling errors. Also, I hate the rectangular grid. The screen is wide, but instead of providing more horizontal divisions for looking at signals, they stretched them out to fill the space.
Title: As soon as hack is confirmed
Post by: ebclr on November 12, 2018, 07:10:25 am
I will buy one, Otherwise money will remain on bank
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Circlotron on November 12, 2018, 07:40:13 am
No hi-res mode? Show stopper for me.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 12, 2018, 09:09:10 am
OMG !!! Should I open one now? I will be fired lol
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 12, 2018, 09:18:10 am
OMG !!! Should I open one now? I will be fired lol

Show us another photo at the end of the month and we'll see how well it sells  ;D
I've heard the 7000 has been a really tough sell
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 12, 2018, 09:23:08 am
OMG !!! Should I open one now? I will be fired lol

Show us another photo at the end of the month and we'll see how well it sells  ;D
I've heard the 7000 has been a really tough sell
ahahah I almost spit my coffee while reading :)
someone will be gone, they or me ... better them  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 12, 2018, 10:43:22 am
OMG !!! Should I open one now? I will be fired lol

What versions are they? Low end, high end? Do you unlock them on demand?

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 12, 2018, 10:45:01 am
OMG !!! Should I open one now? I will be fired lol

What versions are they? Low end, high end? Do you unlock them on demand?
they are all models in the mix. yes we also took the 2 channels   :-DD
just for more info, logic probe and front cover panel are not available yet.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: timgiles on November 12, 2018, 11:15:43 am
Whats wrong with a passive heatsink per channel?

If it was placed because its needed - then what negative effect is it going to have?

I would rather than my electronics well cooled than have random lockups.


If the 2ch 70 MHz model can be hacked to a fully optioned 4ch 350 MHz with decoders then it will sell, other then that it's a dog at retail pricing.

It's competitive with competing models at the low end, but absolutely not at the higher end.

Hah, you replied to my post twice now with the same message(more or less).

I dunno, $900 for a 70 MHz 2 ch scope still seems pretty blah to me. The fact that it needs heatsinks on the front end ASIC's is also pretty lame for a newly developed chip.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 12, 2018, 12:57:18 pm
OMG !!! Should I open one now? I will be fired lol
Find the one in the picture which should have been delivered to Australia  >:D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 12, 2018, 01:54:04 pm
With the flexibility of software updates it seems crazy that manufacturers are still shipping physically different boxes.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ali_asadzadeh on November 12, 2018, 02:27:36 pm
Dave ask them for free giveaways for this from. ^-^ ^-^ ^-^
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 12, 2018, 02:32:24 pm
Dave ask them for free giveaways for this from. ^-^ ^-^ ^-^
Dave got the scope from a friend (loan), not Rigol... so I guess no give away this time
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 12, 2018, 02:52:39 pm
With the flexibility of software updates it seems crazy that manufacturers are still shipping physically different boxes.

Why? It's what customers expect.

(ie. It works right out of the box and has the correct sticker on it)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 12, 2018, 02:54:27 pm
I've heard the 7000 has been a really tough sell

It's expensive. People who are used to paying those prices are used to other brands.

The DS1054Z entered a mostly-new market where people don't have so much brand-bias.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 12, 2018, 03:01:39 pm
Oh and one more comment on the video... Dave... the MSO5000 has a friggin' touch screen! Use it! Don't use the select knob and buttons at the side of the screen.  :box:

Yep, If Dave wants to do a review it should contain that sort of thing. Use the touch screen, connect up an HDMI monitor, use the remote web interface, etc.

ie. The stuff that would distinguish it from other 'scopes in that price range.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 12, 2018, 03:02:58 pm
With the flexibility of software updates it seems crazy that manufacturers are still shipping physically different boxes.

Why? It's what customers expect.

(ie. It works right out of the box and has the correct sticker on it)
I doubt many customers would have a big proiblem with that.
Or it could be done by the dealer, instead of having to stock lots of options.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: NivagSwerdna on November 12, 2018, 03:12:24 pm
https://www.instrumentcenter.se/sv/50-150-mhz-bandbredd/rigol-mso5074-blandsignalsoscilloskop-70-mhz-8-gsas-200-mpts-4-analoga-16-digitala-kanaler-7-instrument-i-1.php (https://www.instrumentcenter.se/sv/50-150-mhz-bandbredd/rigol-mso5074-blandsignalsoscilloskop-70-mhz-8-gsas-200-mpts-4-analoga-16-digitala-kanaler-7-instrument-i-1.php)

So the Digital breakout is around another 30%

So how does that compare?  If it is hackable to say 100MHz and is then CH4 + 16 digital channels... What is the competition at that level?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 12, 2018, 03:58:04 pm
I opened one unit to shoot an unboxing video. It looks really nice, the mat black fits good. Pretty heavy unit.
Booting time is decent, navigation between functions and menu is pretty fast.
No time to test it more since I have to leave the office and travel to Munich for the show, when back will do some more videos also back to back with R&S RTB2000.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nixfu on November 12, 2018, 04:06:14 pm
No Hack == No Sale to the hobbyist market.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 12, 2018, 04:37:20 pm
No Hack == No Sale to the hobbyist market.
To be fair and without making comparison right now, this is probably not true.
Many RTB2000 and SDS2000X have been sold to private/hobby users.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 12, 2018, 04:42:03 pm
With the flexibility of software updates it seems crazy that manufacturers are still shipping physically different boxes.
Why? It's what customers expect.

(ie. It works right out of the box and has the correct sticker on it)
I doubt many customers would have a big proiblem with that.
Or it could be done by the dealer, instead of having to stock lots of options.
In my experience it is a hassle having to install license keys. Small distributors like the ones for B-brands are typically not setup to deal with spreading licenses.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 12, 2018, 04:44:51 pm
With the flexibility of software updates it seems crazy that manufacturers are still shipping physically different boxes.
Why? It's what customers expect.

(ie. It works right out of the box and has the correct sticker on it)
I doubt many customers would have a big proiblem with that.
Or it could be done by the dealer, instead of having to stock lots of options.
In my experience it is a hassle having to install license keys. Small distributors like the ones for B-brands are typically not setup to deal with spreading licenses.
Even if it means lower cost, as the manufacture & supply chain doesn't need to deal with all the different version ?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: supercilious on November 12, 2018, 04:46:02 pm
I would wait to see if Rigol commit to fix issues that crop up in the firmware before committing that kind of money, even for the base model. They completely abandoned the 4000 scopes and they left the 2000 series abandoned for ages before eventually patching some stuff.  |O

Who knows how they'll treat this one.  :-//
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: cpuerror on November 12, 2018, 04:48:31 pm
Rigol isn't interested in the hobby market with this model, they are trying to aim for Keysight's and Tek's throats.. Keyword is trying. The hardware seems very good and the scope functionality has always delivered with Rigol although its too early to tell for sure. What is killing Rigol is the lack of industrial design and pricing. The layout of the 5000, while nowhere near as bad as the hatchet job they did on 7000, still looks like it was just slapped together by an engineer and meant to go to an industrial designer to actually make it look and function well but they decided to go to production. The 7000 and partly the 5000 reek of an incomplete design rushed to production.

The other thing is taking a page of out Tek's play book and charging a small fortune for every little feature. If the 70Mhz and 350Mhz versions are essentially the same hardware, why is the price difference thousands? If Rigol wants to take a good stab at the old giants, they need to fix their design process and then do a massive undercut. Also, drop the loser 70Mhz version for a scope of this class. For the time being, they simply can't compete on a purely product basis while they have some fool choosing 5 different fonts for the front panel and other things that turn off customers.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on November 12, 2018, 06:22:31 pm
Keyword is trying.
Yes, and what would help to recoup some of that R&D money is to sell the same chipset to a lot of people fast -> hobby market :)

I would definitely upgrade from 1054 provided the hacks  are in place. I wold even accept their stupid industrial design. Without hacks, the value is not there at all. For the price of a well upgraded Rigol scope, there are a lot of options out there that are more attractive.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: imo on November 12, 2018, 06:22:58 pm
MSO5074 $999 fully hacked will be the winner in 2019.. They will sell it [Edit: kilo-]tons per day..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: blueskull on November 12, 2018, 06:44:55 pm
The one thing that I don't understand the most is the lack of 50R input. Say, you have an 8Gsps scope with custom ADC, custom ASIC and custom AFE. All are very nicely done and if it's hackable, for $999.
It looks super attractive, but the 50R killed it.
Has anyone ever measured more than 200MHz without 50R? Sure, a good 1MR 10x or 100x probe can do it, but it comes with excessive capacitive loading on probe point, as well as signal quality issues due to the lossy coax (limits slew rate) and the ground loop (limits flatness).

And FFS, give us the smart probe interface. It costs nothing -- you already have the hexagonal probe socket, just add a few pins for power and I2C. Even a passive resistive smart probe interface for 10x/100x/1x/50R identification is better than nothing.
The same rant goes to Keysight DSOX2000 series too.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Pinkus on November 12, 2018, 06:53:13 pm
MSO5074 $999 fully hacked will be the winner in 2019.. They will sell it [Edit: kilo-]tons per day..
If they have to decide between selling 100.000 scopes for $100 profit each or only 5.000 units with $3.000 profit each, guess what they will do.
And then, IF after a year sales is dropping, they can still leak some hacking information to sell another 50.000 units for $100 profit each.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on November 12, 2018, 06:58:09 pm
And then, IF after a year sales is dropping, they can still leak some hacking information to sell another 50.000 units for $100 profit each.
That assumes that competition does nothing. It is good that they think they can play with the big guys, but by all signs they are deeply mistaken. We'll see how it turns out.

I doubt anyone will go back to Rigol once they try R&S.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 12, 2018, 07:12:55 pm
MSO5074 $999 fully hacked will be the winner in 2019.. They will sell it [Edit: kilo-]tons per day..
A better deal would be MSO5072 $909 fully hacked (remember you can enable 4 channels with software license)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 12, 2018, 07:25:02 pm
And then, IF after a year sales is dropping, they can still leak some hacking information to sell another 50.000 units for $100 profit each.
That assumes that competition does nothing. It is good that they think they can play with the big guys, but by all signs they are deeply mistaken. We'll see how it turns out.

I doubt anyone will go back to Rigol once they try R&S.

There a few thing Rigol missed. Hires etc.. Platform is few months old, so lots of debugging needs to be done.. But, it has craploads of sampling mem, it's hardware accelerated decodes and FFT, it can have 4 decodes at the same time...  Stupid 15000 € R&S RTM3000 doesn't even have search on I2C and SPI, and no search on 400 Ms of segmented memory. Talk about premium product.
Rigol 5000 pricing is crazy for now, but they will drop it if it doesn't sell..
And if you compare ds5000 to Keysight 2000 ...  If they make it stable enough, for MSO it could be very useful. Even for a bit more than 999 USD.

But at this point it is kinda funny product, together with DS7000 platform. No hires, no custom math (math is identical to DS1000Z right now), and no search or analysis on segmented memory.
If they add those, than it would be very interesting...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 12, 2018, 07:53:59 pm
Has anyone ever measured more than 200MHz without 50R? Sure, a good 1MR 10x or 100x probe can do it, but it comes with excessive capacitive loading on probe point, as well as signal quality issues due to the lossy coax (limits slew rate) and the ground loop (limits flatness).

I have gone up to 350MHz when either probing a terminated 50 ohm transmission line, which is how probe bandwidth is specified, and when using an inline coaxial to probe tip adapter but that presents the same 25 ohm source impedance.  500MHz is feasible under these conditions but I do not have an oscilloscope with high impedance inputs which is that fast.

An example of this is impromptu TDR measurements.  Some low-z digital logic also presents a 25 ohm or lower impedance and can be measured this way. (1)

A high-z passive probe under these conditions lacks the performance of a low-z probe but can tolerate greater overload.

(1) In some cases a special low-z "offset" probe is needed to make these measurements without upsetting the bias conditions but a high-z passive probe can do it without problems.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 12, 2018, 07:59:36 pm
50Ohm feedthrough resistors should be good to 500MHz or so. Did some measurements of a 20MHz (square wave) LVDS signals with (cheap) differential probes on a 600MHz Lecroy lately where I used feedthrough resistors instead of switching the inputs to 50Ohm (mainly since I was scared to forget to switch back to 1MOhm and then someone else could damage the inputs by applying >12V or so). Worked pretty well indeed.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 12, 2018, 08:15:26 pm
Looks like Keysight is releasing 4 channel 1000X series scopes:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/4-channel-keysight-1000x-series-scope/msg1957309/#msg1957309 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/4-channel-keysight-1000x-series-scope/msg1957309/#msg1957309)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on November 12, 2018, 08:32:10 pm
This is not confirmed yet. https://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-2759552/infiniivision-1000-x-series-oscilloscopes?nid=-32110.0&cc=CZ&lc=eng (https://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-2759552/infiniivision-1000-x-series-oscilloscopes?nid=-32110.0&cc=CZ&lc=eng)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 12, 2018, 08:35:24 pm
The one thing that I don't understand the most is the lack of 50R input. Say, you have an 8Gsps scope with custom ADC, custom ASIC and custom AFE. All are very nicely done and if it's hackable, for $999.
It looks super attractive, but the 50R killed it.
Are you serious? No 50 Ohm input mode on a 350MHz scope?  :wtf:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 12, 2018, 08:39:18 pm
Looks like Keysight is releasing 4 channel 1000X series scopes:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/4-channel-keysight-1000x-series-scope/msg1957309/#msg1957309 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/4-channel-keysight-1000x-series-scope/msg1957309/#msg1957309)
Do you mean the 4ch version of the existing 2ch? That would be interesting since they sold none of the 2ch...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: supercilious on November 12, 2018, 08:43:42 pm
Are you serious? No 50 Ohm input mode on a 350MHz scope?  :wtf:

Theres no 50ohm on the R&S RTB2004 scopes either! I think that external feed-through terminators are okay up to ~300MHz, so its not a big deal here IMO.
Obviously on a 500Mhz+ scope its a deal-breaker though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 12, 2018, 08:54:21 pm
Looks like Keysight is releasing 4 channel 1000X series scopes:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/4-channel-keysight-1000x-series-scope/msg1957309/#msg1957309 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/4-channel-keysight-1000x-series-scope/msg1957309/#msg1957309)
Do you mean the 4ch version of the existing 2ch? That would be interesting since they sold none of the 2ch...
You wish... I bought one
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on November 12, 2018, 08:56:57 pm
Maybe we've just got to wait a year for the "MSO5000A" to appear on the scene, this time with 50Ohms mode and possibly probe power/sensing. The missing high res mode on both DS7000 and MSO5000 makes me wonder if Rigol "forgot" (or deemed it unneccessary) to implement the boxcar averager in their ASIC? If that's missing and the ASIC lacks the configurability of an FPGA, it will stay missing for the product life...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: imo on November 12, 2018, 09:19:14 pm
MSO5074 $999 fully hacked will be the winner in 2019.. They will sell it [Edit: kilo-]tons per day..
If they have to decide between selling 100.000 scopes for $100 profit each or only 5.000 units with $3.000 profit each, guess what they will do.
And then, IF after a year sales is dropping, they can still leak some hacking information to sell another 50.000 units for $100 profit each.
Rigol does $300-$350 profit per unit, I bet. With 300k (my guess) 5072' $909 (fully hacked) units sold in 2019 Rigol will do aprox $210mil revenue and aprox $100mil profit. With $2.7b global o'scopes market in 2019 I would be happy with such a result :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 12, 2018, 09:55:41 pm
Maybe we've just got to wait a year for the "MSO5000A" to appear on the scene, this time with 50Ohms mode and possibly probe power/sensing. The missing high res mode on both DS7000 and MSO5000 makes me wonder if Rigol "forgot" (or deemed it unneccessary) to implement the boxcar averager in their ASIC? If that's missing and the ASIC lacks the configurability of an FPGA, it will stay missing for the product life...

That is exactly why i'm cautious about it. It is unclear at this point what of the shortcomings are hardcoded and what can be "fixed" or "upgraded" later.
I know they can add better math and search later.
I don't think they will be adding 50 Ohms to 5000 series. Apart from a bit more memory, 500MHz,  50 Ohm and active probe interface, 5000 has all the capability of 7000. 
Upgrading 5000 like you said would practically make it 350 MHz 7000 with standard memory...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on November 12, 2018, 10:27:05 pm
Rigol also put the DS2000A on the arena and it basically included the 50 Ohms option as the only improvement over the DS2000. In my opinion, the MSO5000 clearly plays somewhere in between the DS2000A and the DS4000 (though both are mature platforms), IMO it hasn't got the "professional appearance" of the 4000. It's just a more "up to date" package with the bells and whistles the competitors offer since a few years. Also, bandwidth-wise it rather competes with the DS2000(A). I'm sure the hardware is capable of more than what's available right now bandwidth-wise, so who knows what Rigol's plans are? Anyway, it's interesting to watch... :popcorn: For my own part, I won't be buying yet another scope in the near future...at least not without getting rid of one of the existing specimen  ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 12, 2018, 11:05:11 pm
Anyway, it's interesting to watch... :popcorn: For my own part, I won't be buying yet another scope in the near future...at least not without getting rid of one of the existing specimen  ;D
Same here  :-DD , I need to get rid of one to even think of getting something new.. I don't really need one though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 13, 2018, 12:34:01 am
Theres no 50ohm on the R&S RTB2004 scopes either! I think that external feed-through terminators are okay up to ~300MHz, so its not a big deal here IMO.

Obviously on a 500Mhz+ scope its a deal-breaker though.

Based on the poor transient response results of various 1 GHz oscilloscopes shown in TSP's latest video, using an external 50 ohm feedthrough termination on a 500MHz vertical input is fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-G4OhWSyIo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-G4OhWSyIo)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on November 13, 2018, 05:05:17 pm
The one thing that I don't understand the most is the lack of 50R input. Say, you have an 8Gsps scope with custom ADC, custom ASIC and custom AFE. All are very nicely done and if it's hackable, for $999.
It looks super attractive, but the 50R killed it.

digital zoom on 2mV and 1mV/div killed it for me. At least put ERES :palm: until the hack is available i see no reason to get one. Screw the memory and samplerate i'd rather go to the competition, especially if one needs more bandwidth. Used Lecroys in that price range are really attractive, then there's the RTB2000 which is also higher resolution et cetera.

I wonder how limited the decoders are (by design or artificially, to separate between the 5000 and 7000)

Oh, dave, i remember they put a number for overload recovery. could you test it :)? does it signal overloading?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 13, 2018, 05:25:12 pm
Going through the datasheet it seems that the samplerate drops to 2Gs/s with 4 channels active. Also ERES is not necessary because the MSO5000 has signal filtering which IMHO -when implemented properly- is better compared to ERES because the cut-off frequency can be adjusted and remains constant regardless the actual samplerate.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on November 13, 2018, 06:02:26 pm
so there are filters? my bad. My understanding was that there is no form of filtering at all.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 13, 2018, 06:20:48 pm
so there are filters? my bad. My understanding was that there is no form of filtering at all.

The manual says this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=570986;image)

No detail provided there but it seems like they provide it instead of "hi-res" mode.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 13, 2018, 06:37:29 pm
so there are filters? my bad. My understanding was that there is no form of filtering at all.

The manual says this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=570986;image)

No detail provided there but it seems like they provide it instead of "hi-res" mode.
No, that is exactly what it says, antialiasing, to prevent aliasing (subsampling) artefacts in display . DS1000Z has that function too.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 13, 2018, 06:44:13 pm
Very good explanation of Hires vs filtering from Lecroy

http://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires (http://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 13, 2018, 07:39:25 pm
Batronix offers the MSO5000 now. MSO5072 starts at ~ €963 (including VAT). Logic probe not included.
And obviously there is no "free budle option" for the MSO5000 at this time.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: skander36 on November 13, 2018, 08:53:01 pm
Recomended prices from Rigol - https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/ (https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/)
Simone (Batterly) offer the best price for now .
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: dardosordi on November 13, 2018, 09:38:16 pm
Dave, the forum link on the youtube video is broken.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 13, 2018, 09:47:43 pm
Recomended prices from Rigol - https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/ (https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/)

809 Euros for the baseline model. They're going to make many millions after the hack appears.  :popcorn:

(we just need somebody to dump the ROM and everybody who knows the chip to look and find the license check algorithm)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 13, 2018, 09:53:29 pm
Competition document attached.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on November 13, 2018, 09:58:14 pm
Competition document attached.
Even this document contains a lot of different fonts. They should really hire someone to check this. The situation is so bad that it would be a full-time position
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 13, 2018, 10:08:00 pm
Recomended prices from Rigol - https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/ (https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/)

809 Euros for the baseline model. They're going to make many millions after the hack appears.  :popcorn:

(we just need somebody to dump the ROM and everybody who knows the chip to look and find the license check algorithm)

In deed, i likely would buy 4 of them,  they woudl be a great 'bench' scope to put on peoples work areas for general work.. ( I have old DS1102E's for that, but they are getting a bit tired. ).. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 13, 2018, 10:21:40 pm
Competition document attached.
Even this document contains a lot of different fonts. They should really hire someone to check this. The situation is so bad that it would be a full-time position
Maybe check the English while they're at it. WTF is a "burr signal"
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 13, 2018, 10:30:08 pm
Competition document attached.
Even this document contains a lot of different fonts. They should really hire someone to check this. The situation is so bad that it would be a full-time position
Maybe check the English while they're at it. WTF is a "burr signal"
Lots of factual errors too. Lots of text was copy/paste from DS7000 material.. Like references to 3000 series Teks and Keysight...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on November 13, 2018, 10:44:31 pm
https://rigolcanada.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso5000/
$1,173 CAD for the base model, if that is true its even cheaper than the USD price. $886 USD. Were there any china test gear tariffs?

One note in the datasheet, they state: "Unique online version upgrade". Hopefully that just means you can upgrade over ethernet if you want to, I doubt they would force anything. But worst case could run it with ethernet unplugged.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 13, 2018, 11:02:35 pm
https://rigolcanada.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso5000/
$1,173 CAD for the base model, if that is true its even cheaper than the USD price. $886 USD. Were there any china test gear tariffs?
I think US is applying 10% tariff for China Made Products, and scopes fall into this category.  (25% for Spectrum Analyzers) Rigol DS1054Z is now $375 (up from $345) and Keysight 1000X (Made in China) series prices are up as well.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on November 13, 2018, 11:41:19 pm
Competition document attached.
Even this document contains a lot of different fonts. They should really hire someone to check this. The situation is so bad that it would be a full-time position
Wow, this document looks like it was unfinished or something...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 14, 2018, 12:18:09 am
If you are supposed to know thousands of characters, the finer details of western typesets might become blurry.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on November 14, 2018, 12:21:34 am
If you are supposed to know thousands of characters, the finer details of western typesets might become blurry.
That's why you hire an industrial designer. Spelling errors in the UI and horrible fonts are OK if you are providing excellent value. But when you want to play with big guys, you need to be on the level at least in the industrial design, arguably the simplest metric to achieve.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 14, 2018, 02:30:06 am
Then again, it's become Rigol's "style." Hopefully, no one else decides it's a good idea and copies the poor practices.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 14, 2018, 02:41:34 am
Seriously... if you are a hobbyist, why would you pay $909 for a scope that is similar to the DS1054Z?  Except for higher sample memory, is there any new feature on the MSO5000 that a hobbyist can take advantage of vs the 1054Z?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 14, 2018, 02:56:22 am
There's higher sampling rate, too. But, no, for general use the DS1054Z, SDS1104X-E, etc. are just fine. I'm not replacing mine.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexkiritz on November 14, 2018, 06:35:39 am
Seriously... if you are a hobbyist, why would you pay $909 for a scope that is similar to the DS1054Z?  Except for higher sample memory, is there any new feature on the MSO5000 that a hobbyist can take advantage of vs the 1054Z?

9 inch 1024 x 600 screen vs 7 inch 800 X 480 screen. I'm sure that's enough reason for a lot of people.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: LapTop006 on November 14, 2018, 07:49:04 am
9 inch 1024 x 600 screen vs 7 inch 800 X 480 screen. I'm sure that's enough reason for a lot of people.

Yep, non-teensy screen is one of the key reasons I bought the scope I did, sure you can plug in external screens, but you intend to move a scope around that's just more of a pain.

The Tek MSO5 is great for this, hopefully better screens keep trickling down to more affordable scopes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 14, 2018, 08:08:53 am
Seriously... if you are a hobbyist, why would you pay $909 for a scope that is similar to the DS1054Z?  Except for higher sample memory, is there any new feature on the MSO5000 that a hobbyist can take advantage of vs the 1054Z?

Touch screen, web interface, HDMI output, better FFT...


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 14, 2018, 08:20:28 am
It also has a clock.   :-+ 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 14, 2018, 08:32:13 am
Seriously... if you are a hobbyist, why would you pay $909 for a scope that is similar to the DS1054Z?  Except for higher sample memory, is there any new feature on the MSO5000 that a hobbyist can take advantage of vs the 1054Z?

Bigger screen, per-channel controls, touch screen, HDMI output, web interface, better FFT?

OTOH the $909 model only has two channels and no serial decoding, so...  :--

The success/fail of this will depend entirely on the hacking, IMHO. I don't see why anybody would buy the $909 model instead of the much cheaper 2-channel Siglent (is a fancy screen and separate controls worth $400 plus loss of bandwidth and serial decoders? I don't think so)

No hacks=no sales. Rigol must know that. I can't believe they'll throw away all the R&D effort for their new chipset by trying to sell it at the official prices, it would be suicide.

They have the option of offering "free" options, sure, it wouldn't surprise me if you get free serial decoders this Xmas, but they'll probably make far more money in the long term by just letting people hack it.

Hacking this would completely kill their DS2000X range though and I bet there's an idiot boss at Rigol who's worried about that.

I'm sure the hack will happen, the only question is whether you need JTAG or just a keygen.

There's higher sampling rate, too.

Not in the $909 model.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: imo on November 14, 2018, 08:55:58 am
Any idea what is the Spartan6 doing there?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 14, 2018, 11:25:52 am
There's higher sampling rate, too.

Not in the $909 model.  :popcorn:
MSO5072 ($909) has 8GSa/s
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Gromitt on November 14, 2018, 03:13:35 pm
Recomended prices from Rigol - https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/ (https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/)
Simone (Batterly) offer the best price for now .

No, Batterfly has the same price as Batronix, and Batronix offers free postage in EU.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Old Printer on November 14, 2018, 04:22:49 pm
Odd that in the US Tequipment's site makes no mention of the new MSO5000 yet Saelig has a big splash on it???
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tequipment on November 15, 2018, 01:22:23 am
Search see tequipment we have it up
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on November 15, 2018, 01:30:52 am
I think it's safe to assume that the MSO5000 isn't particularly aimed at hobbyists.  Yeah there's configurations that are under the famous "big hobby expenditure bump" at $3k, but  it doesn't seem to be aimed at the people doing the same kind of things as DS1000z customers.

Lets see how the hack situation goes, but really I'm expecting they will plug that gap after having to give away so much functionality on the 1000z.

Also, all this talk about the 2 channel 70MHz version is a bit funny.

You guys realise that option is there as a price anchor for the versions they actually expect to sell?

The concept of having a scope at the level of the MSO5000, but only having 70MHz bandwidth and 2 channels (barbaric! who would have a scope with only 2 channels in this day and age?!??!) is just too depressing to consider.. If you only need 2 channels and 70MHz, well you really don't need 8GS/s and 500k captures/sec either, so just get the DS1000z.

If you're buying a MSO5000 for general professional embedded work, you're going to be looking at the 4 channel 200MHz version and the app bundle... US$3400ish. (plus maybe the logic analyser cable bundle for anther $400, but most can live without having an LA in their scope these days)  And assuming the implementation of the firmware is basically functional and the scope is easy to use and accurate and reliable, well that would be a great bargain looking at equivalent low/mid tek and keysight models.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: chickenHeadKnob on November 15, 2018, 02:14:23 am
The smallest fonts on the screen look to be equal in size to the smallest font on the DS2072a. Is that the case? I find them to be inscrutable. It would be a shame if that is still a problem, but at least you can hook up an external monitor so maybe not such a big deal.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 15, 2018, 02:53:33 am
Has anyone hacked it yet?   Should i buy one and have a go.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: maginnovision on November 15, 2018, 04:16:11 am
Yea, I was going to wait until after christmas(no time before then anyway) but you should definitely see what's up!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ResistorRob on November 15, 2018, 05:03:39 am
From a poor hobbyist point of view. I have been wanting a new scope badly for a few years now, but have been going through some tough financial times. I could probably scrape together enough for a Rigol 1054z sometime soon but it was missing a few things on my wishlist and don't care for the toyish looks. The new Siglent 1104-x would fit my needs perfectly, but I drool in jealousy over touchscreen scopes. I love black test equipment and most my test equipment is black and from the 80's and 90's including my broken scope. If someone can hack this for $1,000 to get a touchscreen scope would be amazing. I say 1k because I would all 4 probes. I only need 100Mhz but unlocking serial decodes seems like a rip off. Then I would pay to get the logic analyzer probes down the road.

So as a serious hobbyist I would be willing to save up a longer time to get the touchscreen. The different size fonts don't bother me. Once I get a decent scope I will probably start a YouTube channel. I have some ideas for electronics projects that I'm really excited to do and nobody online has ever posted anything like them, and would be fun to share with the tiny community of old school hobbyists not the Rasperry Pi and Arduino crowd, and probably won't appeal to engineers either, lol.

I think Rigol did a nice job with this. My fingers are crossed it is hackable because if it is I will sell my soul to the devil to get one :-) 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 15, 2018, 07:34:45 am
I'm expecting they will plug that gap after having to give away so much functionality on the 1000z.

Huh? You don't think they "allowed" it? It wouldn't have sold otherwise.

The previous generation worked the same way (DS1052E was hackable).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 15, 2018, 07:37:45 am
I think Rigol did a nice job with this. My fingers are crossed it is hackable because if it is I will sell my soul to the devil to get one :-)

If it's soft-upgradable then it IS hackable. Period.

We just don't know how much effort it takes (nobody has one yet!)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 15, 2018, 02:59:01 pm
And assuming the implementation of the firmware is basically functional and the scope is easy to use and accurate and reliable, well that would be a great bargain looking at equivalent low/mid tek and keysight models.
Well.. people have been writing that for many years on this forum and it hasn't become a reality yet.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 15, 2018, 05:14:19 pm
Had a quick play with one at Electronica and a chat with one of their US guys.
I didn't find anything obvuiously wrong, knobs maybe a little small, and might have been better in a colour that gave some contrast with the black.
Uart decode goes to 20Mbaud.
Screen feels a bit small once you have the MSO on
Mso probe has an acvtive head and 0.1" pin header, and they supply single wire probe leads, not paired with gnd so could have inductance issues.
US guy also thought it nuts thay they did a 2ch version.
Has HDMI out, which for some reason has option to diwnscale to VGA and 720xsomething-is there any hdmi device that would need that?
 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on November 15, 2018, 07:28:44 pm
I think Rigol did a nice job with this. My fingers are crossed it is hackable because if it is I will sell my soul to the devil to get one :-)

If it's soft-upgradable then it IS hackable. Period.

We just don't know how much effort it takes (nobody has one yet!)

Unless they really wanted to make it secure and used some custom silicon, but that is extremely unlikely.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on November 15, 2018, 09:15:58 pm
If you're buying a MSO5000 for general professional embedded work, you're going to be looking at the 4 channel 200MHz version and the app bundle... US$3400ish. (plus maybe the logic analyser cable bundle for anther $400, but most can live without having an LA in their scope these days)  And assuming the implementation of the firmware is basically functional and the scope is easy to use and accurate and reliable, well that would be a great bargain looking at equivalent low/mid tek and keysight models.

Can be related to budgets. At many companies you can get away with $900 per month budget, but not a singular $4k purchase. So month 1 get the 2 channel scope, month 2 get the bandwidth upgrade, etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 15, 2018, 10:46:58 pm
I think Rigol did a nice job with this. My fingers are crossed it is hackable because if it is I will sell my soul to the devil to get one :-)

If it's soft-upgradable then it IS hackable. Period.

We just don't know how much effort it takes (nobody has one yet!)

Unless they really wanted to make it secure and used some custom silicon, but that is extremely unlikely.
They do have custom silicon, 3 chips ISTR, and they could have thrown some stuff in there to support security.
Even without that, there are ways they could make it pretty much hackproof, but Chinese software writers are unlikely to have the imagination to do it effectively.
Of course that assumes they really want to secure it, which I think they probably do.

The entry cost means a much higher barrier to entry to someone wanting to investigate seriously, with the risk of damage/bricking.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on November 16, 2018, 02:13:43 am
Well.. people have been writing that for many years on this forum and it hasn't become a reality yet.

yeah... that's why I'm looking at it with interest, rather than running about with my credit card out.
:-)
Really, for what it's meant to be, the DS1000z isn't too bad now. it's a little annoying in a few ways, and the serial decode feature sucks. but, well, as an entry level scope, it's good.

For me, with this new unit I'm interested in the usability of the ethernet remote control & capture functions - and would want the serial decode to be way better than the 1000z implementation... those two being good, plus generally having the rest of the functionality do what it says on the box, and no major faults found with any features, this will be a good general purpose embedded scope. And looking at how they went with the DS1000z, I think that it's likely they will do it. Even if there's issues on release.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nixfu on November 16, 2018, 02:33:49 am
Personally hoping Rigol will come out with a better Spectrum Analyer that ups the performance and lowers the price at the same time to increase the $/performance to the point it’s more feasible for hobbyists to buy one. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: scopeman on November 16, 2018, 04:00:22 am
woohoo! individual channel controls!

And a single (multiplexed) cursor control knob...wah..wah..wah.

Once you have them you will never go back.

It's touch screen though. Dave never seems to get used to using his finger for menu selections but I'm sure other people will.

A little bit of a rant here but here goes.......

The problem with touch screen (and I have tried very hard to get LeCroy to really listen to me on this) is that a touch screen is nice and handy at times but for the most part for me it is a gimmick and you can not get the precision out of a touch screen (even if you use a stylus) than you can get out of a couple of cursor knobs. If I have a precise cursor measurement to make I turn the touch screen off.

I have one of their 12 bit scopes (yes it has touch they call Maui) that I love for the resolution and other reasons but I despise the one knob for the cursor, a real time waster. Having to cycle through the selections takes time and is very distracting. With two cursor knobs, a reference and a difference cursor moving and measuring between two points, especially in zoom mode even in a large field of data is easy. Couple that with direct keypad entry of the cursor position and then you have something.

I really like my old LeCroy Waverunner 6K that has two cursor knobs and two zoom controls (one for amount of zoom and one for the position of zoom) as well as individual vertical attenuation and position controls. Whoever at LeCroy designed the ergonomics for that scope was a real scope user! So if I have a lot of measurements to make and I don't have all day to do them I dig out the old scope and sacrifice the resolution.

The cost of the added digital encoder controls are virtually insignificant when you consider that these modern scopes are 10's of kilobucks. Don't get me wrong, I like the big screen but you might have to do make the scope a whole inch to a inch and a half wider to add the controls? No one is going to care about that. It looks to me that there is plenty of room to at least add the second cursor knob (two concentric controls could add both the zoom and the position) on the Rigol MSO5000 "Darth Vader" scope.

Sam
W3OHM

 


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 16, 2018, 08:13:11 am
Recomended prices from Rigol - https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/ (https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/)
Simone (Batterly) offer the best price for now .

No, Batterfly has the same price as Batronix, and Batronix offers free postage in EU.
we also offer free shipment with TNT express service, please check the shipping terms.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 16, 2018, 08:21:19 am
Hello, we are back from the show and it was loooooong walk around.
Spent big time playing with the MSO5000 and I will do more next week at the office.
As Dave indicated, while we were in Germany, we almost sold all units in 3 days from the launch! New stock is coming already.
There are lot of consideration to do about the unit, yes the display could have been brighter but connected to HDMI is fine (and way bigger)
While I was there I spoke to several visitors and most of them wanted to see the FFT, no much request about decoding.
I agree with many of you the starting price point is not really hobby oriented, but the specs are way better than DS1054Z and if some one will hack it well then will be a great deal.
What is not clear yet is when you take the 4 channels upgrade the missing probes are not included  :palm:
I will try to understand better when the show is over and give a better answer here.
For now - ciao
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 16, 2018, 08:49:59 am
Quote
I despise the one knob for the cursor, a real time waster. Having to cycle through the selections takes time and is very distracting.

And if there is only one knob, double-pressing it should toggle the cursors in an intelligent way - from memory I think R&S RTB does this but Keysight doesn't
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydron on November 16, 2018, 11:52:40 am
Regardless of whether you use it for general navigation, a touchscreen is fantastic for entering numbers/letters using an onscreen keypad. Anything where you'd otherwise scroll through a list laboriously entering 1 character at a time becomes hugely quicker, examples being custom attenuation factors, sig-gen freq/offset, FFT span/start/end, filenames for screenshots, vertical/horizontal offsets and many more.

It's not the answer for some other things, e.g. V/div setting, but is handy enough that I'd trade a lot of physical controls for this one feature.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 16, 2018, 12:04:57 pm
Also things like rearranging  the positons of 16 digital inputs - this gets painful without a touchscreen
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 16, 2018, 12:23:41 pm
but I drool in jealousy over touchscreen scopes.)
You can get the Micsig TO1104 (4-channel touch screen tablet 100MHz with serial decode & battery) for around $485 (US)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 16, 2018, 07:25:51 pm
I think Rigol did a nice job with this. My fingers are crossed it is hackable because if it is I will sell my soul to the devil to get one :-)

If it's soft-upgradable then it IS hackable. Period.

We just don't know how much effort it takes (nobody has one yet!)

If they have used some level of cryptography, so a specific licence key that is keyed to the hardware, then it might be much harder than the previous variants.    Maybe Rigo actually wants it to be hacked.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 16, 2018, 09:38:15 pm
Well.. people have been writing that for many years on this forum and it hasn't become a reality yet.

The DS1054Z has had several firmware updates. What bugs are left now?  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 16, 2018, 09:48:51 pm
Of course that assumes they really want to secure it, which I think they probably do.

Anything above the DS1054Z already requires you to open it up and use a JTAG programmer to hack it. Only the base models are hackable with a simple keygen.

That's enough of an impediment to prevent the majority of people from doing it even if the instructions are widely available.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: glarsson on November 16, 2018, 10:12:01 pm
Anything above the DS1054Z already requires you to open it up and use a JTAG programmer to hack it.
The DS4000 series is upgraded using keygen.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 17, 2018, 01:58:02 am
Of course that assumes they really want to secure it, which I think they probably do.

Anything above the DS1054Z already requires you to open it up and use a JTAG programmer to hack it. Only the base models are hackable with a simple keygen.

That's enough of an impediment to prevent the majority of people from doing it even if the instructions are widely available.

So what is required to have a go to hack it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on November 17, 2018, 02:55:28 am
Of course that assumes they really want to secure it, which I think they probably do.

Anything above the DS1054Z already requires you to open it up and use a JTAG programmer to hack it. Only the base models are hackable with a simple keygen.

That's enough of an impediment to prevent the majority of people from doing it even if the instructions are widely available.

So what is required to have a go to hack it.

I'm thinking a JTAG interface compatible with the CPU it uses so you can dump the flash chip. From there the OS can be analyzed.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 17, 2018, 08:28:43 am
Of course that assumes they really want to secure it, which I think they probably do.

Anything above the DS1054Z already requires you to open it up and use a JTAG programmer to hack it. Only the base models are hackable with a simple keygen.

That's enough of an impediment to prevent the majority of people from doing it even if the instructions are widely available.

So what is required to have a go to hack it.

I'm thinking a JTAG interface compatible with the CPU it uses so you can dump the flash chip. From there the OS can be analyzed.

From what i read in the bootloader, it seems its running on a Zync SOC, with the Xilinx variant of linux.    If i had that hardware, id use the secure bootloader, so reading the flash won't be particulally helpful as it woudl be AES256 encrypted.     

Did dave do a tear down? would be interesting to know whats actually inside it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on November 17, 2018, 06:47:16 pm
Well you won't know until you try it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ResistorRob on November 17, 2018, 08:33:50 pm
I have a dumb question. Does this do Bode Plots like the Siglent 1104X-e?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 17, 2018, 09:19:43 pm
 That is true.

I'm heading to the US soon, i might pick one up while i'm thiere, because they are much much cheaper in the USA, than downunder.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 18, 2018, 10:19:50 am
So what is required to have a go to hack it.

The first thing you need is two 'scopes with different options.

One to figure out the exact chips on the board and the available test/JTAG points, the other to figure out what's different between the two.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 18, 2018, 11:03:57 am
I'm puzzled that the common opinion here seems to be that the mere existence of a JTAG port means that you can read out the flash. Even back in early Atmel 8bit microcontrollers 20 years ago, there were mechanisms to prohibit reading of flash ("fuses"). Every microcontroller nowadays should have means to disable JTAG in production and/or disable read access to RAM and flash through JTAG. If Rigol didn't prohibit reading out the flash in the past, you can choose if this was due to incompetence or a "don't care" policy. Anyway, either can change.

After prohibiting reading out the flash, the next logical step is encrypting firmware images. Sothe bootblock decrypts the image while reading. And since you can't read out the bootblock, you can't access the key for decoding. When an RSA/AES encryption with sufficient key length is used, this approach is pretty much bullet proof.

The only hope then would be to find a weakness in the specific microcontroller to circumvent the flash read protection. The "chip tuning" industry managed to find such flaws in several automotive processors, but obviously this is nothing you can rely on.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 18, 2018, 11:24:43 am
I'm puzzled that the common opinion here seems to be that the mere existence of a JTAG port means that you can read out the flash. Even back in early Atmel 8bit microcontrollers 20 years ago, there were mechanisms to prohibit reading of flash ("fuses"). Every microcontroller nowadays should have means to disable JTAG in production and/or disable read access to RAM and flash through JTAG. If Rigol didn't prohibit reading out the flash in the past, you can choose if this was due to incompetence or a "don't care" policy. Anyway, either can change.

After prohibiting reading out the flash, the next logical step is encrypting firmware images. Sothe bootblock decrypts the image while reading. And since you can't read out the bootblock, you can't access the key for decoding. When an RSA/AES encryption with sufficient key length is used, this approach is pretty much bullet proof.

The only hope then would be to find a weakness in the specific microcontroller to circumvent the flash read protection. The "chip tuning" industry managed to find such flaws in several automotive processors, but obviously this is nothing you can rely on.
We're not talking about flash on an MCU here, but a seperate flash chip, which may be accessable using boundary scan port on the device connected to it.
If the flash is connected to an FPGA, you could load a bitstream into the FPGA to read the flash and spit it out serially
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 18, 2018, 11:26:06 am
After prohibiting reading out the flash, the next logical step is encrypting firmware images. Sothe bootblock decrypts the image while reading. And since you can't read out the bootblock, you can't access the key for decoding. When an RSA/AES encryption with sufficient key length is used, this approach is pretty much bullet proof.
I'm wondering if Rigol is allowed to use AES encryption on the firmware. There might be export restrictions. I'm pretty sure the NSA and similar security agencies will want to examine the firmware for any hidden forms of cyber attack.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 18, 2018, 11:57:52 am
I'm puzzled that the common opinion here seems to be that the mere existence of a JTAG port means that you can read out the flash. Even back in early Atmel 8bit microcontrollers 20 years ago, there were mechanisms to prohibit reading of flash ("fuses"). Every microcontroller nowadays should have means to disable JTAG in production and/or disable read access to RAM and flash through JTAG. If Rigol didn't prohibit reading out the flash in the past, you can choose if this was due to incompetence or a "don't care" policy. Anyway, either can change.

Sure, but this isn't a fixed-function microcontroller that gets programmed once at the factory.

These devices are firmware upgradable. The chips used on them work by reading their code from an external flash memory chip at power-on and they need a way to rewrite the contents of those chips during upgrades/patches.

The chips aren't potted so the worst case is that you have to solder little wires onto the chip and sniff the data when it boots (it's usually a serial bus, eg. SPI).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 18, 2018, 12:01:16 pm
I'm wondering if Rigol is allowed to use AES encryption on the firmware. There might be export restrictions. I'm pretty sure the NSA and similar security agencies will want to examine the firmware for any hidden forms of cyber attack.

I'm sure it would be easier to sniff the Ethernet/USB bus for malicious traffic than try to reverse engineer the firmware.

(Ethernet/USB is the only way an oscilloscope could really "attack" anything)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 18, 2018, 12:06:17 pm
We're not talking about flash on an MCU here, but a seperate flash chip, which may be accessable using boundary scan port on the device connected to it.
If the flash is connected to an FPGA, you could load a bitstream into the FPGA to read the flash and spit it out serially
Ah, OK, in my field of work (automotive/engine control), external flash hasn't been used since ages. So i must admit didn't think of this approach. Still, I would think in the 21st century someone came up with an approach to prevent an attack on the flash, specifically if the device is Linux based and the flash contains a file system. Like you could use an encrypted file system and store the decryption key in protected microcontroller flash or whatever.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 18, 2018, 12:44:45 pm
Like you could use an encrypted file system and store the decryption key in protected microcontroller flash or whatever.

Sure, they could do all that (and more besides)

But it's weird that they didn't put the same level of protection in the DS1000Z as in the DS1000Z 'Plus' models.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 18, 2018, 12:45:06 pm
I'm wondering if Rigol is allowed to use AES encryption on the firmware. There might be export restrictions. I'm pretty sure the NSA and similar security agencies will want to examine the firmware for any hidden forms of cyber attack.
I'm sure it would be easier to sniff the Ethernet/USB bus for malicious traffic than try to reverse engineer the firmware.
No. Inspecting the firmware is the only way because there might be specific triggers involved. Think about the scope examining a USB stick and network traffic first to look for company names. A crapload of information is broadcasted on networks so there is no need to send anything in order to collect initial data.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 18, 2018, 01:27:15 pm
No. Inspecting the firmware is the only way because there might be specific triggers involved. Think about the scope examining a USB stick and network traffic first to look for company names. A crapload of information is broadcasted on networks so there is no need to send anything in order to collect initial data.

The NSA has no way to broadcast some "typical" traffic at an oscilloscope? :popcorn:

And, (b) If you were a boss at Rigol, would you risk being caught doing something like that? It would be the end of the company.

I think the only way an attack of this sort would be attempted would be on a specific shipment that was destined for a particular company. Keep as low a profile as possible. In that case examining the "public" firmware wouldn't do you any good.

