Author Topic: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope  (Read 85795 times)

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Offline julianhigginson

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #175 on: November 15, 2018, 01:30:52 am »
I think it's safe to assume that the MSO5000 isn't particularly aimed at hobbyists.  Yeah there's configurations that are under the famous "big hobby expenditure bump" at $3k, but  it doesn't seem to be aimed at the people doing the same kind of things as DS1000z customers.

Lets see how the hack situation goes, but really I'm expecting they will plug that gap after having to give away so much functionality on the 1000z.

Also, all this talk about the 2 channel 70MHz version is a bit funny.

You guys realise that option is there as a price anchor for the versions they actually expect to sell?

The concept of having a scope at the level of the MSO5000, but only having 70MHz bandwidth and 2 channels (barbaric! who would have a scope with only 2 channels in this day and age?!??!) is just too depressing to consider.. If you only need 2 channels and 70MHz, well you really don't need 8GS/s and 500k captures/sec either, so just get the DS1000z.

If you're buying a MSO5000 for general professional embedded work, you're going to be looking at the 4 channel 200MHz version and the app bundle... US$3400ish. (plus maybe the logic analyser cable bundle for anther $400, but most can live without having an LA in their scope these days)  And assuming the implementation of the firmware is basically functional and the scope is easy to use and accurate and reliable, well that would be a great bargain looking at equivalent low/mid tek and keysight models.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 01:35:13 am by julianhigginson »
 

Offline chickenHeadKnob

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #176 on: November 15, 2018, 02:14:23 am »
The smallest fonts on the screen look to be equal in size to the smallest font on the DS2072a. Is that the case? I find them to be inscrutable. It would be a shame if that is still a problem, but at least you can hook up an external monitor so maybe not such a big deal.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #177 on: November 15, 2018, 02:53:33 am »
Has anyone hacked it yet?   Should i buy one and have a go.
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Offline maginnovision

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #178 on: November 15, 2018, 04:16:11 am »
Yea, I was going to wait until after christmas(no time before then anyway) but you should definitely see what's up!
 

Offline ResistorRob

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #179 on: November 15, 2018, 05:03:39 am »
From a poor hobbyist point of view. I have been wanting a new scope badly for a few years now, but have been going through some tough financial times. I could probably scrape together enough for a Rigol 1054z sometime soon but it was missing a few things on my wishlist and don't care for the toyish looks. The new Siglent 1104-x would fit my needs perfectly, but I drool in jealousy over touchscreen scopes. I love black test equipment and most my test equipment is black and from the 80's and 90's including my broken scope. If someone can hack this for $1,000 to get a touchscreen scope would be amazing. I say 1k because I would all 4 probes. I only need 100Mhz but unlocking serial decodes seems like a rip off. Then I would pay to get the logic analyzer probes down the road.

So as a serious hobbyist I would be willing to save up a longer time to get the touchscreen. The different size fonts don't bother me. Once I get a decent scope I will probably start a YouTube channel. I have some ideas for electronics projects that I'm really excited to do and nobody online has ever posted anything like them, and would be fun to share with the tiny community of old school hobbyists not the Rasperry Pi and Arduino crowd, and probably won't appeal to engineers either, lol.

I think Rigol did a nice job with this. My fingers are crossed it is hackable because if it is I will sell my soul to the devil to get one :-) 
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #180 on: November 15, 2018, 07:34:45 am »
I'm expecting they will plug that gap after having to give away so much functionality on the 1000z.

Huh? You don't think they "allowed" it? It wouldn't have sold otherwise.

The previous generation worked the same way (DS1052E was hackable).
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #181 on: November 15, 2018, 07:37:45 am »
I think Rigol did a nice job with this. My fingers are crossed it is hackable because if it is I will sell my soul to the devil to get one :-)

If it's soft-upgradable then it IS hackable. Period.

We just don't know how much effort it takes (nobody has one yet!)
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #182 on: November 15, 2018, 02:59:01 pm »
And assuming the implementation of the firmware is basically functional and the scope is easy to use and accurate and reliable, well that would be a great bargain looking at equivalent low/mid tek and keysight models.
Well.. people have been writing that for many years on this forum and it hasn't become a reality yet.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #183 on: November 15, 2018, 05:14:19 pm »
Had a quick play with one at Electronica and a chat with one of their US guys.
I didn't find anything obvuiously wrong, knobs maybe a little small, and might have been better in a colour that gave some contrast with the black.
Uart decode goes to 20Mbaud.
Screen feels a bit small once you have the MSO on
Mso probe has an acvtive head and 0.1" pin header, and they supply single wire probe leads, not paired with gnd so could have inductance issues.
US guy also thought it nuts thay they did a 2ch version.
Has HDMI out, which for some reason has option to diwnscale to VGA and 720xsomething-is there any hdmi device that would need that?
 
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Online TheSteve

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #184 on: November 15, 2018, 07:28:44 pm »
I think Rigol did a nice job with this. My fingers are crossed it is hackable because if it is I will sell my soul to the devil to get one :-)

If it's soft-upgradable then it IS hackable. Period.

We just don't know how much effort it takes (nobody has one yet!)