And, (c) If I were going to do something this risky I'd do it in hardware, not software. Examining the firmware wouldn't give any clues.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 18, 2018, 02:43:52 pm
No. Inspecting the firmware is the only way because there might be specific triggers involved. Think about the scope examining a USB stick and network traffic first to look for company names. A crapload of information is broadcasted on networks so there is no need to send anything in order to collect initial data.
The NSA has no way to broadcast some "typical" traffic at an oscilloscope? :popcorn:

And, (b) If you were a boss at Rigol, would you risk being caught doing something like that? It would be the end of the company.
Doing a firmware analysis is infinitely easier than stabbing around in the blind trying to hit something. And if you are worried about b): Huawei and ZTE still exist.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 18, 2018, 06:22:53 pm
Hi there,

Batronix (Germany) sells the MSO5074 for 1069€, a Options Bundle (excluding Bandwith) for 713€ - With a look on the technical data of this newbie, appx 1800€ seems not too expensive.
Compare it with my former favorite, RTB2004, it´s a little bit more than half the price of it (2200€ for 70Mhz plus optionbundle).
Therefore I think I will give the new Rigol a try....or should I wait....
Actual, Batronix offer the 1000Z Models with all Options including, maybe this will happen too for the MSO5000, but when...
I did a request for it by Batronix, also I ask them for the missing HiRes Mode, if there is a Firmware Update in Progress.
First answer, they will ask Rigol…

Martin
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 18, 2018, 06:47:56 pm
is anybody interested on the logic channels (adding the logic probe)?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 18, 2018, 07:01:03 pm
I'd wait at least until there's either a free options bundle or it's clear whether there will be a hack. Since 70MHz bandwidth is a bit of a joke and the prizes for the frequency upgrades are crazy.
Besides, given that all other Rigol scopes including the DS7000 currently get all the decoders for free, the MSO5000 line seems less attractive.
E.g. currently the price difference between an MSO5014 with options bundle and a DS7014 with (free) options bundle is less than 600€.

Anyway, while the 8GS/s sample rate is really tempting, I guess you'll be happier with the RTB in the long run. Rigol has a bad history regarding firmware updates etc. and the magnified low voltage scales make it even worse compared to the 10bit sampling of the RTB. I personally hate that both, DS5000 and RTB2000 don't have a probe detection/supply. I mean I could live without probe supply, but a scope without probe detection feels like going back to the middle ages.

Batronix (Germany) sells the MSO5074 for 1069€, a Options Bundle (excluding Bandwith) for 713€ - With a look on the technical data of this newbie, appx 1800€ seems not too expensive.
Compare it with my former favorite, RTB2004, it´s a little bit more than half the price of it (2200€ for 70Mhz plus optionbundle).
Therefore I think I will give the new Rigol a try....or should I wait....
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 18, 2018, 07:11:42 pm
Anyway, while the 8GS/s sample rate is really tempting, I guess you'll be happier with the RTB in the long run. Rigol has a bad history regarding firmware updates etc. and the magnified low voltage scales make it even worse compared to the 10bit sampling of the RTB. I personally hate that both, DS5000 and RTB2000 don't have a probe detection/supply. I mean I could live without probe supply, but a scope without probe detection feels like going back to the middle ages.

The lack of probe detection is one of the reasons I think this 'scope might not be too hard to hack, ie. in a professional environment the missing features mean a hacked DS5000 still won't compete with other mid-range Rigol scopes.

It would kill their DS2000 range, yes, but maybe Siglent/Keysight already did that and this is Rigol's Siglent/Keysight killer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 18, 2018, 07:36:29 pm
In our testfield, most of the scopes are from Lecroy with the ability of Auto-Detection.
If I use a suitable probe, it´s a nice feature - Otherwise I´ll set the gain manually, it takes a few seconds more to do that.
Or are there another benefits I don´t know them until now ?
It seems, it´s very important to have this.

@0xdeadbeef :

The RTB is my favorite, but for private actions it´s too expensive ( for me).

Martin

Edit:

Quote
is anybody interested on the logic channels (adding the logic probe)?


I won´t use them even it would be included.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 18, 2018, 09:01:02 pm
E.g. currently the price difference between an MSO5014 with options bundle and a DS7014 with (free) options bundle is less than 600€.

Oh, haven´t seen this offer (DSO 7000 with all options for free), did a reply to Batronix a few minutes before with a mark to this - With all options included the price would be hot for the 5000 series.
70Mhz BW I don´t care about it, more important would be the fix of an missing Hi-Res Mode.
Even my Siglent Scope have an enhanced resolution mode, Rigol have to fix it for the 5000/7000 series.
What I like on our LeCroy scopes are the displaying of PWM Signals "slow" and the free choosable measuring gate - I´m curious about it, if the Rigol have this too.



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 18, 2018, 10:55:14 pm
After prohibiting reading out the flash, the next logical step is encrypting firmware images. Sothe bootblock decrypts the image while reading. And since you can't read out the bootblock, you can't access the key for decoding. When an RSA/AES encryption with sufficient key length is used, this approach is pretty much bullet proof.
I'm wondering if Rigol is allowed to use AES encryption on the firmware. There might be export restrictions. I'm pretty sure the NSA and similar security agencies will want to examine the firmware for any hidden forms of cyber attack.


AES encryption is a publiclly available algorithm, so, not sure how export restrictions stop anything.   The Xilinx chipset that is running the CPU is made in Taiwan.    The NSA last time i looked did'nt have much power in taiwan.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 18, 2018, 11:01:25 pm
We're not talking about flash on an MCU here, but a seperate flash chip, which may be accessable using boundary scan port on the device connected to it.
If the flash is connected to an FPGA, you could load a bitstream into the FPGA to read the flash and spit it out serially
Ah, OK, in my field of work (automotive/engine control), external flash hasn't been used since ages. So i must admit didn't think of this approach. Still, I would think in the 21st century someone came up with an approach to prevent an attack on the flash, specifically if the device is Linux based and the flash contains a file system. Like you could use an encrypted file system and store the decryption key in protected microcontroller flash or whatever.

If they have encrypted the data on the flash. ( which is stock standard for how you protect your IP ), then being able to read it,  wont' help you.  You would need the private keys to decode it.   if they are using eFUSEs then they probably have blown the fuse so you cna't read the eFUSE registers either.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 18, 2018, 11:09:15 pm
Hm, why would you think that I didn't get what encryption is for? Actually you seem to repeat more or less what I wrote. Sometimes you wonder...

Still, I would think in the 21st century someone came up with an approach to prevent an attack on the flash, specifically if the device is Linux based and the flash contains a file system. Like you could use an encrypted file system and store the decryption key in protected microcontroller flash or whatever.

If they have encrypted the data on the flash. ( which is stock standard for how you protect your IP ), then being able to read it,  wont' help you.  You would need the private keys to decode it.   if they are using eFUSEs then they probably have blown the fuse so you cna't read the eFUSE registers either.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 19, 2018, 12:05:00 am
If they have encrypted the data on the flash. ( which is stock standard for how you protect your IP ), then being able to read it,  wont' help you.  You would need the private keys to decode it. 

I find no flaws in that logic, but...  is it the case?

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 19, 2018, 01:49:57 am
Hm, why would you think that I didn't get what encryption is for? Actually you seem to repeat more or less what I wrote. Sometimes you wonder...

Sorry no offence meant or intended...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on November 19, 2018, 02:55:49 am
I'm wondering if Rigol is allowed to use AES encryption on the firmware. There might be export restrictions. I'm pretty sure the NSA and similar security agencies will want to examine the firmware for any hidden forms of cyber attack.

if by "examine" you mean "insert" then yes, I think they would love to be able to do that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: xek on November 19, 2018, 10:20:08 pm
I'm wondering if Logic Probe is just a bunch of wires and one can use this feature without actually buying the logic probe...
The socket in MSO5000 unit looks like one can just insert hand-made pins directly into the socket...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 19, 2018, 10:25:31 pm
I remember someone mentioned active digital probe
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 19, 2018, 10:49:46 pm
I remember someone mentioned active digital probe
It is active - it was warm to the touch.
Probably similar to the other units we've seen like the R&S one - comparators with differential outputs to drive the cable, and a DAC to set the threshold.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 19, 2018, 11:24:13 pm
Is it too much of a strech to think that the 5000, is similar to the 7000 in terms of systems architecture...  I googled for a 7000 hack but have not seen one.

?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 19, 2018, 11:35:47 pm
Is it too much of a strech to think that the 5000, is similar to the 7000 in terms of systems architecture...  I googled for a 7000 hack but have not seen one.

?
Have they sold any 7000's yet?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 20, 2018, 04:03:43 am
Is it too much of a strech to think that the 5000, is similar to the 7000 in terms of systems architecture...

The general board layouts looked pretty similar. Their technology is related (Rigol's new silicon). Once one of them gets hacked, the other may soon follow.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 20, 2018, 08:03:18 am
Is it too much of a strech to think that the 5000, is similar to the 7000 in terms of systems architecture...  I googled for a 7000 hack but have not seen one.

They have sell some first.

Nobody can hack them until they have some to play with.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Vtech on November 20, 2018, 02:34:27 pm
Quote
Is it too much of a strech to think that the 5000, is similar to the 7000 in terms of systems architecture...
MSO5000 and MSO7000 looks to be nearly identical.
I think they share:
- front end chip (rigol's beta phoenicis theoretically up to 4GHz)
- ADC (MSO5000 8GS/s, MSO7000 10GS/s, MSO8000 10GS/s, most likely same chip)
- signal acquisition chip (rigol's Ankaa)
- acquisition memory 1.25GB (on Dave's teardown photos both 7k and 5k have 5 Micron MT41K128M16JT-125IT:K (code D9PSK) 128Mx16 DDR3, that means 1.25GB of memory with maximum 16GB/s throughput)
- FPGA (Spartan 6 XC6SLX9)
- Zynq7000 FPGA+dual core ARM Cortex A9
- CPU RAM memory 512MB (2x Micorn MT41K128M16JT-125 IT:K 128Mx16 DDR3, same as acquisition memory)
- CPU FLASH 1GB (1GB Micron MT29F8G08ADADAH4-IT:D (code NW225))
- intensity grading memory? (2x NETSOL S7R321882M-EC30 2Mx18 SRAM)
- Ethernet PHY (Micrel KSZ9031RNXCC, supports Gigabit Ethernet)
- USB ULPI phy (2x SMSC USB3340), MSO7000 has additional USB hub chip on the host side (USB2514B USB2.0 high speed 4-port hub)
- settings memory (winbond 25Q128JVSQ 16MB serial NOR flash)
- AWG DACs (2x AD9744 14-bit, 210MS/s DAC)
- PLL chip (2x LMX2582 5.5GHz)

On the software side they have same:
U-Boot 2014.01.Rigolee.dirty
Linux version 3.12.0-xilinx (rigolee@Jim) (gcc version 4.8.1 (Sourcery CodeBench Lite 2013.11-53) )

MSO5000 has slightly newer SMP PREEMPT patch (version #43 from July 2018 instead of version #35 from May 2018 that MSO7000 has)

I bet they are running exactly the same software.

On Electronica fairs Rigol showed also MSO8000 series scope. I remember it looks similar to MSO7000 except it is black like MSO5000. It has 10GS/s and 500M memory but I don't remember the bandwidth options. It is probably the same hardware as MSO7000 but for higher bandwidths. Unfortunately I don't have photos of it but I've found one picture on the net:
(https://static.electronicsweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/07151530/Rigol-instruments-Electronica-2018.jpg)

You can see the new scope in the upper left corner of that image.

From what I saw on the fairs, UI is much more responsive on the 5k, 7k, 8k series than older Rigols. For me, the best thing is that both 5k and 7k have really fast hardware measurements. Measurements on full 500M memory take only about a second. I bet decoders also work a lot better/faster.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 20, 2018, 04:18:07 pm

On Electronica fairs Rigol showed also MSO8000 series scope. I remember it looks similar to MSO7000 except it is black like MSO5000. It has 10GS/s and 500M memory but I don't remember the bandwidth options. It is probably the same hardware as MSO7000 but for higher bandwidths. Unfortunately I don't have photos of it but I've found one picture on the net:

8000 has 1 and 2 GHz bandwidth, also software unlockable.  I'm not sure, but it probably has 2 ADC, so sample rate doesn't drop to less than 5GS/sec per ch. That needs to be verified though.
They also said they are going to release soon new series that will go to 4GHz with 20GS/sec converters.  It seems their chipset is still being refined on a  hardware level.

5000, 7000, 8000 all have IDENTICAL software, trigger, decode and measurement capabilities. They handle measurements very fast, but UI is very laggy at the moment. Dragging things on a screen with a finger is a guessing game.. Although much fancier R&S 3000 series is just a bit faster, but not much, so they are not the only ones with that problem.

Rigol new series hardware seems solid and with plenty raw power. Software platform needs more work, both in optimization of UI speed, and in functions. It has 4 math channels but hey are on the same level of complexity as DS1000Z series.  But as I said, they seem to be in active development of platform, so they will be adding capabilities. They might add advanced math pack later and such.
That remains to be seen.

Regards,
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 20, 2018, 06:42:56 pm
Hm, if the MSO7054 already costs ~11k€ at 500MHz, I don't dare to ask what the 1GHz MSO8000 will cost. I guess t must be like 15k€ or so at least.
Honestly, who would actually pay this amount of money for a Rigol scope - given their history of not even getting the PLL right, lack of firmware updates, cheapish parts in the power supply, weird support etc. ???
E.g. the LeCroy WS 3104Z is around 12k€ (including VAT) and companies usually pay much less or get free extras (decoders etc.) if they order directly at Lecroy.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 20, 2018, 07:30:25 pm
Hm, if the MSO7054 already costs ~11k€ at 500MHz, I don't dare to ask what the 1GHz MSO8000 will cost. I guess t must be like 15k€ or so at least.
Honestly, who would actually pay this amount of money for a Rigol scope - given their history of not even getting the PLL right, lack of firmware updates, cheapish parts in the power supply, weird support etc. ???
E.g. the LeCroy WS 3104Z is around 12k€ (including VAT) and companies usually pay much less or get free extras (decoders etc.) if they order directly at Lecroy.
Don’t forget the WS3104Z is made by Siglent. Siglent is coming with the SDS5104X in Europe which will cost way less and much better specs than WS3000Z.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 20, 2018, 08:03:40 pm
That's offtopic and was discussed in any possible depth before but it should be obvious for anybody that it's nonsense to think a standalone Siglent would be anyway near the result of the (unequal) cooperation with Lecroy.
Let's wait for that SDS5104X to arrive and see if it finds its niche as low cost 500MHz scope, but that's a totally different story.

The only thing here that somewhat matters for the Rigol 7000/8000 discussion (in an MSO5000 thread ;) ) is that obviously even for the "high end" Rigol/Siglent scopes, a probe connection is worth much less than the probe connection of a Lecroy, Agilent or Tektronix scope. Since who really wants to buy an active/current/differential probe from Rigol or Siglent?

Don’t forget the WS3104Z is made by Siglent. Siglent is coming with the SDS5104X in Europe which will cost way less and much better specs than WS3000Z.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: asmi on November 20, 2018, 08:33:42 pm
The only thing here that somewhat matters for the Rigol 7000/8000 discussion (in an MSO5000 thread ;) ) is that obviously even for the "high end" Rigol/Siglent scopes, a probe connection is worth much less than the probe connection of a Lecroy, Agilent or Tektronix scope. Since who really wants to buy an active/current/differential probe from Rigol or Siglent?
I do, as I don't really feel like wasting money on massively overpriced products from "A" brands just so some random dude from the Internet would be happy.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 20, 2018, 08:36:17 pm
Fine, I agree with your point about active/current/differential probes. In fact the cost like or more than the oscilloscope we are talking about.
The point is that in recent years the price of oscilloscopes has dropped but not the price of the probes. in fact (for example) Micsig has had a good success with the differential probes, but for high performance and current probes we are still far away. maybe there is more technology in the probes than in the oscilloscopes? we will see what will happen in the coming years and who will be the first manufacturer that will bring true professional probes to the market at a price that is accessible to everyone.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 20, 2018, 08:45:03 pm
The point is that used Tektronix/Agilent/Keysight/Lecroy probes can be found for a fraction of the original price and thus having an according probe connector is worth a lot. There is no market for used Rigol/Siglent active probes though and most probably there won't be one in the next years if ever.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 20, 2018, 08:48:56 pm
That's offtopic and was discussed in any possible depth before but it should be obvious for anybody that it's nonsense to think a standalone Siglent would be anyway near the result of the (unequal) cooperation with Lecroy.
And you overlook how Rigol got started with a similar relationship with a A brand manufacturer ?  :-//

Quote
Since who really wants to buy an active/current/differential probe from Rigol or Siglent?
So you're not aware they come from a 3rd party supplier just like many of the probes from A brands ?


Things aren't always as they seem.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 20, 2018, 09:07:07 pm
And you overlook how Rigol got started with a similar relationship with a A brand manufacturer ?  :-//
I don't. Yet nobody by his/her senses would think that Rigol has reached the level of Keysight yet in terms of quality, reliability, service, etc.
Just Rigol needs to realize that there is a long way to go looking at their prizes.

Quote
So you're not aware they come from a 3rd party supplier just like many of the probes from A brands ?
That's partly true for the new or low level stuff, usually not for the older or very expensive probes. Even the newer branded probes tend to have different specs than free market versions. Whatever that means.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 20, 2018, 09:24:12 pm
And you overlook how Rigol got started with a similar relationship with a A brand manufacturer ?  :-//
I don't. Yet nobody by his/her senses would think that Rigol has reached the level of Keysight yet in terms of quality, reliability, service, etc.
Just Rigol needs to realize that there is a long way to go looking at their prizes.
Yeah, just like it took the A brands some decades to get where they are today and it's taken the B and C brands little more than one decade.

So you're not aware they come from a 3rd party supplier just like many of the probes from A brands ?
That's partly true for the new or low level stuff, usually not for the older or very expensive probes. Even the newer branded probes tend to have different specs than free market versions. Whatever that means.
Agreed.
Fan of the old Tek passive current probes myself.....no bloody proprietary connector !
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 20, 2018, 09:26:53 pm
I don't. Yet nobody by his/her senses would think that Rigol has reached the level of Keysight yet in terms of quality, reliability, service, etc.
Just Rigol needs to realize that there is a long way to go looking at their prizes.

I would argue that quality and reliability is on par with A brands.
They don't have features (math, analysis, PC software that is subpar), and they don't have marketing and what I call deep support (support in solutions and such).
Not even all A brands have ecosystem as developed as Keysight.

And for prices, what's with all the fuss? Prices ar funny animals, they go down easy, and then won't go up even if product is worth it. Once you drop prices and customers see you can work at that price point, they will punish you if you try to rise prices, even if it was fair increase. That is why you come out with a new product with prices that are higher and then you see how well it does, what competition does and adjust it on the fly...

I personally thing new series from Rigol are not finished products, options and function vise. They will probably develop them further, how much and how well remains to be seen.
And also remains to be seen how will prices move. Last time, it was Siglent that forced them to to drop prices for 1000Z and to include all protocols.. And Siglent 5000 series will compete with 7000 and 8000. And games continue..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 20, 2018, 09:45:52 pm
Rigol = Hackable.  Thats there value proposition.  If they have removed that in the 5000/7000 then  they are no longer interesting and will onto another keysight.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 20, 2018, 09:47:00 pm
Actually, Lecroy offers two new Lowcost Models in their portfolio.
Both are from Siglent, they put a LeCroy Sticker on it and double the Price....Class A Brand.. ;)
Today I play around with my SDS-1104XE from Siglent - Enhanced Resolution like the LeCroys, stable PWM visibility and a free adjustable measuring-gate….Big Points, even if you own a LeCroy WS 3000 Series scope.
We own one since 01/2018.
It´s slow, it freezes sometimes and do not have a free adjustable measuring-gate.
A shame for a so called Class-A Brand.
I´m very curious about the 5000 Rigol if this one can beat the tiny Siglent SDS 1104 which impress me much so far.
By the way, many LeCroy Products were/are labelled 3rd Party Brands, like Entry-Level Scopes or Measure Accesoires like Differential Probes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Towger on November 20, 2018, 10:19:33 pm


I don't. Yet nobody by his/her senses would think that Rigol has reached the level of Keysight yet in terms of quality, reliability, service, etc.

I would argue that quality and reliability is on par with A brands.

With all the reports of faulty memory on the current range of Keysight scopes.  I would argue that Rigols are actually more reliable!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on November 20, 2018, 10:33:51 pm
Agreed.

Then again I don't think there is such a thing as a reliable scope out there from my experience :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 20, 2018, 10:38:28 pm
Agreed.

Then again I don't think there is such a thing as a reliable scope out there from my experience :)
What's more important is how companies deal with issues.
Keysight fixed the memory issue and I believe will also fix any out-of-warranty scopes with this issue free.
AFAIK Keysight also recalibrate any scopes that pass through their repair dept.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 20, 2018, 10:57:16 pm
The only thing here that somewhat matters for the Rigol 7000/8000 discussion (in an MSO5000 thread ;) ) is that obviously even for the "high end" Rigol/Siglent scopes, a probe connection is worth much less than the probe connection of a Lecroy, Agilent or Tektronix scope. Since who really wants to buy an active/current/differential probe from Rigol or Siglent?
I do, as I don't really feel like wasting money on massively overpriced products from "A" brands just so some random dude from the Internet would be happy.
But the equipment from the A-brands works and if there are teething problems it gets fixed even if it means taking a boat load of devices back. I'm done buying B-brands after being burned a couple of times already. At some point I run into the limitations which require me to buy the A-brand equipment anyway.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on November 20, 2018, 11:06:38 pm
Agreed.

Then again I don't think there is such a thing as a reliable scope out there from my experience :)
What's more important is how companies deal with issues.
Keysight fixed the memory issue and I believe will also fix any out-of-warranty scopes with this issue free.
AFAIK Keysight also recalibrate any scopes that pass through their repair dept.

That is exactly it. One of the joys with Keysight is being able to just phone up Keysight, at least here in the UK and have someone helpful instantly. The three times I've had to call them they have been perfect. Can't say that for any other vendors.

Also if you rely on the kit, work on the basis that it will fail the day after the warranty expires and any time it lasts after that is a financial blessing :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 21, 2018, 08:16:04 am
What's more important is how companies deal with issues.
Keysight fixed the memory issue and I believe will also fix any out-of-warranty scopes with this issue free.

Siglent were very responsive sending out little bags of capacitors to customers after they forgot to to put them inside the 'scopes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 21, 2018, 04:56:37 pm
I'm wondering if Logic Probe is just a bunch of wires and one can use this feature without actually buying the logic probe...
The socket in MSO5000 unit looks like one can just insert hand-made pins directly into the socket...

The logic probe head almost always includes something like a differential line receiver for each signal to drive the low impedance cable back to the oscilloscope.  In older ones, this was commonly an FET buffer followed by a comparator.

The only real trick with this is that high input impedance comparators are a contradiction so full integration is difficult or impossible so separate buffering and comparator stages are required for a high impedance input.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 21, 2018, 05:07:58 pm
I'm wondering if Rigol is allowed to use AES encryption on the firmware. There might be export restrictions. I'm pretty sure the NSA and similar security agencies will want to examine the firmware for any hidden forms of cyber attack.

AES encryption is a publiclly available algorithm, so, not sure how export restrictions stop anything.   The Xilinx chipset that is running the CPU is made in Taiwan.    The NSA last time i looked did'nt have much power in taiwan.

The US Commerce Department handles export permits for products containing encryption but that has nothing to do with imports which is why so many products which use encryption moved development outside of the US.  As far as I know, this applies to products using AES.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: asmi on November 21, 2018, 05:46:52 pm
But the equipment from the A-brands works and if there are teething problems it gets fixed even if it means taking a boat load of devices back. I'm done buying B-brands after being burned a couple of times already. At some point I run into the limitations which require me to buy the A-brand equipment anyway.
I never had any issues with "B" brands' equipment, and in any case would never waste money on overpriced stuff from "A" brands - it least until prices become reasonable.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: lukier on November 21, 2018, 05:53:48 pm
The US Commerce Department handles export permits for products containing encryption but that has nothing to do with imports which is why so many products which use encryption moved development outside of the US.  As far as I know, this applies to products using AES.

I'm not 100% sure, but it is probably not only US DoC, Wassenaar Arrangement also puts some constraints on cypto and it was ratified by much more countries than just the US.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 21, 2018, 06:32:21 pm
I'm wondering if Logic Probe is just a bunch of wires and one can use this feature without actually buying the logic probe...
The socket in MSO5000 unit looks like one can just insert hand-made pins directly into the socket...

Short answer: no.

It's much more than wires in the little add-on box, they're full of comparators, controller chips, voltage references, etc.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 21, 2018, 07:14:51 pm
But the equipment from the A-brands works and if there are teething problems it gets fixed even if it means taking a boat load of devices back. I'm done buying B-brands after being burned a couple of times already. At some point I run into the limitations which require me to buy the A-brand equipment anyway.
I never had any issues with "B" brands' equipment, and in any case would never waste money on overpriced stuff from "A" brands - it least until prices become reasonable.
Then you never have handled a good tool. Like I wrote: I got burned a few times already. The latest example is needing a good function generator which can synchronise two outputs for real. The B-brands only work for 90%. Great if you only need 90% but when you need the last 10% then it is going to cost you money twice.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: asmi on November 21, 2018, 09:44:44 pm
but when you need the last 10% then it is going to cost you money twice.
Nope, I will find a way to make do with the tools I have. I pay for that stuff with my own money, and not a single cent from my wallet will ever go to "A" brands until they change their pricing policy. And no, I don't buy used stuff as a matter of principle.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 21, 2018, 09:56:45 pm
Quote
The latest example is needing a good function generator which can synchronise two outputs for real.

Hm?


If I set one channel with "Align Phase" (Siglent/Rigol Function Generator), on the scope there´s no deviation between the 2 channels visible..and measureable (with scope).

Otherwise, a Lecroy WavePro scope has an deviation (timebase)of 1ppm/year, the "biggest" "Class-B" Scopes reaching 25ppm....seems really worse against the WavePro - but it´s always a matter of what You really need in the case.
As a hobbyist…
Professionals do not mind the budget.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 21, 2018, 10:08:19 pm
Quote
The latest example is needing a good function generator which can synchronise two outputs for real.

Hm?

If I set one channel with "Align Phase" (Siglent/Rigol Function Generator), on the scope there´s no deviation between the 2 channels visible..and measureable (with scope).
Well there are B-brand generators out there which can't do that despite having such a setting. My specific purpose is to simulate 10MHz and 1 PPS signal like it comes from a time reference.

@asmi: that is great but at some point you'll realise 'making do' takes time away from doing something meaningful and makes getting where you want to go less enjoyable.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: jCandlish on November 22, 2018, 07:36:22 am
I'm expecting they will plug that gap after having to give away so much functionality on the 1000z.

Huh? You don't think they "allowed" it? It wouldn't have sold otherwise.

The previous generation worked the same way (DS1052E was hackable).

Rigol could very easily make life miserable for anybody publishing information on how to circumvent their crypto under the DCMA.

Recovering a hidden private key is more fun than spending time in the legal system.

.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 22, 2018, 08:59:52 am
I'm expecting they will plug that gap after having to give away so much functionality on the 1000z.

Huh? You don't think they "allowed" it? It wouldn't have sold otherwise.

The previous generation worked the same way (DS1052E was hackable).

Rigol could very easily make life miserable for anybody publishing information on how to circumvent their crypto under the DCMA.

Depends where that info is hosted.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 22, 2018, 09:17:31 am
Rigol could very easily make life miserable for anybody publishing information on how to circumvent their crypto under the DCMA.

Really? The entire legal weight of the MAFIAA hasn't managed to shut down The Pirate Bay yet.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on November 22, 2018, 09:24:38 am
Someone will just keep posting it on pastebin or something anyway. Good luck killing that :-//

DMCA is mostly only useful for search delisting. And you can look at the recorded DMCA complaints on the bottom of the Google page, open them up and see the listed URLs anyway.  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: jCandlish on November 22, 2018, 10:24:26 am
Rigol could very easily make life miserable for anybody publishing information on how to circumvent their crypto under the DCMA.

Really? The entire legal weight of the MAFIAA hasn't managed to shut down The Pirate Bay yet.

In spite of making life a living hell for many they chose to prosecute.



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: asmi on November 22, 2018, 03:14:22 pm
@asmi: that is great but at some point you'll realise 'making do' takes time away from doing something meaningful and makes getting where you want to go less enjoyable.
No, I like challenges, besides even now I'm working with MGT links running at 6Gbps, and I will never be able to afford TE that can work at that kind of frequency.
What I don't understand is if you aren't interested in "B" brands' equipment - why you're ever present in threads discussing them? Is it some kind of self-torture, or subconsciously you do think that you did wasted money on "A" brands stuff so you need to keep trashing "B" brands to mute that inner voice of reason? ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 22, 2018, 07:19:43 pm
@asmi: that is great but at some point you'll realise 'making do' takes time away from doing something meaningful and makes getting where you want to go less enjoyable.
No, I like challenges, besides even now I'm working with MGT links running at 6Gbps, and I will never be able to afford TE that can work at that kind of frequency.
What I don't understand is if you aren't interested in "B" brands' equipment - why you're ever present in threads discussing them? Is it some kind of self-torture, or subconsciously you do think that you did wasted money on "A" brands stuff so you need to keep trashing "B" brands to mute that inner voice of reason? ;D
No, just interested in what is coming up next and warn people not to get overly excited about the price on the sticker for something which looks cheaper on paper but turns out to be a dud. However at some point the B-brands have to catch up. That is taking longer than expected and it seems that competing on price isn't going to happen anyway (look at Rigol's MSO7000 pricing). It takes a lot of engineering to create a decent piece of equipment and sales volumes aren't very high.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 25, 2018, 10:08:02 pm
Still waiting of an answer from Batronix…
It makes no sense that all options are for free till 12/31/2018 for the 7000 series, but for the 5000 not.
I´m very curious about some abilities of the Rigol 5000..
Can they display a PWM pulse stable (Rigol 1054Z doesn´t), do they have a free adjustable measure-gate, are the serial decoding functions hardware-based, will a Hi-Res/Enhanced Resolution Mode via firmware update come soon or ever, can they display the math function only ( even really old LeCroy models can do it)....
If they fulfill this requirements, I won´t care of the Mickey Mouse Design....(yes it is).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 26, 2018, 04:17:50 am
how is the hacking effort going?  Im going to pick one up in the USA in Jan.  I've not done any reverse engineering like this before, but i suspect this is going to be signifincatly harder than the earlier models.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: supercilious on November 26, 2018, 09:26:55 am
Does anyone have any information about the ethernet or USB connectivity speed? How fast is the scope at transferring the 100M samples to a PC via SCPI or some other interface? This has been a huge bottleneck for Rigol instruments in the past.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on November 26, 2018, 09:56:57 am
Still waiting of an answer from Batronix…
It makes no sense that all options are for free till 12/31/2018 for the 7000 series, but for the 5000 not.

1) the 7000 is about 3x the cost of the 5000
2) the 5000 has a bundle deal that gives you, like, everything. For not much more than the cost of one upgrade... While the 7000 paid upgrade situation is way more expensive.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 26, 2018, 09:59:38 am
The RIGOL MSO5000-BND function and application bundle option includes for EURO 599 + VAT
MSO5000-COMP PC serial bus trigger and analysis (RS232/UART)
MSO5000-EMBD Embedded serial bus trigger and analysis (I2C and SPI)
MSO5000-AUTO Auto serial bus trigger and analysis (CAN and LIN)
MSO5000-FLEX FlexRay serial bus trigger and analysis (FlexRay)
MSO5000-AUDIO Audio serial bus trigger and analysis (I2S) 4 channels models only
MSO5000-AERO MIL-STD-1553 serial bus trigger and analysis (MIL-STD-1553)
MSO5000-AWG Dual-channel 25 MHz arbitrary waveform generator
MSO5000-PWR Built-in Power Analysis
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 26, 2018, 06:08:56 pm
And again, all of this is free for the DS7000/MSO7000 (https://www.rigolna.com/promos/) at the moment.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 26, 2018, 06:09:54 pm
And again, all of this is free for the DS7000/MSO7000 (https://www.rigolna.com/promos/) at the moment.
yes till the end of the year
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on November 27, 2018, 12:01:19 pm
And again, all of this is free for the DS7000/MSO7000 (https://www.rigolna.com/promos/) at the moment.
Well yeah... You mean, for 3x the price of the equivalent 5000 plus the paid for bundle...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 27, 2018, 06:39:19 pm
I'm not quite sure what your "3x price" statement is based on, but as stated before, the price difference between an MSO5014 with options bundle (1307.81€+712.81€=2020.62€) and a DS7014 with (free) options bundle (2616.81€) is less than 600€ (596.19€). You might argue that the DS7014 isn't an MSO, but actually the MSO5014 isn't really either, as the probe has to be bought separately (355.81€).

And again, all of this is free for the DS7000/MSO7000 (https://www.rigolna.com/promos/) at the moment.
Well yeah... You mean, for 3x the price of the equivalent 5000 plus the paid for bundle...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 27, 2018, 06:40:53 pm
I'm not quite sure what your "3x price" statement is based on, but as stated before, the price difference between an MSO5014 with options bundle (1307.81€+712.81€=2020.62€) and a DS7014 with (free) options bundle (2616.81€) is less than 600€ (596.19€). You might argue that the DS7014 isn't an MSO, but actually the MSO5014 isn't really either, as the probe has to be bought separately (355.81€).

And again, all of this is free for the DS7000/MSO7000 (https://www.rigolna.com/promos/) at the moment.
Well yeah... You mean, for 3x the price of the equivalent 5000 plus the paid for bundle...
DS7000 is also missing AWG channels, only available on MSO7000
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 27, 2018, 06:55:42 pm
True. Yet IMHO built-in AWGs are usually somewhat gimmicky (typically only 5V and a few kSa memory) and nothing I would put pay any considerable amount of money for.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 27, 2018, 06:57:34 pm
can be useful when bode plot feature is available
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 28, 2018, 07:56:05 pm
The Siglent SDS 1104X-E does have the bode plot function (only in combination with Sigelent Generators).

News from Batronix/Rigol:

Batronix told me, the missing Hi-Res Mode on 5000/7000 is known and would be fixed, probably..
I also did a request by Rigol/Germany if there is a promotion offer planned for the 5000 just like by the 7000.
Today´s  answer was no, there were no offers planned for the MSO 5000 series.
Anyway, I´ve ordered a MSO5074, should arrive in 2-3 days.
The option bundle will be ordered when I´m confident with the scope.



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 28, 2018, 08:07:33 pm
I think you will enjoy the MSO5. It’s a great instrument. We already delivered many units and so far no “trouble”. Let us know your opinion when you get it!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 28, 2018, 09:12:03 pm
The Siglent SDS 1104X-E does have the bode plot function (only in combination with Sigelent Generators).
Officially yes.

But behind the scenes:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-bode-plot-with-non-siglent-awg/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-bode-plot-with-non-siglent-awg/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 28, 2018, 09:23:07 pm
Quote
Let us know your opinion when you get it!

I think, I´ll test it at work (Testfield technician) - much more capabilities as at home.
My impressions will be written here.

Quote
But behind the scenes:

Ahhh...why it doesn´t wonder me.... :D
I bought a Siglent awg…  ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 28, 2018, 09:59:10 pm
I think you will enjoy the MSO5. It’s a great instrument. We already delivered many units and so far no “trouble”. Let us know your opinion when you get it!

I would enjoy it if it is hackable? Do you know if it can be done.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TopLoser on November 28, 2018, 10:08:52 pm
I think you will enjoy the MSO5. It’s a great instrument. We already delivered many units and so far no “trouble”. Let us know your opinion when you get it!

I would enjoy it if it is hackable? Do you know if it can be done.

There’s one on my desk I don’t mind opening up and doing whatever anybody suggests to investigate further...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 28, 2018, 10:23:19 pm
True. Yet IMHO built-in AWGs are usually somewhat gimmicky (typically only 5V and a few kSa memory) and nothing I would put pay any considerable amount of money for.


The rigol awg : 5Vpp/2.5pp at 50ohms, THD Sinewave 1% - My Siglent awg stays here…

@TopLoser:

Which model do you have ?
Maybe you see a difference to yours in Dave´s teardown vid (350Mhz)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TopLoser on November 28, 2018, 11:11:12 pm
@TopLoser:

Which model do you have ?
Maybe you see a difference to yours in Dave´s teardown vid (350Mhz)

4 channel 70MHz, bought from Batter Fly when they had a 10% discount.

I’m sure there won’t be a hardware difference otherwise the licence upgrades to 350MHz wouldn’t be feasible? But I can look.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 29, 2018, 01:41:28 am
I think you will enjoy the MSO5. It’s a great instrument. We already delivered many units and so far no “trouble”. Let us know your opinion when you get it!

I would enjoy it if it is hackable? Do you know if it can be done.

I'm curious too, any updates yet?
Does a license file and serial number help any hackers out there with RE? ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: FERCSA on November 29, 2018, 01:59:04 am
I'm curious too, any updates yet?
Does a license file and serial number help any hackers out there with RE? ;D

Sure! If someone takes the time and rip the fw to pieces, the licence file can be integrated or just changing the SN, then manually apply the licence.. it should be doable.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 29, 2018, 06:56:43 am
I think you will enjoy the MSO5. It’s a great instrument. We already delivered many units and so far no “trouble”. Let us know your opinion when you get it!

I would enjoy it if it is hackable? Do you know if it can be done.

I'm curious too, any updates yet?
Does a license file and serial number help any hackers out there with RE? ;D

given the FPGA they have in there, they could be using secure code, and the licence file may be encrypted.   What does the license file look like?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 29, 2018, 09:40:33 pm
Bug Bonanza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDGsZcAWgL8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDGsZcAWgL8)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on November 29, 2018, 10:08:12 pm
I would prefer a red, green, blue and yellow trace. Why is there a pink trace???
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 29, 2018, 10:12:46 pm
Bug Bonanza

Thanks for the vid Dave, hope the Rigol guys see it too….
What FW Version you got ?
My 5000 will arrive on Saturday, so I can compare with it.

(Edit: After posting there´s no fallback to the thread, that´s irritating)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 29, 2018, 10:14:38 pm
I would prefer a red, green, blue and yellow trace. Why is there a pink trace???

Because we are inclusive.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 29, 2018, 10:23:03 pm
People ask about differences between 'A' brand and 'B' brand scopes. That video sums it up pretty well. Poor attention to detail. Mostly not even bugs, just bad design - copying competitors without really understanding what's important.
How did anyone think that decode display makes sense? - useless "D:" marks wasting over half the screen space, unuseably small gaps between logic channels, nonfunctional colour selection, poor UI choices (label entry).
 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 29, 2018, 10:42:29 pm
What FW Version you got ?

I show it in the video at 33:21
1.01.02.03
Hardware 1.00.000
I had later firmware but could not figure out how to load it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 29, 2018, 10:48:09 pm
People ask about differences between 'A' brand and 'B' brand scopes. That video sums it up pretty well. Poor attention to detail. Mostly not even bugs, just bad design - copying competitors without really understanding what's important.
How did anyone think that decode display makes sense? - useless "D:" marks wasting over half the screen space, unuseably small gaps between logic channels, nonfunctional colour selection, poor UI choices (label entry).

Yep, and this is just the stuff I happened to play with.
Started the video wanting to show some features, but I kept finding little niggly things everywhere.
More advanced scopes like these need a lot of attention to detail in software, and it's a huge job.
I hope it gets better.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 29, 2018, 10:49:24 pm
Quote
Mostly not even bugs, just bad design

That´s the point, bugs are everywhere.

For example LeCroy Wavesurfer 3000 series….many FW updates so far, although it´s a "A" - brand.

Teledyne told me once, this is a value scope and this describe it very well.

Have a look on the prices for it...for Lecroy it´s cheap stuff.
For Rigol and Co. this would be the top of the end.
And that´s it.
It´s hobbyist class.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: orion242 on November 30, 2018, 03:26:58 am
bugs are everywhere.

Yea wow.

Unless they fix things, even if its hackable...do you really want to always second guess your gear?  Looks like an endless time suck to save a few bucks...

Thanks for the videos Dave!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 30, 2018, 03:28:42 am
Might be OK in two or three years. Then again, there's the 4000/6000 track record. :-//
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Bud on November 30, 2018, 04:21:49 am
It´s hobbyist class.

My hobby time is valuable as i do not have much time for it. Therefore i  never buy chinese garbage. When hobbying i want to focus on my circuit, not waste my life fighting with this piece of shit.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 30, 2018, 04:56:20 am
It´s hobbyist class.

My hobby time is valuable as i do not have much time for it. Therefore i  never buy chinese garbage. When hobbying i want to focus on my circuit, not waste my life fighting with this piece of shit.

You're quite happy to waste your life flaming them every chance you get, though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2018, 10:40:30 am
I would prefer a red, green, blue and yellow trace. Why is there a pink trace???

Because "engineering".

a) It's magenta, not pink.

b) The first three colors are yellow, cyan, magenta because they're the three most visible colors on an RGB screen.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2018, 11:13:23 am
What FW Version you got ?

It's in the video: 01.01.02.03

(which seems like an early, pre-release number to me)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TopLoser on November 30, 2018, 04:13:17 pm
What FW Version you got ?

It's in the video: 01.01.02.03

(which seems like an early, pre-release number to me)

That's the version scopes are shipping with.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2018, 05:43:06 pm
(which seems like an early, pre-release number to me)

That's the version scopes are shipping with.

Well, that's the way of managers/bosses.  :-//

Let's hope the first update won't take long.

(And no, it's not just Rigol that does this, every 'scope released in recent memory seems to do the same)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 30, 2018, 05:55:08 pm
So..
This piece of sh...ehhh.. rigol has arrived  ;)
I will give it time to acclimate to room temperature..
Looks bigger as in Daves vid, well build, all in all it makes me curious for the first use.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 30, 2018, 08:25:07 pm
Quote
That's the version scopes are shipping with.

Yep, got the same version...And yes, it must be a very early version:
Some functions are not avaible and "greyed out", perhaps functional with an option/firmware upgrade, seems normal to me.
BUT:
"Options Install", "Online Upgrade" and "Local Upgrade" are also deactivated... :-//


By the way, display looks nice, FFT can be displayed alone, boot time is looong, fan is annoying.
But my first impressions are mostly positive, will take it to work on monday, for real testing.


Edit:

For the "wishlist" : Waveform output format: Only .bin and .csv avaible, Mathlab and Mathcad must be added....hopefully








Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on November 30, 2018, 09:06:46 pm
Hopefully these bugs will be fixable, but its almost all in the logic analyzer, which honestly I don't care much about. As Dave says, for $400, you can get a much nicer PC based unit.

For the "wishlist" : Waveform output format: Only .bin and .csv avaible, Mathlab and Mathcad must be added....hopefully

You can import csv into matlab though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 30, 2018, 10:04:37 pm
Ah, ok.
Saw it on our Wavesurfer 3024, you can choose between csv, bin, matlab, matcad - and then, between frequency or amplitude or both...nice to have.

Quote
Hopefully these bugs will be fixable, but its almost all in the logic analyzer, which honestly I don't care much about


Me too, in case of the logic analyzer, but proper decoding of for example SPI will be important for me/us.
Further the missing Hi-Res Mode, but we shouldn´t forget the fact, this scope is really new, maybe too early released.
Rigol let the customer find out the bugs...
And they´re not alone with this policy.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: glenenglish on December 01, 2018, 10:04:43 pm
Considering that this is a pre production release, and beta software, this is a pretty good result.
The sample rate is the big diff to other scopes. High sample rate rules for looking at glitches and bus fights
High sample rates help the diagnosis of bus fights .

I strenuously disagree with the assertion in the video that the R&S might be a better value proposition.
No chance ! Dave how  (the hell) did you formulate this idea ?

The sample rate is king. 4Gsps in 2ch mode, 2Gsps in four channel mode puts this scope into the realms of the big boys.

R&S RTM3004 :  4 channel mode SR is 2.5Gsps USD4250. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps

R&S RTB2000 :4 channel mode SR is  1.25 Gsps USD2400. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps.

I have ordered a 100 MHz one from Emona, they have 70 and 100 MHz scopes in their first shipment.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 01, 2018, 10:39:01 pm
Considering that this is a pre production release, and beta software, this is a pretty good result.
The sample rate is the big diff to other scopes. High sample rate rules for looking at glitches and bus fights
High sample rates help the diagnosis of bus fights .

I strenuously disagree with the assertion in the video that the R&S might be a better value proposition.
No chance ! Dave how  (the hell) did you formulate this idea ?
The sample rate is king. 4Gsps in 2ch mode, 2Gsps in four channel mode puts this scope into the realms of the big boys.
Not really. The limited bandwidth kills a spike long before you see it being sampled. No matter what the samplerate is, ultimately the bandwidth dictates what you see and what you don't see. Having an excessively high samplerate just fills the memory quicker with data which has no additional information. For sin x/x reconstruction to work a samplerate of 2.5 times the bandwidth is enough. If you sample any faster you won't get any additional information.
Quote
R&S RTM3004 :  4 channel mode SR is 1.25Gsps USD4250. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps

R&S RTB2000 :4 channel mode SR is  1.25 Gsps USD2400. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps.

I have ordered a 100 MHz one from Emona, they have 70 and 100 MHz scopes in their first shipment.
You got the numbers wrong for the RTM3004. In 4 channel mode it has 2.5Gsps (and 1GHz bandwidth on the top model).

If you want to look at glitches and timing errors in digital systems then a used high-end logic analyser is a much better buy. It will have very high samplerates and more bandwidth for peanuts.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on December 01, 2018, 10:42:35 pm
Considering that this is a pre production release, and beta software, this is a pretty good result.
The sample rate is the big diff to other scopes. High sample rate rules for looking at glitches and bus fights
High sample rates help the diagnosis of bus fights .

I strenuously disagree with the assertion in the video that the R&S might be a better value proposition.
No chance ! Dave how  (the hell) did you formulate this idea ?

The sample rate is king. 4Gsps in 2ch mode, 2Gsps in four channel mode puts this scope into the realms of the big boys.

R&S RTM3004 :  4 channel mode SR is 1.25Gsps USD4250. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps

R&S RTB2000 :4 channel mode SR is  1.25 Gsps USD2400. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps.

I have ordered a 100 MHz one from Emona, they have 70 and 100 MHz scopes in their first shipment.

Dave's is the same hardware and firmware that is shipping with production models - so you can't call it pre-production or beta. Or at least you shouldn't. It is an early release that is clearly full of bugs/usability issues though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 01, 2018, 10:53:49 pm
Quote
The sample rate is king. 4Gsps in 2ch mode, 2Gsps in four channel mode puts this scope into the realms of the big boys.

The hardware seems really mighty with the price in mind, if they optimize the software, it would be a killer.
But R&S with their RTB2000 will still be my favourite under the hobbyist-scopes.
10bit resolution, the fantastic looking big display...unfortunately 2.5x the price of a MSO5074 and the options are expensive.
Rigol itself compares the 5000 against Tek and Keysight their 2000s models.



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 01, 2018, 11:29:57 pm
Quote
The sample rate is king. 4Gsps in 2ch mode, 2Gsps in four channel mode puts this scope into the realms of the big boys.

The hardware seems really mighty with the price in mind, if they optimize the software, it would be a killer.
But R&S with their RTB2000 will still be my favourite under the hobbyist-scopes.
10bit resolution, the fantastic looking big display...unfortunately 2.5x the price of a MSO5074 and the options are expensive.
Rigol itself compares the 5000 against Tek and Keysight their 2000s models.
That may be but you have to look beyond the price and do some serious testing to see if the MSO5000 meets your needs for now and in the foreseable future. And I don't mean after Rigol has fixed the bugs but right now when you can still return it with no hassle. A couple of years ago I made the mistake to trust a B-brand to fix the bugs quickly but that ended up with me having to throw 2000 euros into the trash AND pay for a working oscilloscope on top of that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 01, 2018, 11:47:38 pm
Therefore I will test it at work.

And what You say about B-brands:

LeCroy surely counts to the A´s, but their WS 3024 is the best example that the name doesn´t automatically guaranteed confidence in every way.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 01, 2018, 11:59:13 pm
Therefore I will test it at work.

And what You say about B-brands:

LeCroy surely counts to the A´s, but their WS 3024 is the best example that the name doesn´t automatically guaranteed confidence in every way.
I wouldn't call Lecroy a real A-brand. The stuff Lecroy designs themselves is OK-ish (nice features but the hardware isn't always that good) but they also rebrand a lot of low-end stuff which isn't at the level you'd expect from an A-brand when it comes to the firmware. At the low end Lecroy tries to fill their portfolio so they can offer one-stop shopping. What I hear and see around me is that people buy Lecroy mostly for doing signal analysis but it is at the bottom of their list.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: lukier on December 02, 2018, 12:41:16 am
LeCroy surely counts to the A´s, but their WS 3024 is the best example that the name doesn´t automatically guaranteed confidence in every way.

I think WS3024 is really Siglent, not real LeCroy.

I wouldn't call Lecroy a real A-brand. The stuff Lecroy designs themselves is OK-ish (nice features but the hardware isn't always that good) but they also rebrand a lot of low-end stuff which isn't at the level you'd expect from an A-brand when it comes to the firmware. What I hear and see around me is that people buy Lecroy mostly for doing signal analysis but it is at the bottom of their list.

I have old WaveRunner 6100A and it is A-brand whatever it means. It is an old scope (introduced in 2004) and still running circles around most modern scopes like KS 3000/4000/6000 or R&S RTO2000/RTM3000 (before I got it I wanted to buy MSOX3014T but both distributors were rather clueless so I went to eBay instead and saved some money that I've spent on various active probes):

Probably the only drawback is the lack of real low noise FE & ADC like R&S has, although LeCroy has pretty clever 11 bit mode called ERES:
http://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires (http://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires)

Before the recent Keysight UXR it was LeCroy who had 100 GHz scope since 2014, so not calling it A-brand is a bit rich in my opinion.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 02, 2018, 12:51:09 am
A typical A-brand has a portfolio for which they designed most of the products themselves. Having all the intimate knowledge about the product means problems can be solved quickly. Lecroy has never done that. They design mostly high-end gear with very nice features and augment their portfolio with rebadges from other brands. The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: lukier on December 02, 2018, 12:57:15 am
A typical A-brand has a portfolio for which they designed most of the products themselves. Having all the intimate knowledge about the product means problems can be solved quickly. Lecroy has never done that. They design mostly high-end gear with very nice features and augment their portfolio with rebadges from other brands. The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.

I also don't get why LeCroy insists on rebadging stuff, their brand is worth more than their markup on Siglent, but it is common market trend unfortunately.

By your logic you cannot call Keithley (rebadges Itech and Picotest) or Keysight (rebadged Rigol or Preamble probes) A-brands as well.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on December 02, 2018, 01:24:43 am
LeCroy surely counts to the A´s, but their WS 3024 is the best example that the name doesn´t automatically guaranteed confidence in every way.

I think WS3024 is really Siglent, not real LeCroy.
The LeCroy equivalent, a Siglent SDS3000 screenshot suggests otherwise:

(http://www.siglent.com/Uploadfile/image/20140725/20140725093245_5105.jpg)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: lukier on December 02, 2018, 01:34:51 am
The LeCroy equivalent, a Siglent SDS3000 screenshot suggests otherwise:

So Siglent made the HW and LeCroy gave the X-Stream software?

Edit: it looks more LeCroy than Siglent, LeCroy SW, LeCroy probe interface, so maybe it is like it was with Iwatsu - our design, you guys manufacture that?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 02, 2018, 01:40:37 am
A typical A-brand has a portfolio for which they designed most of the products themselves. Having all the intimate knowledge about the product means problems can be solved quickly. Lecroy has never done that. They design mostly high-end gear with very nice features and augment their portfolio with rebadges from other brands. The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.

I also don't get why LeCroy insists on rebadging stuff, their brand is worth more than their markup on Siglent, but it is common market trend unfortunately.

By your logic you cannot call Keithley (rebadges Itech and Picotest) or Keysight (rebadged Rigol or Preamble probes) A-brands as well.
You have to look at the big picture. If a company is really better at making probes then it makes more sense to rebadge. Also Keysight has stopped rebadging Rigols a long time ago. Probably due to quality control and serviceability issues.

And Keithley isn't Keithley any more. Fluke, Tektronix and Keithley (and probably a few other T&M brands) are all owned by Danaher which is primarily an investment company with short term goals. There is a lot of rebranding going on at these companies. But not with typical low-end gear like Lecroy does.

Keithley psu:
(https://www.tek.com/sites/default/files/media/image/2260B-ComboShot_SBG_5in_0.jpg)

GW Instek psu:
(https://www.gwinstek.com/upload/website/product/normal/PSW-30-108_17020613243.jpg)

The WS3000 is (AFAIK) a cooperation between Siglent and Lecroy. Siglent did the hardware, Lecroy did the software. Siglent sells them in China and Lecroy sells them in the rest of the world. The new version may be worth looking at as is seems it got a (much needed) speed upgrade. But probably no peak-detect which can bite you in the behind at lower samplerates (especially with short memory settings).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on December 02, 2018, 01:50:31 am
The LeCroy equivalent, a Siglent SDS3000 screenshot suggests otherwise:

So Siglent made the HW and LeCroy gave the X-Stream software?
Essentially correct however right from the get go it was a collaborative effort.
As there was already a relationship with Siglent products branded as LeCroy one can only suspect LeCroy went to Siglent with a 'product spec' in mind and that resulted in the collaboration that produced the SDS3k/WS3k.
That resulted in marketing agreements so that LeCroy had western markets for WS3k models for themselves.
I even inquired about getting a SDS3k for myself but it was declined by Siglent.

Interestingly the upgraded models, SDS3kX still display an association with LeCroy on the display:

(http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/picture/SDS3000X/SDS10.jpg)

Whereas the upcoming SDS5kX models don't:

(http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/picture/SDS5000X/SDS5000X14.png)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: lukier on December 02, 2018, 02:02:36 am
And Keithley isn't Keithley any more. Fluke, Tektronix and Keithley (and probably a few other T&M brands) are all owned by Danaher which is primarily an investment company with short term goals. There is a lot of rebranding going on at these companies.

So LeCroy is not A-brand, Keithley, Fluke and Tektronix are not Keithley anymore so it is only Keysight left then as an A-brand :D (btw, they also rebadged Escort stuff like U3400 or handheld DMMs before they acquired them).

Essentially correct however right from the get go it was a collaborative effort.
As there was already a relationship with Siglent products branded as LeCroy one can only suspect LeCroy went to Siglent with a 'product spec' in mind and that resulted in the collaboration that produced the SDS3k/WS3k.

SDS/WS3 is ARM based, right? So I guess LeCroy had to rewrite all their Windows DCOM crap that X-Stream is made of :D Probably a lot of work.

Edit: disclaimer - I have both LeCroy and Siglent (and some other). My point is that calling LeCroy B-brand is not right by a long shot. Actually, it might be a smart move, because they don't have to spend company resources on the low end stuff and can focus on the serious products.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on December 02, 2018, 03:27:58 am
Essentially correct however right from the get go it was a collaborative effort.
As there was already a relationship with Siglent products branded as LeCroy one can only suspect LeCroy went to Siglent with a 'product spec' in mind and that resulted in the collaboration that produced the SDS3k/WS3k.

SDS/WS3 is ARM based, right? So I guess LeCroy had to rewrite all their Windows DCOM crap that X-Stream is made of :D Probably a lot of work.

Edit: disclaimer - I have both LeCroy and Siglent (and some other). My point is that calling LeCroy B-brand is not right by a long shot. Actually, it might be a smart move, because they don't have to spend company resources on the low end stuff and can focus on the serious products.
Honestly I don't know however Wuerstchenhund in this old thread about them thought they were CE based, see reply # 19:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent_s-new-products-sds3000-series-oscilloscopes/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent_s-new-products-sds3000-series-oscilloscopes/)

Member tv84 in this recent thread has apparently confirmed they are WinCE:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds3000-anyone-has-one/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds3000-anyone-has-one/)

What the new 3kX model runs for an OS is probably just the same with processor upgrades responsible for the much reduced boot times.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on December 02, 2018, 04:01:12 am
who decides what is A brand and a B Brand.  its only in your head.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on December 02, 2018, 04:55:37 am
I agree with nctnico that ownership by Danaher is a good indicator of a B brand.  Given a choice, Fluke and Tektronix would not be my first choice for quality test equipment.

Keysight/Agilent/HP is still an A brand in most respects but even they outsource production of things like oscilloscope probes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on December 02, 2018, 06:14:18 am
who decides what is A brand and a B Brand.  its only in your head.
Yep.

I agree with nctnico that ownership by Danaher is a good indicator of a B brand.  Given a choice, Fluke and Tektronix would not be my first choice for quality test equipment.

Keysight/Agilent/HP is still an A brand in most respects but even they outsource production of things like oscilloscope probes.

What is now is only a snapshot in time. Many of us have seen the rise and fall of all manner of brands so to then well know; 'every dog has its day'.

No brands are without 'issues'......we are all still waiting for miracles.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 02, 2018, 09:24:22 am
Dave's is the same hardware and firmware that is shipping with production models - so you can't call it pre-production or beta.

Why not? I bet all the non-managers at Rigol do.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 02, 2018, 09:30:37 am
A typical A-brand has a portfolio for which they designed most of the products themselves. Having all the intimate knowledge about the product means problems can be solved quickly. Lecroy has never done that. They design mostly high-end gear with very nice features and augment their portfolio with rebadges from other brands. The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.
I also don't get why LeCroy insists on rebadging stuff, their brand is worth more than their markup on Siglent, but it is common market trend unfortunately.

Rigol has been known to write firmware for Agilent/Keysight.  :popcorn:

https://mightyohm.com/blog/2009/11/agilent-dso1000-firmware-update-confirms-rigol-connection/
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 02, 2018, 10:10:29 am
The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.


That may be the reason why the promised Firmware update for the WS3024 still is missing (ask for it 8 months ago, answer was it comes "quick" ).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 02, 2018, 12:20:17 pm
I had a long chat with a LeCroy guy at Electronica, on why you would buy from them and not Siglent. His response was that Lecroy have repair facilities and spares ( board-swap) in Europe and US for quicker servicing, they are rewriting all the manuals, and there are getting some additional approvals, though he didn't know exactly what this covered.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on December 02, 2018, 02:18:39 pm
A typical A-brand has a portfolio for which they designed most of the products themselves. Having all the intimate knowledge about the product means problems can be solved quickly. Lecroy has never done that. They design mostly high-end gear with very nice features and augment their portfolio with rebadges from other brands. The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.
I also don't get why LeCroy insists on rebadging stuff, their brand is worth more than their markup on Siglent, but it is common market trend unfortunately.

Rigol has been known to write firmware for Agilent/Keysight.  :popcorn:

https://mightyohm.com/blog/2009/11/agilent-dso1000-firmware-update-confirms-rigol-connection/
That was way back when Rigol used to manufacture the low end series for Agilent.  Since then, Rigol firmware just got worse.  Actually the DS1102E scope was really nice and very responsive in 2008... not anymore
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on December 02, 2018, 04:34:25 pm
My point is that calling LeCroy B-brand is not right by a long shot. Actually, it might be a smart move, because they don't have to spend company resources on the low end stuff and can focus on the serious products.
Indeed. Actually, Lecroy was and still is the A-brand for DSOs. After all, Walter Lecroy invented the DSO (ignoring Nicolet did some low speed DSO first) and Teledyne Lecroy still defines the bleeding edge of high speed DSOs. Even their upper midrange stuff features 12bit and multiple GHz. So putting them in the same league as Rigol or Siglent shows either a total lack of knowledge or ill will.
And yes, the WS 3000(z) line is the entry line but obviously Lecroy learned from that Wave Ace disaster which was the result of trying to rebrand a Siglent scope without too much effort.
The way of cooperation chosen for the WS3000 is probably the best possible soluton for Lecroy to produce an entry level scope that still is a "real" Lecroy as much as possible with the given price and HW limitations.

Side note: R&S most certainly was and is an A-brand for HF/broadcasting equipment and their high end scopes wre/are most probably competitive to Lecroy in the same price range, but the entry level scopes (like RTB2000/RTM3000/RTA4000 etc.) IMHO are the result of the acquisition of Hameg. And while Hameg certainly created some proper and robust equipment over the decades, they never were considered an A-brand for scopes (or power supplies or whatever) and already reduced production costs before the acquisition by producing their stuff mainly in the Czech Republic.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 02, 2018, 04:48:50 pm
I don't think anyone would question that the current R&S scope range is in the same league as Keysight, and certainly way above the Rigols and Siglents of this world.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 02, 2018, 04:57:07 pm
Quote
And yes, the WS 3000(z) line is the entry line but obviously Lecroy learned from that Wave Ace disaster which was the result of trying to rebrand a Siglent scope without too much effort.
The way of cooperation chosen for the WS3000 is probably the best possible soluton for Lecroy to produce an entry level scope that still is a "real" Lecroy as much as possible with the given price and HW limitations.

I think the wave ace was from Uni-T.
The WS3000 series is very slow - after a few weeks ago we bought our WS3024, the new WS3000Z was launched.
With more "horsepower"...thank you LeCroy :( ( for the 3000Z series a power analyzing option is avaible, for the 3000 not)

Topic:

Playing around with my MSO5074, again.

The noisefloor is sometimes irritating - you know, you feed in an proper signal (from my siglent AWG) and it looks "thick", in normal aquisition mode.
But this is also known by other rigols I had (DS1000Z, DS2000).
PWM couldn´t be displayed "stable", like lecroy and siglent ( ha, ha..) do.
All math function can be displayed alone, without the source channel -  :-+
The mathfunction "Lowpass" irritates me...you can only set the frequency in Mhz ranges - trying to set it to e.g. 1Khz it displays "Over lower".... :-//
Must check it again at work, thought I can filter the sinewave out of the pwm.
Speed general is superb.
The fan, again, is very...very annoying loud  >:(
On my "hitlist" of noisy fans it takes the second place.
First place take the lecroy wavejet with its 40mm fan - you can her it even out of the room....

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 02, 2018, 05:30:31 pm
My point is that calling LeCroy B-brand is not right by a long shot. Actually, it might be a smart move, because they don't have to spend company resources on the low end stuff and can focus on the serious products.
Indeed. Actually, Lecroy was and still is the A-brand for DSOs. After all, Walter Lecroy invented the DSO (ignoring Nicolet did some low speed DSO first) and Teledyne Lecroy still defines the bleeding edge of high speed DSOs. Even their upper midrange stuff features 12bit and multiple GHz. So putting them in the same league as Rigol or Siglent shows either a total lack of knowledge or ill will.
You seem to forget Lecroy is selling Siglent gear. So on one hand you have a company which builds really high-end oscilloscopes and on the other hand sells low end gear. It is like being served a hamburger from McDonalds in a 5 star restaurent. It just doesn't add up.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on December 02, 2018, 05:34:36 pm
I think the wave ace was from Uni-T.
Nope:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/should-i-buy-a-lecroy-wave-ace/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/should-i-buy-a-lecroy-wave-ace/)

The WS3000 series is very slow - after a few weeks ago we bought our WS3024, the new WS3000Z was launched.
With more "horsepower"...thank you LeCroy :( ( for the 3000Z series a power analyzing option is avaible, for the 3000 not)
The WS3000 is painfully slow with large memory depth and low sampling frequency. It's OKish when you reduce sample depth or increase sample frequency.
The "z" update is also supposed to have a better (LED backlit) LCD with capacitive touch.  Actually, I could imagine the WS3000z fixes most of the issues the WS3000.

I don't think anyone would question that the current R&S scope range is in the same league as Keysight, and certainly way above the Rigols and Siglents of this world.
I certainly don't question that. Anyway, "genuine" R&S stuff like RTO2000 or RTP is certainly totally A-brand in the same league as middle/upper Lecroy scopes.
It's just that R&S acquired Hameg to get a foot in the entry level and lower midrange market but IMHO this was an ideal partnership were the current RTB/RTM line combines knowledge from Hameg and R&S to something that is better than the previous Hameg scopes and yet much cheaper than the previous R&S models.
The cooperation between Keysight and Rigol or Lecroy and Siglent was/is way more asymmetrical and still the WS3000 as a result of the Lecroy/Siglent cooperation is more of a Lecroy than a rebranded Siglent.

You seem to forget Lecroy is selling Siglent gear.
Again, this lacks any dedication to the details discussed here in the last years regarding the cooperation of Lecroy with Iwatsu and Siglent. So I guess it's pointless to repeat what was discussed a million times before.
Just believe what you want, but calling Lecroy a B-brand for DSOs is still utter nonsense.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 02, 2018, 06:57:20 pm
Quote
The mathfunction "Lowpass" irritates me...you can only set the frequency in Mhz ranges - trying to set it to e.g. 1Khz it displays "Over lower"....


Test it again, the lowest avaible cutoff frequency depends on the timebase.


(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181202/temp/4ba2rohv.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5289/4ba2rohv_jpg.htm)

By 500µs/div 100Khz lowest cutoff....

For what was it good for ?
If I want to filter out a 400Hz Sinewave from a 10Khz pwm, I would choose 1Khz cutoff LP, but it would never function because in this timebase the cutoff frequency is in mhz range….what the heck ?!
Did I misunderstood the function - or is it a point to fix ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on December 02, 2018, 07:23:32 pm
And I ask again, what qualification do you need to join the AB police?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on December 02, 2018, 07:49:40 pm
And I ask again, what qualification do you need to join the AB police?
None !

Just the ability to keep up with the incidences of test equipment failures here on the leading electronics forum.
NAND corruption, PSU failures etc shouldn't happen in any equipment under 5 yrs old.

User misuse or failure to RTFM is another matter.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 02, 2018, 08:28:21 pm
NAND corruption, PSU failures etc shouldn't happen in any equipment under 5 yrs old.

The real world thinks it's much better to pay half price and accept a tiny chance of failure.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on December 02, 2018, 08:50:32 pm
Problem that comes with this is that a small failure rate tends to come with vocal customers. Look at all the shit Apple get.

Edit: I should say that the stuff is literally disposable pricing now. The whole scope comes in less than a decent vertical plugin for a Tek 7000 would cost today.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 02, 2018, 08:52:36 pm
NAND corruption, PSU failures etc shouldn't happen in any equipment under 5 yrs old.
The real world thinks it's much better to pay half price and accept a tiny chance of failure.
Mistakes are inevitable but there is a big difference between receiving a bag with capacitors (if you are lucky) and a piece of equipment being transported and repaired for free. Also lets not forget about the difference in sales volumes. Anecdotal evidence tends to exclude that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 02, 2018, 08:54:43 pm
You seem to forget Lecroy is selling Siglent gear. So on one hand you have a company which builds really high-end oscilloscopes and on the other hand sells low end gear
Again, this lacks any dedication to the details discussed here...
Here, I fixed the selective quoting for you so now all the details are within context as it should be.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 02, 2018, 09:08:45 pm
Problem that comes with this is that a small failure rate tends to come with vocal customers. Look at all the shit Apple get.

You need good customer service.

(and a way of knowing if the phone has been dropped in water then dried out before claiming "it died for no reason at all!")

Edit: I should say that the stuff is literally disposable pricing now. The whole scope comes in less than a decent vertical plugin for a Tek 7000 would cost today.

Result: A new class of customer. People who would never think of owning a Tek 7000 are buying this cheap stuff.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on December 02, 2018, 09:10:24 pm
Very true on both counts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 02, 2018, 09:16:11 pm
Maybe my expetations are too high, maybe I shouldn´t compare affordable scopes automatically with the ones I work everyday with in our testfield.
But I do, perhaps in the hope that someday  a "B-Brand" scope launch into the market, which makes older good quality stuff forgettable.

My impressions by playing around with the 5074 are that this one could do it.
If rigol optimize the firmware proper, the hardware can have the capability for it - I´ll see it in the next days at work.
By the way, the 1mV/div range is bandwith limited - a "B" pops up by the choose.
At 2mV/div it disappears.




Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on December 03, 2018, 12:00:00 am
You seem to forget Lecroy is selling Siglent gear. So on one hand you have a company which builds really high-end oscilloscopes and on the other hand sells low end gear
Again, this lacks any dedication to the details discussed here...
Here, I fixed the selective quoting for you so now all the details are within context as it should be.
It's not my lack of quoting skills that was in question.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: glenenglish on December 03, 2018, 12:45:24 am
I agree that 2 GSps is an overkill for a 100 meg scope but if I like it I will upgrade it to 350M, and apples for apples, dollar for dollar, it is hard to beat.

It's not brickwall filtering of course. That's the -3dB.

My experience is that the minimum oversample rate of 4x BW gives me the pictures I want if there is a bus fight.. This is quite obvious on my 5GS tek scope's response.

it will be interesting to measure the rolloff rate of the 100meg at 2GSps. IE what Rigol do with the filtering.

beyond 350 MHz, probing accurately becomes more difficult also.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 04, 2018, 06:21:32 pm
Some functions are not avaible and "greyed out", perhaps functional with an option/firmware upgrade, seems normal to me.
BUT:
"Options Install", "Online Upgrade" and "Local Upgrade" are also deactivated... :-//


Got a answer from rigol today:


The fields are self-activating.

A detection of a USB-stick with options-license file will activate the "Options Install" Button.
A detection of a USB-stick with a firmware-file will activate the "Local Upgrade" Button and if the scope is online, you got access to the online upgrade button.



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 04, 2018, 08:39:23 pm
I agree that 2 GSps is an overkill for a 100 meg scope

When you turn on all four channels it's less, proportionally.

When you unlock 350MHz it's about right.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - Unconfirmed 'Crack' of Rigol 5000
Post by: mrpackethead on December 06, 2018, 07:19:32 am
A unconfirmed claim of of the MSO5000 has been made by a chinese student.   

Quote
"Well, I have patched the firmware, let it jump out license verify produce. But I can't make it public until next year March. Because Rigol sold out about less than 300 units now.

In fact I'm working on my friend's scope and I havent ordered yet (lack of money...Im just a ungraduated). I m wonder if I make it public prematurely, maybe they will fix it and it can't be cracked anymore.

Btw, there's no keygen for 5000 series oscilloscope because it cant be realize. The only way to crack it is to patch firmware.

The detail of crack this scope I will
publish it to my github when my scope is successfully cracked."


Sadly he does not want to provide the info, I think he is worried that Rigol will patch the issue before he has collected enough money to buy his own.      If he was able to crack it, i'm sure that others will be able to do it as well, pretty quickly.   if he wants the 'claim to fame' of being the guy who cracked it, he will need to publish it before anyone else does i guess.   though it seems he just wants the 350Mhz scope for the 70Mhz price.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on December 06, 2018, 07:28:16 am
I agree that 2 GSps is an overkill for a 100 meg scope

When you turn on all four channels it's less, proportionally.

When you unlock 350MHz it's about right.
Just to make sure it has 8/4/2 GS/sec for  4ch and 8/2 GS/sec for 2 ch.

More than Nyquist is useful. Most scopes go way more than sticker spec. Keysight wrote WP in which they basically said that you need 5x oversampling to make it work real well with real world filtering and such. If speed and memory is there no harm done. At least some members wont complain that Rigol shows points that don't exist.  ^-^
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 06, 2018, 10:59:13 pm
Quote
At least some members wont complain that Rigol shows points that don't exist.


For example ?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on December 06, 2018, 11:27:10 pm
Some time ago was discussion where some members didn't believe that you can reconstruct signal if you don't have many samples per period....
I was joking about that...  Not important..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 06, 2018, 11:41:21 pm
Ah, okay...
And it makes sense.
Our older LeCroy Waverunner models ( 1999-2002)showing us everything in the right manner, although they have "only" 500Mpts/Sa by 200 Mhz BW.
A few months ago, a LeCory sales man told me the "right ratio" between samples and bandwith - unfortunenatly I can´t remember the value at the moment, but I´m sure it was less then expected.
Today I´ll take my 5074 to work, test it next week under "real conditions".
As I mentioned before, Rigol itself compares it with the 2000er models from Tek and Keysight.
The 7000s series they compare it with the 3000s series of Tek and Keysight.
Understatement or true sight...



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on December 06, 2018, 11:49:33 pm
The MSO5000 hasn't got "smart" probe interfaces -> entry level as Keysight DOSX2000, R&S RTB2000 etc.
The DS7000 has them, so it's targeted at the "one above entry level" like Keysight DSOX3000, R&S RTM3000 etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 07, 2018, 06:25:52 am
Quote
At least some members wont complain that Rigol shows points that don't exist.

For example ?
AFAIK on the DS1000Z the sin x/x is implemented incorrectly which hasn't been fixed (yet).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 07, 2018, 08:59:46 am
AFAIK on the DS1000Z the sin x/x is implemented incorrectly which hasn't been fixed (yet).

Nope. There's been entire threads discussing this but you're still spreading anti-Rigol FUD anyway.

Short version: Turning sin(x)/x "off" when you're in dots mode with more than channels turned on at full sample rate (and only in dots mode with more than two channels turn on at full sample rate) doesn't seem to disable it completely, it seems to use an alternate reconstruction filter instead. But we're not 100% sure because you have to go really close to the scope's bandwidth limit to even see it.

That's a completely different thing than "sin x/x is implemented incorrectly".
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 07, 2018, 05:09:03 pm
First Time measuring at work, spi-decoding….
BIG disappointement…

(https://i.ibb.co/Wt4nbff/SPI1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wt4nbff) (https://i.ibb.co/44R896Q/SPI2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/44R896Q)

It decodes from the screen, what you see is what you get, if not all data are displayed, then you couldn´t see all the data in the event table….. :--

Turn one channel off, all data are lost - Lecroy WS3024 and EVEN the smaller, much cheaper siglent 1104 can do it, they decode it from, the memory….and this one do it like the 1054Z  :--
Hope they correct it, so much memory inside and then decoding from the screen....
And:
The event table...You have to turn it on in the menu, good.
But:
If you press the "Back" button or if you turn on another channel, it disappears.... ::)
You have to go back in the menu and turn it on again....

Rigol, please fix it - Event table on/off only when you press the specific button.
And pretty please rigol....decode the data from the memory......PLEASE.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: dr.diesel on December 07, 2018, 05:11:59 pm
And pretty please rigol....decode the data from the memory......PLEASE.

They never bothered to fix it in the 4000s.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: rsjsouza on December 07, 2018, 05:30:22 pm
And pretty please rigol....decode the data from the memory......PLEASE.

They never bothered to fix it in the 4000s.
Nope. The DS4000 series decodes from the acquisition memory and not from the video buffer.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-scopes-serial-decoding/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-scopes-serial-decoding/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 07, 2018, 06:59:55 pm
First Time measuring at work, spi-decoding….
BIG disappointement…

(https://i.ibb.co/Wt4nbff/SPI1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wt4nbff) (https://i.ibb.co/44R896Q/SPI2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/44R896Q)

It decodes from the screen, what you see is what you get, if not all data are displayed, then you couldn´t see all the data in the event table….. :--
Are you friggin' kidding? How can that happen in a scope released in 2018? If you think you will ever need decoding then return it and buy it again when Rigol has implemented decoding the full memory.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on December 07, 2018, 07:12:36 pm
$10 POS aliexpress logic analyser does better than that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 07, 2018, 07:19:23 pm
$10 POS aliexpress logic analyser does better than that.

My advice: Use one of those, then and leave the 4-channel, 350Mhz, 200Mpoint memory, $900 oscilloscopes for the rest of us.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on December 07, 2018, 07:20:14 pm
$10 POS aliexpress logic analyser does better than that.

My advice: Use one of those, then and leave the 4-channel, 350Mhz, 200Mpoint memory, $900 oscilloscopes for the rest of us.  :popcorn:

Allegeledy, 1Ghz
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on December 07, 2018, 07:27:10 pm
$10 POS aliexpress logic analyser does better than that.

My advice: Use one of those, then and leave the 4-channel, 350Mhz, 200Mpoint memory, $900 oscilloscopes for the rest of us.  :popcorn:

I do exactly that already  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 07, 2018, 07:29:05 pm
$10 POS aliexpress logic analyser does better than that.

My advice: Use one of those, then and leave the 4-channel, 350Mhz, 200Mpoint memory, $900 oscilloscopes for the rest of us.  :popcorn:

Allegeledy, 1Ghz

Even if it did the whole memory they'd just complain it couldn't decode all 200Mb without any lag.

Haters gonna hate.


PS: What happens if you zoom out on a long sequence of data? The manual seems to suggest the event table should still work for all the signal on screen, ie. it's not working with just 1200 bytes of downsampled data like a DS1054Z.

Also: Does it display rubbish if you scroll the start of a byte off the screen?

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 07, 2018, 07:40:35 pm
$10 POS aliexpress logic analyser does better than that.

My advice: Use one of those, then and leave the 4-channel, 350Mhz, 200Mpoint memory, $900 oscilloscopes for the rest of us.  :popcorn:

Allegeledy, 1Ghz

I forgot to mention the huge sampling rate - good for avoiding the Gibbs phenomenon.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on December 07, 2018, 07:57:13 pm
I wonder if there is a misunderstanding what sampling from screen or memory means exactly.
When you use 2GSa/s and set the memory to 400kPoints or 200kPoints as shown in the screenshots, the sample memory is all that fits on the screen with 10divs and 20µs/div (400kPoints) or 10µs/div (200kPpoints). IMHO you could only complain about decoding memory vs. screen if the selected memory depth exceeds what is visible on the screen.

E.g. the Lecroy WS3K (and any other Lecroy)  can use the full memory independently of the sample rate, i.e. the memory can exceed what fits on the screen by far. However, even letting the decoding aside, sampling the whole memory lowers the update rate (and increases the dead time) of course. I.e. the time needed to sample 200MPoint at 2GSa/s is 100ms which means the update rate would be decreased to 10Hz even if the decoding and display wouldn't need any time at all. This is exactly why "fast" scopes as the Keysight DSOX only decode or measure what's on the screen and/or don't even let you select memory depth independently from sample rate.

Then again, even with HW based decoding it's somewhat inevitable that decoding 20MPoints will take longer than 100kPoints.
Anyway, I guess people who expect the whole memory to be sampled and decoded without any speed impact didn't really get the whole DSO thing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 07, 2018, 08:17:14 pm
Dave also showed quite a few problems with serial decoding in a video the other day.

I assume that's one of the things the firmware people are still working on so don't count your chickens until the fat lady sings.  :popcorn:

OTOH: The manual says the event table only shows what's in the area on screen so I'm not expecting full memory decode. I'm more interested in whether it still decodes properly when you zoom out a bit, eg. does it still decode when a byte of serial data is reduced to a couple of pixels on screen? If not, at what point does it start to fail?

(nb. I'm talking about the event table, not the bytes overlaid horizontally on the signal)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on December 07, 2018, 08:32:13 pm
I have a logic16 from salae, and its just awesome, comes with heaps of decode protocols, and it does the job *really* well, and its easy to transfer data to a PC for more in depth comparison and manipulation..      Just not sure i need another instrument to do that, and one that does it poorly.     Much more interested in the other features of it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 07, 2018, 08:47:32 pm
Quote
The manual says the event table only shows what's in the area on screen so I'm not expecting full memory decode

True.

Manual:
Quote
Note: When the source channel of MISO or MOSI is set to "OFF",
information of the data line is not displayed in the data table.

You can turn off both channels ( we use spi without cs) on the WS3024 or SDS1104, as long as the table is on, data will be displayed on this.

Quote
Note:
 When you adjust the horizontal time base, the waveform displayed
on the screen will also change, and the total number of lines
containing the decoding information in the event table will also be
changed.


OK, thats the result of my second photo - took a look in the manual after work at home...
I wouldn´t expect that on a scope which can display math functions without the channel on..
Monday the tests will be continued and I will also test spi again for:

Quote
I'm more interested in whether it still decodes properly when you zoom out a bit, eg. does it still decode when a byte of serial data is reduced to a couple of pixels on screen? If not, at what point does it start to fail?




Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on December 07, 2018, 09:18:42 pm
It doesn't decode from screen buffer. I decodes form memory and in hardware at that.
But that statement is being confusingly used here.

Like 0xdeadbeef said, some scopes can be setup to show much less on screen but to sample to the full extent of sample memory. So your screen shows 1 ms of  data, but scope went on and actually was sampling for 100 ms. And you can decode all of it, and when stopped, you can browse data, zoom in and out and all.

Some scopes sample only interval that is is needed for one screen scan. So will be able to show you and decode only screen time worth of data. In which case, if you need more, you don't force memory to sample "after" the screen, but change time base to "see" all the data of interest. Scope will try to keep sample rate as high as possible, so it will expand how much samples it will take. If you have enough memory you can "squish" 100 packets on the screen to the point that you cannot recognize them visually. But they are there in sample memory in full detail,  it will decode them all, and you can then select zoom function and magnify portion of the capture.

To me that is more intuitive "scope like" behaviour.
On the other hand, for data analysis, you think in terms of sample rate and number of samples (which more like Lecroy philosophy, understandable considering their legacy)

I suggest that we stop using phrase "decode from screen" because it's confusing. It's either "decodes from data decimated for screen buffer"(which is bad)  or "this scope decodes only time interval shown on screen", in which case you need to set timebase to put on screen whole extent of data you are interested in.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on December 07, 2018, 09:28:08 pm

I wouldn´t expect that on a scope which can display math functions without the channel on..
ON or hidden, it's a feature to be able to hide a trace when it's only needed for trigger or Math purposes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 07, 2018, 09:41:10 pm
Then again, even with HW based decoding it's somewhat inevitable that decoding 20MPoints will take longer than 100kPoints.
Anyway, I guess people who expect the whole memory to be sampled and decoded without any speed impact didn't really get the whole DSO thing.
Sorry but that is nonsense. Even the older Agilent DSO7000 series decode all what is inside the memory. The newer R&S RTM3004 can also decode over 400Mpts (divided over multiple segments) and it doesn't slow down at all while doing that. A scope should be able to decode everything which is inside the memory otherwise the event table (and browsing through it) is useless. You'll lose track of what is what as soon as you are zooming in on a signal (like Martin72 shows). If you ever tried to work with a scope which only decodes what is on screen you'll start pulling your hair quickly. It is utterly inefficient especially with protocols which typically have longer messages like SPI, I2C and CAN.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on December 07, 2018, 11:17:27 pm
Sorry but that is nonsense.
We'll see about that.

Even the older Agilent DSO7000 series decode all what is inside the memory.
We have two Agilent DSO7000 (from early 200x or so) in the department and they can't even measure (things like frequency, DC) anything else than what is displayed on the screen (when zooming in after a single trigger) which makes them useless for me. So I'd be honestly surprised if they could decode anything offscreen. Then again, there are no options installed there and I wouldn't even bother as I hate these things anyway because of their crippling limitations.

The newer R&S RTM3004 can also decode over 400Mpts (divided over multiple segments) and it doesn't slow down at all while doing that. A scope should be able to decode everything which is inside the memory otherwise the event table (and browsing through it) is useless.
Again, do the math, sampling (and decoding) the full memory would slow down the refresh rate dramatically. Using segmented memory is actually reducing the sample depth per capture, so this is obviously something completely different than filling the whole memory at each trigger point. Note that most scopes behave differently for normal trigger mode, single trigger and special triggers like for segmented memory.

You'll lose track of what is what as soon as you are zooming in on a signal (like Martin72 shows). If you ever tried to work with a scope which only decodes what is on screen you'll start pulling your hair quickly. It is utterly inefficient especially with protocols which typically have longer messages like SPI, I2C and CAN.
If we're talking about zooming in after a single trigger, then we are on one page. Every proper scope should be able to do a measurement on the whole memory that was sampled (even though some Agilents can't).
However, as far as I can tell, this is not what we can see on the screenshots as the sample memory displayed exactly fits the screen in both cases.

Anyway, I'd never voluntarily decode serial protocols with a scope if I don't have to. I use the scope mainly to investigate when I get noise or bit errors and suspect it's a bus collision or whatever. So personally, I wouldn't care so much if only the onscreen message is decoded - as long as I can keep the whole area of interest on the screen.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 07, 2018, 11:36:56 pm
Things are not so bad as you might think. I did some extensive testing (including decoding) on various oscilloscopes (*). The big advantage of using an oscilloscope is that it will show you whether the signals are correct in the analog domain. In many cases the cause of a problem in a serial bus has to do with the shape of the waveform. I've seen people being stuck for over 2 weeks because they didn't bother to look at the signals in the analog domain. Just using a logic analyser and lots of head scratching. After hooking up the analog channels the problem was identified in 5 minutes.

*
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-to1104-(similar-to-rigol-1104z)/msg1196293/#msg1196293 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-to1104-(similar-to-rigol-1104z)/msg1196293/#msg1196293)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gds2204e-(200mhz-4-channel-dso)-review/msg855862/#msg855862 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gds2204e-(200mhz-4-channel-dso)-review/msg855862/#msg855862)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtm3000-review/msg1604185/#msg1604185 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtm3000-review/msg1604185/#msg1604185)

edit: deep memory (lots of segments) allows to capture a lot of data and likely to capture a rare event in one measurement (collect data and then analyse). It can take a lot of extra time to do measurements over and over again to capture a rare event.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 07, 2018, 11:44:01 pm
We use the spi decoding for debugging/testing, e.g. to make sure the analog environment of our circuits is correct ( supervision/regulation circuits for voltage/current).
And sure, it is for say 90% enough of how the rigol scopes handles the decoding, that´s the reason we got 4 1054Z here.
And after years of using them we find a "bug", if we want to display another signal parallel to the decoding, it sucks up with decoding.
The WS3024 don´t, the SDS1104 too.
This in mind I was curious about the new rigol 5000 - And actually a little bit disappointed in this point.
Although it seems to have a good value for money in general - But further tests are required.
"Big" Display, 500000 Waveforms/s, 8Gs/s, lots of triggerfunctions, lots of math functions..I couldn´t see this on other scopes for the price.
But it seems, it´s another "asian style thing":
We put lot of stuff in, cause we could - and nothing works really 100% fine.
R&S RTB2000 series for example got less stuff - but what they got, it works.





Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: imo on December 08, 2018, 10:18:40 am
.."Big" Display, 500000 Waveforms/s, 8Gs/s, lots of triggerfunctions, lots of math functions..I couldn´t see this on other scopes for the price.
But it seems, it´s another "asian style thing"
A high time to start an open source o'scope project. HW platform is there. All you need is 2-3 datasheets :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 08, 2018, 12:56:42 pm
There is already a firmware update since october for the 7000 avaible, curious  as I am, I download it and read the release notes:


Quote
     - Auto supports unlocking by passwords
     - Math and Decode support displaying status and type
     - Add HELP menu item in "Utility->System"
     - Add probe ratios: 10000X,20000X,50000X
     - Fixed the problem of wave frozen
     - Fixed the exception of Fast acquisition
     - Fixed the setup saving and loading
     - Fixed the wave exporting and importing
     - Fixed the problem of Measure
     - Fixed the problem of Option uninstalling


No hires-mode, but 10000X Ratio, that´s of course much more important…. ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on December 08, 2018, 01:03:23 pm
oh no!

So, is anyone with one of these able to grab a decent stream of SPI traffic, zoomed out on the screen, and still have it make real sense of the data?

That's one thing I was worried about with serial decoding functionality - that it would "work" like the 1000z's serial decode. That level of serial decode capability would be an example of a dealbreaker for the scope, in my opinion.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on December 08, 2018, 01:54:01 pm
I have a logic16 from salae, and its just awesome, comes with heaps of decode protocols, and it does the job *really* well, and its easy to transfer data to a PC for more in depth comparison and manipulation..      Just not sure i need another instrument to do that, and one that does it poorly.     Much more interested in the other features of it.

I tried using a logic 8 earlier this year for checking the drivers I was writing for an SPI ADC and DAC.. both of which ran sample data over the SPI port, too

the software looked slick, but I had big problems because of the fundamentally slow sample rate. Logic 8 can do just 50MS/s when you have 4 channels up! And I was running the SPI pretty fast. OK, so I think, maybe I can try to use the SPI clock to drive the acquisition, at least get a proper sample of the contents of the data channels that way? nope, saleae doesn't do that. 

Also getting it to try and frame in anything other than 8 bits seemed impossible. which made things pretty annoying when I wanted to search for specific 24 bit commands in the decode panel amongst streams of data... and I could only search for single byte values.

I ended up doing a bit of the on-wire data verification by hand, on my scope... which is why I'd like good serial decode on my next scope. :-)

Yes, logic pro 8 would have been a lot more appropriate for my application, because it can sample at 5x the speed... but still, the software seemed a bit limited for something as reliably variable as SPI.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: rsjsouza on December 08, 2018, 02:11:52 pm
And that's why proper logic analyzers cost real money... Saleae has several drawbacks limited by its hardware.

To me decoding on an oscilloscope is quite convenient, but when you start asking for "infinite" buffers or advanced triggers on such platform, you really need to start considering a proper LA or a very advanced USB oscilloscope (before MrWolf comes after me :) ).

As other resident experts have said before me, debug the analog domain with analog tools and then move to the digital domain with digital tools.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 08, 2018, 04:29:45 pm
Also getting it to try and frame in anything other than 8 bits seemed impossible. which made things pretty annoying when I wanted to search for specific 24 bit commands in the decode panel amongst streams of data... and I could only search for single byte values.

Do you think that seraching for "specific 24 bit commands amongst streams of data" is ever going to be easy/convenient on a device with buttons and twisty knobs?

Wouldn't a mouse/keyboard and large screen make it a lot easier?

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 08, 2018, 11:02:27 pm
Thinking about a "firmware update wishlist"....


- Hi-Res mode with steps between 0.5 and 3 bits
- Free choosable cutoff frequency by the digital filters (and not depended on the timebase), otherwise they make no sense at the moment
- Decoding with the ability to hide the channels without loosing the data values in the event table
- Turn off the event table by pressing "off" ONLY
- A mode like "disable hardware accelaration mode" like on the WS3024 to display a pwm signal "stable" ( couldn´t describe it better and as I wrote times before, the SDS1104 can do it too)


And to who can I give the wishlist, except Santa.....
Make it any sense to write to rigol....

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 08, 2018, 11:41:44 pm
Also getting it to try and frame in anything other than 8 bits seemed impossible. which made things pretty annoying when I wanted to search for specific 24 bit commands in the decode panel amongst streams of data... and I could only search for single byte values.
Do you think that seraching for "specific 24 bit commands amongst streams of data" is ever going to be easy/convenient on a device with buttons and twisty knobs?

Wouldn't a mouse/keyboard and large screen make it a lot easier?
Not if you want to see live data. You can always export the messages to a CSV file for off-line analysis. The other way around... not so much. Being able to do everything on one device is just easy and efficient (if it works well).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on December 09, 2018, 02:08:28 am

Do you think that seraching for "specific 24 bit commands amongst streams of data" is ever going to be easy/convenient on a device with buttons and twisty knobs?

Wouldn't a mouse/keyboard and large screen make it a lot easier?

I think with a touch screen, I should be a able to get an on screen keyboard, and use pinch/zoom actions to select data ranges very easily. :-) that's one reason why I liked the idea of this new 5k series scope.

Also, with the saleae I had a mouse and keyboard.. Didn't help much there....
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 09, 2018, 09:46:16 pm
Quote
Make it any sense to write to rigol....


I wrote it to rigol.eu, perhaps I get an answer.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 10, 2018, 06:08:58 pm
Today I did some measurements on a dc/ac Inverter 400Hz.
The FFT is quite fast and the peak search function is a nice feature.
But....
Maybe I found a bug:
I know the Signal is exactly 400Hz, the hardware counter shows 400Hz - But the peaksearch table did not:


(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181210/temp/fvl2bjgg.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5297/fvl2bjgg_png.htm)

410Hz ?
Where did it come from….


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Qw3rtzuiop on December 10, 2018, 06:48:08 pm
Your RBW is too high. Try to lower it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 10, 2018, 07:26:21 pm
Ah, okay, thank You, didn´t respected this.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on December 10, 2018, 08:03:55 pm
Your RBW is too high. Try to lower it.
RBW says 20Hz... is it high?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Qw3rtzuiop on December 10, 2018, 08:15:39 pm
It is too high if you want to measure a peak and care about a deviation of 10 Hz. In general it depends on your requirements.

On most scopes you can increase the RBW by increasing the recorded length -> increase the time base
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on December 10, 2018, 08:24:17 pm
You are right, I did not see the 10Hz deviation.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 10, 2018, 08:32:44 pm
Manual "says" :

Quote
…..and resolution are displayed at the bottom of the screen, as shown in
the following figure. Of which, FFT resolution is the quotient of the sample rate
and the number of FFT points. If the number of FFT points is a fixed value
(65535 at most), then the lower the sample rate, the higher the resolution.


Damn RTFM...


I try it tomorrow.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 11, 2018, 12:17:56 pm
The serial decoding abilities of this thing still haven't been fully reviewed (AFAIK) and it looks like they need a firmware update anyway.

What would be interesting is to know is how responsive the web interface is and how fast the sample data can be downloaded over Ethernet.

If data download is fast then it should be quite easy to decode large amounts of serial data using a connected PC.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on December 11, 2018, 05:36:55 pm
Looks like after paying $90 for that pink channel and hoping to enjoy some smooth action may get no satisfaction:

https://youtu.be/G9wMP02Bock?t=157

Is that slow or what for mere 500k bins (if I understand correctly whats behind that jerky action)?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 11, 2018, 06:06:54 pm
So...Today I do the measure again, watching the resolution and at the timebase of 100ms you got the 1Hz:


(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181211/temp/f6ul8odd.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5298/f6ul8odd_png.htm)

So far, I like the fft function of the MSO5074.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on December 11, 2018, 06:45:52 pm
So...Today I do the measure again, watching the resolution and at the timebase of 100ms you got the 1Hz:

It's hard to get anything else than 1Hz with these settings not limited by hw but math, better try ~0...32MHz with 512k bins (1Mpts) - I get about 10Hz on random scope. And at the approx settings as in video I get about 30Hz.

Edit: Found another example, for these settings it's very slow, and it's not about (nice btw) features being turned on little later. Main function is slow. Lack of math processing power?
https://youtu.be/mX2dZWcFjns?t=284
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 11, 2018, 11:04:44 pm
For me it´s not slow in comparison with other scopes here.
Good, other scopes here are older Waverunner models, some Wavesurfer models.
Compare it with them the rigol is even "better".
But what means "slow" in this case…Do you really need a fast responsive FFT...
Apart from this, althoug the tests are not fully done yet, I think about buying the options bundle.
Hacking is a nice thing but ruins your warranty, ruins the reselling price.
And only buying the options bundle, the bandwith upgrades are too expensive and in my case actually unimportant.
A MSO 5074 with options bundle costs about 1800€ - I don´t know any scope which can beat the overall-performance at this price.
If rigol fixed the issues and add some nice to haves, it will be a killer.



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on December 12, 2018, 12:23:04 am
Hacking is a nice thing but ruins your warranty, ruins the reselling price.

The hack is undetectable,  simply put it back how it was. Its just a software switch.
The resale price for any Rigol 5000 series now is less than the 5074 model.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 12, 2018, 12:55:45 am
A MSO 5074 with options bundle costs about 1800€ - I don´t know any scope which can beat the overall-performance at this price.
There are other options out there in this price bracket. Though with a smaller display and no touch screen but with good firmware out of the box.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: imo on December 12, 2018, 07:57:42 am
@Martin72: read this how to easy unlock (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2028007/#msg2028007) and you may contribute with some useful testing effort..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 12, 2018, 08:02:26 am
Hacking is a nice thing but ruins your warranty.

How can it ruin the warranty? You haven't opened the case or done anything outside specification.

The hack can be removed just as easily if you want to resell it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 12, 2018, 08:04:17 am
A MSO 5074 with options bundle costs about 1800€ - I don´t know any scope which can beat the overall-performance at this price.
There are other options out there in this price bracket. Though with a smaller display and no touch screen

And no signal generator.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: imo on December 12, 2018, 08:16:57 am
It seems Martin72 is operating company o'scope thus he is limited in his ability to test the unlocked o'scope..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 12, 2018, 08:22:19 am
A MSO 5074 with options bundle costs about 1800€ - I don´t know any scope which can beat the overall-performance at this price.
There are other options out there in this price bracket. Though with a smaller display and no touch screen
And no signal generator.
Well for example the GW Instek MSO-2074EA has a dual channel 25MHz waveform generator (if you insist on having a function generator in an oscilloscope). It can be uphacked to have 300MHz (on 2 channels) and spectrum analysis mode by using a key generator.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on December 12, 2018, 08:42:07 am
But what means "slow" in this case…Do you really need a fast responsive FFT...

For static signals no, if do not care for eye candy. However for dynamic ones different story. Here it depends how it actually works. If look ordinary mode it seems to be single changing line w/o DPO effect. Main ack is much faster in background. So does it take single wfms (decimates main ack) or somehow combines and takes advantage of full wfm rate. But do not see how you can combine many wfms into single line w/o some sort of averaging, which would be wrong approach. Eg will you miss non-static events. So for regular mode is seems do decimate frames? Not sure for color (dot) mode. Data density of color mode seems higher but still very low compared to time domain trace.
In short, for dynamic stuff you want fastest rate possible. Something along these lines and with waterfall view:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd9RolYCqGY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd9RolYCqGY)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 12, 2018, 08:57:21 am
It can be uphacked to have 300MHz (on 2 channels) and spectrum analysis mode by using a key generator.

If we're allowed to hack then then Rigol only costs 900 Bucks. And it has 4 channels.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 12, 2018, 06:13:57 pm
Another question (related to the remove viewing capabilities), can it work with a WiFi dongle?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 12, 2018, 06:38:09 pm
I'm more interested in whether it still decodes properly when you zoom out a bit, eg. does it still decode when a byte of serial data is reduced to a couple of pixels on screen? If not, at what point does it start to fail?

(nb. I'm talking about the event table, not the bytes overlaid horizontally on the signal)


Measures of today, until 20ms the rigol decodes correct.

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181212/temp/y9y27ft8.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5299/y9y27ft8_png.htm)

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181212/temp/qjxgykws.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5299/qjxgykws_png.htm)

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181212/temp/7gk9ar3l.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5299/7gk9ar3l_png.htm)

I found another issue using the event table ( after it´s vanishing when you press "back" or want to turn on another channel, etc):
You can´t proper scrolling the lines, neither with the knob nor with the touchfunction - it´s jumps back and forth between 2,3 lines, you can´t scroll completely down.


Quote
thus he is limited in his ability to test the unlocked o'scope..

Yes, that´s correct, I don´t have all possibilities at work/home to test this scope 100%.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 12, 2018, 07:12:29 pm
I'm more interested in whether it still decodes properly when you zoom out a bit, eg. does it still decode when a byte of serial data is reduced to a couple of pixels on screen? If not, at what point does it start to fail?
Measures of today, until 20ms the rigol decodes correct.

That's really good news! About a thousand SPI clock pulses per screen pixel and it's still decoding.

Definitely not just using the "on screen" data like a DS1054Z does, you should easily be able to frame a decent sized packet of data on screen and see a complete decode in the event table.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: johnmx on December 12, 2018, 07:38:29 pm
If the decode is from the internal memory, it should decode successfully at 50MSa/s. The sampling rate is ~25 times higher than the SPI clock period. But that's not the case...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 12, 2018, 07:43:07 pm
Quote
you should easily be able to frame a decent sized packet of data on screen and see a complete decode in the event table.

Yes, I did - Respectively I wanted to scroll further than the first 10 lines in the table, but it didn´t work proper, see my post before.
But what I saw in the monents of "Jumping", it were the expected values.

Quote
Definitely not just using the "on screen" data


So it shouldn´t be a big deal for a Firmware update to let the channels hide away from the screen, displaying the Event table only - Although it´s not the most important thing, for sure.

Quote
@Martin72: read this how to easy unlock

Hmmm….makes me curious...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: imo on December 12, 2018, 08:04:57 pm
Quote
@Martin72: read this how to easy unlock
Hmmm….makes me curious...
User: root
password: root
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 12, 2018, 08:25:19 pm
Quote
you should easily be able to frame a decent sized packet of data on screen and see a complete decode in the event table.

Yes, I did - Respectively I wanted to scroll further than the first 10 lines in the table, but it didn´t work proper, see my post before.
But what I saw in the monents of "Jumping", it were the expected values.

Probably just a firmware thing. The main thing is that it can decode a decent chunk of data.

Let's hope they're working hard on the first update. :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 13, 2018, 06:29:02 pm
Today, with DS1054Z:

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181213/temp/vqsctiu7.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5300/vqsctiu7_png.htm)

From 50µs on it couldn´t decode proper anymore:

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181213/temp/qtjojb8o.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5300/qtjojb8o_png.htm)

Size matters :

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181213/temp/n4oiadjk.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5300/n4oiadjk_jpg.htm)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on December 14, 2018, 08:20:33 am
Excellent! so glad to see the basic serial decode working properly.
I'm on track to buy a 4 channel @200MHz  with the bundle sometime in the next year, if their bugfix performance looks good.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 15, 2018, 09:46:50 pm
Excellent! so glad to see the basic serial decode working properly.
I'm on track to buy a 4 channel @200MHz  with the bundle sometime in the next year, if their bugfix performance looks good.

As noted in the other thread, their new flagship 7000 scopes run basically the same firmware so I expect they're working flat out on this. They need to get it working ASAP.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 15, 2018, 10:07:54 pm
Yesterday our WS3024 returned after external calibration so I had an direct visual comparison.
Yeah...quite more "look and feel" professional building quality, bigger and brighter screen, better structered menus...in this points the rigol lost against the "little" Lecroy.
But we´re talking about a prize of appx 3 times more than a 5074 and in some cases the WS3024 appears slower and haven´t all the features the rigol got.
Nevertheless it couldn´t be magic to create a design nearly to scopes like the Lecroy WS3024 what the frontpanel design and the menu structure concerns.
As I said before, I don´t mind about the "Mickey Mouse" design in general.
But in direct comparison vis a vis, the rigol looks like a toy for children... ;)
Although it isn´t of course in technical way but I can understand Dave´s comments in the vids where he´s presenting the 5000 and 7000s rigol(no fully reviews..come on Dave).
We´re talking about scopes fully armed (in "legal" way) between 5000...12000€.
The technical abillities in general might be justifying the prices if rigol fixed some issues.
But the design.....


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 15, 2018, 11:03:36 pm
Who cares about the design. You don't have to take the oscilloscope to dinner. However the design of the MSO5000 could have been less cluttered. Rigol should'nt have put the buttons on the side of the screen. A touch screen makes them redundant.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on December 15, 2018, 11:15:25 pm
Could someone measure the waveform update rate of MSO5000 under various conditions (e. g. all channels on, serial decoding on)?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 15, 2018, 11:20:37 pm
@nctnico
I don´t get the advantages of a touch screen in case of a measurement tool like an oscilloscope….

Quote
Could someone measure the waveform update rate of MSO5000?

Next week
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 15, 2018, 11:34:57 pm
@nctnico
I don´t get the advantages of a touch screen in case of a measurement tool like an oscilloscope….
I have an R&S RTM3004 and a MicSig TO1104 (both with touch screen) and I'm finding the touch screen a big improvement for making settings beyond the horizontal and vertical controls (*). BUT the interface on these oscilloscopes has been designed for touch from the ground up. Last year I've also played shortly with a Keysight S series (IIRC) which has a touch screen as well . However in that oscilloscope the UI hasn't really been designed for touch. Many of the menus and screen elements are too small to touch so operating the scope gets tedious. I don't know how well Rigol has designed to UI to work with a touch screen.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 15, 2018, 11:37:50 pm
Oh, a Micsig...It´s Offtopic but what are your thoughts on this, we´re  searching for a mobile scope for services
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 15, 2018, 11:43:24 pm
Oh, a Micsig...It´s Offtopic but what are your thoughts on this, we´re  searching for a mobile scope for services
Offtopic it goes then: IMHO unlike other handheld scopes the Micsig TO1000 is also useful as a bench scope. I'd say it is a bench scope without buttons but with a battery. If you are looking for a portable scope I'd certainly give it a try. What is special about the TO1000 is that it can record to video so you can save a life signal as a video.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Synthtech on December 16, 2018, 06:43:38 am
Another vote for the Micsig, it’s fantastic to drop anywhere and start probing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: supercilious on December 16, 2018, 07:39:36 pm
Next week

Could I also request that you measure the data transfer rate? How long does it take to transfer 100M samples using SCPI to a PC via USB and/or ethernet? This was always an Achilles heel for Rigol scopes and made them much less useful than they would otherwise be with their large sample memory compared to the competition.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 16, 2018, 08:17:47 pm
Hi,

This could I do at home later. ( I´ll take the scope back to home on forthcoming friday).

The update rates measures will be done tomorrow.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 16, 2018, 08:58:07 pm
Could I also request that you measure the data transfer rate?

And the screen refresh rate when using remote access?  :popcorn:

(plz)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 16, 2018, 09:37:45 pm
I must confess, I´d never used scopes with a connection via pc so far…..no, stop...we use "scope explorer" by our older lecroys to transfer screenshots ( cause they didn´t have usb ), it´s awesome slow..

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 17, 2018, 06:09:17 pm
Hi,

Feeding in a 25Mhz Sine into the rigol, zoom to one period (5ns/div.), also using the full vertical grid.

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181217/temp/rdizjnmz.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5304/rdizjnmz_jpg.htm)

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181217/temp/un5eltpf.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5304/un5eltpf_jpg.htm)

Memory Depth:             Wfs/s:
1K                                530000
10K                              94000
100K                            61000
1M                                 7842
10M                                 798
25M                                 320
50M                                 160
100M                                 80

If I did it right, these are the results.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on December 17, 2018, 06:20:22 pm
Thank you.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 17, 2018, 06:29:43 pm
Wednesday I test it with all channels on.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Swap_File on December 17, 2018, 06:46:25 pm
Anyone have a chance to break open the PLA2216 logic probes and see what's inside?  I'm considering building my own since I doubt they use $400 worth of parts.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 18, 2018, 10:47:38 pm
Quote
I doubt they use $400 worth of parts.


Sure they don´t.

None make an offer worth the prices of the parts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 20, 2018, 09:47:29 pm
Today, I did some measurements on a signalboard which delivers among others a three-phase pwm signal.
And I was a little bit dissapointed.
As known from all the different lecroy models on the work, as known from the SDS1104X-E, the MSO 5074 couldn´t display a "stable" pwm-signal.
I couldn´t describe it better, but the signal "jitters" on the screen, as if you don´t have the trigger proper set.
On the lecroys/siglent, the signal is "stable" displaying.
Sure, with single-shot pressing one after another you can see the signal width going from small to wide and back - But it´s annoying and it would be much more comfortable and less irritating when the rigol does it like lecroy/siglent.
And I try to use the "lowpass" math function to seperate the sinewave out from the pwm.
To set the cutoff frequency of say 1000hz, you must set the timebase of several hundreds of milli-seconds.
It works, but you can´t see much from the sinewave which period is way shorter than the actual timebase set.
Therefore a free selectable cutoff frequency independent from the timebase would be necessary, otherwise the filter functions makes no sense at all.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 21, 2018, 04:40:40 pm
Today I did the last measurements before Christmas Holidays.
Specially the waveform update rate with more than one channel, the update rate by spi decoding.

First of all, the behaviour of the rigol in case of wfs/s is exactly the same as here:

 EEVblog 617-Tektronix Anomalie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE0_gcOBHA8)

Nothing bad, but remarkable.

Wavefrom updates during decoding spi : appx. 90wfs/s
Waveform updates decreasing while using math, in my case displaying FFT : No.


Waveform updates one channel as expected over 500000:

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181221/temp/qwb9lrtz.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5308/qwb9lrtz_jpg.htm)

With more channels on between 70000.....90000, still an excellent result.
And : It decreases one time when more than one channel is active, it don´t decrease further.

Interesting:
The measurements were taken with a 25Mhz Sine at 5ns/div.
But if you zoom out to 20ns/div AND with all channels on, the waveform rate increases to appx 200000...hm.

Martin



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: orion242 on December 26, 2018, 12:49:03 am
Just ordered the 5074 from RigolNA tonight.   Estimated ship date ">8 weeks".

Must have sold a few.

Had the 1052, upgraded to the 1054z shortly after that came out.  The HDMI output and bigger screen for the price sold me on the 5074 alone.  The 1052 would still serve my needs, but for the price and features of the new devices seems silly not to upgrade if you have the cash.  Beats the living snot out of the old crow I had before I met Rigol.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 26, 2018, 11:41:21 am
In comparison with the 1054z, it´s really an upgrade buying the 5074.
FFT and other math functions are faster and can be displayed alone, the bigger screen....
At this Points I´m confident with the 5074.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on December 26, 2018, 03:48:32 pm
Just ordered the 5074 from RigolNA tonight.   Estimated ship date ">8 weeks".

Must have sold a few.

Had the 1052, upgraded to the 1054z shortly after that came out.  The HDMI output and bigger screen for the price sold me on the 5074 alone.  The 1052 would still serve my needs, but for the price and features of the new devices seems silly not to upgrade if you have the cash.  Beats the living snot out of the old crow I had before I met Rigol.

It will be interesting to see if Rigol makes any attempts to 'update' any new firmware versions to make them somewhat more secure.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 26, 2018, 04:13:15 pm
It will be interesting to see if Rigol makes any attempts to 'update' any new firmware versions to make them somewhat more secure.

...because I'm sure they want to sell less.  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on December 26, 2018, 04:19:46 pm
...because I'm sure they want to sell less.  :palm:

We will see. There is certainly plenty they could do to make it much tougher to hack.    I would be confident that Rigol certainly knows of this thread, and similar threads ( such as hackaday ). The thread has certainly been read by some of the Rigol resellers, who likely would have discussed it upwards.   My gut feeling ( no proof ) is that Rigol seeded that hacking thread as well.   ( the serial number 001 was the big giveaway ).

But the ball is in their court.  The first ones are out there, but will subsquent ones be the same.  Only time will tell, but either way we will know waht Rigols intention is.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 26, 2018, 06:00:26 pm
I don´t think they´ll prevent the models from hacking - The entry models (5074/5104) will be bought and hacked by hobbyists, greater models and/or the options will be bought from companies.
So they won´t worry about that, I guess.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 26, 2018, 06:15:42 pm
I don´t think they´ll prevent the models from hacking - The entry models (5074/5104) will be bought and hacked by hobbyists, greater models and/or the options will be bought from companies.
So they won´t worry about that, I guess.

We had the exact same arguments over the previous two generations of Rigol.  :popcorn:

Do you really think the bosses at Rigol would allow such a simple hack to 'escape' if hacking didn't work as a sales strategy?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 26, 2018, 06:26:42 pm
Exactly.
None have to worry with the next or a future firmware the abilities of hacking won´t be possible any more.
Do anyone hear/know about hacks for R&S RTB/RTM scopes, or lecroy, or greater keysight models…
At this range of prices, you don´t care about the money for buying additional options.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 26, 2018, 06:57:51 pm
Tektronix, Lecroy and Keysight scopes are being hacked on a large scale as well. It just stays more under the radar. There is also some hacking of R&S equipment and I have no doubt the scopes from R&S can be hacked as well if someone puts some effort into it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: orion242 on December 26, 2018, 10:01:31 pm
Just ordered the 5074 from RigolNA tonight.   Estimated ship date ">8 weeks".

Got a call from them today and they said the initial ship date on their site was wrong, should ship 3rd week of Jan. Woot.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 26, 2018, 10:10:56 pm
Quote
if someone puts some effort into it

But it didn´t happened.
The reason would be if I can buy a scope like the R&S, then I can buy also the options and don´t care about of getting them for free due to a hack.
Honestly I think rigol counts on the hacker-scene for selling their low-cost models.
The MSO 5074 is affordable, got tons of features like many math functions even mid-price scopes don´t have, power analyzing, decoding, 2-ch arb generator...for (here) 1070€.
If you get the options in which way ever for free.
This is a killer and I´m sure they know it and let the hackers doing it like they´ve done it before.
If I had 1000....2000 bucks for a scope to buy, I would go for the rigol(like I´ve done).
If I have more to spend, I won´t, even not for a 7000 rigol.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: photon on December 26, 2018, 10:30:51 pm
I don´t think they´ll prevent the models from hacking - The entry models (5074/5104) will be bought and hacked by hobbyists, greater models and/or the options will be bought from companies.
So they won´t worry about that, I guess.

We had the exact same arguments over the previous two generations of Rigol.  :popcorn:

Do you really think the bosses at Rigol would allow such a simple hack to 'escape' if hacking didn't work as a sales strategy?
The Strategy used here by Rigol is brilliant and no cost to them, other than what they pay Dave and the engineers on their payroll who "help" EEVblog members to reverse engineer and promote their scope. Nothing is free.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 26, 2018, 10:38:51 pm
The MSO 5074 is affordable, got tons of features like many math functions even mid-price scopes don´t have, power analyzing, decoding, 2-ch arb generator...for (here) 1070€.

Don't forget bandwidth north of 350MHz (pending real measurements), 8 gigasamples/sec rate, 400Mb memory, etc.

Nobody else is going to give you anything close to that for that much money.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 26, 2018, 10:51:55 pm
Yes,
The hardware is ready for anything  - when they spend time for optimizing the firmware...Boy, another DS1054Z would be on the scene, but 2 class or more higher.
Got a DS2000 too, even yet it´s no real challenge against the MSO5074.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 01, 2019, 12:25:18 am
Happy New Year @all....

Wednesday I´ll "met" my 5074 again, waiting at work.
I think I´ll upgrade it with the "new" FW:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2076715/#msg2076715 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2076715/#msg2076715)
And check out the differences before/after.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 06, 2019, 11:04:47 pm
I was a little bit scared about it, will wait for an "official" FW-update.
When was the scope released, october or november...…
It seems, rigol is still collecting the issues customers reports.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: FriedMule on January 07, 2019, 01:56:34 am
Sorry for my question, but should I buy the Rigol MSO5072 or the Rigol MSO5074?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on January 07, 2019, 02:09:35 am
Sorry for my question, but should I buy the Rigol MSO5072 or the Rigol MSO5074?
MSO5074.  The price of 2 additional probes is about $90 (the difference from MSO5072 to MSO5074) and you will have the warranty for all 4 channels
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: FriedMule on January 07, 2019, 02:20:15 am
Great thanks:-)

Do you know where to get et to the lowest price (220-240VAC)?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: gedong on January 07, 2019, 05:52:18 am
can anyone confirm if this mso5000 have bodeplot function  ?
i can't find any info on the datasheet though..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: gedong on January 07, 2019, 05:58:42 am
Sorry for my question, but should I buy the Rigol MSO5072 or the Rigol MSO5074?
MSO5074.  The price of 2 additional probes is about $90 (the difference from MSO5072 to MSO5074) and you will have the warranty for all 4 channels

could you tell me the stock probe is it PV2150 or PV2350 ?
planned to buy 5072 next month after CNY. price different is about $120 more for 5074
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Noy on January 07, 2019, 07:52:46 am
Ordered a MSO5074 yesterday from Batronix (Europe). Will be shipped end of january / begin of february.
If you ask for the "show discount" because of the Embedded World next month you will get 6% off. Normaly only while the show is running but they are kind and it wasn't my first scope order from them.
So i paid nearly 1k€.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: oliv3r on January 07, 2019, 09:23:06 pm
Ordered a MSO5074 yesterday from Batronix (Europe). Will be shipped end of january / begin of february.
If you ask for the "show discount" because of the Embedded World next month you will get 6% off. Normaly only while the show is running but they are kind and it wasn't my first scope order from them.
So i paid nearly 1k€.
That sounds like an excellent deal!
How did you go on about it? Request a quote with a note? Or placed the order online with a comment?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 07, 2019, 10:51:19 pm
Hmpf,

I´ve spend 1069 for it...by Batronix in the end of november.
Although for this price it´s a burner, no doubt.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TopLoser on January 07, 2019, 11:02:02 pm
Batterfly gave me 10% off my MSO5074 in December, free shipping as well.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 08, 2019, 12:04:36 am
lalalala, I don´t hear that, lalalala….. ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on January 08, 2019, 12:12:08 am
Well, TopLoser gives lots of good deals. So, it's karma repaying him.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: oliv3r on January 08, 2019, 06:56:46 am
Batterfly gave me 10% off my MSO5074 in December, free shipping as well.
Now he says, So I guess I'll have to poke simon then via the forum to see if that option is still available? :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: jgmrequel on January 09, 2019, 04:02:15 pm
I tried searching for the answer but my Google-fu was weak this morning; What is the USB to Serial board that Dave uses in this video?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 09, 2019, 05:39:02 pm
I tried searching for the answer but my Google-fu was weak this morning; What is the USB to Serial board that Dave uses in this video?

I dunno, but there's millions of them in the Arduino world.

eg.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=usb+to+serial+arduino (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=usb+to+serial+arduino)

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=ftdi+basic (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=ftdi+basic)

Or just use an Arduino....
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Noy on January 09, 2019, 08:03:19 pm
I ordered it and then i started an online ticket to their sales.
But i think it is easier to ask for a quote. Then you will know before you pay what you need to pay. I did it after because even for 1069€ i would have bought it.
Sold my HM205 and DS1054z a few days before.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 09, 2019, 09:45:24 pm
By the way, the rating for the MSO5000 on batronix was written by me...
Did I see it right, the upgrade from 2ch to 4ch cost about 400€ ?!
Hmmmm….the difference between the 5072 and 5074 cost 100 bucks, I´ll buy the 5072 and upgrade it later for fourtimes the price difference...sure, sure...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Noy on January 09, 2019, 10:05:43 pm
Same price difference with bandwith Updates...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Electro Fan on January 11, 2019, 07:31:00 am
Slightly off topic but can anyone with a Siglent 1104X-E confirm that they can decode data that isn't visible on the screen? With the 1104X-E can you scroll back and forth between data on the screen and data off the screen and get accurately decoded data and hold the timing relationships?  Or better yet, can you search and navigate decoded waveforms without just scrolling side to side?   In other words, do the X-E scopes perform better than the Rigol scopes in these respects?

First Time measuring at work, spi-decoding….
BIG disappointement…

(https://i.ibb.co/Wt4nbff/SPI1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wt4nbff) (https://i.ibb.co/44R896Q/SPI2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/44R896Q)

It decodes from the screen, what you see is what you get, if not all data are displayed, then you couldn´t see all the data in the event table….. :--

Turn one channel off, all data are lost - Lecroy WS3024 and EVEN the smaller, much cheaper siglent 1104 can do it, they decode it from, the memory….and this one do it like the 1054Z  :--
Hope they correct it, so much memory inside and then decoding from the screen....
And:
The event table...You have to turn it on in the menu, good.
But:
If you press the "Back" button or if you turn on another channel, it disappears.... ::)
You have to go back in the menu and turn it on again....

Rigol, please fix it - Event table on/off only when you press the specific button.
And pretty please rigol....decode the data from the memory......PLEASE.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on January 11, 2019, 08:45:24 am
Slightly off topic but can anyone with a Siglent 1104X-E confirm that they can decode data that isn't visible on the screen? With the 1104X-E can you scroll back and forth between data on the screen and data off the screen and get accurately decoded data and hold the timing relationships?  Or better yet, can you search and navigate decoded waveforms without just scrolling side to side?   In other words, do the X-E scopes perform better than the Rigol scopes in these respects?
Is 1000 screen worths enough ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2096347/#msg2096347 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2096347/#msg2096347)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 11, 2019, 12:20:04 pm
Slightly off topic but can anyone with a Siglent 1104X-E confirm that they can decode data that isn't visible on the screen? With the 1104X-E can you scroll back and forth between data on the screen and data off the screen and get accurately decoded data and hold the timing relationships?  Or better yet, can you search and navigate decoded waveforms without just scrolling side to side?   In other words, do the X-E scopes perform better than the Rigol scopes in these respects?

The Rigol only decodes what's on screen but you can zoom out a long way and it still decodes correctly in the event table (ie. you don't have to be able to see the individual pulses on screen like on a DS1054Z).

Is using the 'scopes zoom functions to frame the interesting data better than simply decoding the whole of memory then navigating by scrolling up/down a huge event table? Some might think so, especially with 400Mb memory.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on January 11, 2019, 01:26:00 pm
In my opinion serial decoding on oscilloscopes is good for quick verification that the signals are correct by seeing some meaningful serial protocol information, but if you need serious protocol decoding, then you switch to a logic analyzer.  Even a cheap $10 saleae clone can do better protocol decoding than the most expensive oscilloscopes with serial decoding function.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on January 11, 2019, 03:06:31 pm
In my opinion serial decoding on oscilloscopes is good for quick verification that the signals are correct by seeing some meaningful serial protocol information, but if you need serious protocol decoding, then you switch to a logic analyzer.  Even a cheap $10 saleae clone can do better protocol decoding than the most expensive oscilloscopes with serial decoding function.

yes, i agree, until I want to use an analog source to trigger the start of a decode.  That is sometimes useful. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on January 11, 2019, 03:10:01 pm
In my opinion serial decoding on oscilloscopes is good for quick verification that the signals are correct by seeing some meaningful serial protocol information, but if you need serious protocol decoding, then you switch to a logic analyzer.  Even a cheap $10 saleae clone can do better protocol decoding than the most expensive oscilloscopes with serial decoding function.

yes, i agree, until I want to use an analog source to trigger the start of a decode.  That is sometimes useful.
Then you can get a more expensive logic analyzer for around $150 like the Zeroplus LAP-C 16032 that can be triggered by an external signal.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on January 11, 2019, 03:42:59 pm
In my opinion serial decoding on oscilloscopes is good for quick verification that the signals are correct by seeing some meaningful serial protocol information, but if you need serious protocol decoding, then you switch to a logic analyzer.  Even a cheap $10 saleae clone can do better protocol decoding than the most expensive oscilloscopes with serial decoding function.

yes, i agree, until I want to use an analog source to trigger the start of a decode.  That is sometimes useful.
Then you can get a more expensive logic analyzer for around $150 like the Zeroplus LAP-C 16032 that can be triggered by an external signal.

Not the same thing. It is called MIXED signal scope for a reason. If you want to follow many thing simultaneously, and want to hop from analog to digital domain at will you need mixed signal scope for that.
Most of the time worst part is connecting DUT to instruments...
Many time, name of the game is not decoding 1000 I2C packets across 100 msec, it is 10 packets in 10 seconds interspersed with analog input/outputs...
During one session, I will go back and forth, triggering from serial protocol (start of packet, address, error) or analog trigger from other channel.

Also, it is point of view. From point of view when you are designing something from the scratch, you can test this and that, design special test firmware to test step by step..
You can then simply design test to use what you have, in which case you try to pay less, not more.. Smart.

If you have a system that you have to redesign/analyze/reverse engineer you need as many inputs at the same time, and have that time correlated. Enters mixed signal scope with decodes..
Tool for the job.

If you have something that is pretty much designed and works well from hardware standpoint, and you are now debugging software sending this and that message, you switch to logic/protocol analyzer.
It's a much better tool for that...Like you said.  I love my LAP-C 16128 for that.
And for simple serial protocols ScanaQuad 100. You drop it into laptop case and carry it all time.
If I need long time, I use Picoscope. It has huuuge memory and segments. For long sessions..

Regards,
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on January 11, 2019, 04:05:47 pm
Slightly off topic but can anyone with a Siglent 1104X-E confirm that they can decode data that isn't visible on the screen? With the 1104X-E can you scroll back and forth between data on the screen and data off the screen and get accurately decoded data and hold the timing relationships?  Or better yet, can you search and navigate decoded waveforms without just scrolling side to side?   In other words, do the X-E scopes perform better than the Rigol scopes in these respects?
Is 1000 screen worths enough ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2096347/#msg2096347 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2096347/#msg2096347)

Respectfully in that post it shows that Siglent is also decoding only what is on the screen.
Explanation: Siglent captured 1000 segments, but on how it is shown on those RF's pics, it is decoding every segment separately. It is not one big table with 2000 packets. It is 1000 segments with 2 packets each, and you have to go from segment to segment to decode that one.
Both Keysight 3000T and Picoscope can show all packets from all segments as one big capture. I don't know if MSO5000 or Siglent have that. Would like to know.

Later he shows long snapshot with zoom technique that shows all the packets the same time (in table) and visual decode in zoom window. This is same as Rigol.

This nonsense with phrase "decode from screen" is annoying. Only DS1000Z does that.
All other Rigols decode full buffer.

Difference is that Rigol's "full buffer size" captures only specified memory depth and no more. That is very logical to me.
Some other scopes capture memory "before and after" the screen. And they can use it. It can be useful. But not necessary. I just deliberately capture wider time segment and then move around with zoom and search.

Sad part is that Siglent 1000X-E has always running "history buffers" that are VERY useful and very understated function. It is basically always on segmented memory. That is not mentioned enough.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Electro Fan on January 11, 2019, 11:22:54 pm
2N3055, Thanks for your posts.  I think they are insightful and helpful.  :-+

Can you please elaborate on / distinguish between these two comments? Thx

"Respectfully in that post it shows that Siglent is also decoding only what is on the screen.
Explanation: Siglent captured 1000 segments, but on how it is shown on those RF's pics, it is decoding every segment separately. It is not one big table with 2000 packets. It is 1000 segments with 2 packets each, and you have to go from segment to segment to decode that one."

"Sad part is that Siglent 1000X-E has always running "history buffers" that are VERY useful and very understated function. It is basically always on segmented memory. That is not mentioned enough."

----

- This next part is not directed to 2N3055 but to the forum members overall.

FWIW, There appears to be a lack of consensus among the user community and the scope manufacturers regarding how decoding should work in a mixed-use use case.  This might be because there are multiple use cases.  It also might be because until recently the price of a useful MSO has been beyond the price range of many users, and sometimes users don't fully understand the architecture of the various entry level and intermediate level scopes we discuss around here.

As a result there is some ambiguity in the terminology we use to describe the technology and operations of MSOs, again, partly because of technology understanding or terminology and partly because different users have different needs and expectations for their various use cases.

I'll go first at making a strawman (and get riddled with criticisms, no doubt).  I think there is the capture process (how much of what type of data/protocol needs to be captured), there is the review and navigation process (how is the captured information examined - as waveforms with decodes and errors and timings, or as data in tables with decodes and timings and other annotations), and there is the search process (how do you find specific items of interest - by data strings, wildcards, etc. and/or by waveform triggers).  Admittedly there are different philosophies on all this including those who say I just want a scope to tell me about analog waveform integrity and maybe some high level digital data decode integrity and then I'll use a Logic Analyzer, and there are those who say I want to use the scope largely in place of the LA - in part because I place a value on seeing the timing relationships between analog and digital information.  For those who prefer the use of a LA, that's cool.  But what I think what would be helpful to give feedback to potential new users/buyers (and perhaps to manufacturers too) would be to improve our ability to understand and communicate what is the preferred use case or preferred most common use cases among those who want to use a scope primarily (if not entirely) rather than a LA for mixed-use work.  Personally, I'd like a MSO that would let you capture, review and navigate, and search while retaining the fidelity of the analog and digital information including timing relationships, in a reasonably user friendly manner, subject to the amount of memory available.  Just some thoughts.

And now, back to Rigol vs. Siglent, et al.....

Personally, I'd like to understand this a little better:

"This nonsense with phrase "decode from screen" is annoying. Only DS1000Z does that.
All other Rigols decode full buffer."


Does this imply that the DS1000Z decodes different than say, a Rigol MSO2072A?  If so, in what respect?  (I haven't seen any, or at least any that matters.  On the MSO2072A you can decode what is off the screen, but only to the extent you can adjust it back onto the screen with the time base.  Unless I'm mistaken about this, after that you are out of luck.) 

Net, net regarding Rigol vs Siglent X-E models:  how, in detail, do either the DS1000Z or the MSO2072A decode differently or similarly vs. the Siglent 1104X-E?  (I think this is a question that is on the table for some new buyers trying to decide between the Rigol 1054Z and the new Siglent X-E scopes.)
 


Slightly off topic but can anyone with a Siglent 1104X-E confirm that they can decode data that isn't visible on the screen? With the 1104X-E can you scroll back and forth between data on the screen and data off the screen and get accurately decoded data and hold the timing relationships?  Or better yet, can you search and navigate decoded waveforms without just scrolling side to side?   In other words, do the X-E scopes perform better than the Rigol scopes in these respects?
Is 1000 screen worths enough ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2096347/#msg2096347 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2096347/#msg2096347)

Respectfully in that post it shows that Siglent is also decoding only what is on the screen.
Explanation: Siglent captured 1000 segments, but on how it is shown on those RF's pics, it is decoding every segment separately. It is not one big table with 2000 packets. It is 1000 segments with 2 packets each, and you have to go from segment to segment to decode that one.
Both Keysight 3000T and Picoscope can show all packets from all segments as one big capture. I don't know if MSO5000 or Siglent have that. Would like to know.

Later he shows long snapshot with zoom technique that shows all the packets the same time (in table) and visual decode in zoom window. This is same as Rigol.

This nonsense with phrase "decode from screen" is annoying. Only DS1000Z does that.
All other Rigols decode full buffer.

Difference is that Rigol's "full buffer size" captures only specified memory depth and no more. That is very logical to me.
Some other scopes capture memory "before and after" the screen. And they can use it. It can be useful. But not necessary. I just deliberately capture wider time segment and then move around with zoom and search.

Sad part is that Siglent 1000X-E has always running "history buffers" that are VERY useful and very understated function. It is basically always on segmented memory. That is not mentioned enough.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on January 12, 2019, 12:16:12 am
Explanation: Siglent captured 1000 segments, but on how it is shown on those RF's pics, it is decoding every segment separately. It is not one big table with 2000 packets. It is 1000 segments with 2 packets each, and you have to go from segment to segment to decode that one.
Both Keysight 3000T and Picoscope can show all packets from all segments as one big capture. I don't know if MSO5000 or Siglent have that. Would like to know.
AFAIK Besides Keysight and (according to you Picoscope) I don't know any oscilloscope manufacturer which shows the decoded data from all segments in one bus table. To me this is an obvious thing to do but the only oscilloscope I had in my hands which did that was an (older) Agilent DSO7104A. OTOH the Keysight units don't have much memory compared to the competition so you are much more likely to use segments on a Keysight scope where you might be able to get away with a single acquisition on a scope with more memory.

BTW there are quite a few scopes which only do 'on screen decoding'. AFAIK most (if not all) Siglent scopes and some tests Martin72 did with his Rigol MSO5000 seem to indicate that the MSO5000 also decodes only what is on screen. One of the 'problems' associated with decoding is that it needs a parallel process and memory which runs in parallel with acquisition OR it is a post processing operation. The first needs extra hardware, the latter needs a lot of processing power especially when the oscilloscope has a lot of memory (like the MSO5000). Given the high samplerate of the MSO5000 it may not even be able to do decoding in the hardware and thus making decoding only possible as a post-processing step. If the latter is true then Rigol made a serious mistake in the hardware design.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on January 12, 2019, 12:33:02 am
Gladly. let's go one by one.
2N3055, Thanks for your posts.  I think they are insightful and helpful.  :-+

Can you please elaborate on / distinguish between these two comments? Thx

"Respectfully in that post it shows that Siglent is also decoding only what is on the screen.
Explanation: Siglent captured 1000 segments, but on how it is shown on those RF's pics, it is decoding every segment separately. It is not one big table with 2000 packets. It is 1000 segments with 2 packets each, and you have to go from segment to segment to decode that one."


Older Rigols (2000, 4000 series) will not decode from screen pixels. 1000Z  does that, it sucks. If you have on screen 10M points, they will decode from 10 Mpoints with full resolution. To the point that you can have packets that are visually on screen all smeared together in one big block, but in a decode table you will see them all nicely decoded.
Hence usual advice to capture big block of data and then zoom in.

Both 1000E-X  and older Rigols (2000, 4000 series) can also capture in segments. You capture 1000 separate shorter buffers, and when you go through them it will decode them.
If somebody can check do the new ones (5000 and 7000) also can decode from segments. It is called recording in Rigol parlance.

But both Rigol and Siglent will decode and show only current segment buffer (basically what's on screen, in terms time interval.) At least that is how it was shown on RF's images for Siglent.
That means that if you use segments, in order to decode third burst of data (3 history segment) you go to 3rd segment manually, and it will decode it for you.

Keysight (and Picoscope) decodes in a table, where you can choose to see only current buffer (like Rigols and it seems Siglent 1000E-X), but you can tell it to scan through all buffers, and decode them to single unified decode table. So you can see decode and move around seamlessly. If 1000E-X cannot do that, that would be GREAT upgrade.

And that connects sort of with this:

"Sad part is that Siglent 1000X-E has always running "history buffers" that are VERY useful and very understated function. It is basically always on segmented memory. That is not mentioned enough."
[/i]
Picoscope has same always running segmented memory. Meaning that at any time, you can stop and go several hundred trigger events back.  R&S 2000/3000/4000 have something similar.
Picoscope also have fast segmented mode (also Siglent), that doesn't update screen to minimize blind time. LeCroy has similar thing.
On all other scopes (Keysight Rigol) you have to manually enter segmented mode, an it is only fast mode.
1000X-E has it running all the time with a bit larger blind time but very useful.

As for as decoding what is not on the screen, that is a funny topic.  In my mind (analog scope) you have ONLY what you have on screen. If I want to see more I expand timebase.  It seems some scopes capture samples you didn't tell the to capture, so you have pre-screen and post-screen data. And some people got used to it using it that way. I actually prefer that scope takes exactly amount of data I told it to take. And if I need more I will set scope to capture longer set. Long capture +zoom is exactly for that. In which decode table will be for whole capture, and zoomed portion will have visual decode under it. It will not break up because it knows there is more data. Rigol subscribes to this PHILOSOPHY of thinking.

Some other manufacturers are doing it differently. If you are used to this, it feels more right to you. That is fine with me. I have many different tools and they all have their own idiosyncrasies. I learn how they work and adapt to them. Such is life.

For all these reasons I got Picoscope for decoding. Despite their own problems, their way was most logical to me, and let's me use it without problems.

Regards,
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on January 12, 2019, 12:40:56 am
Explanation: Siglent captured 1000 segments, but on how it is shown on those RF's pics, it is decoding every segment separately. It is not one big table with 2000 packets. It is 1000 segments with 2 packets each, and you have to go from segment to segment to decode that one.
Both Keysight 3000T and Picoscope can show all packets from all segments as one big capture. I don't know if MSO5000 or Siglent have that. Would like to know.
AFAIK Besides Keysight and (according to you Picoscope) I don't know any oscilloscope manufacturer which shows the decoded data from all segments in one bus table. To me this is an obvious thing to do but the only oscilloscope I had in my hands which did that was an (older) Agilent DSO7104A. OTOH the Keysight units don't have much memory compared to the competition so you are much more likely to use segments on a Keysight scope where you might be able to get away with a single acquisition on a scope with more memory.

BTW there are quite a few scopes which only do 'on screen decoding'. AFAIK most (if not all) Siglent scopes and some tests Martin72 did with his Rigol MSO5000 seem to indicate that the MSO5000 also decodes only what is on screen. One of the 'problems' associated with decoding is that it needs a parallel process and memory which runs in parallel with acquisition OR it is a post processing operation. The first needs extra hardware, the latter needs a lot of processing power especially when the oscilloscope has a lot of memory (like the MSO5000). Given the high samplerate of the MSO5000 it may not even be able to do decoding in the hardware and thus making decoding only possible as a post-processing step. If the latter is true then Rigol made a serious mistake in the hardware design.

Hi Nico!

One of the reasons I bought Pico was the fact that it can decode current buffer or all buffers in one big table. It works well. It is also obvious to me and was wondering why nobody does it as standard.

New Rigol series decodes in FPGA.  And as I said, it decodes "screen length of data". Not from screen pixels. So you just grab really long capture. It has 100s of MS of memory. It will capture it with high sample rate and will decode thousands of packets. Then you search and zoom. In that regard it is actually similar to Tektronix mso3000/4000 series without segments. With 10x more memory.
I wouldn't say it is useless. Just not as good as it could be.
Regards,
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 12, 2019, 12:50:45 am

BTW there are quite a few scopes which only do 'on screen decoding'. AFAIK most (if not all) Siglent scopes and some tests Martin72 did with his Rigol MSO5000 seem to indicate that the MSO5000 also decodes only what is on screen.

On the siglent 1000X-E series, you could turn the channels "off" and it still decodes( showing in the event table).

The 5000 rigol decode what´s on the screen.
But there is a difference to e.g. the rigol ds1000.
Where the ds1000 sucks with decoding when you set the timebase (in my case) from 20 to 50µs, the 5000 decodes further untill 20ms.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on January 12, 2019, 02:02:31 am
Yeah well if you know your tools, you'll know how to get the best from them.
How many packets do you want to place on the display, your choice, a few or many 100's ?
A couple of simple examples from another thread:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-uartserial-decode-for-9-bit-multidropmultiprocessor-protocol/?action=dlattach;attach=619003)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-uartserial-decode-for-9-bit-multidropmultiprocessor-protocol/?action=dlattach;attach=619363)

Both screenshots are with the X-E in RUN mode using just edge triggering and the highlighted line in the Decode table shows the packet immediately after the trigger, so whatever # it is in the table, it's halfway through the Decode list and time stamped.

Unlike the previously linked 'decoding in Sequence mode' example by rf-loop the above screenshots are using the split screen in Zoom mode are typical of how to get the best from Siglent DSO's when decoding.....all Siglent models that offer decode can work this way.

If anyone wants to see more jump into this thread and have a hunt or ask for further examples:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on January 12, 2019, 02:58:19 am
The downside of the 'Siglent way' is that you are cluttering the (already not so big screen) screen with a mandatory zoom window. Otherwise AFAIK it will only decode what is on screen.

@2N3055: I wouldn't want to start a semantic discussion by 'what is on screen' means  8) Let's just define it by the trace shown on the screen. There is a way too large variety of how oscilloscopes do decoding to make a good definition. Some scopes even decode properly when the samplerate is way too low so even though the trace looks like garbage the decoded data is still good.

Either way, one of the downsides of oscilloscopes which decode only what is on screen is that they miss the start of the message and can no longer decode when looking into a detail of the data. Also in many cases you'll want to look at a specific message. If the amount of data being decoded depends on the amount of trace displayed and you need to look at the 20th message at 10ms/div then which message do you need with the time base set at 1ms/div? With the bus decoding table changing you'd need to write down the timestamp.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 12, 2019, 11:35:15 am
Given the high samplerate of the MSO5000 it may not even be able to do decoding in the hardware and thus making decoding only possible as a post-processing step. If the latter is true then Rigol made a serious mistake in the hardware design.

What should they have done to fix it? Lower the sample rate to a point where it's possible to do it?

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 12, 2019, 11:42:44 am
Yeah well if you know your tools, you'll know how to get the best from them.

That's true.

In the case of this new Rigol the information you need was posted a couple of pages back:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2034745/#msg2034745 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2034745/#msg2034745)

Apparently you can zoom out until 1000+ SPI clock pulses are contained in a single pixel "on screen" and it still decodes correctly.

This, combined with the 400M memory of the Rigol makes it a clear winner vs. the Siglent IMHO.

(plus people are busy making little PCBs to break out the digital part of "MSO" cheaply)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rpl1116-active-logic-probe-pod-for-1000z-series-teardown/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rpl1116-active-logic-probe-pod-for-1000z-series-teardown/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: seronday on January 12, 2019, 11:26:34 pm
   I recently had the use of a Rigol MSO5074 for a period of time and have been able to measure and record the frequency response with both the original bandwidth and the full bandwidth.
The signal source was connected via a "T" piece with a 50ohm termination on to the Ch1 input connector of the MSO.

Several comments have been made about the lack of brightness on the MSO5000 series display .
To my eyes the display appears to be similar to other Rigol DSO's that I have used in recent times ( DS2000 and DS4000 series ), and is certainly not dull.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 12, 2019, 11:38:38 pm
Quote
Several comments have been made about the lack of brightness on the MSO5000 series display .

It´s not the brightest on the market, for sure  - But it didn´t disturb me as much as others do, who hadn´t a 5000 rigol…. ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on January 15, 2019, 03:26:43 pm
Keysight announced the 1000X series 4-channel scopes and they start at USD 998 in the US for the base model, $1204 with AWG...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590)

Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Vtech on January 15, 2019, 04:43:38 pm
Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?

Keysight 1000X: 2Gsps, 1M memory, 7 inch 800x480 TFT no touch, no logic analyzer option.
Closer to Rigol DS1000z than to MSO5000 series. I would definitely go with Rigol's MSO5000.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: supercilious on January 15, 2019, 04:47:23 pm
Keysight's lower-end scopes are too low memory to be even considered for my purposes, 1M (or even 10M) is just not acceptable in 2019. Shame as they are nice scopes otherwise. No other UI feels as fast as the Keysight instruments in my experience.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 15, 2019, 07:56:35 pm
Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?

Rigol is hackable so you get all options/upgrades for $999

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on January 15, 2019, 08:05:44 pm
Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?

Rigol is hackable so you get all options/upgrades for $999
So far it is the same for Keysight scopes
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thomil on January 15, 2019, 08:24:41 pm
Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?

Rigol is hackable so you get all options/upgrades for $999
So far it is the same for Keysight scopes

I think I read in another thread that the new 4 channel 1000 series scopes from Keysight are Linux based, whereas the 2 channel versions were Windows CE based. Are there any reports whether the old hacking methods still apply to the 4 Linux based versions?

Anyway, this is probably OT in here.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 15, 2019, 10:48:27 pm
Quote
Closer to Rigol DS1000z than to MSO5000 series.

Yepp.
Much more memory, more math functions, ten times more waveform updates, bigger screen and so on.
No comparison.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on January 15, 2019, 11:44:28 pm
Keysight announced the 1000X series 4-channel scopes and they start at USD 998 in the US for the base model, $1204 with AWG...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590)

Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?
These scopes aren't comparable at all. MSO5074 is more in the league of Keysight's 3000 series or R&S RTB2000.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on January 15, 2019, 11:45:42 pm
Keysight announced the 1000X series 4-channel scopes and they start at USD 998 in the US for the base model, $1204 with AWG...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590)

Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?
These scopes aren't comparable at all. MSO5074 is more in the league of Keysight's 3000 series or R&S RTB2000.

Maybe the Keysight 2000, but not the 3000.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on January 16, 2019, 03:43:39 am
Keysight announced the 1000X series 4-channel scopes and they start at USD 998 in the US for the base model, $1204 with AWG...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590)

Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?
These scopes aren't comparable at all. MSO5074 is more in the league of Keysight's 3000 series or R&S RTB2000.

Maybe the Keysight 2000, but not the 3000.

I have a 5074 and a keysight 3000.  The 3000 is definately better than the 5074! But its also a LOT more expensive.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Electro Fan on January 16, 2019, 05:30:42 am
Keysight announced the 1000X series 4-channel scopes and they start at USD 998 in the US for the base model, $1204 with AWG...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590)

Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?
These scopes aren't comparable at all. MSO5074 is more in the league of Keysight's 3000 series or R&S RTB2000.

Maybe the Keysight 2000, but not the 3000.

I have a 5074 and a keysight 3000.  The 3000 is definately better than the 5074! But its also a LOT more expensive.

What are the top features/functions/performance specs or other criteria that make the Keysight 3000 definitely better than the Rigol 5074?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on January 16, 2019, 06:41:15 am
Keysight announced the 1000X series 4-channel scopes and they start at USD 998 in the US for the base model, $1204 with AWG...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590)

Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?
These scopes aren't comparable at all. MSO5074 is more in the league of Keysight's 3000 series or R&S RTB2000.

Maybe the Keysight 2000, but not the 3000.

I have a 5074 and a keysight 3000.  The 3000 is definately better than the 5074! But its also a LOT more expensive.

What are the top features/functions/performance specs or other criteria that make the Keysight 3000 definitely better than the Rigol 5074?

Its got a lot less bugs than the 5074.  Mine is 1Ghz.  Its UI is far better, the screen nicer..   50R inputs,       
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 16, 2019, 11:14:17 am
Autopobe interfaces
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on January 16, 2019, 12:50:44 pm
Autopobe interfaces
Autoprobe interface in 3000 series is not fully featured. It doesn't have full current capability. First one with full interface is 4000 series.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: IanMacdonald on January 16, 2019, 02:51:23 pm
White stuff gets really dirty really quickly. Black stuff you can't see it as bad.
Black ThinkPad here too which is really mucky but you can't see it :)

Yellowing by sunlight is a really big problem with white plastic. It seems to go right through the material and you can't even sand or grind it off.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on January 16, 2019, 03:04:09 pm
White stuff gets really dirty really quickly. Black stuff you can't see it as bad.
Black ThinkPad here too which is really mucky but you can't see it :)

Yellowing by sunlight is a really big problem with white plastic. It seems to go right through the material and you can't even sand or grind it off.
There is a technique called RetroBrite to remove the yellowing from vintage plastic.  It is used extensively to restore vintage personal computers
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 16, 2019, 06:58:29 pm
Maybe the Keysight 2000, but not the 3000.

Yep, rigol itself compares the 5000 with the keysight 2000 or the tek mso 2000 series.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: LapTop006 on January 17, 2019, 04:36:15 am
Autopobe interfaces
Autoprobe interface in 3000 series is not fully featured. It doesn't have full current capability. First one with full interface is 4000 series.

S-series I think, the 4k/6k series don't support non-5v probes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on January 17, 2019, 10:44:53 am
Autopobe interfaces
Autoprobe interface in 3000 series is not fully featured. It doesn't have full current capability. First one with full interface is 4000 series.

S-series I think, the 4k/6k series don't support non-5v probes.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear.  In addition that it doesn't support all the probes as S series, 3000T cannot have some probe combinations connected at the same time.

See here, from the Keysight itself:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-3000t-probe-compatibility/msg1107914/#msg1107914 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-3000t-probe-compatibility/msg1107914/#msg1107914)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Shodge on January 19, 2019, 06:02:04 am
Just received my 5072.  Went through the simple 'upgrade' and this scope is very nice.  I was slightly disappointed in the AWG - limited frequency and voltage will hamper its use.

Does anyone know how to set the trigger to the beginning of the buffer?  It seems you can change where the horz expansion takes place but not move the trigger point?  Maybe I am overlooking something....

Thanks,
-Stan
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Shodge on January 20, 2019, 05:35:57 am
I answered my own question.  The answer is not quite as straight forward as setting the trigger point in memory.  Instead you must shrink the horz to see the full captured data, then scroll it to manipulate its location in the buffer.  It works....  I was able to capture about 10 seconds of 9600 baud decoded serial data and scroll through it.  Used the serial data = xx trigger and zoom to move around the data.  Pretty nice.

I also did not see much talk of it but there is a web based control / view as well.  Not real fast - but it does not need to be.  Works well...

FYI..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Rora on January 21, 2019, 11:07:35 am
I'm also trying to decide between Keysight 1000X and Rigol 5000 series. Spec-wise, the Rigol blows it out of the water, but I'll be using it for a general purpose microcontroller stuff, paired with a Saleae Logic Pro. Although scopes are considered the primary workhorse of any electronics lab, for strictly microcontroller work it seems agreed that the logic analyzer takes this role. Custom decoding profiles on the Saleae make it a necessity.

The spec's should make it an easy decision, but I'm actually considering whether the better UI and smaller form factor are more practical on an everyday basis than an extra 1.75x bandwidth, 4x Gsa/sec, 200x Mpts, and 10x wfms/s. There's also touchscreen, which seems nice but I wonder how often it would really be a gamechanger. I wouldn't be investing in the MSO adapter so that feature isn't useful to me.

On paper, this seems like a stupid comparison, but in practice, the Keysight seems a lot more refined and nice to use, and the spec's seem more than enough for my purposes. Hypothetically when working on microcontrollers, this would only be used for verifying signal integrity, after which most of the debugging work would be done on the Saleae. As much as I'd like to pay less for much bigger numbers, I suspect most of the capability will go unused, unlike a faster, better designed UI.

Thoughts? How much better is the Keysight UI, really? What are the differences in practice, and how would those affect work efficiency with microcontrollers?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 21, 2019, 12:55:20 pm
Hypothetically when working on microcontrollers, this would only be used for verifying signal integrity, after which most of the debugging work would be done on the Saleae. As much as I'd like to pay less for much bigger numbers, I suspect most of the capability will go unused, unlike a faster, better designed UI.

For "signal integrity"? Bandwidth and sample rate are the most important things.

But...  if a Saleae is fast enough for your signals then I can't help thinking that even a hacked Rigol DS1054Z would be able to do the job. With a single channel you get 1GHz sample rate and nearly 200Mhz of bandwidth.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521522;image)

How much better is the Keysight UI, really?

That's going to be very subjective. I wouldn't make a decision like that by asking in forums, I'd want to try it myself.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 21, 2019, 10:04:13 pm
If I had the money, I´ll surely go for the R&S RTB 2004 - But I don´t and therefore I count on rigol for making their raw diamond to a shining one... ;)
By the way I did a request to rigol.eu for the first official firmware update, when it will be launched.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 22, 2019, 06:50:04 pm
Fast response:

They work hard on it, should be launched in the middle/end of february.
And it seems, they have their eyes on the problems posted here and in the bug-thread.. ;)

Martin
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Noy on January 22, 2019, 07:59:54 pm
Hi I'm currently "upgrading" my equipment..
I sold my DS1054z and ordered a MSO5074.
I still have a Hameg HMO3504 but no pods and no 350MHz probes. So it was for me a better deal to buy the MSO and use the Rigol probes on both. And i will build a selfmade pod for the Rigol.
 
Also i sold my OLS and purchased the DSLogic Plus (wan't a USB LA because sometimes it is more comfortable).

Now I'm considering if it is worth to buy a FY6800-60? Or is the build in AWG from the MSO enough? I still have an old Toellner 7401.
Maybe i should sell him...?


Also hope they don't have their eyes to wide open.. so they don't shut up their scope.

A nice future use feature which i wish is the bode plot function like siglent have...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 22, 2019, 08:34:08 pm
Yes therefore I bought a 1104X-E before the 5000 had launched.
Together with an siglent arbitrary gen.
The generator I still have, I´m not trusting the build in awg….
In general, "7 in 1" or "5 in 1" intruments sounds for me like the "good old" stereo compact centers from the 70s/80s.  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Noy on January 22, 2019, 08:43:01 pm
I know what you mean...
Main reason for the MSO was buttons for each Channel and a bigger Screen..
And of course 350MHz BW with probes..
4  new 350MHz Hameg probes are more than half the price for the MSO...

So now is the question, is the Toellner analog FG & build in MSO AWG better than purchasing an additional FY6800?

Maybe selling the TOE 7401..?

I don't want to pay several hundreds euro for a sometimes used AWG only for the "Brand" Rigol/siglent ...


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 22, 2019, 09:03:34 pm
Quote
I don't want to pay several hundreds euro for a sometimes used AWG only for the "Brand" Rigol/siglent ...

I know what you mean…. ;)

I think for sometimes in use and if you don´t Need amplitudes above 5v, the built-in awg would be enough.
And now I´m going to my siglent awg, blowing the dust away…. 8)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: orion242 on January 25, 2019, 02:33:12 am
Got mine today.  Not seeing any real difference in screen brightness myself.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 25, 2019, 09:54:40 pm
Mhh….
You compare it with another rigol…. ;)
Took my 5074 back to work for recording the displaying of PWM signals for the rigol support (actually I´m in touch with them, nearly daily - excellent support from rigol.eu by the way), I must dim the light on my desk to see everything on the screen almost bright.
But it´s not the most annoying thing.
On a friday afternoon none is here, I got my calm - And then switching on the 5074....The fan, god, only Lecroy Wavejets can "beat" it.
Rigol should allow customers the exchange to a silence one without loosing warranty…..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: orion242 on January 27, 2019, 05:17:05 am
You compare it with another rigol…. ;)

Either your under operating room light level or take off your sunglasses.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 27, 2019, 11:31:16 pm
We´re wearing sunglasses since we got new LED Lights in our department... 8)

Seriously, the display isn´t the brightest one on the market plus the limitated angle view.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 01, 2019, 10:49:06 pm
Quote
Seriously, the display isn´t the brightest one on the market plus the limitated angle view.

Ideal place for it is on the desk itself, in the shelf above it appears too dark.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 02, 2019, 10:46:46 am
Quote
Seriously, the display isn´t the brightest one on the market plus the limitated angle view.

Ideal place for it is on the desk itself, in the shelf above it appears too dark.

Brightness might be controlled by a single resistor. Should be hackable.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: oliv3r on February 02, 2019, 10:46:58 pm
Quote
Seriously, the display isn´t the brightest one on the market plus the limitated angle view.

Ideal place for it is on the desk itself, in the shelf above it appears too dark.

Brightness might be controlled by a single resistor. Should be hackable.
At the cost of reduces lifetime :) but probably yes. Apearantly it runs at 9. something volt and the absolute max is 10.2 i belive
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 02, 2019, 11:25:23 pm
Lifetime...10 Years, 20 Years…..or less than 5.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Noy on February 05, 2019, 03:47:20 pm
Got a mail from Batronix..
My scope shipping will be delayed.. They said beginnt of february now its beginn of march....
Hopefully not with a new Firmware...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 05, 2019, 06:58:33 pm
Got a mail from Batronix..
My scope shipping will be delayed.. They said beginnt of february now its beginn of march....
Hopefully not with a new Firmware...

Don't worry, the people at Rigol already know the reason why they can't manufacture them fast enough to keep up with demand.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TopLoser on February 05, 2019, 07:11:19 pm
Plenty of 5074 in stock at Batterfly
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 05, 2019, 08:25:30 pm
Quote
They said beginnt of february now its beginn of march....
Hopefully not with a new Firmware...

Official new firmware will be launched between mid/end of february.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: orion242 on February 06, 2019, 02:07:39 am
Lifetime...10 Years, 20 Years…..or less than 5.....

<5 because they keep coming out with a better hackable unit...forcing the hand to upgrade.

..least says the guy that dumped his crow for 1052, now three Rigols later.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 07, 2019, 09:06:01 pm
Brightness might be controlled by a single resistor. Should be hackable.

Maybe it  musn´t be hacked.
Rigol have it on their to-do list(did a request About)..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 12, 2019, 08:51:43 pm
Hi,

It isn´t really a bug, but today was the first time I used more than one math channel.
I took the low pass filter Funktion on three channels to filter out three phase sinewaves from pwm.
And they all got the same colour....
All 4 traces are violet - very irritating in cases described before.
Hope they´ll change it into 4 different colours.  :P
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: offmar on February 21, 2019, 07:56:58 am
Hi guys,

I recently received my 5074. While trying to compensate the 10x probes, I'm unable to get the perfect square shape of the signal. On channels 1,2,4 I always get some overcompensation. On channel 3 it looks perfect. I've attached pictures to illustrate. Is it normal or should I return it, while still can?

Thanks!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 21, 2019, 09:11:15 am
I recently received my 5074. While trying to compensate the 10x probes, I'm unable to get the perfect square shape of the signal. On channels 1,2,4 I always get some overcompensation. On channel 3 it looks perfect. I've attached pictures to illustrate. Is it normal or should I return it, while still can?

The test signal on 'scopes is usually about 3V peak, you're only showing 300mV.

This makes me think you're doing something wrong.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: offmar on February 21, 2019, 10:14:54 am
Thanks Fungus, you're right! I had the attenuation set to 1x on all 'scope channels. I've set it to 10X, but this had no impact on the form of the signal. It's still with some overshoot on 1,2 and 4-th channel.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on February 21, 2019, 11:34:17 am
Have you tried swapping the probes to different channels to see if the problem is in the probes or the scope input?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on February 21, 2019, 12:00:00 pm
I agree with TK; swap the probes around and see if the problem follows the probes or follows the separate channels.

After that, I would run the same test using a faster edge from a 50 ohm reference level pulse generator with and without the probes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: offmar on February 21, 2019, 12:13:59 pm
Yes, I tried swapping the probes. Nothing changes, seems it's the scope input. Also, when I switch the probes to 1x, the form is the same, maybe 30% less overshoot. I have no separate generator, but when I use the scopes internal, I get slightly different result, but never perfect.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mindy on February 21, 2019, 12:14:44 pm
I have very similar issue with my MSO7014, but in my case all the channels gives me the same result.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds7000/msg2190588/#msg2190588 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds7000/msg2190588/#msg2190588)

When tried with 50 Ohm input I got clean, perfectly compensated signal.
 #nctnico suggested that this may be due to a crossover between LF & HF what kind of makes sense.
I hope that this can be calibrated and not something messed up on a hardware.

Just wondering if all MSO5k / MSO7k have similar compensation signal issue.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: offmar on February 21, 2019, 12:33:05 pm
Thanks for the link! The issue seems quite similar. As I'm not quite experienced with 'scopes, it's not clear to me, shouldn't all this probe compensation thing be a simple, straightforward process? And what worries me is that I see the same shape with probes set to 1x.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 21, 2019, 12:47:02 pm
Thanks Fungus, you're right! I had the attenuation set to 1x on all 'scope channels. I've set it to 10X, but this had no impact on the form of the signal.

All the menu does is change the screen display, it won't affect the signal.  :)

If it was on all channels I'd say it was the signal source. If it's only on three of them and doesn't change when you swap the probes around, I dunno.

Is the probe compensator hitting the endstop? Can you adjust it either side of the "best" position and see visible changes?

Can you zoom right into a rising edge and look at it, is it 'ringing"?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 21, 2019, 12:53:57 pm
As I'm not quite experienced with 'scopes, it's not clear to me, shouldn't all this probe compensation thing be a simple, straightforward process?

It is, but you also need to know that you can't expect perfection on any signal being looked at with ordinary clip-on probes.

And what worries me is that I see the same shape with probes set to 1x.

As noted: The menu setting is just to scale the numbers shown on screen, absolutely nothing to do with the signals.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: offmar on February 21, 2019, 01:12:24 pm
Is the probe compensator hitting the endstop? Can you adjust it either side of the "best" position and see visible changes?

No, it's not hitting endstop in any direction, and yes, I can adjust for best position. The screenshots are from that position.

Can you zoom right into a rising edge and look at it, is it 'ringing"?

It's not ringing.

On my previous post, mentioning that I see the same form of the signal at 1x, I mean that I'm switching the probe to 1x.

In principle (if there can be a simple answer  :)) is this a serious issue, or I'm just overthinking around it?  :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 21, 2019, 01:23:45 pm
is this a serious issue, or I'm just overthinking around it?  :)

99% sure you're just overthinking it. This is about compensating the probes, not looking for artifacts in signals.

I think the idea is to adjust probes so that the horizontal lines are as flat as possible and that you don't go past the top on a rising edge. If the corner of the signal are rounded then that's OK

ie. This is good
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=658320;image)

Your 'scope (and compensation signal generator) have limited bandwidth, you'll never get it 100% square.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mindy on February 21, 2019, 02:15:59 pm
It's not ringing.

Have you tried to measure  AWG (Arbitrary Wave Generator) output ?
Set it to 1-15 Mhz square wave and check signal ringing at rising / falling edge.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 21, 2019, 03:07:53 pm
At this stage we're only looking at compensating the probes. We're not looking at rise times, ringing, or anything else.

The compensation signal on the front of the 'scope will be designed for zero overshoot, not for any other characteristics.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on February 21, 2019, 06:19:52 pm
Yes, I tried swapping the probes. Nothing changes, seems it's the scope input. Also, when I switch the probes to 1x, the form is the same, maybe 30% less overshoot. I have no separate generator, but when I use the scopes internal, I get slightly different result, but never perfect.

The internal source is intended for probe compensation and can suffer from considerable leading edge distortion without compromising this.  But any source should display identically on every channel with every properly compensated probe.

I have very similar issue with my MSO7014, but in my case all the channels gives me the same result.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds7000/msg2190588/#msg2190588 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds7000/msg2190588/#msg2190588)

When tried with 50 Ohm input I got clean, perfectly compensated signal.

Ah-oh, that is not good.  See below.

Quote
#nctnico suggested that this may be due to a crossover between LF & HF what kind of makes sense.

That could cause it however another source is "hook" from the printed circuit board substrate; see the linked article. (1) It could also be excessive dielectric absorption in a resistor or capacitor in the high impedance circuits.  Shunt protection circuits, typically diodes, can also cause problems like this.

What is odd is that one channel does not display it.  A channel should also not display this sort of difference between using a 50 ohm source and a x10 high impedance probe of suitable bandwidth; both should be identical except perhaps in bandwidth which is not a factor here.

Quote
I hope that this can be calibrated and not something messed up on a hardware.

There are no manual front end adjustments on these oscilloscopes, at least as far as I have seen, so it is unlikely and even if there was, this would not correct hook if it existed.  The problem with hook also comes up with cheaply manufactured high voltage differential probes which drift out of calibration over time.

Quote
Just wondering if all MSO5k / MSO7k have similar compensation signal issue.

I suspect this represents a poorly specified design or quality control failure which will vary significantly between production runs.

In principle (if there can be a simple answer  :)) is this a serious issue, or I'm just overthinking around it?  :)

How serious this issue is depends on your application.  I would not accept this poor level of performance on any oscilloscope and none of mine have had it except when the high impedance printed circuit board before the impedance buffer become contaminated requiring cleaning and a bake out.

The reason I suggested using a faster source, ideally a reference level pulse generator, is that it might reveal more about what is going on and the difference between the good and bad channels.  The oscilloscope's built in calibration output is only fast enough for compensation adjustment which is *not* the problem being displayed.

At this stage we're only looking at compensating the probes. We're not looking at rise times, ringing, or anything else.

Compensation of the front end high impedance attenuators and low and medium frequency compensation can make use of the same compensation signal used for attenuating probes.  They are all in the same frequency range.

Quote
The compensation signal on the front of the 'scope will be designed for zero overshoot, not for any other characteristics.

Often the compensation signal is not even designed for zero overshoot because high frequency content is irrelevant to low and medium frequency compensation.  The compensation signal however is designed to be very flat and have very low levels of tilt which is actually not as trivial to do as it seems because of saturation and recovery characteristics in semiconductors. (2)

These days it is pretty easy to get it right with CMOS designs.  The symmetrical output and what appears to be a first order response in the example you posted indicate a low impedance CMOS switch output driving an RC network to limit bandwidth and transition time which is a great way to generate the needed signal.

(1) The PDF is too large to include as a forum attachment so here is a link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1PnlWlBESa6v7Uovn2nh1HBtCPShI4y4P (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1PnlWlBESa6v7Uovn2nh1HBtCPShI4y4P)

(2) A current switched design using switching diodes should always work to produce the perfect output signal for probe compensation, right?  Wrong!  Some 2 nanosecond switching diodes inexplicably suffer from recovery "tails" which is process dependent so you have to qualify the 1N4148s or whatever to use in this type of circuit.  CMOS outputs made this type of circuit easier.  With some care, it can also be done with bipolar outputs or a linear output stage.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: offmar on February 21, 2019, 06:53:37 pm
It's not ringing.

Have you tried to measure  AWG (Arbitrary Wave Generator) output ?
Set it to 1-15 Mhz square wave and check signal ringing at rising / falling edge.

I've been mainly using the compensation generator. When testing with AWG at 1Mhz and above, the ringing is present.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 21, 2019, 08:59:05 pm
Hm-hm...

I was sure I hadn´t this Problem, but now I´ll grab the rest of the probes and check it tomorrow again…
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: offmar on February 22, 2019, 02:35:43 pm
(1) The PDF is too large to include as a forum attachment so here is a link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1PnlWlBESa6v7Uovn2nh1HBtCPShI4y4P (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1PnlWlBESa6v7Uovn2nh1HBtCPShI4y4P)

Thank you! The entire post and that document are very informative.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 22, 2019, 04:37:55 pm
Quote
I was sure I hadn´t this Problem

Yepp, test it again, all channels do not have an overshoot in the compensating signal.

Here some pics from channel 4:

With the original probe:

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/190222/temp/xa5j49sw.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5371/xa5j49sw_jpg.htm)

Philips probe, BW 100Mhz:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190222/temp/7i4qsalt.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5371/7i4qsalt_jpg.htm)

LeCroy Probe, PP019-2, BW 250Mhz:

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/190222/temp/kkfxx67k.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5371/kkfxx67k_jpg.htm)

Then I took a 1Mhz square, source was a rigol AWG :

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190222/temp/9n5bc9qt.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5371/9n5bc9qt_jpg.htm)

Oh, it´s ringing…. ???

Wait..take another scope and let´s see if the ringing is still present:

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190222/temp/3tnxxvsv.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5371/3tnxxvsv_jpg.htm)

Yepp, it´s NOT the scope....

Check it with another AWG ( Agilent 33210):

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/190222/temp/3k8cmclg.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5371/3k8cmclg_jpg.htm)

Proved. ;)

My rigol is a MS5074, not "hacked"

Martin
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 22, 2019, 09:31:06 pm
The other channels:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190222/temp/yfmpzk3w.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5371/yfmpzk3w_jpg.htm)

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190222/temp/w9o9qw2e.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5371/w9o9qw2e_jpg.htm)

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190222/temp/iht9gc86.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5371/iht9gc86_jpg.htm)

Quote from: Fungus
Your 'scope (and compensation signal generator) have limited bandwidth, you'll never get it 100% square.

Although it seems to me, that the edges are a little bit "sharper" with the LeCroy Probe.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Bax on February 23, 2019, 03:37:23 am
The question is, do the Rigol PVP2350 probes meet their intended specs.

What's the result if the probes are set at 1x? On my 'scope the signal has the same overshoot as with 10x compensated. Both times getting signal from the 1kHz compensation generator.



Same result as you with 1X.

Selecting band limit to 20MHz cleans up the display a bit but the overshoot is still seen.

BTW, my scope has not had the hack applied.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Bax on February 23, 2019, 03:47:50 am

The other channels:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190222/temp/yfmpzk3w.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5371/yfmpzk3w_jpg.htm)

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190222/temp/w9o9qw2e.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5371/w9o9qw2e_jpg.htm)

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190222/temp/iht9gc86.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5371/iht9gc86_jpg.htm)



Your traces look a lot cleaner than mine, they are thin. With the default settings, my horizontal lines are wider (noisy).

What settings did you use ? Was band limit selected for the channels?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 23, 2019, 07:17:03 am
The other channels:

looks perfect to me.

Your traces look a lot cleaner than mine, they are thin. With the default settings, my horizontal lines are wider (noisy).

Doesn't mean anything, you might be near a radio station or a noisy light bulb or something.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 23, 2019, 10:56:52 am
Quote
What settings did you use ? Was band limit selected for the channels?

Probes were setting to 1:10, no bandwith limit - You can see it in the picture, below the grid, the channel state (white arrow):

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190223/temp/o8jqjf6h.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5372/o8jqjf6h_jpg.htm)

It shows V/div. and actual offset, but also a "B" for bandwith limit if selected.

Like here:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190223/temp/dls42r4i.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5372/dls42r4i_png.htm)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Commodore8888 on February 23, 2019, 04:02:37 pm
Ditto here with an MSO5074(upgraded, Early Jan batch) and an MSO7k.
Tried both with various probes and an agilent arbgen.
Still couldn't get rid of that silly overshoot. Almost looks like it's getting
superimposed after most of the input stage. Using some RG58 and a
50Ohm cleared it up some, but odd to see when the same setup
did nothing on a DS1KZ and an MDO3k.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 23, 2019, 09:07:18 pm
Today, I did some measurements on a signalboard which delivers among others a three-phase pwm signal.
And I was a little bit dissapointed.
As known from all the different lecroy models on the work, as known from the SDS1104X-E, the MSO 5074 couldn´t display a "stable" pwm-signal.
I couldn´t describe it better, but the signal "jitters" on the screen, as if you don´t have the trigger proper set.
On the lecroys/siglent, the signal is "stable" displaying.
Sure, with single-shot pressing one after another you can see the signal width going from small to wide and back - But it´s annoying and it would be much more comfortable and less irritating when the rigol does it like lecroy/siglent.
And I try to use the "lowpass" math function to seperate the sinewave out from the pwm.
To set the cutoff frequency of say 1000hz, you must set the timebase of several hundreds of milli-seconds.
It works, but you can´t see much from the sinewave which period is way shorter than the actual timebase set.
Therefore a free selectable cutoff frequency independent from the timebase would be necessary, otherwise the filter functions makes no sense at all.

To the PWM thing, after rigol complaining my "problem" they told me to increase the trigger hold-of time - And this works  :)
Increasing the hold-off time to (in my case) 67ms (standard 8ns) will give the view on the PWMs described before.

And, Filters:

You must decrease the memory (and increase the timebase) to get lower cut-off frequency, it works I could set the cutoff to 1Khz and get the sinewave out of the signal.
But it seems to me like no top solution, it can´t be triggered proper because of the larger timebase - still I want to set the cut-off frequency independent from timebase/memory.

Quote
Still couldn't get rid of that silly overshoot.

Some have the problems, some (most ?) don´t….what could this mean, in worst case a hardware problem - In any case, rigol should be informed and I would give the unit back for warranty in Your case.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mindy on February 25, 2019, 11:11:42 am
Quote
Your traces look a lot cleaner than mine, they are thin. With the default settings, my horizontal lines are wider (noisy).
I can confirm that I see more noise on my scope (MSO7014) as well (same issue with a "Hook" on compensation & Overshoot on AWG 1 Mhz and above).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: A Hellene on February 25, 2019, 12:14:24 pm
Quote
Your traces look a lot cleaner than mine, they are thin. With the default settings, my horizontal lines are wider (noisy).
I can confirm that I see more noise on my scope (MSO7014) as well (same issue with a "Hook" on compensation & Overshoot on AWG 1 Mhz and above).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=661767)

Well, I am afraid that it kind of reminds me of this issue:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3738.0;attach=10799)
Rigol DS1052E nasty surprise! (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/rigol-ds1052e-nasty-surprise!/)

I hope it is not...

-George
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on February 25, 2019, 02:32:37 pm
I ordered one unit, but I might consider cancelling and holding until this issue is resolved...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 25, 2019, 06:10:26 pm
Quote
Your traces look a lot cleaner than mine, they are thin. With the default settings, my horizontal lines are wider (noisy).
I can confirm that I see more noise on my scope (MSO7014) as well (same issue with a "Hook" on compensation & Overshoot on AWG 1 Mhz and above).


Reducing the memory depth should decrease the noise, try it out..

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mindy on February 25, 2019, 06:53:58 pm
Reducing the memory depth should decrease the noise, try it out..

Made some more tests and I can just conclude that my unit is defective and requires some attention from Rigol engineers.
Contacted Rigol support regarding this last week but no reaction yet.

Does anybody had an "opportunity" to try a Warranty service in Europe and knows the procedure & address I should send it to?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: _Wim_ on February 25, 2019, 07:38:06 pm
Made some more tests and I can just conclude that my unit is defective and requires some attention from Rigol engineers.
Contacted Rigol support regarding this last week but no reaction yet.

Does anybody had an "opportunity" to try a Warranty service in Europe and knows the procedure & address I should send it to?

Are you sure your probes are set to 1/10 like Martin72? Do you see the noise also with a 50 ohm terminator on the input (to rule your it is noise picked up from the environment).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 25, 2019, 09:55:37 pm
Quote
Contacted Rigol support regarding this last week but no reaction yet.

Does anybody had an "opportunity" to try a Warranty service in Europe and knows the procedure & address I should send it to?


https://www.rigol.eu/contact-us/ (https://www.rigol.eu/contact-us/)

I´m in touch with them since january, they answered quick and give me great support so far.
I´ll contact them again, with link to this here.

Edit : Done, their answer to this issue will be posted here.

Edit 2 : Both persons are absent until march
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: sq6iyn on February 27, 2019, 07:50:14 pm
Helo
New firmware?  MSO5000_00.01.01.04.04
http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Commodore8888 on February 27, 2019, 09:59:27 pm

Quote
Still couldn't get rid of that silly overshoot.

Some have the problems, some (most ?) don´t….what could this mean, in worst case a hardware problem - In any case, rigol should be informed and I would give the unit back for warranty in Your case.

That may sadly ends up what happens. I'll be contacting support to see if they've had other reports. The 7k at work is noticeably worse than the 5k I have here at home I just checked. It seems to be a per channel thing, as 1,2,3 on the 5k show it, but ch.4 is nearly flat.

The 7k is govt owned...which means warranty will probably be done and gone by the time paperwork to ship went through  |O . That they both do it leads me to think we're dealing with their chipset or firmware decisions.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 27, 2019, 10:15:49 pm
The fact that I don´t have these problems let me think about a hardware problem.
As I said it before, I had a compensation problem with new probes (on a lecroy scope)- You can´t trim them perfect, with other you could.
And so it seems, in this case, the compensation problem lies unfortunately in the frontend, when any probe can´t be trimmed to normal.
I´m curious about rigol´s answer….And reaction.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on February 28, 2019, 05:43:37 am
And so it seems, in this case, the compensation problem lies unfortunately in the frontend, when any probe can´t be trimmed to normal.

At least not those probes.  Some probes include more adjustments than just the the LF/MF compensation but this should not be necessary at only 100 MHz or at low frequencies as with the case here.

The acid test is to use a 50 ohm source which requires no compensation; the DSO should display it perfectly.  But if the 50 ohm test and the properly compensated and working probe do not display the same thing, then the DSO is broken.

This is why oscilloscope calibration occurs in two stages starting with a 50 ohm source.  The second stage uses a "normalizer" which simulates a probe although a x10 probe can also be used to calibrate the input capacitance of any input attenuators.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 28, 2019, 07:10:17 pm
Helo
New firmware?  MSO5000_00.01.01.04.04
http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)

Here are the changes listed:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2231226/#msg2231226 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2231226/#msg2231226)

Today I´ve tested some of them :

Quote
- Added 500uV/div in vertical scale.
  Check, OK.

Quote
- The waveform can zoom out by drawing a rectangle. If you draw a rectangle
       from the top left to the bottom right, the waveform will zoom in. If you
       draw it from the bottom right to the top left(the opposite direction),
       the waveform will zoom out.

Can´t complain it - Tried to draw a "rectangle", nothing happens for zoom in/out, zooming already existed per spreading sideways with your fingers…

Quote
- Added the GND coupling in channel.
Checked, OK.

Quote
- Enriched the color options of the LA channels.
Checked, OK.

Quote
- The boot time is reduced to less than 1 minute.
Checked, OK ( 59sec... ;) )

Quote
- Added the 12-bit high resolution mode.
Checked....ehhh not OK.

Hi-Res is selectable but it happens NOTHING, there´s no difference between Normal Mode and Hi-Res Mode....

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Commodore8888 on February 28, 2019, 09:32:50 pm
Look like some useful updates then.

Wonky hi-res, hmm.

Boot time and color options on digital are the ones I'd get excited over.
Now, does "enriched" mean added 2 or 3? Or a whole bunch. Sort of trivial to just add QT menu options on existing menus....
SSH is gonsky though. Bit bummed there.

I'll be curious to see what Rigol EU says Martin. I'm also in the middle of pinging Rigol NA (but they most likely all share the same "issues" email).

So....wonder if the second set of MSO 7k's the lab ordered a few weeks ago will also show the same issues when they show up. I may be driving a van full of scopes to the UPS store for warranty :( .........


For reference, a happy DS1054Z, vs a grump MSO5k....
Input is the reference from the DS1kZ.
Tried also at work with a rather fancy Agilent gen and 50Ohm. No ringing...same overshoot. RIP.

Interestingly though, the 50Ohm internal path on the 7k just about eliminated the goofy overshoot.
Still present using a 50Ohm feedthrough however.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 28, 2019, 09:55:02 pm
Normally, Rigol EU answers promptly, therefore I expect a reaction tomorrow(when one of them returned into office).

Reduced boot time....I stop the time from power it on until the screen comes up - 59 seconds and a few more, but under 1min... ;D
I don´t have any overshoot-issues here, but your and other ones issues makes me carefully to recommending the 5000/7000 to others.
Until this will be solved.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 01, 2019, 05:02:35 pm
Hi,
As I told, rigol anwered me today...very nice.

They already know about and work on it...

So it´s an "official" bug with the overshoots…

Martin
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: luma on March 01, 2019, 07:22:10 pm
Maybe they'll send us a bag of capacitors to resolve it ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 01, 2019, 07:31:57 pm
 ;D

Quote
Wonky hi-res, hmm.

Thought about the "non-functional" hi-res mode…
What Do I expect from - Cleaner filtered waveforms.
What don´t happen if You choose the hi-res mode on the 5000 ?

Right, nothing:

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/190301/temp/t8hyx5hr.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5378/t8hyx5hr_png.htm)

Normal Mode

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190301/temp/q3cyorq5.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5378/q3cyorq5_png.htm)

Hi-Res Mode
But look now, If the memory depth are decreased to it´s minimum of 1k :

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190301/temp/k7vlehll.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5378/k7vlehll_png.htm)

Normal Mode

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190301/temp/rtdacdlo.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5378/rtdacdlo_png.htm)

Hi-Res Mode

A-ha....Bandwith limited.
Seems, hi-res does exists but somehow "wrong"....or too less.

Test:  A PWM-Signal with 400Hz sinewave modulation - If you reduce the memdepth in hi-res / enhanced Resolution mode, the scope displays the sinewave because of the limited BW.

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190301/temp/x7ln8gsa.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5378/x7ln8gsa_png.htm)

PWM signal in normal mode

And now, in hi-res mode:

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/190301/temp/s559odpi.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5378/s559odpi_png.htm)

Tadaa....a sinewave  ;)
The hi-res mode is active on the 5000, but somehow too "weak".
I got a idea and grab the lecroy ws3024 - it has (of course) a hi-res mode called "enhanced resolution" (siglent also).
Same settings but you can choose number of bits adding in 0.5 bit steps.
And this is what I from the lecroy get:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190301/temp/mplqmlgy.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5378/mplqmlgy_jpg.htm)

Nearly the same....

And now, again the lecroy:

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190301/temp/zr7l56mx.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5378/zr7l56mx_jpg.htm)

Bingo, a nice sinewave.... 8)
What have I done ? Right, the full resolution taken, in this case +3bit, the lecroy works then with 8+3bits  - this is the hi-res mode.

So what does it means...
It seems, the rigol add max. 1.5bits only - and NOT 4bits as mentioned in the changes of the firmware ("12bit resolution").
I guess, that´s the reason for seeing nearly nothing changing in hi-res mode.

Martin

Edit : Another example, a pfc-current via 1ohm resistor, quiet noisy….

MSO 5000, Normal Mode:

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/190301/temp/xl5hbqip.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5378/xl5hbqip_jpg.htm)

Hi-Res Mode:

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190301/temp/3bi28xx5.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5378/3bi28xx5_jpg.htm)

Same Signal, but now the siglent sds :

Normal Mode:

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190301/temp/nuvvxvak.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5378/nuvvxvak_jpg.htm)


Hi-Res Mode (+3bits) :

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190301/temp/nmggmo2j.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5378/nmggmo2j_jpg.htm)

THIS is what I expect from a hi-res mode….







Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Commodore8888 on March 01, 2019, 09:36:44 pm
Hi,
As I told, rigol anwered me today...very nice.

They already know about and work on it...

So it´s an "official" bug with the overshoots…

Martin

Here's hoping it's just a few tweaks in #defines.

(The pessimist in me thinks it still means hauling a van load of scopes to UPS, and dying in a fire to shipping fees  :-DD |O)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mabl on March 01, 2019, 10:09:27 pm
Hi guys,

I recently received my 5074. While trying to compensate the 10x probes, I'm unable to get the perfect square shape of the signal. On channels 1,2,4 I always get some overcompensation. On channel 3 it looks perfect. I've attached pictures to illustrate. Is it normal or should I return it, while still can?

Thanks!

Interestingly, I observed the same overshoots after upgrading to 01.01.04.04 and doing a calibration. Before everything look very nice. (It also appears in the non-hacked firmware)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 01, 2019, 10:18:22 pm
Meanwhile I don´t have any Problems in this case, from the beginning till the upgrades ( to beta, to official).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 01, 2019, 10:24:28 pm
;D

Quote
Wonky hi-res, hmm.

Thought about the "non-functional" hi-res mode…
What Do I expect from - Cleaner filtered waveforms.
What don´t happen if You choose the hi-res mode on the 5000 ?

Right, nothing:

What happens if you set memory depth to "auto"? Both of your choices might be outside the range that can be used for this.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 01, 2019, 10:39:48 pm
Interesting objection, test it out on monday - Scope is on work.
Although I did tests under various mem depth conditions already, but I´ll test it under auto again.
Nevertheless, I want the hi-res option selectable by 0.5 bits steps, as the lecroy and siglent models got.



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on March 02, 2019, 12:49:20 am
Interesting objection, test it out on monday - Scope is on work.
Although I did tests under various mem depth conditions already, but I´ll test it under auto again.
Nevertheless, I want the hi-res option selectable by 0.5 bits steps, as the lecroy and siglent models got.
This basically is the same as input signal filtering but with a variable cut-off frequency. I'd prefer the cut-off frequency to be constant over memory depth and samplerate. Do keep in mind that the signal will need a certain amount of noise for hires to actually work and not show fantasy signals. Hires isn't a replacement for having more bits from the ADC.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 02, 2019, 01:42:50 am
Interesting objection, test it out on monday - Scope is on work.
Although I did tests under various mem depth conditions already, but I´ll test it under auto again.
Nevertheless, I want the hi-res option selectable by 0.5 bits steps, as the lecroy and siglent models got.

This basically is the same as input signal filtering but with a variable cut-off frequency. I'd prefer the cut-off frequency to be constant over memory depth and samplerate. Do keep in mind that the signal will need a certain amount of noise for hires to actually work and not show fantasy signals. Hires isn't a replacement for having more bits from the ADC.

There is almost always plenty of noise even after the vertical attenuation stages.  The only exceptions I have seen are in some old DSOs which used flash converters where the combined ADC and vertical signal chain noise was less than 1 LSB; on these if you adjust the position/offset just right, you can get a straight line with no or very few LSB transitions which might make you think the DSO is broken.  Feed these DSOs with a clean triangle wave and average to 16 bits and you get a nice picture of the ADC's differential non-linearity as a stair-step.

Do not forget that high resolution mode on earlier Rigol DSOs did not actually return higher resolution; the sample resolution remained 8 bits where the user might expect 16 bit samples.  Could this explain the discrepancy and limitation here?

This might be easy enough to check; is the record length halved when high resolution mode is used?  What about in average mode?

In high resolution mode, old DSOs just boxcar averaged the input samples to produce a higher resolution acquisition sample at whatever the oversampling ratio was which is relatively easy in limited hardware and produces consistent results.  Constant bandwidth would require at least a different FIR filter for every oversampling ratio which could get very messy at high ratios.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 02, 2019, 10:19:40 am
Quote
Hires isn't a replacement for having more bits from the ADC.

I knew it already, but other brands could handle it as it allows to show noisy signals crisper, actually the rigol couldn´t do it.

Quote
This might be easy enough to check; is the record length halved when high resolution mode is used?  What about in average mode?

Will be checked on monday.

Edit :

Have a look at the pics:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2233980/#msg2233980 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2233980/#msg2233980)

Record length won´t change or will not displayed.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: RedCali on March 02, 2019, 01:05:29 pm
Hi All,

had anyone tried the "Color Grade" mode - setting is found in the display menu.
Just saw the scope on the fair in Nuremberg - and the Color Grad mode was buggy as well - just displayed a gray colored line if switch on the colr grad-  just works only once :-)
Thanks for testing!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 03, 2019, 04:31:21 pm
Quote
Hires isn't a replacement for having more bits from the ADC.

I knew it already, but other brands could handle it as it allows to show noisy signals crisper, actually the rigol couldn´t do it.

It is a great feature.  I first encountered it on the Tektronix TDS400 series of DSOs.

Quote
Quote
This might be easy enough to check; is the record length halved when high resolution mode is used?  What about in average mode?

Will be checked on monday.

Edit :

Have a look at the pics:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2233980/#msg2233980 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2233980/#msg2233980)

Record length won´t change or will not displayed.

That probably means only 8 bit samples are returned from the digitizer in any mode so it is the same crippled high resolution and average modes as before in the Rigol DS1000Z series.  I doubt Rigol would sacrifice half of their marketed record length with the accompanying loss in speed or include twice as much memory and bandwidth like Tektronix did.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mabl on March 03, 2019, 06:32:49 pm
Interestingly, I observed the same overshoots after upgrading to 01.01.04.04 and doing a calibration. Before everything look very nice. (It also appears in the non-hacked firmware)

I copied my backuped calibration files back (all *.hex in /rigol/data) and the spikes are gone. So it is definitely something in the calibration routine.

EDIT: After using the old calibration files, I cannot reproduce the state with the extra peak anymore.  Strange. But at least it is okay now.

EDIT2:
Starting from the default calibration files in /rigol/default, I get the problematic calibration. So it looks like the current calibration effects the new calibration.
I believe my original calibration was overwritten during my upgrade, which then resulted in the problematic autocalibration.

EDIT3:
The problematic calibration is lfcal.hex. Just replacing that file gives perfectly shaped squares again.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 03, 2019, 08:10:18 pm
EDIT3:
The problematic calibration is lfcal.hex. Just replacing that file gives perfectly shaped squares again.

Sounds to me like they're driving one of the front-end opamps harder than before and creating a problem with overload/recovery.

It's good to know it can be fixed and it's not a hardware problem.

OTOH it needs fixing ASAP.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 03, 2019, 10:24:34 pm
Told them(rigol eu).
What I can´t complain in general:
Why do I haven´t these issues ?
Bought it, everything was fine - where others with the same firmware have the problem.
Then the new firmware is avaible, I did the upgrade - And still have no problems with overshoots.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on March 03, 2019, 10:29:27 pm
It may be that not every unit is affected in the same way. After all self-adjustment is to counteract component variations.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on March 03, 2019, 10:40:51 pm
EDIT3:
The problematic calibration is lfcal.hex. Just replacing that file gives perfectly shaped squares again.

Sounds to me like they're driving one of the front-end opamps harder than before and creating a problem with overload/recovery.

It's good to know it can be fixed and it's not a hardware problem.

OTOH it needs fixing ASAP.

Not necessarily. As i mentioned before, they might have some kind of signal equalisation that is tunable in software.
There are all kinds of bandwidth tuning, step response tuning, delay tuning etc. that can be done in front end and in pure digital domain.
It is a known concept.

Take a look at :
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/dsp_in_oscilloscopes.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/dsp_in_oscilloscopes.pdf)
and
https://download.tek.com/document/55W_17589_2.pdf (https://download.tek.com/document/55W_17589_2.pdf)

And nctnico is right.  Self cal and tunable front end is there to achieve calibrated results despite component variations.
It is obvious that platform is fully capable of very advanced techniques. But they will not have as much experience doing this as those doing it for years.
So it might take them some time to get it right... Or not so much time.. We'll see..
It took R&S 2 years to make their new platform fairly stable and feature rich. They are still missing search over basic serial protocols, and they have no search whatsoever over massive segmented memory that makes it pretty much useless, except for few tasks.

Rigol is still in a very early production phase where they still get the benefit of the doubt, and a pretty good chance they will make it work decently.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 03, 2019, 10:52:23 pm
I am excited about what rigol will do with the not really workable hi-res mode….
It even don´t work proper on the DS1000Z models and they are from 2015.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: offmar on March 04, 2019, 06:15:31 am
Told them(rigol eu).
What I can´t complain in general:
Why do I haven´t these issues ?
Bought it, everything was fine - where others with the same firmware have the problem.
Then the new firmware is avaible, I did the upgrade - And still have no problems with overshoots.

I will check later to be sure, but I suspect that auto-cal does nothing... I have the overshoots on 3 channels and nothing changes when I use auto-cal. I even did it while I had input signals fed to all channels - the result didn’t change, everything looked as before, and I suppose that in that scenario the ‘scope should have lost calibration.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: offmar on March 04, 2019, 06:23:49 am
EDIT3:
The problematic calibration is lfcal.hex. Just replacing that file gives perfectly shaped squares again.

mabl, would it be possible for you to upload, or send to me, your working lfcal.hex?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 04, 2019, 06:03:19 pm
Hi All,

had anyone tried the "Color Grade" mode - setting is found in the display menu.
Just saw the scope on the fair in Nuremberg - and the Color Grad mode was buggy as well - just displayed a gray colored line if switch on the colr grad-  just works only once :-)
Thanks for testing!

Today I´ve checked it out:

Normal:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190304/temp/sbbfyszx.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5381/sbbfyszx_png.htm)

Colorgraded:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190304/temp/3tco3fpz.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5381/3tco3fpz_png.htm)

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190304/temp/gq7owdpc.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5381/gq7owdpc_png.htm)

Looks fine with no problems...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 04, 2019, 06:26:11 pm
This might be easy enough to check; is the record length halved when high resolution mode is used?  What about in average mode?

Here we go,

Normal Mode

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190304/temp/djtudlzg.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5381/djtudlzg_png.htm)

The so called Hires Mode

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190304/temp/uoqbhn5x.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5381/uoqbhn5x_png.htm)

No changes in samplerate and record lenght.

Average Mode

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190304/temp/3w8w7xga.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5381/3w8w7xga_png.htm)

Here´s a reaction, the samplerate decrease from 8 to 4GS/s and record lenght from 100 to 25Mpts - Once, independend from the number of averages.

I did the same thing with a Lecroy WS3024,

Normal:

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190304/temp/6ieqwubb.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5381/6ieqwubb_jpg.htm)

Average:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190304/temp/nhcd84t8.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5381/nhcd84t8_jpg.htm)

Samplerate and record length decreases dramatically, from 2 GS/s to 2 MS/s and from 10Mpts to 1kpt

Although, in hi-res mode samplerate and record lenght remains :

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190304/temp/dr42vpd9.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5381/dr42vpd9_jpg.htm)


Quote
Told them(rigol eu).

They thanked for this and will give it forward to the R&D.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mabl on March 04, 2019, 07:04:09 pm
EDIT3:
The problematic calibration is lfcal.hex. Just replacing that file gives perfectly shaped squares again.

mabl, would it be possible for you to upload, or send to me, your working lfcal.hex?

See attached.


I will check later to be sure, but I suspect that auto-cal does nothing... I have the overshoots on 3 channels and nothing changes when I use auto-cal. I even did it while I had input signals fed to all channels - the result didn’t change, everything looked as before, and I suppose that in that scenario the ‘scope should have lost calibration.

Cannot confirm. When using the default calibration, the spikes are less pronounced then after the autocalibration. Things do not change afterwards however.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Commodore8888 on March 04, 2019, 10:52:40 pm
So fun story, the cal data in mabl's "good" file, "fixed" the whacky overshoots on my late Dec MSO5k on .02.03.

Significantly reduced overshoot, as in, essentially gone.

Also amusing is that Autocal didn't seem much fazed by putting insane signals on the inputs...  Try again in a bit.

Overshoots gonski just using the file straight. I frankly didn't expect it to work nearly this well given component/temp/etc variances.
Going to try a cal and see if that hoses it up.

I'll also be dragging said cal file off to work, and trying this on our MSO7k's. Everything I know tells me this probably won't work, but...they ARE using the same ASICs (with admittedly different front ends) so who knows. Can't really get any worse and easy enough to undo.


EDIT:Just ran self cal, and things look even better. It's as if the autocal algo (if it does much at all) tries to base itself off previous data or some bad coeffs were loaded at factory. Without having diassm'd the cal script, hard to say though.

EDIT 2: The plot thickens. My original guess about "not 100% correct" were right. Mabl's lfcal.hex did get rid of the overshoot...but turned it into a less pervasive undershoot! Weak enough it to be easily comped out by a probe, but visible on a 50Ohm terminated line out of a sig gen. Autocal as before appears to have zero effect on this part of hardware calibration.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on March 05, 2019, 12:50:58 am
Interesting objection, test it out on monday - Scope is on work.
Although I did tests under various mem depth conditions already, but I´ll test it under auto again.
Nevertheless, I want the hi-res option selectable by 0.5 bits steps, as the lecroy and siglent models got.

This basically is the same as input signal filtering but with a variable cut-off frequency. I'd prefer the cut-off frequency to be constant over memory depth and samplerate. Do keep in mind that the signal will need a certain amount of noise for hires to actually work and not show fantasy signals. Hires isn't a replacement for having more bits from the ADC.

There is almost always plenty of noise even after the vertical attenuation stages.  The only exceptions I have seen are in some old DSOs which used flash converters where the combined ADC and vertical signal chain noise was less than 1 LSB; on these if you adjust the position/offset just right, you can get a straight line with no or very few LSB transitions which might make you think the DSO is broken.  Feed these DSOs with a clean triangle wave and average to 16 bits and you get a nice picture of the ADC's differential non-linearity as a stair-step.
Many modern DSOs have very low noise ADCs which produce almost a flat line especially with the 20MHz bandwidth on.
Quote
This might be easy enough to check; is the record length halved when high resolution mode is used?  What about in average mode?
That doesn't have to be true. Hi-res can also be done as a post-processing step when the signal is displayed. For example: on the R&S RTM3004 the memory depth doesn't half when hi-res is selected.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: offmar on March 05, 2019, 12:28:49 pm
So fun story, ...

Indeed, I checked which files are changed after the auto-cal is ran, then did a backup and replaced them with the files from the /rigol/default directory. With these "default" files, I got the overshoot on all four channels (before that, I had overshot of 1,2,4 channels and channel 3 was perfect) even after re-running auto-cal. In that sense, maybe it's not 100% correct, but that auto-cal does generally nothing. I still haven't tried mabl's file, but I suppose the overshoot would be gone.

In any case, manually tweaking these files, doesn't make me certain that my unit is calibrated... Event if I see that 1kHz compensation signal to be perfect, I personally can't be sure what happens at 1MHz, 50MHz, or with different signal shapes, etc., but I suppose this is what you get for 1000$...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 05, 2019, 01:09:15 pm
Auto-cal probably does nothing for 'overshoot', it's only interested in voltage levels.

The 'compensation' file might be installed at the factory. It would be interesting to find out how many variants there are of them, or even if every device has a unique file (ie. factory calibration for each 'scope)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tcottle on March 05, 2019, 03:53:44 pm
Interesting.  I just upgraded to 00.01.01.04.04 this morning.  My scope always showed a slight overshoot on all 4 channels.  With the update the amount of noise on each channel was dramatically reduced but the overshoot was still there.  I tried to re-compensate the 10x probes but could not improve the waveform.  Ran the self-cal and I now can compensate a 10x perfectly on all 4 channels!  The overshoot is still present when viewed in 1x
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 05, 2019, 06:59:22 pm
This might be easy enough to check; is the record length halved when high resolution mode is used?  What about in average mode?

Here we go,

Normal Mode

The so called Hires Mode

No changes in sample rate and record length.

That makes sense if the digitizer always produces 8 bit samples after decimation which seems to be common at least for Rigol.

Quote
Average Mode

Here´s a reaction, the samplerate decrease from 8 to 4GS/s and record lenght from 100 to 25Mpts - Once, independend from the number of averages.

This may make sense.  If the memory has to be split to allow room for processing, then the bandwidth might be divided also.

Quote
I did the same thing with a Lecroy WS3024,

Samplerate and record length decreases dramatically, from 2 GS/s to 2 MS/s and from 10Mpts to 1kpt

Although, in hi-res mode samplerate and record lenght remains :

LeCroy does their own thing and tends to rely on high performance processing rather than real time decimation.  They may be reporting the decimated sample rate instead of the digitizer sample rate.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 05, 2019, 07:50:21 pm
Many modern DSOs have very low noise ADCs which produce almost a flat line especially with the 20MHz bandwidth on.

Marketing loves the term "low noise"; it is nice and ambiguous when they do not give an actual number in the specifications which can be confirmed by the user.  None of the modern "low noise" DSOs I have tested had less noise than old analog or digital oscilloscopes although I am sure some exist.  This might be attributed to integrated CMOS amplifiers which can have truly horrible input noise but interleaving and pipelining the ADCs does not help.

If they did have low noise, then averaging a clean triangle wave as I described should return the stair-step pattern of the ADCs differential non-linearity and this is one way to measure it.

Quote
Quote
This might be easy enough to check; is the record length halved when high resolution mode is used?  What about in average mode?

That doesn't have to be true. Hi-res can also be done as a post-processing step when the signal is displayed. For example: on the R&S RTM3004 the memory depth doesn't half when hi-res is selected.

If high resolution processing is done during decimation, then the processing record takes twice as much memory if 16 bit values are returned.  The record length may or may not be halved depending on if it is based on 8 bit or 16 bit samples.

This is a marketing issue.  Which is the better of three DSOs with the same *amount* (cost) of sample memory when one always has the full (8 bit) record length, one has half the record length when high resolution or averaging mode is used, and one always has half the record length because it always processes 16 bit samples?

If high resolution processing is done after decimation in the same way, then the resulting record will be a fraction of its original length depending on the decimation ratio.  Maybe your R&S RTM3004 is applying a complete FIR filter and not decimating?  That is usually not feasible during decimation which is why boxcar averaging is used instead.  Boxcar averaging is of course a (poor) FIR filter but a very simple to implement one which only requires adds and optional shifts.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on March 05, 2019, 07:59:28 pm
All hi-res modes I've seen have a cut-off frequency depending on the samplerate which implies hi-res is always done after decimation. I'm quite sure the memory length getting halved on some oscilloscopes has to do with the hardware architecture and not what is the best point to do the hi-res filtering.

A lot of the low end scopes based on Analog devices (formerly Hittite) all in one front-ends have really low noise levels.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 05, 2019, 08:13:33 pm
All hi-res modes I've seen have a cut-off frequency depending on the samplerate which implies hi-res is always done after decimation.

What?

For boxcar averaging, which produces a sin(x)/x frequency response, the cutoff frequency depends *only* on integration time which is the product of the sample rate and number of samples which depends on the decimation ratio.

Newer DSOs might be doing something else like an FIR after decimation but all of the older DSOs did boxcar averaging as part of decimation which is why the record length did not change in high resolution mode.  Or the record length might be halved to handle 16 bit samples as I described earlier.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 05, 2019, 11:34:10 pm
Quote
That makes sense if the digitizer always produces 8 bit samples after decimation which seems to be common at least for Rigol.

When you see in hi-res nothing "cleaner" as in normal, what make the hi-res mode any sense at all...
Even the low cost siglent (the pictures I posted) could do this.
If rigol couldn´t handle this for what reasons ever, they should leave it.
And not disclaim a hi-res mode which doesen´t have any remarkable effect.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: orion242 on March 05, 2019, 11:50:34 pm
Just wondering if anyone else has had issues capturing the HDMI output of the MSO5000?

My Magwell capture device absolutely would not recognize the output from the scope.  No problem hooking it up to a HDMI TV or monitor, just a no go when trying to capture it.

Guessing they have HDCP enabled for whatever reason??  Had to get an HDMI splitter that doesn't pass that flag thru to finally get something I could capture.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on March 06, 2019, 12:20:49 am
Quote
That makes sense if the digitizer always produces 8 bit samples after decimation which seems to be common at least for Rigol.
When you see in hi-res nothing "cleaner" as in normal, what make the hi-res mode any sense at all...
Even the low cost siglent (the pictures I posted) could do this.
If rigol couldn´t handle this for what reasons ever, they should leave it.
And not disclaim a hi-res mode which doesen´t have any remarkable effect.
Well, Rigol wouldn't be the first manufacturer from China to leave features out which are in the datasheet. Hi-res probably hasn't been implemented yet.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 06, 2019, 12:36:21 am
Quote
That makes sense if the digitizer always produces 8 bit samples after decimation which seems to be common at least for Rigol.

When you see in hi-res nothing "cleaner" as in normal, what make the hi-res mode any sense at all...

It does lower the noise on single shot acquisitions.  If resolution is defined from signal to noise ratio, then it does improve resolution.

I would make the same complaint about averaging 8 bit data to produce 8 bit data but again, it does reduce noise.

Quote
Even the low cost siglent (the pictures I posted) could do this.
If rigol couldn´t handle this for what reasons ever, they should leave it.
And not disclaim a hi-res mode which doesen´t have any remarkable effect.

Marketing is greater than engineering.  If you are not in sales, then you are overhead.

My preference would be for Rigol to use 16 bit processing of samples and a separate display record but it comes at a hardware and performance cost.  I would prefer this even at the expense of performance.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Bax on March 06, 2019, 01:03:51 am

Have you seen this HDMI interface

https://rigol.desk.com/customer/en/portal/articles/2966908-remote-interface-with-performance-instruments
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: rsjsouza on March 06, 2019, 03:57:53 am
Quote
That makes sense if the digitizer always produces 8 bit samples after decimation which seems to be common at least for Rigol.
When you see in hi-res nothing "cleaner" as in normal, what make the hi-res mode any sense at all...
Even the low cost siglent (the pictures I posted) could do this.
If rigol couldn´t handle this for what reasons ever, they should leave it.
And not disclaim a hi-res mode which doesen´t have any remarkable effect.
Well, Rigol wouldn't be the first manufacturer from China to leave features out which are in the datasheet. Hi-res probably hasn't been implemented yet.
Perhaps not on the DS5000, but on the DS4000 it is there. Proof that it may be simply a matter of time for Rigol to add this.

Normal mode:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=669153)

Hi-res mode:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=669159)

(as you can tell, sample rate and sampling memory were not reduced)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: seronday on March 06, 2019, 06:59:37 am
It appears that the low pass filter part of the Hi-Res mode has been implemented to some extent.
However it is necessary to manually select the sample memory size to obtain the result that you want.

The attached table shows the 6dB down roll off frequencies for a few combinations of mem size and horizontal settings that I have quickly tested.

As rsjsouza mentioned, Rigol have successfully implemented Hi-Res mode in the DS4000 series. ( and also the DS2000 series).
So possibly they have now forgotten how to do it, or they have some new inexperienced software developers.

Regards.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 06, 2019, 07:15:55 am
However it is necessary to manually select the sample memory size to obtain the result that you want.

Does it work in "auto" mode?

As rsjsouza mentioned, Rigol have successfully implemented Hi-Res mode in the DS4000 series. ( and also the DS2000 series).
So possibly they have now forgotten how to do it, or they have some new inexperienced software developers.

Or maybe this one has so much memory and sample rate that it's quite difficult to "downsample" it to single screen pixels, that only a narrow range of memory sizes can be done with the available processing power.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 06, 2019, 02:11:14 pm
Perhaps not on the DS5000, but on the DS4000 it is there. Proof that it may be simply a matter of time for Rigol to add this.

As rsjsouza mentioned, Rigol have successfully implemented Hi-Res mode in the DS4000 series. ( and also the DS2000 series).
So possibly they have now forgotten how to do it, or they have some new inexperienced software developers.

If the high resolution mode is implemented during decimation like older DSOs where the full record length is available at the highest sampling rate, then it requires hardware support between the ADC and sample memory.  It is not as simple as reprogramming the processor; it requires a change to or support from the FPGA if used.

The same applies to a feature like peak detection which also occurs during decimation.  If the processor does it, then it becomes envelope detection despite what Rigol continues to say in their misleading documentation.  Does anybody not think Rigol deliberately confused the two for a marketing advantage?  The same could be happening here by confusing high resolution mode with a FIR low pass filter implemented by the processor.

So far the tests indicate that high resolution mode if it exists is broken.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on March 06, 2019, 03:58:10 pm
You mean the MSO5000 doesn't have real peak detection? Perhaps an MSO5000 owner can do a test with narrow pulses. The trick is to have a pulse which is narrower than the sample period (both in normal and roll-mode).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 06, 2019, 09:37:54 pm
Here my wishlist for further firmware upgrades ( will be send to rigol too):

- A useable hi-res mode, like keysight, lecroy and even siglent have it

- All math functions could be displayed "stand alone" and/or:

- Split screen modes, for every channel, for every math function - This would be a real benefit - None provide it in this priceclass an wide above. ( so it will be a wish I guess)

- Free choosable colours for all traces - Math got one colour only, unfortunately "dark violet", what makes no sense in aspect to the dark screen.

- A free adjustable measure gate, "free" moveable on the screen ( you define a gate and could this one scroll to the whole screen- it measures only whats in the gate, known from older lecroy waverunner scopes)

- Bode plot function, makes really sense when you already got a build in wavegenerator (will come)

- Brighter Display (will come)





Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: el_man on March 06, 2019, 10:55:58 pm
Here my wishlist for further firmware upgrades ( will be send to rigol too):

- A useable hi-res mode, like keysight, lecroy and even siglent have it

- All math functions could be displayed "stand alone" and/or:

- Split screen modes, for every channel, for every math function - This would be a real benefit - None provide it in this priceclass an wide above. ( so it will be a wish I guess)

- Free choosable colours for all traces - Math got one colour only, unfortunately "dark violet", what makes no sense in aspect to the dark screen.

- A free adjustable measure gate, "free" moveable on the screen ( you define a gate and could this one scroll to the whole screen- it measures only whats in the gate, known from older lecroy waverunner scopes)

- Bode plot function, makes really sense when you already got a build in wavegenerator (will come)

- Brighter Display (will come)

Nice post Martin72

and if it is possible some more from me (arranged by priority)

1. Adjustable transparency to the floating windows - in some modes, like power analyzes, they almost cover the entire screen

2. In FFT mode the grid scale instead of time can show the frequency scale related to FFT diagram

3. A more reliable XY-mode with ability to show the waveforms along with diagram (as at DS1054Z) and option to choose which channels are involved, now it is fixed to ch1 and ch2



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 07, 2019, 01:06:16 am
I would like an RMS measurement function which actually measures RMS like my 30 year old Tektronix DSO can.  How could Rigol continuously get it wrong 30 years later?

You mean the MSO5000 doesn't have real peak detection?

No, the MSO5000 series probably has peak detection but earlier DSOs from Rigol before the DS1000Z series did not despite their documentation saying and continuing to say they do.  This leads to the confusion where peak detection means two different things depending on which Rigol DSO you are using or which documentation you are reading.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 07, 2019, 10:13:20 pm
I would like an RMS measurement function which actually measures RMS like my 30 year old Tektronix DSO can.  How could Rigol continuously get it wrong 30 years later?

Real measurement ? Please explain….
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on March 09, 2019, 02:53:54 am
Something is really messed-up with the front-end of the MSO5000.  I am using a 10KHz sinewave generated by the builtin AWG, BNC to crocodile, 10X Rigol probe.  In Normal acquisition mode, I cannot get a stable signal, it is triggering in both directions, rising and falling edge.  When I switch to average mode with 2 averages, the signal gets attenuated by more than 50%, then Hi-Res acquisition mode brings back the signal to full, but the double triggering disappears.  I use the same cable with the Rigol probe on my Keysight EDUX1002G and it works perfectly, as expected.

Can anyone try the same setup and verify?

MSO5K normal
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=671550;image)

MSO5K average
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=671556;image)

MSO5K HiRes
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=671562;image)

1000X Normal
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=671568;image)

1000X average
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=671574;image)

1000X HiRes
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=671580;image)

EDIT: changed 1KHz to 10KHz in my post.  Thanks Martin72
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 09, 2019, 06:24:12 am
I would like an RMS measurement function which actually measures RMS like my 30 year old Tektronix DSO can.  How could Rigol continuously get it wrong 30 years later?

Real measurement ? Please explain….

RMS measurements on the Rigol do not measure RMS accurately when many equal value frequency components are present.  Specifically, the Rigol cannot measure RMS noise which would be done for signal to noise or spot noise measurements.  I suspect this is caused by performing the RMS measurement on the display record which has been processed to combine multiple acquisitions likely destroying the RMS value.  It is not clear if this problem exists when only a single acquisition is displayed.

This also would explain why some measurements change value when a waveform is saved.

Someone measuring relatively noise free waveforms like phase control outputs or common waveforms would likely never notice.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on March 09, 2019, 10:36:12 am
Quote from: David Hess/
David, old Rigols did RMS over highly decimated screen pixel data. That resulted in measurents being made over filtered /distorted data.
 New ones do it either over 1MP or full buffer, so they should do it very well. But it is good that you reminded us about that. Someone with the scope could verify it. What do you think, what would be proper protocol to verify that RMS works well this time?
Regards
Sinisa
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 09, 2019, 01:13:49 pm
Quote
Can anyone try the same setup and verify?

Monday, but with an external gen.

Quote
I am using a 1KHz sinewave

Looks like 10Khz...

Quote
BNC to crocodile, 10X Rigol probe.

And what about a direct connection, bnc to bnc, same probs ?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on March 09, 2019, 01:32:12 pm
Quote
I am using a 1KHz sinewave

Looks like 10Khz...
You are correct, 10KHz

Quote
BNC to crocodile, 10X Rigol probe.

And what about a direct connection, bnc to bnc, same probs ?
BNC to BNC works OK
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on March 09, 2019, 01:51:05 pm
I have a suspicion of what is happening... this morning my EDUX1002G started doing a similar thing, but less frequent.  It is the noisy signal that is triggering when the sinewave is falling, but because of the noise level, it detects the noise rising portion of the signal.

I was able to capture a trigger on a falling edge of the sinewave with the Trigger set to rising edge.  I also changed the BNC fixture to discard a bad cable, I used a simple BNC with 50ohm cable and attached the probes to the end

I still get 50% reduction when acquire mode is set to average with 2 averages.  I also suspect it is because of the noisy input.  I see this 50% reduced signal on the scope, then I press SINGLE capture button and it shows a sinewave with the full Vpp.  But if I press STOP, it still shows the 50% reduced signal.

We need the experts opinion on why this could be happening.  Due to my limited knowledge, I cannot find a clear answer.

False trigger
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=672117;image)

BNC Fixture
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=672123;image)

Average acquisition, trigger RUN
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=672129;image)

Average acquisition, SINGLE trigger
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=672135;image)





Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on March 09, 2019, 02:24:51 pm
Try seting holdoff. Also try enabling high freq rejection trigger and set propper cutoff..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: kahuna0k on March 10, 2019, 12:38:17 am
I'm having issues measuring the amplitude of a 120Mhz sine wave generated by an "improved" Siglent SDG2042X. Connecting a 1.5m coax with an inline 50Ohm termination and setting the output of the generator to 50Ohm, 5Vpp, I get ~4.25Vpp in the hacked Rigol MSO5074, but 4.8Vpp in my (also hacked) Siglent SDS1104X-E. I've tried self calibrating both, with no improvement. I supposed that if the hack wouldn't work I should get a much lower amplitude than 4.25Vpp at 120Mhz. Maybe the cable is not the best (random Amazon's RG58) but I've tried with a shorter (around 70cm) with the same result.

Any idea about what's going on?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on March 10, 2019, 12:58:59 am
At these frequency the response likely isn't flat. Also an inline terminator isn't the best thing to use. As a rule of thumb: if you measure any signal over 100MHz forget about using 1M Ohm inputs and high impedance probes. You won't get accurate results.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on March 10, 2019, 02:06:31 am
I'm having issues measuring the amplitude of a 120Mhz sine wave generated by an "improved" Siglent SDG2042X. Connecting a 1.5m coax with an inline 50Ohm termination and setting the output of the generator to 50Ohm, 5Vpp, I get ~4.25Vpp in the hacked Rigol MSO5074, but 4.8Vpp in my (also hacked) Siglent SDS1104X-E.
Any idea about what's going on?
~120 MHz is the -3dB point for the SDS1104X-E so that's why P-P is a bit lower than expected.
Hacked it should be ~230 MHz.
But as nctnico has said, frequency response is not perfectly flat over the full range and inline terminators are not all equal.  ;)

Try using 1V P-P and shifting the frequency towards 120 MHz on your SDG to where you see 0.707V which is the theoretical -3dB point. Also allow for the amplitude accuracy spec for both scope and AWG from their datasheets.
You might even be able to use a slow AWG sweep setting and a slow time base to see this.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Shodge on March 10, 2019, 04:41:32 am
I assume you are using infinite persistence to show this?  I kind of noticed this with trigger levels below 1V previously, but as I was looking at digital signals - I assumed the noise was there.

My scope does this but is not consistent.  With infinite persistence, I can demonstrate it in 1-2 secs.

I am using the latest firmware - 04.04, AWG source and I tried both 1Khz and 10Khz.  1Khz seem a little worse.  On my scope, I can go to the trigger menu and turn on Noise Reject and it completely goes away.

My conclusion is that the scope has a noisy trigger... (see if this addresses your issue)

-Stan
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: kahuna0k on March 10, 2019, 07:19:51 am
I'm having issues measuring the amplitude of a 120Mhz sine wave generated by an "improved" Siglent SDG2042X. Connecting a 1.5m coax with an inline 50Ohm termination and setting the output of the generator to 50Ohm, 5Vpp, I get ~4.25Vpp in the hacked Rigol MSO5074, but 4.8Vpp in my (also hacked) Siglent SDS1104X-E.
Any idea about what's going on?
~120 MHz is the -3dB point for the SDS1104X-E so that's why P-P is a bit lower than expected.
Hacked it should be ~230 MHz.
But as nctnico has said, frequency response is not perfectly flat over the full range and inline terminators are not all equal.  ;)

Try using 1V P-P and shifting the frequency towards 120 MHz on your SDG to where you see 0.707V which is the theoretical -3dB point. Also allow for the amplitude accuracy spec for both scope and AWG from their datasheets.
You might even be able to use a slow AWG sweep setting and a slow time base to see this.

What I don't understand is that the hacked SDS1104X-E (200MHz) gives me more amplitude than the hacked MSO5074 (350MHz). Even at 50MHz, the SDS1104X-E measures 4.94V but the MSO5074 measures 4.7V, and this is using the same cable and the same inline terminator. While the Siglent is very consistent between 1MHz and 120MHz, the Rigol goes from ~5V to 4.3V from 1MHz to 120MHz.

When you say that the response is not flat, you mean the response of the oscilloscope? I would expect a 350Mhz scope to be able to measure with some accuracy the amplitude of a 120Mhz sine wave, if not what should I do? Could it be a defective unit?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on March 10, 2019, 08:53:40 am
I'm having issues measuring the amplitude of a 120Mhz sine wave generated by an "improved" Siglent SDG2042X. Connecting a 1.5m coax with an inline 50Ohm termination and setting the output of the generator to 50Ohm, 5Vpp, I get ~4.25Vpp in the hacked Rigol MSO5074, but 4.8Vpp in my (also hacked) Siglent SDS1104X-E.
Any idea about what's going on?
~120 MHz is the -3dB point for the SDS1104X-E so that's why P-P is a bit lower than expected.
Hacked it should be ~230 MHz.
But as nctnico has said, frequency response is not perfectly flat over the full range and inline terminators are not all equal.  ;)

Try using 1V P-P and shifting the frequency towards 120 MHz on your SDG to where you see 0.707V which is the theoretical -3dB point. Also allow for the amplitude accuracy spec for both scope and AWG from their datasheets.
You might even be able to use a slow AWG sweep setting and a slow time base to see this.

What I don't understand is that the hacked SDS1104X-E (200MHz) gives me more amplitude than the hacked MSO5074 (350MHz). Even at 50MHz, the SDS1104X-E measures 4.94V but the MSO5074 measures 4.7V, and this is using the same cable and the same inline terminator. While the Siglent is very consistent between 1MHz and 120MHz, the Rigol goes from ~5V to 4.3V from 1MHz to 120MHz.

When you say that the response is not flat, you mean the response of the oscilloscope? I would expect a 350Mhz scope to be able to measure with some accuracy the amplitude of a 120Mhz sine wave, if not what should I do? Could it be a defective unit?
Yes the DSO frequency response.

If it were me I'd hit Default for each DSO to return it to known factory settings then use Autoset and then add Vp-p and Vmax measurements and compare results. Compare apples with apples.  ;)

Take the time to grab some screenshots to post here too.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on March 10, 2019, 01:24:00 pm
I assume you are using infinite persistence to show this?  I kind of noticed this with trigger levels below 1V previously, but as I was looking at digital signals - I assumed the noise was there.
No, I am using minimum persistence
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: kahuna0k on March 10, 2019, 06:23:06 pm
Yes the DSO frequency response.

If it were me I'd hit Default for each DSO to return it to known factory settings then use Autoset and then add Vp-p and Vmax measurements and compare results. Compare apples with apples.  ;)

Take the time to grab some screenshots to post here too.

Switched to the coaxial that came with the SDG2042X and to a T plus 50Ohm terminator, got the same results:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on March 10, 2019, 06:54:27 pm
MSO5000 seems to have Gaussian response (constant slow rolloff) as opposed to Siglent flatter and sharper filter.
Bottom line is, scope bandwith is specified  at - 3dB which is 0.707 of baseline amplitude, meaning 3.53 V is cutoff frequency..
That means that within it's frequency range, Siglent will be more accurate in amplitude across it's bandwidth, but Rigol should have nicer step response. Each is better for some purposes..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on March 10, 2019, 07:41:12 pm
Yes the DSO frequency response.

If it were me I'd hit Default for each DSO to return it to known factory settings then use Autoset and then add Vp-p and Vmax measurements and compare results. Compare apples with apples.  ;)

Take the time to grab some screenshots to post here too.

Switched to the coaxial that came with the SDG2042X and to a T plus 50Ohm terminator, got the same results:
Interesting, thanks for grabbing those screenshots.
For the record please state the SDG p-p voltage setting, 5V I'm guessing.

Can I ask if you've done a Self Cal on all 3 instruments ?

Can you also check some DC measurement values ?
You can use the SDG to supply them. We'd be looking for similar inaccuracies and you can go back to 1 M ohm settings.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 10, 2019, 08:18:22 pm
David, old Rigols did RMS over highly decimated screen pixel data. That resulted in measurements being made over filtered /distorted data.

That is true of any DSO and any sampling RMS instrument.  Decimation does not alter the RMS value and instead increases the uncertainty.  This is easy enough to understand by considering what happens to the standard deviation of a set of data points when they are decimated; the standard deviation does not change but the uncertainty does.

Note that since decimation has no effect on the RMS value, aliasing does not either.  The noise depends on the bandwidth and not the sample rate.  The record length has a minor effect because low frequency noise components longer than the record length are not captured and some measurements take advantage of this to limit low frequency noise.

A DSO where the display record is a histogram like a DPO (digital phosphor oscilloscope) can also make an accurate RMS measurement of the display record.  So whatever Rigol is doing to produce a display record, it is not this.


Quote
What do you think, what would be proper protocol to verify that RMS works well this time?

When I did this test on my DSOs, I used one of my analog oscilloscopes to measure its own RMS noise using the tangential method and then I measured the same noise using the RMS function of my DSO.  They agreed to better than 5%.  I was alerted to the problem with Rigol's DSOs when someone posted a self noise measurement which was more than an order of magnitude too high and not consistent with the displayed noise.

In theory any Gaussian noise source can be used with a controlled measurement bandwidth however how do you calibrate the source?  I used the tangential measurement method with an analog oscilloscope for lack of anything better and that may be the most available method.  In theory a DSO can use this method but only if its display accurately duplicates the response of an analog display.  Most of the old Tektronix TDS series DSOs can do it as can an analog sampling oscilloscope but the display processing in newer DSOs prevents it.

My informal test when evaluating DSOs and I do not have a calibrated noise source handy is to just have the DSO measure its own front end noise but that only works because I know approximately what it should be and if it measures an order of magnitude or more high, I know the RMS function is broken.

Something is really messed-up with the front-end of the MSO5000.  I am using a 10KHz sinewave generated by the builtin AWG, BNC to crocodile, 10X Rigol probe.  In Normal acquisition mode, I cannot get a stable signal, it is triggering in both directions, rising and falling edge.  When I switch to average mode with 2 averages, the signal gets attenuated by more than 50%, then Hi-Res acquisition mode brings back the signal to full, but the double triggering disappears.  I use the same cable with the Rigol probe on my Keysight EDUX1002G and it works perfectly, as expected.

Can anyone try the same setup and verify?

I do not need to verify this as I know exactly what the problem is.  I think Dave even discusses and illustrates it in one of this videos but I know w2aew covered it; see the video below.

DDS/AWG outputs contain significant glitch energy from the quantized DAC steps which means any part of the waveform has high frequency rising and falling edges.  Depending on exactly how sensitive the trigger is and how it is implemented, the oscilloscope's trigger may see both edges.  This is much less of a problem with analog function generators which have a continuous (non-quantized) output but if their output is noisy enough, it can happen with them also.

For DSOs which implement an analog trigger path, the trigger coupling can sometimes be adjusted to prevent this.  For DSOs with a digital trigger path like the Rigol, trigger coupling depends on a digital filter and Rigol has had problems with this in the past.  Did they ever get AC trigger coupling working on their high end DSOs?  It was broken on the DS1000Z series for a long time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O99OTpSCEnM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O99OTpSCEnM)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: kahuna0k on March 11, 2019, 09:23:06 am
Interesting, thanks for grabbing those screenshots.
For the record please state the SDG p-p voltage setting, 5V I'm guessing.

Can I ask if you've done a Self Cal on all 3 instruments ?

Can you also check some DC measurement values ?
You can use the SDG to supply them. We'd be looking for similar inaccuracies and you can go back to 1 M ohm settings.

Yes, all self calibrated and the SDG p-p voltage was 5V. Using DC I get good measurements from both the SDS1104X-E and the MSO5074.

I think that what 2N3055 said applies perfectly. The Siglent has a much flatter response in its bandwidth, but also falls down much faster, I'm unable to "measure" anything over 400Mhz on it, with the Rigol I'm able to "measure" up to 1Ghz, although, of course, this depends heavily on the sampling rate.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on March 11, 2019, 09:32:05 am
Interesting, thanks for grabbing those screenshots.
For the record please state the SDG p-p voltage setting, 5V I'm guessing.

Can I ask if you've done a Self Cal on all 3 instruments ?

Can you also check some DC measurement values ?
You can use the SDG to supply them. We'd be looking for similar inaccuracies and you can go back to 1 M ohm settings.

Yes, all self calibrated and the SDG p-p voltage was 5V. Using DC I get good measurements from both the SDS1104X-E and the MSO5074.

I think that what 2N3055 said applies perfectly. The Siglent has a much flatter response in its bandwidth, but also falls down much faster, I'm unable to "measure" anything over 400Mhz on it, with the Rigol I'm able to "measure" up to 1Ghz, although, of course, this depends heavily on the sampling rate.
Nor should you, it's just a 100/200 MHz 1 GSa/s DSO.
Best sampling rate available is just 1 GSa/s whereas how many times that is the sampling rate for the Rigol ?
No surprises there as the HW won't permit it. LOL.  :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mroek on March 11, 2019, 10:12:04 am
Yes, all self calibrated and the SDG p-p voltage was 5V. Using DC I get good measurements from both the SDS1104X-E and the MSO5074.

I think that what 2N3055 said applies perfectly. The Siglent has a much flatter response in its bandwidth, but also falls down much faster, I'm unable to "measure" anything over 400Mhz on it, with the Rigol I'm able to "measure" up to 1Ghz, although, of course, this depends heavily on the sampling rate.
Nor should you, it's just a 100/200 MHz 1 GSa/s DSO.
Best sampling rate available is just 1 GSa/s whereas how many times that is the sampling rate for the Rigol ?
No surprises there as the HW won't permit it. LOL.  :)

But still, as long as the input signal is below Nyquist and has sufficient amplitude, you are able to detect the presence of the signal, and also approximate the frequency. I actually did this yesterday, when I wanted to know if a car key was actually transmitting a signal. The key uses a 433 MHz carrier, and I simply looped the ground clip to the probe tip, and held the key inside the loop and pressed the button. I could clearly see that the key was transmitting, and I could also "measure" the frequency, either with cursors or the FFT function. This will of course just give me a ballpark measurement, but I still found it interesting. And the purpose in this case was just to detect if the key worked or not, and for that the scope did the job ("unlocked" SDS1104X-E) perfectly.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 11, 2019, 04:12:15 pm
I think that what 2N3055 said applies perfectly. The Siglent has a much flatter response in its bandwidth, but also falls down much faster, I'm unable to "measure" anything over 400Mhz on it, with the Rigol I'm able to "measure" up to 1Ghz, although, of course, this depends heavily on the sampling rate.

Nor should you, it's just a 100/200 MHz 1 GSa/s DSO.
Best sampling rate available is just 1 GSa/s whereas how many times that is the sampling rate for the Rigol ?
No surprises there as the HW won't permit it. LOL.  :)

But still, as long as the input signal is below Nyquist and has sufficient amplitude, you are able to detect the presence of the signal, and also approximate the frequency.

The signal does not even need to be below the Nyquist frequency but it does need to have sufficient amplitude to make up for the loss from frequency response.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on March 12, 2019, 12:05:06 am
Can anyone comment if their screen is shimmering/flickering at all? In some places its barely noticeable, I can see it most in the pop up box X symbol, and the dotted lines in the background. Worse is zooming way out in x axis, after connecting to test signal to get a big band of yellow on the screen, and drop the intensity down a bit. I'll try to capture on video.

There are some things I miss from the DS2072, some make sense due to extra channels:
- Record and fwd/rewind knob. Super useful the odd time you use it, but honestly only used a few times.
- Left side screen buttons for measurements.
- Responsiveness is no better, sometimes worse

Photo attached of the plugs they put on 2ch model.

edit: here is a video, the camera only shows about 20% of the flicker (sound a bit loud)
https://vimeo.com/322986155
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mroek on March 12, 2019, 12:09:15 am
But still, as long as the input signal is below Nyquist and has sufficient amplitude, you are able to detect the presence of the signal, and also approximate the frequency.

The signal does not even need to be below the Nyquist frequency but it does need to have sufficient amplitude to make up for the loss from frequency response.

True, as long as you don't care about detecting/measuring the frequency of the signal. If you also want to be able to at least estimate the frequency, you need to stay below Nyquist (as I also stated).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 12, 2019, 02:35:02 am
But still, as long as the input signal is below Nyquist and has sufficient amplitude, you are able to detect the presence of the signal, and also approximate the frequency.

The signal does not even need to be below the Nyquist frequency but it does need to have sufficient amplitude to make up for the loss from frequency response.

True, as long as you don't care about detecting/measuring the frequency of the signal. If you also want to be able to at least estimate the frequency, you need to stay below Nyquist (as I also stated).

Even then, if you know which aliased image it is you can convert the time/div to the aliased time/div and make time measurements which are just as accurate.  Usually it is the first aliased image simply because any of the higher ones will be too far down the frequency response curve.

The above does not work very well with analog triggering because the trigger becomes essentially random if it works at all but with digital triggering, it should work fine because the digital trigger sees the aliased waveform and not the original one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 12, 2019, 06:21:51 pm
Hi,


Can anyone try the same setup and verify?
EDIT: changed 1KHz to 10KHz in my post.  Thanks Martin72

The 10KHz was used by the keysight, by the rigol it was 1khz.(saw it today)

I did measures with both frequencies, but they look the same so I post only the 1K pics.

Normal Mode :

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190312/temp/5phmyxzd.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5389/5phmyxzd_png.htm)

Average Mode (2times) :

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190312/temp/fbf46h7k.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5389/fbf46h7k_png.htm)

"Hires" (  ;) ) Mode:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190312/temp/6gtzhzj3.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5389/6gtzhzj3_png.htm)


Setup was 1:10 probe on rigol awg, sinewave 1(10)Khz, amplitude 600mV p-p

Quote
Can anyone comment if their screen is shimmering/flickering at all?

Will do it tomorrow.

Together with testing my new toy:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190312/temp/6q4md3yo.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5389/6q4md3yo_jpg.htm)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: el_man on March 13, 2019, 09:45:50 am

Photo attached of the plugs they put on 2ch model.


Interesting - are they somehow permanently attached or a just a caps ? 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on March 13, 2019, 10:28:56 am

Photo attached of the plugs they put on 2ch model.


Interesting - are they somehow permanently attached or a just a caps ?
They must be caps because the scope can be software upgraded to 4 channels
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: NED88 on March 13, 2019, 04:35:20 pm
Hi all.

I posted a question to the other Rigol MSO5000-related thread (see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2264904/#msg2264904 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2264904/#msg2264904)) but wasn't sure if it was the right thread, so I'm re-posting it here if ok with you... :)

So, I decided to use the Measure menu to add Frequency, Period, Undershoot and Overshoot measurements in order to calibrate the four passive probes supplied with my MSO5104. 

I managed to get both the Under/Overshoot down to ~0.6060% for channels 1, 2 and 4 using the 1KHz square wave (from the probe compensation terminal) and those three channels now show a good flat square wave.  However, channel 3 is showing a bit of overshoot (0.6711%) that I can't get rid of - is this normal and/or is it possible to rectify it??  Also, I am not sure if it's a software or hardware problem either.

I have attached, below, a screenshot of the measurements and I did run the SelfCal function beforehand.

I'd appreciate any advice that you can give.  :)

Thanks.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mabl on March 13, 2019, 06:01:02 pm
(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190312/temp/6gtzhzj3.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5389/6gtzhzj3_png.htm)

HiRes renders far better for me in dot render mode, than in vector mode. Give it a try.  8)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 13, 2019, 06:06:50 pm

Quote
Can anyone comment if their screen is shimmering/flickering at all?

Will do it tomorrow.

Done:

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190313/temp/urd3qk5s.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5390/urd3qk5s_jpg.htm)

(sinewave)

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190313/temp/hj9wnbd3.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5390/hj9wnbd3_jpg.htm)

(squarewave)

No issues at all....

Quote
HiRes renders far better for me in dot render mode, then in vector mode. Give it a try.

Ok, maybe I can get the same measure object as used a few weeks ago:

Hi-Res Mode rigol:

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190301/temp/3bi28xx5.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5378/3bi28xx5_jpg.htm)



Normal Mode siglent:

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190301/temp/nuvvxvak.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5378/nuvvxvak_jpg.htm)


Hi-Res Mode (+3bits) :

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190301/temp/nmggmo2j.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5378/nmggmo2j_jpg.htm)

I don´t think it will look like this in dot mode, but I´ll try it out.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on March 13, 2019, 06:21:35 pm
Interesting - are they somehow permanently attached or a just a caps ?

Just BNC caps with nothing inside. Would have been too nice if they were 50 ohm terminators.

I managed to get both the Under/Overshoot down to ~0.6060% for channels 1, 2 and 4 using the 1KHz square wave (from the probe compensation terminal) and those three channels now show a good flat square wave.  However, channel 3 is showing a bit of overshoot (0.6711%) that I can't get rid of - is this normal and/or is it possible to rectify it??  Also, I am not sure if it's a software or hardware problem either.

In the other thread they said Rigol is working on a software fix.
With a generic cheap probe I'm getting the same 0.6% overshoot, and with rigols own probe its a bit worse at 1.2% (maybe due to 350MHz vs 100MHz probe).

Done:

Thank you, looks like this screen is bad or some connection inside. Will see how electrometers deals with returns.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on March 13, 2019, 09:20:31 pm
Is anyone testing serial decoding on the MSO5074?  So far, it is a piece of crap, it is soooo slow and it cannot trigger in normal mode, when in Auto mode I can see the signals being decoded on the Event table... I plug in my EDUX1002G and I can be decoding in less than 1 minute, with the Rigol, It takes forever to get the right parameters, and when you start seeing some data, it is so slow that it is kind of useless... and you need to navigate infinite levels of menus and you see repeated parameters all over the menus  :-- :-- :-- :-- and in SPI they name the signals SCL and SDA  |O |O |O

UI is also very slow and unresponsive, display is very dim unless you are in a basement with no exterior light and most of the lights off...

It is my third attempt with Rigol (MSO2K, DSO1054Z and MSO5074) but I think it is going back and I will take my chances with the new 4-channel Keysight...

I should have listened to Dave when He said this is another Rigol piece of crap
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 13, 2019, 10:01:24 pm
Oh, did he said it ?

SPI decoding here was no problem, it´s definitely hardware-based and seems not too slow for me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on March 13, 2019, 10:06:23 pm
and in SPI they name the signals SCL and SDA  |O |O |O

For me its showing MOSI and MISO, as expected. Are you on the latest software version?

Quote
UI is also very slow and unresponsive, display is very dim unless you are in a basement with no exterior light and most of the lights off...

Brightness is OK for me and I'm in a well lit room with windows. But I am used to black screens, and I agree some sort of brightness control option would be highly appreciated.

I'm surprised you didn't care for 2k or DSO1054Z, they were by far the best value/$ at the time. Of course I would never use them for serial decoding, prefer a dedicated USB analyzer.
Anyway, I would encourage you to return the scope and give them the reasons provided here.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Shodge on March 13, 2019, 10:25:50 pm
Latest firmware... (04.04)

Tested RS-232.  Easy to find baud, polarity, bits, stop...  Manual trigger (edge) - worked great.  Copied decoder into trigger, set up for hex = 0x41.  Worked great.  It would be useful to have a ASCII method...

Table view - same results.

It was definitely not slow.  You do have to navigate several menus - but I don't see a better way, unless you go the keyboard mouse method - which I do not want for a scope...

-Stan
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on March 13, 2019, 10:55:11 pm
Sorry for the previous rant... it was giving me a terrible headache trying to get anything meaningful from this scope...

SPI triggering menu showing SCL / SDA

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=676173;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on March 13, 2019, 11:20:46 pm
Oh, did he said it ?
Here: https://youtu.be/UDGsZcAWgL8 (https://youtu.be/UDGsZcAWgL8)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on March 13, 2019, 11:23:30 pm
Now my MSO5074 got offended because of my post... it hung on me!!! it is completely frozen... time to reboot. :palm:

EDIT: After reboot, still scope is almost 99% unresponsive... it reacts to buttons after 30-60 seconds.  It is set to trigger on SPI timeout 34uS, single trigger, with Event Table open.  It was working fine until today (for 1 week).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on March 13, 2019, 11:26:15 pm
Sorry for the previous rant... it was giving me a terrible headache trying to get anything meaningful from this scope...

SPI triggering menu showing SCL / SDA

You are right, submitted menu typo to Rigol.
edit: Same typo is also seen in the Search -> SPI -> Threshold menu
edit: Rigol noted bug is recorded
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on March 14, 2019, 07:06:40 pm
Another big issue is that the BACK key does not go back on the menu hierarchy navigation, it goes back on the menu navigation steps you took.  I cannot reproduce it, but in one case I ended up in a menu option where the settings were changed and I was shown a previous setting

And it also bothers me a lot that the menu options on the display are not aligned to the right navigation buttons.  Maybe it is time to create a new thread of all the problems with this scope...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=677079;image)

One last rant... you need to press the multi-purpose knob all the time, and it is prone to moving and selecting an adjacent option instead of the one you need... you can scroll and it should set the last option where you stopped when scrolling, without needing to press the knob.

One last last rant... when you press the option key, you are presented to the touch keypad... if you want to use the multi-purpose knob, you need to press the option key again to make the touch keypad go away... then you need to scroll and there is no accelerated function, it just scrolls slowly through all the values... you are not presented by default with the typical values, like the UART baud options, etc

And so on and on and on...

The firmware needs to be completely rewritten...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 14, 2019, 08:39:34 pm
Hi,

Quote
Another big issue is that the BACK key does not go back on the menu hierarchy navigation, it goes back on the menu navigation steps you took.

Hm ? One step fore then back to the last with the "back" key….seems normal to me.

Quote
you can scroll and it should set the last option where you stopped when scrolling, without needing to press the knob.

For me, I find this art of confirmation better - I think it´s a personal taste and not a real problem which is needing to be fixed.

Quote
And it also bothers me a lot that the menu options on the display are not aligned to the right navigation buttons.

Personal taste, the second - I´m working with it since more than 4 months and it didn´t disturb me - To be honest, NOW that you show it in the pic, I realize it for the first time. ;)

Quote
The firmware needs to be completely rewritten…

For one or a few more persons who aren´t satisfied with the operation at the scope…I don´t think so - Or it´s completely the opposite and I´m one of the few, who hadn´t a problem with it.
We´ll see.


Quote
Maybe it is time to create a new thread of all the problems with this scope...

There was a thread started for general problems/real bugs :

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-5000-bugs/msg2085496/#msg2085496 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-5000-bugs/msg2085496/#msg2085496)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 14, 2019, 11:09:44 pm
One thing more…..

What we´re talking about..
About a scope for appx 1000 bucks, €, $ .
As I was bothered with some issues about the lecroy WS 3024, lecroy told me, well it is our low-cost model.
Low cost…..over 4K bucks and they told me it´s low cost.
But they´re right.
A really useful current probe even from rigol cost about/over 5000 bucks.
5000.
For an current probe only.

So what can we expect from a scope which costs a fifth of an current probe...

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on March 14, 2019, 11:45:48 pm
This is not a $999 scope... yes, it is $999 for 70MHz and no software options.  If you add all the options, it is a very expensive scope!!!

I have the Keysight EDUX1002G 2.5 channels, and the Micsig 4 channel scope.  Both are very nice and the battery operated Micsig has its own purpose... I was looking for a 4 channel scope that can be a mix of both the EDUX1002G and the Micsig, but the UI responsiveness and the quality of the software is not worth paying $999 for this Rigol... Now that I have experienced it, I wouldn't buy it even for $500, probably the Siglent is better at $500
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 15, 2019, 02:03:26 am
One last rant... you need to press the multi-purpose knob all the time, and it is prone to moving and selecting an adjacent option instead of the one you need... you can scroll and it should set the last option where you stopped when scrolling, without needing to press the knob.

I hate that in modern products.  The designers think they are so clever to include using the encoder as a push-button but completely miss the human factors engineering.  There are several ways to fix it including aligned strong detents, debounce hysteresis (Tektronix did this at least 29 years ago when faced with the same problem), and just using a separate button but they implement none of them.

Rigol of course will never consider it a problem so they are in good company with Apple.  You are pushing the encoder wrong.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mroek on March 15, 2019, 08:53:38 am
I hate that in modern products.  The designers think they are so clever to include using the encoder as a push-button but completely miss the human factors engineering.  There are several ways to fix it including aligned strong detents, debounce hysteresis (Tektronix did this at least 29 years ago when faced with the same problem), and just using a separate button but they implement none of them.

This appears to be a rather common issue these days, and it is a bit of a mystery why they don't fix this with software debouncing (like you said). Strong detents are OK on some of the encoders (like the ones for vertical gain and horizontal sweep speed), but for a universal selector, detents isn't always desirable. Now, debouncing in software is a bit more complicated than for a simple switch, but still shouldn't be very difficult. Since it can't know that the button has been pressed until it actually is, it needs to check if there was any changes to the rotational posision immediately prior to registering the press, and if so, revert to the menu choice that was active some time (say 100 milliseconds) ago. Not very complicated, but it obviously requires some form of timestamping positional changes of the encoder.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on March 15, 2019, 10:34:07 am
As the encoder is also used not only to select an option but also to increase / decrease values, a hard stopping detent or dent can make turning the knob for long time make it hard to use... and also Rigol did not implement a good acceleration algorithm (I don't think there is one), you need to rotate it many times or use the touch keypad but sometime you don't know which value to set unless you navigate through many values.  On the Keysight it is very easy to go from MHz to KHz using the knob, i.e. to select the output frequency of the AWG.  I could not find a fine/coarse option on the Rigol knob.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2019, 12:42:40 pm
Photo attached of the plugs they put on 2ch model.

Nice!

I'm guessing they had a lot of idiots sending 'scopes back because "Two of the channels don't work!", but those are cool.

A full set of them might of them might fetch $10 on eBay.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 15, 2019, 05:10:06 pm
To Keep the hacking thread clean, I´ll carry on here.
Done the "upgrade" Thing, before I took a pic from the 70Mhz BW while the 40ps pulse-gen. was running:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190314/temp/vgkfg26w.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5391/vgkfg26w_png.htm)

(Unfortunately forgotten the 50 \$\Omega\$ Termination)

Now, with 350Mhz BW:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190315/temp/tpwcfd97.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5392/tpwcfd97_png.htm)

Quite "faster", but somewhat of a "glitch" into it.

Compare it with lecroy WS3024, first with 1M too:

(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190315/temp/t77wfi5p.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5392/t77wfi5p_jpg.htm)

Looks "better"...

Now, with a 50 \$\Omega\$ external termination resistor, rigol:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190315/temp/vdrswbv7.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5392/vdrswbv7_png.htm)

No "glitches", really fast (under 1ns) but massive overshoot... :(

Hm, hm....test it with the same resistor on the lecroy:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190315/temp/5pg6rnir.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5392/5pg6rnir_jpg.htm)

Aha, same on the lecroy.. 8)
Now, with it´s own integraded 50 \$\Omega\$ termination:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190315/temp/k5txtryg.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5392/k5txtryg_jpg.htm)

Ahh, perfect.... :D

And external termination as needed by the rigol is just crap.

Ah, some more about the problems, in this case a forgotten thing :
Functiongenerator, decreasing/increasing the amplitude : There´s no choice between Vpp or Vrms, it´s only in V....

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Commodore8888 on March 15, 2019, 05:37:09 pm
So looks like your's still works relatively well then Martin!

Still waiting over here for an overshoot fix on a couple 5ks and 7ks.
Been in contact with Rigol, and AFAIK, they're looking for a way to get the "work lab" ones done remotely if possible.
The paperwork required to ship them out....would be terrifying.
No word yet on just sending personal stuff in, or if the same "remote software" fix would work on the 5k too.

I'm just hoping it's some special key combo or firmware that allows the full cal. Work has a full lab that'd take care of it for us.

Been lucky so far all we've been doing is basic digital, but there's some fairly sensitive analog stuff coming up and I'd rather not be fighting over the single MDO3000 in our smaller group  :box: Getting more scopes otherwise takes aaaaages. 1mo ages? Nah...try 4+...on a good day.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 15, 2019, 05:58:37 pm
Hi,

Quote
So looks like your's still works relatively well then Martin!

Yes, I got none of the mentioned issues so far( flickering screens, trigger problems, issue by using the averaging mode, non compensable overshoots…).
But the fact that I would have only luck by getting a fine working model... :P

Martin
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: NoisyBoy on March 15, 2019, 06:10:34 pm
True about the alignment.  But it is also a compromise to ensure the buttons on the screen are taller for people who likes to use touch. 

Not that they are right in doing this, just a design factor which might cause the misalignment you mentioned.


Another big issue is that the BACK key does not go back on the menu hierarchy navigation, it goes back on the menu navigation steps you took.  I cannot reproduce it, but in one case I ended up in a menu option where the settings were changed and I was shown a previous setting

And it also bothers me a lot that the menu options on the display are not aligned to the right navigation buttons.  Maybe it is time to create a new thread of all the problems with this scope...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=677079;image)

One last rant... you need to press the multi-purpose knob all the time, and it is prone to moving and selecting an adjacent option instead of the one you need... you can scroll and it should set the last option where you stopped when scrolling, without needing to press the knob.

One last last rant... when you press the option key, you are presented to the touch keypad... if you want to use the multi-purpose knob, you need to press the option key again to make the touch keypad go away... then you need to scroll and there is no accelerated function, it just scrolls slowly through all the values... you are not presented by default with the typical values, like the UART baud options, etc

And so on and on and on...

The firmware needs to be completely rewritten...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: KC0PPH on March 15, 2019, 09:57:25 pm
Just curious if those of you who have this would think its still a good buy with the firmware bugs? Are we fairly confident that they will be worked out, or will Rigol ignore these issue?

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 15, 2019, 10:13:16 pm
Hi,

For me I do - I spend 1069€ for it and it is nothing in sight which can beat it at this price.
And Bugs:
There are some annoying things which could be easily wiped out per firmware updates - Annoying, but not unable to work with this scope yet.
I do have mine on work, use it daily - there was until now nothing which let me take over to another one, except tests which requires official calibrated scopes.
Therefore, for me it´s still a great deal, with the hack for the full options even more.
As I was for weeks in nearly daily touch with the rigol support, I got the impression they take the complaints serious.
They also know this thread here.
Unfortunately, it´s a common method to transform the customers to beta-testers instead of holding the new product off from the market untill it´s nearly flawless.
And so do Rigol too.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2019, 10:28:07 pm
firmware bugs? Are we fairly confident that they will be worked out

Yes.

We don't know exact timeframes though.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on March 17, 2019, 12:51:23 am
More BUGS... now with i2c... |O |O |O |O |O |O |O |O |O

It triggers better than SPI, but cannot decode address and data 90% of the time.

Attached 2 photos, same signal, different decoded information.  I get consistent decoding on Keysight 1000X...

Am I missing something?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=678873;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=678879;image)

EDIT: The threshold on the decoder was set to 0V.  Changed to 1.6V and it is decoding fine now

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on March 17, 2019, 01:03:29 am
How are thresholds set for decodes?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on March 17, 2019, 01:14:39 am
How are thresholds set for decodes?
I had them set at 1.6V but somehow they got reset to 0V.  Now it is decoding correctly.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: luma on March 19, 2019, 12:30:19 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/nB1zvZx.gif)

I've been monkeying around with XY mode and I have to say I'm not super stoked.  A lot of the options that the DS1054Z had are missing.  For quite a while the 1054 only had split screen mode (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-x-y-mode-display-only-on-half-the-screen/), with no option to go full screen (added in a later firmware update).  The MSO5000 is the opposite - there's no option for split screen which was handy.  I also don't appear to be able to adjust trigger options while in XY.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 19, 2019, 08:42:00 pm
Hi,

"New" user guide(02/2019 instead 10/2018) is avaible…



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: el_man on March 19, 2019, 10:22:41 pm
Hi,

"New" user guide(02/2019 instead 10/2018) is avaible…

Yes, I've download it few days ago... but it is the same as previous one - except few words about HiRes mode and a picture of the LA probes and that's all. There isn't a word about the new Eye and Jitter analyzes ....
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: oliv3r on March 20, 2019, 07:28:40 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/nB1zvZx.gif)

I've been monkeying around with XY mode and I have to say I'm not super stoked.  A lot of the options that the DS1054Z had are missing.  For quite a while the 1054 only had split screen mode (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-x-y-mode-display-only-on-half-the-screen/), with no option to go full screen (added in a later firmware update).  The MSO5000 is the opposite - there's no option for split screen which was handy.  I also don't appear to be able to adjust trigger options while in XY.
When you say 'split-screen' mode, what do you mean? The 'zoom' button does some split-screening?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: luma on March 20, 2019, 08:38:31 pm
When you say 'split-screen' mode, what do you mean? The 'zoom' button does some split-screening?

It sure does, but not in XY mode that I can figure out.  See OP here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-x-y-mode-display-only-on-half-the-screen/) for an example of how this worked on the DS1054Z.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 20, 2019, 08:57:17 pm
Apropos split-screen, this would be a feature which I want to have it on the rigol in every case.
On older LeCroy waverunner models, you can choose between single-grid, dual-grid, quad-grid mode and this is sometimes very useful.
Splitable screen and the possibility of "hiding" channels, that would be great to have.
But first of all I want to have a "real" Hi-Res Mode.... 8)
If you read the description about in the "new" manual and then have a look what´s real going on with it...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: hhappy1 on March 23, 2019, 11:14:40 pm
hi!~ Guy's


I don't English well. But I'm curious.

Who can show me a 1khz sine wave,  fft screen? (mso5000)

fft screen : start-0hz, center-5khz, end-10khz


Because distortion changes every time moving vertical offset.
Keysight and siglent is changes.   Tek and R&S is perfect.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: luma on March 25, 2019, 06:14:25 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/hJoZHtQ.png)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: hhappy1 on March 26, 2019, 12:06:18 am
Thanks sir.

One more?  Please.

rbw : 10hz
vertical : decibels
window : hanning
scale : 10db

Sweet day.~
 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: luma on March 26, 2019, 12:49:05 am
(https://i.imgur.com/dJTvwrF.png)

edit: a static screenshot doesn't really illustrate how godawful slow the FFT mode is on this.  Here's what it looks like in real time:
(https://i.imgur.com/QmBVcmn.gif)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on March 26, 2019, 12:33:47 pm
So you have 10 MS/sec and 10 Hz resolution bandwidth...

What do you think how fast screen should refresh on this FFT ?

In order to have 10 Hz RBW  on 10 MS/s you need to have 1Mpoints FFT. So this is FFT on 1 Mpoint.
And also, in order to get 1 Mpoint at 10 MS/sec , you need 0.1 sec to acquire data for single FFT.

So if FFT took no time to calculate at all, at those setting you would have maximum 10 refreshes per second.

And 1 Mpoint FFT will take a bit of time.
So few times per second is realistic... Even once per second is definitely not slow for a 1 Mpoint FFT at that sampling speed....

As it was mentioned many times before, measurement instruments don't measure anything. Operator does, using instruments.
Know the theory, know how instrument operates and work within it's operating principles and hardware limits.

Regards,
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: rsjsouza on March 26, 2019, 01:36:44 pm
As it was mentioned many times before, measurement instruments don't measure anything. Operator does, using instruments.
Know the theory, know how instrument operates and work within it's operating principles and hardware limits.
Sinisa, I haven't heard that one. I absolutely love it!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on March 26, 2019, 02:22:35 pm
More worrying signs about Rigol...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-customer-service-appaling/msg2297541/#msg2297541 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-customer-service-appaling/msg2297541/#msg2297541)

Does anyone know if Rigol ownership changed recently?  I noticed in the back of the scope it does not say Rigol Technologies, it says Rigol (some chinese name I don't recall because my scope was returned) Technologies.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: luma on March 26, 2019, 02:38:54 pm
So you have 10 MS/sec and 10 Hz resolution bandwidth...

What do you think how fast screen should refresh on this FFT ?

In order to have 10 Hz RBW  on 10 MS/s you need to have 1Mpoints FFT. So this is FFT on 1 Mpoint.
And also, in order to get 1 Mpoint at 10 MS/sec , you need 0.1 sec to acquire data for single FFT.

So if FFT took no time to calculate at all, at those setting you would have maximum 10 refreshes per second.

And 1 Mpoint FFT will take a bit of time.
So few times per second is realistic... Even once per second is definitely not slow for a 1 Mpoint FFT at that sampling speed....

As it was mentioned many times before, measurement instruments don't measure anything. Operator does, using instruments.
Know the theory, know how instrument operates and work within it's operating principles and hardware limits.

Regards,

Yeah I'm comparing against dedicated analyzers which is probably not a fair basis of comparison.  Your point is well taken.  Overall I'm pretty stoked about the capabilities of this device, and for the price it's a great solution for my own needs.

edit: To better illustrate the point, as a dumb operator I was doing a dumb thing which was impacting the measurement on the instrument - the RG316 cable was crossed over itself as it sat on the bench.  Simply repositioning the cable on my bench has removed some of the spurs shown in the previous capture.  Here's how it looks now.  Idiot operator == idiot results! :D

(https://i.imgur.com/ozH3vyg.gif)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on March 26, 2019, 02:52:38 pm
Yeah I'm comparing against dedicated analyzers which is probably not a fair basis of comparison.  Your point is well taken.  Overall I'm pretty stoked about the capabilities of this device, and for the price it's a great solution for my own needs.

Dedicated spectrum analyzers use overlapped FFT, so they can provide continuous running FFT update after initial block is loaded..
No scope does that AFAIK.. If some does it would be good to know..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nerdineer on March 26, 2019, 09:57:10 pm
Does anyone know of a quicker way to remotely read large waveform raw data from the scope? Right now I have managed to use USBTMC to grab the data but its painfully slow (minutes). This is with raw samples (e.g. bytes, not ASCII).
I'm assuming the protocol adds a lot of weight...

Saving binary files to memory (e.g. a memory stick or the internal memory) is much faster. However then you need to manually remove the USB stick from the scope and plug it into the PC. All possible but annoying and I dont want to wear out the one USB port.

I'm wondering (perhaps with the hacked firmware) if it would be possible to secure FTP into the scope and simply browse and download the scope captured over Ethernet? Or if there are any other ideas or solutions?



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Commodore8888 on March 30, 2019, 09:09:48 pm
For those with the sketchy overshoots from the wonky low freq cal on some MSO5000s and DS/MSO7000s, I've been in touch with Rigol USA over the last month.

As noted by Martin earlier when he contacted Rigol UK, Rigol as a whole appears to know there's an issue. I've been informed there's a fix coming in the form of a new firmware rev.
When, I'm not sure, but hopefully I have more info next week from Rigol USA. It's good to hear considering the group I work with has some analog work rolling up (and it'd be nice not fighting for the sole Tek MDO 3k  :box:), as well, some companies/groups make sending things out for RMA a completely asinine process...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 30, 2019, 09:54:02 pm
Yes, rigol took everything in this case seriously.
For example, they know and work around about the weak display brightness (although, of course, they couldn´t change the angle view via software).
I wrote to them, different math trace colours were a good and useful thing to have, they answered you´re right, we tell it to the R&D Department and so on.
Or bode plot function ( will come).
Or my problems with getting a pwm signal displaying stable….
They asked me about the nature of the signal, after a few days they told me to set the holdoff time for triggering to ms instead of ns...and it works.
Really good support.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 30, 2019, 10:17:18 pm
It's good to hear they're responding to the reports. So, this may be like the DS1054Z where they will be fixing issues as they're found and reported. The 1kZ took a while to get sorted, but they took care of it (even "pluses" eventually got corrected :horse:).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Commodore8888 on March 30, 2019, 11:19:12 pm
Yes, rigol took everything in this case seriously.
For example, they know and work around about the weak display brightness (although, of course, they couldn´t change the angle view via software).
I wrote to them, different math trace colours were a good and useful thing to have, they answered you´re right, we tell it to the R&D Department and so on.
Or bode plot function ( will come).
Or my problems with getting a pwm signal displaying stable….
They asked me about the nature of the signal, after a few days they told me to set the holdoff time for triggering to ms instead of ns...and it works.
Really good support.

Good to know their R/D takes this stuff seriously. Seeing as this chipset is now in multiple scopes, and they're trying to be big players now with ASICs seems like, time to step up the support effort. Especially if new features are just some simple software tweaks. Quality of life stuff.

Screen brightness? In what way, is there a regulator running the backlight in there somewhere?? :popcorn: Or is it just a software image brightness deal. Still would be nice if they do something to bump it a tad. It's not bad in an office environment though. Side by side with our 7000s it IS a little dimmer.

Here's hoping the overshoot/bad cal thing gets sorted soon-ish though. It sort of crosses off our new scopes for serious analog work :(
Difference between new features vs. "cannot be used" :(

Auto bode function seems neat. This using the internal AWG with an internal trigger like how you might with a stand alone AWG, wide time base, and trig out?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on March 30, 2019, 11:47:46 pm
................
Or my problems with getting a pwm signal displaying stable….
They asked me about the nature of the signal, after a few days they told me to set the holdoff time for triggering to ms instead of ns...and it works.
Yes of course.
User error and nothing to do with the scope at all.

All DSO's can struggle with obtaining a stable triggering with PWM unless Trigger Holdoff time is adjusted to greater than the max pulse width.
These Holdoff triggering issues also arise in some decoding work too where sometimes Holdoff needs be longer than an entire packet.
Pretty basic stuff.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on March 31, 2019, 08:54:10 am
Yeah, but if you hadn´t the need to adjust the trigger in this way before, you think it´s a bug.
On LeCroy and Siglent models, you don´t have to adjust the trigger timeout - and we got LeCroy only and since a couple of time a Siglent.
So I was surprised using the 5000 for the first time and measure a pwm signal.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on March 31, 2019, 09:57:21 am
Yeah, but if you hadn´t the need to adjust the trigger in this way before, you think it´s a bug.
On LeCroy and Siglent models, you don´t have to adjust the trigger timeout - and we got LeCroy only and since a couple of time a Siglent.
So I was surprised using the 5000 for the first time and measure a pwm signal.
That is because of very fast wfm/sec rate (short blind time) on new Rigols. After getting Keysight 3000T  I also had to start adding holdoff where I didn't have to use it before...
Slower scopes have "built in holdoff"   ^-^
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: hhappy1 on March 31, 2019, 11:30:15 am
Thanks sir.!!

One more question.

Why it is different THD. Moving the vertical offset.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uJyffuycF8e_rt2JvaoOCzDjRx_0lUL4 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uJyffuycF8e_rt2JvaoOCzDjRx_0lUL4)

This is 1Khz Sine wave and 2nd , 3nd, more distortion.

Tek & R&S is Not different.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: luma on March 31, 2019, 02:01:48 pm
Or bode plot function ( will come).

Wait, are you saying Rigol has directly stated that bode plot is coming?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 31, 2019, 04:24:05 pm
Why it is different THD. Moving the vertical offset.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uJyffuycF8e_rt2JvaoOCzDjRx_0lUL4 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uJyffuycF8e_rt2JvaoOCzDjRx_0lUL4)

This is 1Khz Sine wave and 2nd , 3nd, more distortion.

Tek & R&S is Not different.

Other automatic measurements also change when the vertical position is adjusted.  I think this is because the Rigol makes measurements on the display record instead of the processing record.  The same thing also explains why automatic RMS measurements are not accurate for noisy waveforms.

In the general case, there are three different waveform records but in some cases they are combined to save money or increase performance:

The acquisition record is what is actually produced by the digitizer and is often limited to the digitizer resolution like on the Rigol where high resolution mode produces an 8-bit result.  On older DSOs, it may be limited to the length of a dedicated bank of fast memory but modern DSOs tend to capture the acquisition record directly into the processing memory.  Early DPO style DSOs captured directly into display memory but I think they do it a different way now. (1)

The processing record is what the processor works with and is often the 8-bit acquisition record promoted to 16-bits like on older Tektronix DSOs.

The display record is what actually gets displayed and may or may not be stored in the processing memory.

(1) I think modern DPO designs capture a histogram into acquisition memory and then the processor transfers this to the display memory which is how I would do it now.  Peak detection is a very limited early example of this.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on March 31, 2019, 04:44:55 pm
I think this is because the Rigol makes measurements on the display record instead of the processing record.

It doesn't..New ones don't.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 31, 2019, 04:58:38 pm
I think this is because the Rigol makes measurements on the display record instead of the processing record.

It doesn't..New ones don't.

Then that is an even more peculiar behavior.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Bud on March 31, 2019, 05:12:01 pm
Thanks sir.!!

One more question.

Why it is different THD. Moving the vertical offset.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uJyffuycF8e_rt2JvaoOCzDjRx_0lUL4 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uJyffuycF8e_rt2JvaoOCzDjRx_0lUL4)

This is 1Khz Sine wave and 2nd , 3nd, more distortion.

Tek & R&S is Not different.
Vertical offset is DC voltage that is mixed with the signal BEFORE the ADC digitizes it. The digital waveform produced by the ADC will include the effect of the DC offset on the pre-ADC circuit (distortion).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 01, 2019, 12:34:38 am
Or bode plot function ( will come).

Wait, are you saying Rigol has directly stated that bode plot is coming?

Apparently so. See the dedicated topic:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-oscilloscopes-with(out)-bode-plot-feature/msg2308233/#msg2308233 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-oscilloscopes-with(out)-bode-plot-feature/msg2308233/#msg2308233)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on April 06, 2019, 07:57:07 pm
Does anybody know which 9" Display are used on the rigol, name, model ?
Dave did it a fully teardown but I´m sure he wouldn´t notice it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mabl on April 08, 2019, 08:47:42 am
Ok guys,

so I've been wondering on why you think that HIRES does not work on the DS5000. To my understanding, HIRES will runn a box car averaging filter over the samples, potentially resulting in more resolution if the noise is gaussian.

On the display side, multiple acquired wave forms overlay and result in a gradient display. If the waveform differs from shot to shot, the trace will look wider, even if the ADC had perfect resoultion.

The new Rigols are special in a sense, that they have very high update rates, even in HIRES mode. So what I would expect is:
So what I just did is looking at a 15MHz "square" wave from the wave form generator and going through these options, see attached images. I do believe to see a vast improvement of the waveform. The grading is "better" in case of dot display mode (instead of vector), and if I reduce the wave form rate, things narrow down and get clearer.

Is this not what one would expect from the HIRES mode? Once we account for the high frame rate and the easy saturation of the gradient display.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on April 08, 2019, 09:04:19 am
To take update rate out of equation, one should try single capture without and with HIRES.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mabl on April 08, 2019, 09:19:32 am
To take update rate out of equation, one should try single capture without and with HIRES.

Fair enough. But I wanted to point out the effect of the high update rate and the difference between dot and vector display.

I have added single shot measurements to this post as well. Due to the high ADC sample rate, it would definitely be useful to change the box size. But in general, my laymen's sense is that the HIRES mode does work but the results look bad in case of graded display and vector display mode.   
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on April 08, 2019, 10:08:22 am
Problem is with the fact that it is not specified how HIRES is done and that you have no control over how many averages (how many bits) HIRES is doing. They might be doing it with filter of length 2 which would only give 0,5 bit enhancement which would pretty much be not visible.
It should be made like averaging so you can set how many bits of enhancement you want and it should correspondingly show effective sampling rate AND effective bandwidth with that filter setting..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on April 08, 2019, 05:27:30 pm
Yeah, like the filtering in 0.5 bit steps by lecroy or siglent.

Quote
They might be doing it with filter of length 2 which would only give 0,5 bit enhancement which would pretty much be not visible.

Exactly, see also:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2266332/#msg2266332 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2266332/#msg2266332)

And:

Quote
The hi-res mode is active on the 5000, but somehow too "weak".

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2233980/#msg2233980 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2233980/#msg2233980)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: MegaVolt on April 16, 2019, 11:42:18 am
Maybe someone knows?

1. Can the generator produce PWM signals? Or PFM or some other modulation for a square wave?

2. Is there any possibility to use external synchronization? I know that there is no separate entrance for this. But how can it be possible to use one of 4 inputs for this?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: MegaVolt on April 16, 2019, 09:12:13 pm
Digitized generator output good instrument. And I found small spikes on any generated signal. Perfectly visible on rectangular pulses. The frequency is somewhere 20 Hz. The amplitude is 0.15 mV.

This is all?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: jemangedeslolos on April 20, 2019, 05:08:35 pm
Hello,
I will order a MSO5074 next week and I know that the fan is noisy.
Has anyone ever tried to replace it ?
Do you know what type of connector Rigol uses on this model ?

Thank you  :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on April 20, 2019, 06:08:01 pm
Hi,

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg1952305/#msg1952305 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg1952305/#msg1952305)

at 9min50s you could have a closer look to the fan.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on April 21, 2019, 08:04:01 pm
If I wouldn´t be afraid of loosing warranty, I would build in this fan:

https://www.reichelt.de/noctua-nf-a8-pwm-gehaeuseluefter-80-mm-no-nf-a8-pwm-p179663.html?&trstct=pol_0 (https://www.reichelt.de/noctua-nf-a8-pwm-gehaeuseluefter-80-mm-no-nf-a8-pwm-p179663.html?&trstct=pol_0)

Hmm...should ask them (rigol).

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: KC0PPH on April 21, 2019, 11:30:53 pm
Are there any review videos or articles on this yet? All I see is Daves stuff and some things from Rigol/Saileg.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on April 22, 2019, 12:46:59 pm
Quote
All I see is Daves stuff

And no full review... :(
Rigol 5000/7000, Siglent 5000......no full Reviews from Dave.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: wsettle on April 22, 2019, 07:24:07 pm
Does anyone know if the MSO5000 will fit the Rigol BAG-DS1000 bag?  Tequipment's dimensions do not distinguish between inside and outside measurements.  It is reasonably priced at $58 vs other, similar bags at $140 and up.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Coder69 on April 22, 2019, 07:33:39 pm
Hi,

I will order a MSO5074 next week and I know that the fan is noisy.
Has anyone ever tried to replace it ?
Do you know what type of connector Rigol uses on this model ?

In my opinion the MSO5000 is not noisy, at least my model in office. You can't compare it with series DS4000
oscilloscopes or waveform generators DG4000. The fans of these devices are an unbelievable impudence.
The popular series 1000z is little quieter then the series above, but loud enough in my opinion.
The MSO5000 ist not perfect with respect to the fan, but at least Rigol learnded a little bit. During the first hour
I hear sometimes a high tone, but then when the device has reached its working temperature there is only  a
little noise to hear. I guess if Rigol would have invested 3 Dollar more, we needn't to talk about the fan at all.
My recommendation: Buy it and test it for a while and think about replacing the fan if it is really annoying for you.

Coder69
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: jemangedeslolos on April 23, 2019, 08:20:59 pm
Hello,

Thank you for the advice. I ordered the MSO5074 with the front panel cover this morning so I think it will be at home friday or monday.
Im very sensitive to noise, I have mignaine attack very often so all my lab is very quiet.
I asked to Rigol for a fan replacement of my previous ds1000z and ds2000a model but without any success.
The only way was to send my scope to a reseller in Germany and pay 400€ for a silent fan replacement without loosing warranty.
On the other hand, Siglent allowed me to change the fan from my sds2204x that I always have :)

I will try to identify the fan connector if I need to change the MSO5000 fan.
I will let you know :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on April 23, 2019, 08:31:39 pm
Quote
I will try to identify the fan connector if I need to change the MSO5000 fan.

As I wrote before, see Dave´s video.
It´s a 2-pole connector.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: typoknig on April 24, 2019, 01:45:44 am
Is there a menu option to change to square graticules on the MSO5074?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: jemangedeslolos on April 24, 2019, 07:05:48 am
Hello,

I watched almost every video on MSO5000  ;D

But a two pins connector means nothing to me, I would like to buy the right one to install a new fan without damaging the original one and be able to put it back in as original configuration.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on April 24, 2019, 05:42:06 pm
Quote
Is there a menu option to change to square graticules on the MSO5074?

No, but you can change the grid:

Full Grid:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190424/temp/ivm7ips2.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5432/ivm7ips2_png.htm)

Half:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190424/temp/22uouygn.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5432/22uouygn_png.htm)

None:

(https://s16.directupload.net/images/190424/temp/wk7ccbol.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5432/wk7ccbol_png.htm)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Commodore8888 on April 25, 2019, 01:25:50 am
Rigol NA got back to me about the goofy overshoots with some beta firmware that's supposed to fix it! (Temp firmware that's just toying with the fix).

Loaded the 5k now waiting on a self cal before testing. I was informed the new self cal takes care of the front end, and from what I'm watching that's the case. 7k test has to wait until a coworker gets back to me.

Edit: Got a chance to check the 5k. Square waves nice and flat now, with no funky over/undershooting or attenuation at higher f.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on April 25, 2019, 08:27:11 pm
If I wouldn´t be afraid of loosing warranty, I would build in this fan:

https://www.reichelt.de/noctua-nf-a8-pwm-gehaeuseluefter-80-mm-no-nf-a8-pwm-p179663.html?&trstct=pol_0 (https://www.reichelt.de/noctua-nf-a8-pwm-gehaeuseluefter-80-mm-no-nf-a8-pwm-p179663.html?&trstct=pol_0)

Hmm...should ask them (rigol).

Answer, they don´t want it, warranty will be lost if doing it by yourself.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on April 26, 2019, 02:12:37 am
Edit: Got a chance to check the 5k. Square waves nice and flat now, with no funky over/undershooting or attenuation at higher f.

I wonder what was going on that it could be fixed in firmware.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on April 26, 2019, 11:00:11 am
Edit: Got a chance to check the 5k. Square waves nice and flat now, with no funky over/undershooting or attenuation at higher f.

I wonder what was going on that it could be fixed in firmware.
It might have been some bad calibration parameter file, as a user reported not having the issue when using other scope's parameter files.  The unit I tested did not have the problem out of the box, so it might have had the good files.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: typoknig on April 27, 2019, 06:36:57 pm
Has anyone used PC software (Ultrascope or other) with the MSO5074. I'm most interested to know if there is any suitable Linux software that can be used with this scope. I assume the standard SCPI libraries that worked with the DS1054Z still work with the MSO5074.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on April 29, 2019, 07:17:06 pm
Has anyone used PC software (Ultrascope or other) with the MSO5074. I'm most interested to know if there is any suitable Linux software that can be used with this scope. I assume the standard SCPI libraries that worked with the DS1054Z still work with the MSO5074.

Please see the thread here: www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/mso5000-waveform-data-format-problem/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/mso5000-waveform-data-format-problem/)
Ultrascope is windows only, but you could still use the web interface or python as above.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Commodore8888 on April 29, 2019, 09:23:22 pm
Edit: Got a chance to check the 5k. Square waves nice and flat now, with no funky over/undershooting or attenuation at higher f.

I wonder what was going on that it could be fixed in firmware.
It might have been some bad calibration parameter file, as a user reported not having the issue when using other scope's parameter files.  The unit I tested did not have the problem out of the box, so it might have had the good files.

That'd be me. I checked out mabl's cal files to see what the difference was. They cleaned up the signal mostly, but skewed the high frequency response.

From what I can tell, Rigol added entirely new sections to the self cal routine to calibrate the rest of the front end. Not sure if this was simply omitted, or if they had assumed factory cal would be enough. Conjecture there though I'd think.

We just got in a few more MSO7ks today at work, and all showed the same overshoot until we tried the beta firmware + self cal.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: offmar on April 30, 2019, 07:33:17 pm
Edit: Got a chance to check the 5k. Square waves nice and flat now, with no funky over/undershooting or attenuation at higher f.

I wonder what was going on that it could be fixed in firmware.
It might have been some bad calibration parameter file, as a user reported not having the issue when using other scope's parameter files.  The unit I tested did not have the problem out of the box, so it might have had the good files.

That'd be me. I checked out mabl's cal files to see what the difference was. They cleaned up the signal mostly, but skewed the high frequency response.

From what I can tell, Rigol added entirely new sections to the self cal routine to calibrate the rest of the front end. Not sure if this was simply omitted, or if they had assumed factory cal would be enough. Conjecture there though I'd think.

We just got in a few more MSO7ks today at work, and all showed the same overshoot until we tried the beta firmware + self cal.

I wonder if the overshoot fix is the only thing changed in that firmware... Mine now shows version 03.01.01.04.04.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mabl on May 01, 2019, 07:09:17 am
I wonder if the overshoot fix is the only thing changed in that firmware... Mine now shows version 03.01.01.04.04.

Now, If only somebody were to share their beta firmware file for the MSO5000, we would know  >:D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: jemangedeslolos on May 01, 2019, 10:09:41 am
MSO5074 on my desk right now  8)
Very good first impression. The touch screen is very responsive exept when playing with horizontal and vertical settings. It is unusable.
But enter parameters when playing with serial decoding, or setting trigger option for example is very usefull.

This feature will miss on my SDS2204X. I wonder if I will not sell it to go on an other touch screen oscilloscope. ( I need a scope at home and one at work ).

And the fan !! It's really a very good surprise.
It is much much quieter than my previous DS1054Z and my DS2202A.
The noise of the fan is not very pleasant, I have the impression to hear the fans of low-end PC power supply from 10 years ago but the noise level is acceptable.
I will wait some weeks before replacing the fan to be sure that the hardware is OK and destroy my warranty sticker  >:D

I like the layout....exept that the offset and scale settings are reversed compared to my Siglent  |O
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on May 01, 2019, 01:46:50 pm
Noisy fan....
Today I did some measurements, with TrueRTA and UMIK-1, SPL-meter calibrated (94dB).

(https://s18.directupload.net/images/190501/temp/4xpmnyoi.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5439/4xpmnyoi_jpg.htm)

Noiselevel before rigol was turning on:

(https://s18.directupload.net/images/190501/temp/wksn6faw.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5439/wksn6faw_jpg.htm)

After turning on:

(https://s18.directupload.net/images/190501/temp/nekd88hv.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5439/nekd88hv_jpg.htm)

Direct to the housing:

(https://s18.directupload.net/images/190501/temp/tw9xikbf.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5439/tw9xikbf_jpg.htm)

"Only" +5dB (first measure) but I swear, it sounds terrible... 8)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: jemangedeslolos on May 01, 2019, 03:00:00 pm
I don't know if you're ironic or not.

I was just saying in the message above that the fan noise was very acceptable and much quieter than my old Rigol oscilloscopes.
But the noise that generates the fan is not very pleasant as can be a Noctua or a Bequiet thanks to their premium components.

And that is a parameter that TrueRTA can't show.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on May 01, 2019, 04:10:58 pm
Quote
I don't know if you're ironic or not.

No,
It wasn´t meant to you, today I got the time to measure it and I was a little bit surprised of how "less" the result was, although the fan seems to me so annoying loud... :(
Rigol plan something with the fan-"issue", they told me in the answer that warranty will void if you exchange the fan by yourself.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: jemangedeslolos on May 02, 2019, 08:43:19 am
Hello,

Yes I know that. They told me the same thing when I planned to replace the fan on my DS1000Z and DS2000A.
So now, instead of paying the high price for full bw/option like I did before, I will hack the low end model, loose warranty and replace all I want  ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on May 02, 2019, 10:41:38 am
DS1000Z hack can be reversed and no warranty is voided
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: jemangedeslolos on May 02, 2019, 10:48:20 am
Yes but good luck with the fan replacement and the warranty sticker
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on May 02, 2019, 11:09:10 am
You said "hack and loose warranty and replace all I want" which is not true.  You can hack it and not loose warranty, making it less compelling to loose warranty because of a fan replacement.

If you don't care about the warranty, then it is a different story
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: jemangedeslolos on May 02, 2019, 12:32:09 pm
I can't speak for Rigol but, in case of you hack option and/or bandwidth, If you are able to reverse the hack...no problem.
But what if it is not? I mean, If the oscilloscope does not start at all by hardware issue ? Maybe it's not so obvious.

I did not want to risk that on my previous model and pay what I have to pay but know it's a different story.
I didn't like the way they answered to my problem so....
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 02, 2019, 01:25:58 pm
I can't speak for Rigol but, in case of you hack option and/or bandwidth, If you are able to reverse the hack...no problem.
But what if it is not? I mean, If the oscilloscope does not start at all by hardware issue ? Maybe it's not so obvious.

I'm not sure how pressing a sequence of buttons on the front panel validates a hardware warranty.

A warranty which they're required to provide by law in the EU.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: jemangedeslolos on May 02, 2019, 04:24:19 pm
I don't know why you are talking to me about something I don't care.
I will loose warranty because I will open the case to replace the fan.
And you will loose warranty too if you hack bw and or options. It is written in black in white on their warranty terms and conditions.

If you think they are abusive, good luck if you need it  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on May 02, 2019, 07:29:35 pm
Received RMA back from electro-meters. The display was definitely bad on the previous one.
Now there is almost no flicker/shimmer visible anywhere. There is still a tiny bit on the RIGOL logo, but only if you put your eye right up to the display.


I don't know why you are talking to me about something I don't care.
I will loose warranty because I will open the case to replace the fan.
And you will loose warranty too if you hack bw and or options. It is written in black in white on their warranty terms and conditions.

If you think they will spot the broken "warranty" tape and void your warranty, which is not allowed in many countries, then simply use many known methods to remove it without damaging it.

It can be written in black and white, but it does not mean their employees are bound by those terms. Personally I will not refuse warranty unless the customer has physically damaged the product. Or in very rare cases if they say obviously "hacked" the device and specifically due to that "hacking" process, the device was killed.

I'm not sure if they would refuse repair outright, or charge an hourly fee. The terms suggest the first I suppose.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on May 02, 2019, 07:35:46 pm
Quote
And you will loose warranty too if you hack bw and or options.

Fortunately the hack can be "delete" without leaving any traces, the tape could be warmed up for flawless strip off….
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: jemangedeslolos on May 03, 2019, 09:10:56 am
There are lots of things that are written in black in white but are abusive from the law's point of view.
I know that the hack will not use or destroy the hardware....but on paper, it is Rigol policy to void warranty in case of bw / option hack.
I don't know what is Rigol policy in real life but it's not obvious that the warranty works 100%.
If it depends on the goodwill of the maintenance center, it is not warranty, it is luck and there is a risk.

Don't forget that even if the hack is very easy, we have features that we normally have to pay for.
I don't have a scope on my desk to look pretty, so I will not fight with Rigol during 6 month because theirs terms and condition are abusive.
If I absolutely need a 350Mhz MSO with all software option with a warranty and a fast repair time, I have to pay for it and it seems rational to me.
Personally I don't find their terms so abusive, I will find understandable that Rigol refuses warranty while I benefit from services that I did not want to pay for.

I know that the hack can be erased. But only if the product can boot.
If the scope is bricked, I don't know how to clean the scope from the hack.

If one day my scope fails, I will obviously try to operate the device warranty.
But if Rigol refuse because of the hack, I will not cry, I will buy a new one.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 03, 2019, 09:52:28 am
I know that the hack will not use or destroy the hardware....but on paper, it is Rigol policy to void warranty in case of bw / option hack.
I don't know what is Rigol policy in real life but it's not obvious that the warranty works 100%.

Do you have it "on paper"?

Where? I've never seen it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TopLoser on May 03, 2019, 09:55:05 am
I know that the hack will not use or destroy the hardware....but on paper, it is Rigol policy to void warranty in case of bw / option hack.
I don't know what is Rigol policy in real life but it's not obvious that the warranty works 100%.

Do you have it "on paper"?

Where? I've never seen it.

https://www.rigolna.com/warranty/ (https://www.rigolna.com/warranty/)

(6) Unofficial Licenses are Installed
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 03, 2019, 10:01:13 am
For the paranoid: Would it be possible to make a USB hack key that you leave in the rear USB port and automatically hacks the 'scope on power-up, without permanent changes?  :popcorn:

(seems unlikely, but...I'm not an expert here)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: H.O on May 03, 2019, 10:41:49 am
Quote
I know that the hack can be erased. But only if the product can boot.
If the scope is bricked, I don't know how to clean the scope from the hack.

If the scope is bricked and doesn't boot how would they know what licenses (payed for or not) are installed? Will they spend time trying to extract that information from memory of the device prior to fixing the scope or will they just replace the broken PCB and/or reload the software from scratch?

Of course there's always a risk but personally I wouldn't be too worried about it but to each their own.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on May 03, 2019, 11:22:56 am
https://www.rigolna.com/warranty/ (https://www.rigolna.com/warranty/)

[The warranty is void if: ...]
(6) Unofficial Licenses are Installed

Interestingly, removal or cutting of the "warranty seal" sticker is not listed as a reason for losing the warranty. Unauthorized repairs are, and Rigol might argue that an opened sticker does indicate unauthorized repair. But following the letters of their warranty conditions, just having a look inside should be fine!   ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on May 04, 2019, 09:37:19 am
Hi,

After watching the digital filtering clip in  another thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2383815/#msg2383815), I´d played again with the minimum cut-off frequency of the lowpass filter function.

(https://s18.directupload.net/images/190504/temp/ewnddnim.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5442/ewnddnim_png.htm)
1Mhz minimum

(https://s18.directupload.net/images/190504/temp/e8zj93go.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5442/e8zj93go_png.htm)
100khz

(https://s18.directupload.net/images/190504/temp/shainkjq.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5442/shainkjq_png.htm)
10khz

(https://s18.directupload.net/images/190504/temp/znkxaqrd.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5442/znkxaqrd_png.htm)
1khz

So reducing the recordlenght will decrease the minimum cut-off frequency, after playing some more with it, following results at a timebase of 500µs:

Mem-Depth:  Cutoff:


1kpts             1Khz

10kpts          10Khz

100kpts       100Khz

1Mpts            1Mhz

10Mpts          1Mhz

100Mpts        1Mhz

200Mpts        1Mhz

Seems "natural" or is it a bug...because have a look at the above mentioned rigol video at appx 1m22s:
Cut-off frequency is adjustable to 2.5khz - but the memdepth is 2.4Mpoints..... :-//
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: offmar on May 04, 2019, 07:01:15 pm
I wonder if the overshoot fix is the only thing changed in that firmware... Mine now shows version 03.01.01.04.04.

Now, If only somebody were to share their beta firmware file for the MSO5000, we would know  >:D

Sorry, I saw this a bit too late! I noticed in the other thread that you already have it.  :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on May 05, 2019, 02:55:53 pm
From where did he have it....?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: offmar on May 06, 2019, 05:02:03 pm
From where did he have it....?

I'm not sure. If you need it I could upload it somewhere.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on May 06, 2019, 09:01:01 pm
I will think about it.
What the noisy fan concerns, I must perhaps send the scope to rigol - if they find a beta-version on it....
Otherwise the next official firmware-update is planned for june.
Hm-hm....
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on May 06, 2019, 09:03:19 pm
I tried to replicate this but I can't get any math function to show on the screen at all.
Something simple like !A CH1, displays no trace at all (the math is enabled and math offset label is shown on the screen on the left side).


edit: always do a self-cal after upgrading your licenses. Seems there will be bugs if you don't do this (probably from the 2->4 channel upgrade).


I will think about it.
What the noisy fan concerns, I must perhaps send the scope to rigol - if they find a beta-version on it....
Otherwise the next official firmware-update is planned for june.
Hm-hm....

You can downgrade the firmware.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: rowifi on May 10, 2019, 07:40:51 am
I had a loan Rigol 7000 a couple of months ago and it was riddled with bugs, locked up, would sometimes only part reload USB saved waveforms etc. It was junk.
However, I currently have a Rohde Schwarz RTB2004 on loan which is going back because it too has malfunctioning firmware in the History / Segmented memory option and logic capture display.
I'm wondering if there is any scope out there that has large extended memory (24M+), segmented memory that is sufficiently bug free without spending tens of thousands.
The Rigol 5000 is a cost effective option, but not if it is as bad as the 7000 was.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on May 10, 2019, 03:59:58 pm
Hi,
If a defective can be ruled out, it could be fixed via firmware ( as long as rigol/r&s got knowledge about the issues and are wiling/able to fix it ).

By the way,

Seems "natural" or is it a bug...because have a look at the above mentioned rigol video at appx 1m22s:
Cut-off frequency is adjustable to 2.5khz - but the memdepth is 2.4Mpoints..... :-//

Seems to be a bug because today I could play with the DS1054Z and the minimum cut-off frequency remains the same, regardless of the memory-depth, it´s only changing when timebase was changing.

(https://s18.directupload.net/images/190510/temp/cvoqvlqb.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5448/cvoqvlqb_jpg.htm)

(https://s18.directupload.net/images/190510/temp/l84vfme5.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5448/l84vfme5_jpg.htm)


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: timber23 on May 11, 2019, 03:37:19 pm
To Keep the hacking thread clean, I´ll carry on here.
Done the "upgrade" Thing, before I took a pic from the 70Mhz BW while the 40ps pulse-gen. was running:

I repeated the measurement with my scope. Here is the test setup:
(https://i.imgur.com/kUT0gmy.jpg)

Risetime:
(https://i.imgur.com/pxVunaj.png)

Falltime:
(https://i.imgur.com/SJp238K.png)

I think the 750ps rise-/fall-time measured by Martin72 is valid.

Best regards
Timber23
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on May 11, 2019, 11:36:06 pm
This scope is better as someone might think.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 12, 2019, 08:39:46 pm
I think the 750ps rise-/fall-time measured by Martin72 is valid.

That's about 466MHz if my math isn't failing me.

Not a problem if you have 8GHz sample rate available.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on May 20, 2019, 05:45:15 pm
Hi,

Seems to be a bug because today I could play with the DS1054Z and the minimum cut-off frequency remains the same, regardless of the memory-depth, it´s only changing when timebase was changing.

Got the confirmation today, it´s a bug and known.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: luma on May 29, 2019, 11:20:15 pm
Monkeying around w/ a Leo Bodnar pulse generator to check performance.  0.35/0.750ns works out to about 466MHz bandwidth.  Not bad!

(https://i.imgur.com/I3bd7H0.png)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on May 30, 2019, 09:11:28 am
Ah, the second confirmation of my measurement, so it couldn´t be a coincidence anymore…
1st confirmation (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2404608/#msg2404608)
.
.
.

After consulting with rigol, I´ll send my scope to them in mid of june for fixing the noisy fan issue (and probably the dim display issue too).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: imo on May 30, 2019, 10:17:11 am
FYI - I had a chance to sit for an hour in front of a MSO5074 yesterday (delivered 5days back).
Display - no problems, brightness ok with me, readability from left-right almost 140deg, also from 12hours ok, the bottom 6hour angle is smaller, however.
Fan - not noticeable with me during the work. Sat 1m off the box.
4x4m room, closed windows, a quite street, 2 persons inside talking and messing with SPI.
Disclaimer: I cannot judge on the functionality, I am not related to Rigol, I do not own Rigol's hw yet.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: hhappy1 on May 30, 2019, 11:58:28 am
Hi~ sir.

Does anyone know of a 1.01 hardware difference?

My RIGOL is 1.00. and a different offset when self calibrated.

3ch At 10mv, dc gain is not within normal range.

When the same signal, the two channels are different.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on May 30, 2019, 01:18:41 pm
Quote
Does anyone know of a 1.01 hardware difference?

A new Hardware-Version does exist ??
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on May 30, 2019, 08:03:27 pm
I decided to give the Rigol MSO5074 another chance

New scope seems to have a low noise fan and the display brightness is much better than previous one

I ran an SPI test comparing it to the Keysight EDUX1002G (DSO1102G):  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/impressive-keysight-1000x-series-(edux1002g-modded)-spi-triggering-rate/msg2449452/#msg2449452 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/impressive-keysight-1000x-series-(edux1002g-modded)-spi-triggering-rate/msg2449452/#msg2449452)

Summary of test: STM32 nucleo board running @ 180MHz.  45MHz SPI clock.  The test outputs 50,000 full cycles of 8 frames from 1 byte to 8 bytes.  When a button is pressed, it sends a frame with 1 byte with value 0x3F.  Normally one of the 8 frames has byte value 0x37 in the same position.

I cannot make the Rigol to trigger more than 2,000 times/sec @ 1Mpts on SPI trigger mode of the 50,000 byte 0x37 being generated (per second) by the test board.

The test also generates a random byte 0x3F when a button is pressed, and the Rigol cannot detect it using MASK Test while triggering on byte 0x37.  The Keysight gets around 20-50% of the event, the Siglent SDS1104X-E none and the Rigol MSO5074 none.

EDIT: I was able to get 50,000 triggers per second on the Rigol MSO5074 by setting memory depth to auto (it uses 1Kpts).  And I also was able to catch the random byte 0x3F on the Rigol 100% of the time while triggering 50,000 times on 0x37 by using infinite persistence and also 25% using zone triggering.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on May 30, 2019, 08:28:48 pm
Quote
New scope seems to have a low noise fan and the display brightness is much better than previous one

Ahhh….probably this will awaits me when my 5074 returns from the rigol service, nice.... :D

Quote
The Keysight gets around 20-50% of the event, the Siglent SDS1104X-E none and the Rigol MSO5074 none.

Probably you should use a specific hardware which can only decoding for this special case.
Decoding features on scopes are in my opinion the same league as doing FFT with it - Nice to have, in most cases useful, but not in every case/needing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on May 30, 2019, 08:40:03 pm
Probably you should use a specific hardware which can only decoding for this special case.
It is not a specific use case that I have, it is just a scope decoding benchmark I created and was able to test it on Keysight, Siglent, GWInstek, Micsig and now Rigol scopes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on May 30, 2019, 08:42:38 pm
Is there a separate forum thread where I can report bugs?

In search menu, if you go to set the threshold values, they are not considering the probe attenuation into account.  I have the probes set to 10X on CH1, CH2 and CH3 (SCK, CS and MOSI) and the values are @ 1X probe attenuation (i.e. 128mV on search menu, when it should be 1.28V)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on May 30, 2019, 08:45:06 pm
Serial protocol triggering and search seem to be implemented independent of the decoding (display).  Even when the decoding is disabled, you can set trigger to SPI and do search on SPI as well.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on May 30, 2019, 09:00:05 pm
It is not a specific use case that I have, it is just a scope decoding benchmark I created and was able to test it on Keysight, Siglent, GWInstek, Micsig and now Rigol scopes.

It is a specific use case that most people would not encounter. We even get different results trying to measure the same thing.
Anyway, why are you using 1Mpt dept, why can't it be lower?

I've shown in your thread that 50,000 triggers per second with the Rigol is possible. It would also capture every unusual SPI event (about once per second).

Serial protocol triggering and search seem to be implemented independent of the decoding (display).  Even when the decoding is disabled, you can set trigger to SPI and do search on SPI as well.

Yes this seems to be the case that there is some processing done in HW and some in SW. So either Rigol has not had time to make use of the HW functionality yet, and it was easier to implement in SW, or there are limits to the HW (ie can trigger but can't store all the packets).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on May 30, 2019, 09:01:34 pm
Quote
It is not a specific use case that I have, it is just a scope decoding benchmark I created

When a benchmark is not a specific use, I wouldn´t know any another one.

Quote
Is there a separate forum thread where I can report bugs?

Yes there is one, but actual I can´t find it (modify this when found)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on May 30, 2019, 09:29:21 pm
It is not a specific use case that I have, it is just a scope decoding benchmark I created and was able to test it on Keysight, Siglent, GWInstek, Micsig and now Rigol scopes.

It is a specific use case that most people would not encounter. We even get different results trying to measure the same thing.
Anyway, why are you using 1Mpt dept, why can't it be lower?

I've shown in your thread that 50,000 triggers per second with the Rigol is possible. It would also capture every unusual SPI event (about once per second).

Serial protocol triggering and search seem to be implemented independent of the decoding (display).  Even when the decoding is disabled, you can set trigger to SPI and do search on SPI as well.

Yes this seems to be the case that there is some processing done in HW and some in SW. So either Rigol has not had time to make use of the HW functionality yet, and it was easier to implement in SW, or there are limits to the HW (ie can trigger but can't store all the packets).
Setting Auto Mem Depth (1Kpts in this case) I can get 50,000 triggers per second.  I still cannot make Zone trigger to work with the random byte 0x3F
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Commodore8888 on May 30, 2019, 09:43:56 pm
Ah, the second confirmation of my measurement, so it couldn´t be a coincidence anymore…
1st confirmation (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2404608/#msg2404608)
.
.
.

After consulting with rigol, I´ll send my scope to them in mid of june for fixing the noisy fan issue (and probably the dim display issue too).

We'll see what Rigol USA says then about my launch 5074...

Worst case, it's a cheap scope and I'm not averse to blowing away the warranty  8)
(Granted, seeing as the warranty sticker on one of our work MSO7024s literally just fell off....can't imagine they can void warranty just over that. Case law supports that as well....

Unauth mods...well...that's legit void there LOL)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on May 30, 2019, 10:07:01 pm
Hi~ sir.
Does anyone know of a 1.01 hardware difference?
My RIGOL is 1.00. and a different offset when self calibrated.
3ch At 10mv, dc gain is not within normal range.
When the same signal, the two channels are different.

Did you let it warm up ~15min+ before starting self calibration, and all channels are disconnected? Try doing it again.

I don't see any offset issue if I set all channels to 10mV, and 4x average I get: -255uV, -550uV, -420uV, and -300uV. I see a slight difference between channel 1, 2 and channel 3, 4 in terms of vertical amplitude but its not very much. 1.460V vs 1.413V for example.

Hardware difference is not confirmed yet.

Setting Auto Mem Depth (1Kpts in this case) I can get 50,000 triggers per second.  I still cannot make Zone trigger to work with the random byte 0x3F

Not sure what the difference is. Maybe the byte I used was easier to trigger on?
Move the zone to an existing trace to make sure it works there, then move it back to the 'empty' space.
Also try turning on infinite persistence, to make sure you can see the random glitch byte show up on the screen.

edit: you seem to make things difficult for yourself, please see attached for: spi only trigger, spi + zone trigger.  Maybe you can update your thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/impressive-keysight-1000x-series-(edux1002g-modded)-spi-triggering-rate/msg2449452/#msg2449452) if you are able to.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on May 30, 2019, 11:36:31 pm
I updated my post as I was able to get what I wanted from the Rigol MSO5074... 50,000 triggers per second and detect the random byte 0x3F on the MOSI line.

This is the 2nd MSO5074 I am testing and the UI is more responsive and the LCD is brighter than the previous unit.  I tested both units with the same firmware 1.1.04.04

I found a bug within minutes of using it, but usable... :-+  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: hhappy1 on May 31, 2019, 02:26:14 am
Hi~ sir.
Does anyone know of a 1.01 hardware difference?
My RIGOL is 1.00. and a different offset when self calibrated.
3ch At 10mv, dc gain is not within normal range.
When the same signal, the two channels are different.

Did you let it warm up ~15min+ before starting self calibration, and all channels are disconnected? Try doing it again.

I don't see any offset issue if I set all channels to 10mV, and 4x average I get: -255uV, -550uV, -420uV, and -300uV. I see a slight difference between channel 1, 2 and channel 3, 4 in terms of vertical amplitude but its not very much. 1.460V vs 1.413V for example.

Hardware difference is not confirmed yet.
--------------------------------------------------

Yes.

I tested it after 30 minutes and 1 hour.

I think calibration error is big.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on May 31, 2019, 07:23:11 pm
Yes.

I tested it after 30 minutes and 1 hour.

I think calibration error is big.

You could wait for the next firmware as that includes some calibration changes (but not specifically for offsets I don't think).

Quote
DC Offset Accuracy <200 mV/div (±0.1 div ±2 mV ±1.5% of offset value)

Your CH3 has 2mV offset, so technically that is in spec.

Quote
DC Gain Accuracy[2] ± 3% of full scale

3% of 1V is 30mV. And your gain difference between CH1 and CH3 looks to be ~40mV? (measurement shows more but thats peak so not sure if it can be trusted). Probably significant enough to open a case with rigol support and see what they say.

You tried swapping probes between the two channels as well right?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on May 31, 2019, 07:41:47 pm
This is the 2nd MSO5074 I am testing and the UI is more responsive [...] than the previous unit.  I tested both units with the same firmware 1.1.04.04

Hmm, are you sure about the difference in responsiveness? If it is real, and not due to a firmware change, wouldn't that imply a more substantial hardware revision (than just changing a few resistors for display brightness)?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on May 31, 2019, 07:50:41 pm
This question makes me nervous…

See also :

Quote
Does anyone know of a 1.01 hardware difference?

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on June 11, 2019, 12:05:52 am
I'm not sure if this has been discussed already, but can someone explain how the spec (http://www.electro-meters.com/Assets/pdf2_files/Rigol/Oscilloscopes/MSO5000.pdf) works:

Quote
Vertical Resolution:  8 bits
Vertical Sensitivity Range[3]: 1 mV/div~10 V/div
Dynamic Range: ±5 div (8 bits)

Note[3]: 1 mV/div and 2 mV/div are a magnification of 4 mV/div setting. For vertical accuracy calculations, use full scale of 32 mV for 1 mV/div and 2 mV/div sensitivity setting

If you set acquisition to normal and scale to 500uV/div, then the smallest step seen is 66.6uV. Setting to Dots or Vectors doesn't make a difference. This would imply the screen is showing 66.6uV * 255 bit / 10 divisions = 1.7mV/div (I'm not implying its actually measuring it, just showing it).

This is even seen at the 1ns time base. But the smallest x deviation I see is 40-90ps. 8GS/s = 125ps per sample. So I can't see it averaging x-data to get an intermediate value, but it may be a consequence of sin(x)/x calculations? With high-res on the y-resolution increases, as expected.

In the screenshot below, its a bit confusing to me to see a bunch of samples at the same level, then a single 90ps positive deviation, then back to the same level. This is an odd coincidence that the ASIC can do 10Gs/s, which is 100ps. Is there any chance it is not running at 8GS/s, or are these just artifacts of various internal calculations?

edit: on the 500uV or 1mV/div settings, 20MHz bandwidth limit is automatically enabled.
2mV/div range the smallest y deviation is 133uV, and x same as before 60-90ps.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on June 13, 2019, 07:59:15 pm
After consulting with rigol, I´ll send my scope to them in mid of june for fixing the noisy fan issue (and probably the dim display issue too).

Now it´s on it´s way...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on June 26, 2019, 05:45:50 pm
Now it´s on it´s way back... ;)
Should arrive on friday.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on June 28, 2019, 04:52:11 pm
Got it back... (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso-5000-hardwaresoftware-revisions/msg2515140/#msg2515140)

Martin
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: brouhaha on July 01, 2019, 09:21:13 pm
Has anyone found a carrying case well-suited fro the MSO5000?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 02, 2019, 06:53:24 pm
Has anyone found a carrying case well-suited fro the MSO5000?

Rigol makes some:

eg. https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/CARRY-BAG-B1/Cases/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/CARRY-BAG-B1/Cases/)

(https://res.cloudinary.com/iwh/image/upload/q_auto,g_center/w_360,h_360,c_pad/assets/1/26/BAG-DS1000.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 02, 2019, 08:04:51 pm
No new firmware so far….
Planned for may, then sometime in june, now we got july...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on July 03, 2019, 01:32:06 am
No new firmware so far….
Planned for may, then sometime in june, now we got july...
How typical... major dejav-vu here.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on July 03, 2019, 03:58:23 pm
Disappointing. Waiting for DS1054Z type maturity, then I may upgrade. Will wait until 2021 :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: rsjsouza on July 03, 2019, 06:50:46 pm
DS4000 series was like that as well. I guess they are not entirely aware of the potential they have on their hands.

That or sheer incompetence.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 03, 2019, 07:38:28 pm
Quote
How typical..

I don´t expect monthly fw-updates from any one and none of the manufactors would do this - Still waiting for a bug to remove from our lecroy scope for nearly 2 years, another bug for a year.
And this one is a "serious" bug, not the little things what the mso5000 concerns.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: brouhaha on July 09, 2019, 03:04:42 am
You do realize that not all oscilloscopes are the same size, right? Rigol makes cases for some of their instruments. None are listed as being for the MSO5000, but digging further, none appear to be for instruments that have dimensions particularly close to those of the MSO5000. That's why I asked.

The bag you linked to is for a DS1000, which has dimensions 325mm x 159mm x133mm (DS1000B) or 303mm x 154mm x 133mm (DS1000E).

The MSO5000 dimensions are 367mm x 200mm x 130mm, so essentially the same depth but significantly wider and taller than a DS1000.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Elminster on July 09, 2019, 03:58:09 pm
https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/ (https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/)

Shows Rigol Bag-G1 is the correct official bag.

Random site for it is:

https://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Rigol-BAG-G1-Soft-Carry-Bag-p/bag-g1.htm (https://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Rigol-BAG-G1-Soft-Carry-Bag-p/bag-g1.htm)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 09, 2019, 08:24:49 pm

I don´t expect monthly fw-updates

And they got a good reason actually(was informed).
All priorities lies on the launch of the 8000 series (very soon), after that, the fw upgrade will come.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on July 09, 2019, 08:38:35 pm
Or another device which then requires the full attention of the software team.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexvg on July 09, 2019, 09:08:44 pm
Hi,
I've got a problem with this oscilloscope.
The heat on the back is very high and the front panel is hot too but not as much as the BNCs do (so hot !).
Dave opened the device and I've understood the problem : the internal fan doesn't not suck fresh air.
Why Rigol did not put the fan against the back side instead of inside ?

I'ld like to modify the device with a better fan place, model, fan duct...  but it's not possible without void the warranty.

To limit this temperature problem I've put a fan at outside of the back panel (see picture).
The fan is a 120mm low-noise model (Noctua NF-P12) powered with little 12V transformer.
It's pull the fresh air from the outside to the inside the device directly toward the internal fan.

The fan is fixed with little plastic wires and power is controlled with a global power strip button (oscilloscope, fan and others devices).

Now all seems to be good and not too hot.


Hope that could help you.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 09, 2019, 09:22:35 pm
Or another device which then requires the full attention of the software team.

Always seeing black instead of white...Lecroy did the same, they told me the same as I did a request what the WS3000 concerns.
A normal behavior...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on July 09, 2019, 10:21:38 pm
The heat on the back is very high and the front panel is hot too but not as much as the BNCs do (so hot !).
You must have a faulty scope.  I can have mine ON for more than 10 hours and the BNCs are at room temperature, no warming at all.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on July 09, 2019, 10:24:13 pm
Or another device which then requires the full attention of the software team.

Always seeing black instead of white...Lecroy did the same, they told me the same as I did a request what the WS3000 concerns.
A normal behavior...
There are more manufacturers out there than Lecroy. Most of the A-brands can provide some kind of roadmap for releasing new software and / or have fixed release schedules. R&S for example releases a new firmware update for the RTM3000 series about every 6 months. 'When something else is done' is not a schedule. It is saying 'we don't know, we don't care and we have not assigned any resources'. It doesn't instill any confidence in me. I've been down that road before.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: rsjsouza on July 10, 2019, 12:51:03 am
Or another device which then requires the full attention of the software team.

Always seeing black instead of white...Lecroy did the same, they told me the same as I did a request what the WS3000 concerns.
A normal behavior...
There are more manufacturers out there than Lecroy. Most of the A-brands can provide some kind of roadmap for releasing new software and / or have fixed release schedules. R&S for example releases a new firmware update for the RTM3000 series about every 6 months. 'When something else is done' is not a schedule. It is saying 'we don't know, we don't care and we have not assigned any resources'. It doesn't instill any confidence in me. I've been down that road before.
As a maintainer of software released at regular times, I can vouch for that as well.

In our organization, existing products have allocated resources from the dev teams to meet the planned schedule according to the software quality metrics previously agreed by the organization (or sometimes defined by an external agent such as ISO).

Having a new product in the pipeline sucking all resources and (supposedly) killing any hope for critical bug fixes and reaching the previously agreed release plans does not inspire confidence.

Obviously that I have absolutely no idea how Rigol runs their shop, but history shows they seem to bite more than can chew.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on July 10, 2019, 05:54:13 pm
The heat on the back is very high and the front panel is hot too but not as much as the BNCs do (so hot !).
You must have a faulty scope.  I can have mine ON for more than 10 hours and the BNCs are at room temperature, no warming at all.

Mine is quite toasty especially the LA connector (55C) but the BNCs are fine. I wonder if they played with the fan speed settings at all.
May need to take a closer look inside in the future.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexvg on July 10, 2019, 06:27:20 pm
Hi !
I've found the same temperatures with DMM and a temperature probe.
I've tear down the oscilloscope and remove the original 80mm fan.
The fan voltage is 6.5V.

I've installed a 120mm fan and some foam to force the air flow to been pulled on the right and extracted on the left.
The LA connector drops 5C and rear air flow drops 10C.

I'm trying to find a better solution.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 10, 2019, 06:58:45 pm
R&S for example releases a new firmware update for the RTM3000 series about every 6 months.

So we have 2 Month left.. ;)

Quote
Mine is quite toasty especially the LA connector (55C)

After the mod mine is getting warmer too - But 55°C aren´t a value which would me make nervous.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: matlipinski on July 11, 2019, 08:00:41 pm
Hi. I've bougth MSO5074 few days ago, and I had problems with overcompensation, so I could not compensate probes properly. After contacting Rigol support, I've received new firmare 04.01.04.04. Firmware solves overcompensation problem, and some others. So I think new firmware is on the way.

Before (01.01.04.04):
[attach=1]

After (04.01.04.04):
[attach=2]

[attach=3]
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on July 11, 2019, 08:07:38 pm
That’s good news. I’m getting itchy spending fingers  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexvg on July 13, 2019, 12:49:18 am
After tear down, i've done some additionnal pictures...

A new power supply ? (different from Dave MSO5000 review pictures)
[attachimg=6]


My new proto airduct
[attachimg=1]


Not purple, but green(+9V) and black(GND) (on the second connector, be warning of the second black wire, it's a +7V)
+12V = red(+5V) and purple(-7V)
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=2]

I've tryed several fans...
- Noctua NF-F12 iPPC3000 PWM (3000trs/min ; 186.7m3/h ; 43.5dBA ; 7.63mm H2O)
- Noctua NF-P12 (1300trs/min ; 92.3m3/h ; 20dBA ; 1.68mm H2O)

Room temperature is 25-26C
The NF-F12 is too noisy even at 9V (analog input front end temperature is 33C)
The NF-P12 is correct at 12V but temperature at analog input front-end reach 40C (instead of 50C)
I'm waiting for another 2000trs/min model.

I've spent lot of time to analyse all heat sources.
I think the back panel and the original cooler system has a design flaw.

There's not a real airflow (left to right or front to back).

I'm trying to develop a simple 3D printed solution (or a cardboard solution) which could be easily build

Rigol> Why not create an efficient airflow ?
[attachimg=5]


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 13, 2019, 08:42:32 am
After contacting Rigol support, I've received new firmare 04.01.04.04.

04.01.04.04

 :wtf:  How can that be???

Can you show a system info picture?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 13, 2019, 08:53:29 am
And they got a good reason actually(was informed).
All priorities lies on the launch of the 8000 series (very soon), after that, the fw upgrade will come.

Although 8000 is basically 7000 with higher BW, i heard it will bring a few things that are not accomplishable with lower BWs.

And seems possible that they test the new bug corrections in the new 8000, since they are finishing it, and then replicate in the 5000/7000. The FWs look very similar.

Remember, we 5000 buyers have already been captured!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 13, 2019, 09:57:38 am
As I first asked, they told me, the priority lies on a poject which will be finishing soon, then they´ll go ahead with the FW.
And as I guessed, is it the 8000, the second answer came prompt and short : Yes, this is correct….. ;)

Quote
After tear down, i've done some additionnal pictures...

Warranty lost, but nice pics - and nice idea about the fan.
It makes me very curious, what they´ve done to my mso5....very curious and a few screws away...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexvg on July 13, 2019, 11:54:37 am
The hack will void the warranty...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 13, 2019, 01:02:50 pm
You open it up, change the hardware - and warranty remains.
You modify the booting with all options including, everytime reversible - and warranty will void.
Interesting…
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 13, 2019, 02:32:42 pm
Interesting…

It's called soft void. The other is hard void.  ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexvg on July 13, 2019, 03:37:12 pm
1. After hacking the device, the warranty is void.
2. After opening the device, the warranty is void.
3. After modifying the device, the warranty is void.
I've done all 3.
Lot's of people have only done the first one.
(Using a non-Rigol MSO5000 Logic Analyser Probe will void the warranty ? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rpl1116-active-logic-probe-pod-for-1000z-series-teardown/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rpl1116-active-logic-probe-pod-for-1000z-series-teardown/) )

In case of warranty needs :
I could totaly restore the device hardware without beeing detected.
But I don't know if a firmware restoration could be possible without beeing detected.

My goal is to provide a better longevity to this device.
The low quality power supply capacitors and all temperatures too high weak the device and reduce its life.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexvg on July 13, 2019, 04:09:09 pm
4-pins power supply connector
Code: [Select]
+7V_A ... Black
GND ..... not used
GND ..... Black
+9V ..... Green


6-pins power supply connector
Code: [Select]
+7V_B ... Black
-7V ..... Purple
GND ..... Blue
GND ..... Black
+5V ..... Yellow
+5V ..... Red

"+7V_A" and "+7V_B" are differents.
The 2 pins "+5V" are the same.
"+9V" is send to the fan throught a measured resistance of 36.5R

The rear panel without the original fan and its metal part.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 13, 2019, 07:00:41 pm
Quote
But I don't know if a firmware restoration could be possible without beeing detected.

(https://s18.directupload.net/images/190713/temp/tjdrfv6w.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5512/tjdrfv6w_jpg.htm)

Hm-Hm...

Maybe this :

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-rigol-mso5000-tests-bugs-questions/msg2521134/#msg2521134 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-rigol-mso5000-tests-bugs-questions/msg2521134/#msg2521134)

Have provide me....
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nimish on July 13, 2019, 09:39:08 pm
1. After hacking the device, the warranty is void.
2. After opening the device, the warranty is void.
3. After modifying the device, the warranty is void.
I've done all 3.
Lot's of people have only done the first one.
(Using a non-Rigol MSO5000 Logic Analyser Probe will void the warranty ? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rpl1116-active-logic-probe-pod-for-1000z-series-teardown/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rpl1116-active-logic-probe-pod-for-1000z-series-teardown/) )

In case of warranty needs :
I could totaly restore the device hardware without beeing detected.
But I don't know if a firmware restoration could be possible without beeing detected.

My goal is to provide a better longevity to this device.
The low quality power supply capacitors and all temperatures too high weak the device and reduce its life.

FYI: Magnuson-Moss in the US prevents 1,2,3 from being used against you unless Rigol can prove your mods caused the issue.

Not that Rigol is whom you should go with for warranty support or support in general, but the law is on the consumer side here.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nimish on July 13, 2019, 09:41:25 pm
Quote
But I don't know if a firmware restoration could be possible without beeing detected.

(https://s18.directupload.net/images/190713/temp/tjdrfv6w.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5512/tjdrfv6w_jpg.htm)

Hm-Hm...

Maybe this :

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-rigol-mso5000-tests-bugs-questions/msg2521134/#msg2521134 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-rigol-mso5000-tests-bugs-questions/msg2521134/#msg2521134)

Have provide me....

Connecting a scope to the internet is a fantastically stupid idea, given that these products are not built by people with any real software experience. Just d/l the firmware and flash upgrade via a USB stick. I wouldn't be surprised if someone found a RCE vuln that could literally destroy the scope by messing with HW params set in software.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 13, 2019, 09:53:09 pm
Quote
Connecting a scope to the internet is a fantastically stupid idea, given that these products are not built by people with any real software experience.

But obviously they did it.
Stupid People who could design a scope.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Mr. Scram on July 13, 2019, 11:48:23 pm
Connecting a scope to the internet is a fantastically stupid idea, given that these products are not built by people with any real software experience. Just d/l the firmware and flash upgrade via a USB stick. I wouldn't be surprised if someone found a RCE vuln that could literally destroy the scope by messing with HW params set in software.
It's an IoT device, except that it's a precision instrument and over 1K euro. What could possibly go wrong?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexvg on July 14, 2019, 01:31:38 am
FYI: Magnuson-Moss in the US prevents 1,2,3 from being used against you unless Rigol can prove your mods caused the issue.

Not that Rigol is whom you should go with for warranty support or support in general, but the law is on the consumer side here.

Thanks for these informations.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 14, 2019, 08:32:45 am
Could you take a photo from the lcd-display, the backside ?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexvg on July 15, 2019, 06:51:18 am
Could you take a photo from the lcd-display, the backside ?
I do not want to completely dismantle the device to take this photo.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexvg on July 15, 2019, 02:54:24 pm
Here is the heat sources.
[attachimg=1]

The airflow through LA connector is very hot due to high heat sources proximity.

The Rigol cooling system just stirs up the air.

update:
After restored the original cooling system... I'm trying multiple solutions to improve cooling without any success : too noisy or not enough efficient.
Original 80x80x25mm Sunon fan to mainboard.
Added 120x120x15 Noctua NF-A12x15 FLX fan to 9V from power supply

Results @ ambiant 25C
Right side of LA connector (hottest pin) : 50C
Hottest BNC (GI connector) : 38C

But noise is too high...

[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]



Now I'm going to reverse the flow of the original fan and do multiple tests...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexvg on July 15, 2019, 09:36:29 pm
I've just inverted the airflow of the 2 fans, the result is worst.
But if I had the skirt to the 80x80x25 Sunon fan, the result is very good : LA connector is 44C and BNC is 39C. Noise is a bit lower. Ambiant is 25C.
With the Sunon and Noctua at 9V, the Noise is higher but LA connector is 41C and BNC is 36C.

Conclusion : The original 80x80x25 Sunon fan is definitely not a good idea.

Now I'm going to test again the original configuration to have more temperature values.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexvg on July 16, 2019, 12:15:24 am
I've finished doing all temperature measurements with original fan configuration...
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: rsjsouza on July 16, 2019, 01:19:10 am
68°C on those poor devices?!? Wow... Just... Wow...

The ADC at 51°C is at that level probably because of its surroundings
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexvg on July 16, 2019, 03:43:26 pm
The hottest point (68C) seems to be voltage regulators :
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 16, 2019, 03:50:59 pm
Quote
68°C on those poor devices?!?

Nothing uncommon for voltage regulators without explicit heatsinks.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: rsjsouza on July 16, 2019, 06:09:14 pm
Quote
68°C on those poor devices?!?

Nothing uncommon for voltage regulators without explicit heatsinks.
The temperature is terrible if the part is rated for commercial use at 70°C - something hard to see from the then published photo.

Voltage regulators don't carry "explicit heatsinks" but properly sized PCB ground planes soldered to their Thermal pads instead.

P.S. The part is a TPS7A33 (http://www.ti.com/product/TPS7A33), which is rated for 125°C, so it is ok for the part itself, but still not great for the overall system due to the temperature differences caused between the channels. But I grant this is par for the course of such integrated device.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on July 16, 2019, 07:11:05 pm
Where these measurements done using black non-reflective spots (black paper stickers for example)? Otherwise the temperatures will be way off due to reflections and different emissivities.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on July 16, 2019, 08:31:47 pm
The temperature is terrible if the part is rated for commercial use at 70°C - something hard to see from the then published photo.

Voltage regulators don't carry "explicit heatsinks" but properly sized PCB ground planes soldered to their Thermal pads instead.

P.S. The part is a TPS7A33 (http://www.ti.com/product/TPS7A33), which is rated for 125°C, so it is ok for the part itself, but still not great for the overall system due to the temperature differences caused between the channels. But I grant this is par for the course of such integrated device.

0 to 50C is the rated operating temperature.
43C over ambient so maybe 93C at 50C ambient.

TPS7A33 is rated 125C junction, but you have to take into account junction to case rating (30 C per Watt) as well.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 16, 2019, 09:18:03 pm
Quote
Voltage regulators don't carry "explicit heatsinks" but properly sized PCB ground planes soldered to their Thermal pads instead.

Oh really, and I thought they´re hanging in the air.  ;)

Quote
Where these measurements done using black non-reflective spots (black paper stickers for example)? Otherwise the temperatures will be way off due to reflections and different emissivities.

I´m thinking about a "classical" measurement with K-Type sensors but at home I couldn´t measure more than 2 points at the same time.
At work we got a yokogawa 16-channel device..
By the way, my question about the decreased fan power and if they (rigol) got it in mind what heating up the enviroment concerns due to this wouldn´t be answered until now, very uncommon.

Quote
The Rigol cooling system just stirs up the air.

Yepp, today I got mine opening too to look what they´ve changed :

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso-5000-hardwaresoftware-revisions/msg2550510/#msg2550510 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso-5000-hardwaresoftware-revisions/msg2550510/#msg2550510)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexvg on July 16, 2019, 09:31:34 pm
I´m thinking about a "classical" measurement with K-Type sensors but at home I couldn´t measure more than 2 points at the same time.
At work we got a yokogawa 16-channel device..
I have multiple K-type thermocouples and I could measure 4 temperatures at once (with around 1-2C precision between them - I've checked 3 temperatures : -25C, ambiant and sun).
And the Flir could not be used... Dave already used Flir over the PCB.


By the way, my question about the decreased fan power and if they (rigol) got it in mind what heating up the enviroment concerns due to this wouldn´t be answered until now, very uncommon.
Quote
The Rigol cooling system just stirs up the air.
I think using this current (stir up the air) system will reduce the lifetime. Is it a choice or a drawback to a less-noisy device ?

Yepp, today I got mine opening too to look what they´ve changed :
I've got the same revision (I've removed properly the Rigol warranty sticker...).

I'm going to try a 90mm Noctua fan... I wish to propose a solution not requiring to remove the 4 rivets and the metal support of the fan.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexvg on July 17, 2019, 01:46:49 am
I've found a solution, here's the result (ambiant 25C - after 1h warm-up) :
- 50C @ internal regulator (18C lower)
- 40C @ hottest analog front-end channel (6C to 11C lower)
- 34C @ LA connector (22C lower)
- 34C @ hottest BNC connector (4C to 5C lower)
- The noise level is correct (same level as Siglent SDM3055)

Simple description (pictures come later) for this first modification "MSO5000_cooling_mod_a"
- You need to remove the metal protection panel
- Replace the original Sunon fan with a Noctua NF-A9 5V and mount with output airflow upside
- Create an airduct adapter to convert the original 80mm hole and screw holes to the new 92mm Noctua fan (height does not exceed 8mm)
- Pick the 5V on red wire from power supply and ground from hearth screw to the new Noctua fan (warning !!! 5V only !)
- Attach another Noctua NF-A12x15 FLX fan to the back-panel (airflow will come in), it will be over the power-supply
- Make a converter from the original Rigol 2-pin fan connector to a classical 3-pin fan connector and connect the new 120mm Noctua fan (after checking the ground to earth and +V to the green wire)
- Install the specific skirt (I'll post pictures and schematic later)

Pro :
- Not necessary to remove original metal fan-frame and the 4 rivets
- Temperatures are far below from the original design

Cons :
- Need to open the unit and remove the internal metal protection panel
- Noise is a little higher
- Need to buy 2 fans (Noctua NF-A9 5V and Noctua NF-A12x15 FLX)
- Need to create a 80 to 92mm airduct adapter with a small height (8mm)
- Attaching the 120mm fan to the back side of the box could be complicated


Airduct adapter 80 to 92mm fan using cardboard
[attachimg=1]

Airduct schematic using 80-300g/m2 paper (.1mm = 1pixel)
[attachurl=6]

[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexvg on July 17, 2019, 01:25:20 pm
To lower the noise, I've done 2 modifications :
- I've removed the connection to the mainboard power supply fan connector. I've added a 50R resistor to the Noctua 120mm fan to the +9V from the power supply. You also could use the mainboard fan connector with a 12R resistor.
- I've added a 1N4007 diode to the Noctua 92mm 5V fan.

The global noise level is the same as the original Sunon fan.
I'm waiting for the temperature results...


update

Temperature results (original Rigol cooling/previous test/current test) :
Code: [Select]
internal regulator                 68C / 50C / 51C
hottest analog front-end channel   51C / 40C / 42C
LA connector                       56C / 34C / 41C
hottest BNC connector              39C / 34C / 37C

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 17, 2019, 01:29:33 pm
By the way, my question about the decreased fan power and if they (rigol) got it in mind what heating up the enviroment concerns due to this wouldn´t be answered until now.

Got the answer, it was tested by the developement department before release.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexvg on July 17, 2019, 01:38:32 pm
I've received a similar answer...
Quote
The manufacturer (Rigol) has tested the equipment and informs us that the temperature released by the device is normal.

I think the cooling has been voluntary reduced to lower the noise but knowing that in the long-term, the life of the device would be decreased.



update:
I've done the new skirt with 300g/m2 paper, the results are little better (original Rigol cooling/previous test/90g paper test/300g paper test) :
Code: [Select]
internal regulator                 68C / 50C / 51C / 50C
hottest analog front-end channel   51C / 40C / 42C / 42C
LA connector                       56C / 34C / 41C / 39C
hottest BNC connector              39C / 34C / 37C / 38C

The new skirt fits perfectly !!!
[attachimg=1]


update #2
I've added a second diode to the Noctua 92mm 5V fan to reduce its speed and noise (now its voltage is 4.1V).
I've plugged the Noctua 120mm to the 9V output (its noise keep very low).

Temperature results (original Rigol cooling/this test)
Code: [Select]
internal regulator                 68C / 51C
hottest analog front-end channel   51C / 42C
LA connector                       56C / 42C
hottest BNC connector              39C / 37C
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: hhappy1 on July 24, 2019, 12:33:40 am
Hi. sir.~

The arbitrary waveform format is '.arb'

Do you know the editing software?

I don't think it's compatible with other devices.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on July 24, 2019, 09:40:20 pm
Hi. sir.~

The arbitrary waveform format is '.arb'
Do you know the editing software?

I don't think it's compatible with other devices.

Ultra Station uses: csv, raf, txt as extensions.
The format looks very simple so maybe you just need to rename it to csv and it will work?
Code: [Select]
x-axis,WaveGen-ARB
second,Volt
0.000000E+00,1.0000E-01
2.857143E-02,0.0000E+00
5.714286E-02,1.0000E-03
8.571429E-02,2.0000E-03
1.142857E-01,3.0000E-03
1.428571E-01,0.0000E+00
1.714286E-01,0.0000E+00
 

Wow though, I never even knew you could edit an ARB waveform on the scope itself, very cool. That could be super useful if they had a non-50 ohm output... or you could throw on a simple buffer circuit powered via USB.
edit: playing with it too much can lock up the UI though.
edit2: no its completely different format than csv or txt, so for now you'd have to convert it, I have no idea why they did that. I think this format is the best though (csv/txt used fixed time steps).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mabl on August 01, 2019, 11:56:15 am
Ultra Station uses: csv, raf, txt as extensions.
The format looks very simple so maybe you just need to rename it to csv and it will work?
Code: [Select]
x-axis,WaveGen-ARB
second,Volt
0.000000E+00,1.0000E-01
2.857143E-02,0.0000E+00
5.714286E-02,1.0000E-03
8.571429E-02,2.0000E-03
1.142857E-01,3.0000E-03
1.428571E-01,0.0000E+00
1.714286E-01,0.0000E+00
 

When saved as .arb file, the scope successfully loads the voltage levels.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mabl on August 18, 2019, 03:06:51 pm
Problem is with the fact that it is not specified how HIRES is done and that you have no control over how many averages (how many bits) HIRES is doing. They might be doing it with filter of length 2 which would only give 0,5 bit enhancement which would pretty much be not visible.
It should be made like averaging so you can set how many bits of enhancement you want and it should correspondingly show effective sampling rate AND effective bandwidth with that filter setting..

At least the new firmware shows the 3-db bandwidth of the HIRES mode whenever sample rate/memory depth changes....
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on August 18, 2019, 08:37:38 pm
New firmware.....
Doesn´t appear for downloading at the rigol USA or Europe site so far.

What the hi-res thing concerns, everyone knows that I´m moaning about as you can´t see anything "better" in this mode.
Maybe I get things wrong, because:
Actually we have a lecroy HDO scope on loan, which got a "natural" 12 bit resolution.
And I measured the same signal as months before ( must search here), a sinewave current over an 1 \$\Omega\$ shunt.
And it appears as noisy as on 8-bit scopes.
After choosing the "Eres" function, +3bit, it becomes "clean" to see.
Could it be that enhanced resolution does not equal a higher vertical resolution in general, rather somekind of filtering ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 18, 2019, 08:58:23 pm
Could it be that enhanced resolution does not equal a higher vertical resolution in general, rather somekind of filtering ?

Yes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on August 18, 2019, 09:07:20 pm
Ah, so I want to put it on my wishlist for further updates.
Even siglent´s lower cost models got this function…

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on August 19, 2019, 09:03:54 pm
And I did it on my wishlist and wrote a mail to rigol…

The confuison was that lecroy claimed the enhanced resolution thing as a benefit of the vertical resolution instead as a filter.
So you can read for example vertical resolution 8bit ( with enhanced resolution 11 bit) in the specs.
Enhanced resolution is a noise filter, nevertheless rigol didn´t have this on the 3 models I know (DS1054, DS2072, MSO5).
Would be a nice to have…...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on August 19, 2019, 09:39:16 pm
Ah, so I want to put it on my wishlist for further updates.
Even siglent´s lower cost models got this function…
All recent models for ~5 years !

It's just another necessary tool in the toolbox !
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on August 19, 2019, 10:32:15 pm
I was massive surprised as I exprierence it on my former siglent sds 1104x-e scope.
Every scope should have this function and I was what this concerns really clear to rigol.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on September 10, 2019, 02:11:08 pm
Hello, is it a good idea to buy a RIGOL MSO5102 now? Is it a mature product now? Well, it was introduced many months ago. Is the firmware still buggy? BTW I still have my DSOX2002A bought back in 2013 and it is OK. The memory is not that huge, but it is enought for me.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: MegaVolt on September 10, 2019, 09:17:50 pm
Hello, is it a good idea to buy a RIGOL MSO5102 now? Is it a mature product now? Well, it was introduced many months ago. Is the firmware still buggy? BTW I still have my DSOX2002A bought back in 2013 and it is OK. The memory is not that huge, but it is enought for me.
It is better to take MSO5104. The difference in price is exactly equal to the price of two probes.

The oscilloscope itself is quite working. Especially if you are not interested in 50 ohms. There are nuances but they are not great.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on September 10, 2019, 10:48:58 pm
Hello, is it a good idea to buy a RIGOL MSO5102 now? Is it a mature product now? Well, it was introduced many months ago. Is the firmware still buggy? BTW I still have my DSOX2002A bought back in 2013 and it is OK. The memory is not that huge, but it is enought for me.
Why MSO5102 if you are going to hack it?  Buy the MSO5074
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on September 23, 2019, 12:47:43 pm
I saved a Wave in .csv format (another option is .bin)... but when I want to load it back, it only loads .wfm files... Am I missing something??? :palm: :palm: :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on September 23, 2019, 08:54:06 pm
I saved a Wave in .csv format (another option is .bin)... but when I want to load it back, it only loads .wfm files... Am I missing something??? :palm: :palm: :palm:

Don't think you are missing anything. We discussed a bit here but about the arb formats: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2568447/#msg2568447 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2568447/#msg2568447)

You can save and load waveforms if you use Reference button, then Export, it will let you save in bin/csv/ref. Then when you load a waveform it accepts .ref (why its necessary for another format again, not sure).
Looks like ref is about 80kB to 800kB+ for a file, whereas bin file is 4x larger 320K to 3MB (depending on pts). So Ref only saves 1 channel whereas "save wave" should save all channels it seems.

You could submit it as a bug to support.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 24, 2019, 12:56:04 am
I saved a Wave in .csv format (another option is .bin)... but when I want to load it back, it only loads .wfm files... Am I missing something??? :palm: :palm: :palm:

Yes.

.wfm files have a lot of extra meta-information that .csv doesn't have (eg. vertical position on screen, vertical scale, horizontal scale, memory depth, etc...)

It would be very difficult to load .csv and get your exact screen display back.

You could submit it as a bug to support.

It's not a bug. Once you start with "load .csv" then it's a long and slippery slope. People would want to generate lists of numbers in Excel/Python/Random-data-logging-device then expect to load them into the 'scope and do FFTs on it, etc.

It's an oscilloscope, not a spreadsheet.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on September 24, 2019, 12:04:32 pm
If what you are saving with "Save Wave" is different from what you are reading with "Load Wave", then at least Rigol must change the name on the menu.  It is confusing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on September 24, 2019, 08:55:31 pm
It's not a bug. Once you start with "load .csv" then it's a long and slippery slope. People would want to generate lists of numbers in Excel/Python/Random-data-logging-device then expect to load them into the 'scope and do FFTs on it, etc.

It's an oscilloscope, not a spreadsheet.

No, load CSV is not the bug I'm implying, that would be an added feature, "save as .wfm" is the bug. DS1000/2000 can both save in wfm format afaik.

edit: I tried loading a DS1052E .wfm file and it stated "invalid file format", but I think that is expected that different series are incompatible. Its also very hard to find example ds1000/ds2000 example WFM files online to download.
There is also this: https://rigol.desk.com/customer/en/portal/articles/2282335-wfm-converter
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: delfinom on October 03, 2019, 04:11:57 am
MSO5000 now has a special promo until March that unlocks all serial decoding and power analysis for free

https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0065:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on October 03, 2019, 10:37:23 am
MSO5000 now has a special promo until March that unlocks all serial decoding and power analysis for free

https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0065:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm
And wavegen
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: matlipinski on October 23, 2019, 12:30:10 pm
MSO5000 now has a special promo until March that unlocks all serial decoding and power analysis for free but it applies only to new devices purchased after 10.10.2019. Nice RIGOL... I have bought few days earlier...  |O :-- There is no info about that anywhere!

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on October 23, 2019, 12:46:16 pm
MSO5000 now has a special promo until March that unlocks all serial decoding and power analysis for free but it applies only to new devices purchased after 10.10.2019. Nice RIGOL... I have bought few days earlier...  |O :-- There is no info about that anywhere!
They are not being transparent about the promotion, I was told it started October 1st by Rigol North America.   :rant:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ebclr on October 23, 2019, 12:57:22 pm
Do the promotion yourself  :-DD It's not that hard   :-BROKE