Unless they really wanted to make it secure and used some custom silicon, but that is extremely unlikely.
VE7FM
 

Online thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #185 on: November 15, 2018, 09:15:58 pm »
If you're buying a MSO5000 for general professional embedded work, you're going to be looking at the 4 channel 200MHz version and the app bundle... US$3400ish. (plus maybe the logic analyser cable bundle for anther $400, but most can live without having an LA in their scope these days)  And assuming the implementation of the firmware is basically functional and the scope is easy to use and accurate and reliable, well that would be a great bargain looking at equivalent low/mid tek and keysight models.

Can be related to budgets. At many companies you can get away with $900 per month budget, but not a singular $4k purchase. So month 1 get the 2 channel scope, month 2 get the bandwidth upgrade, etc.

 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #186 on: November 15, 2018, 10:46:58 pm »
I think Rigol did a nice job with this. My fingers are crossed it is hackable because if it is I will sell my soul to the devil to get one :-)

If it's soft-upgradable then it IS hackable. Period.

We just don't know how much effort it takes (nobody has one yet!)

Unless they really wanted to make it secure and used some custom silicon, but that is extremely unlikely.
They do have custom silicon, 3 chips ISTR, and they could have thrown some stuff in there to support security.
Even without that, there are ways they could make it pretty much hackproof, but Chinese software writers are unlikely to have the imagination to do it effectively.
Of course that assumes they really want to secure it, which I think they probably do.

The entry cost means a much higher barrier to entry to someone wanting to investigate seriously, with the risk of damage/bricking.

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Offline julianhigginson

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #187 on: November 16, 2018, 02:13:43 am »
Well.. people have been writing that for many years on this forum and it hasn't become a reality yet.

yeah... that's why I'm looking at it with interest, rather than running about with my credit card out.
:-)
Really, for what it's meant to be, the DS1000z isn't too bad now. it's a little annoying in a few ways, and the serial decode feature sucks. but, well, as an entry level scope, it's good.

For me, with this new unit I'm interested in the usability of the ethernet remote control & capture functions - and would want the serial decode to be way better than the 1000z implementation... those two being good, plus generally having the rest of the functionality do what it says on the box, and no major faults found with any features, this will be a good general purpose embedded scope. And looking at how they went with the DS1000z, I think that it's likely they will do it. Even if there's issues on release.
 

Offline nixfu

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #188 on: November 16, 2018, 02:33:49 am »
Personally hoping Rigol will come out with a better Spectrum Analyer that ups the performance and lowers the price at the same time to increase the $/performance to the point it’s more feasible for hobbyists to buy one. 
 

Offline scopeman

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #189 on: November 16, 2018, 04:00:22 am »
woohoo! individual channel controls!

And a single (multiplexed) cursor control knob...wah..wah..wah.

Once you have them you will never go back.

It's touch screen though. Dave never seems to get used to using his finger for menu selections but I'm sure other people will.

A little bit of a rant here but here goes.......

The problem with touch screen (and I have tried very hard to get LeCroy to really listen to me on this) is that a touch screen is nice and handy at times but for the most part for me it is a gimmick and you can not get the precision out of a touch screen (even if you use a stylus) than you can get out of a couple of cursor knobs. If I have a precise cursor measurement to make I turn the touch screen off.

I have one of their 12 bit scopes (yes it has touch they call Maui) that I love for the resolution and other reasons but I despise the one knob for the cursor, a real time waster. Having to cycle through the selections takes time and is very distracting. With two cursor knobs, a reference and a difference cursor moving and measuring between two points, especially in zoom mode even in a large field of data is easy. Couple that with direct keypad entry of the cursor position and then you have something.

I really like my old LeCroy Waverunner 6K that has two cursor knobs and two zoom controls (one for amount of zoom and one for the position of zoom) as well as individual vertical attenuation and position controls. Whoever at LeCroy designed the ergonomics for that scope was a real scope user! So if I have a lot of measurements to make and I don't have all day to do them I dig out the old scope and sacrifice the resolution.

The cost of the added digital encoder controls are virtually insignificant when you consider that these modern scopes are 10's of kilobucks. Don't get me wrong, I like the big screen but you might have to do make the scope a whole inch to a inch and a half wider to add the controls? No one is going to care about that. It looks to me that there is plenty of room to at least add the second cursor knob (two concentric controls could add both the zoom and the position) on the Rigol MSO5000 "Darth Vader" scope.

Sam
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Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #190 on: November 16, 2018, 08:13:11 am »
Recomended prices from Rigol - https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/
Simone (Batterly) offer the best price for now .

No, Batterfly has the same price as Batronix, and Batronix offers free postage in EU.
we also offer free shipment with TNT express service, please check the shipping terms.
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Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #191 on: November 16, 2018, 08:21:19 am »
Hello, we are back from the show and it was loooooong walk around.
Spent big time playing with the MSO5000 and I will do more next week at the office.
As Dave indicated, while we were in Germany, we almost sold all units in 3 days from the launch! New stock is coming already.
There are lot of consideration to do about the unit, yes the display could have been brighter but connected to HDMI is fine (and way bigger)
While I was there I spoke to several visitors and most of them wanted to see the FFT, no much request about decoding.
I agree with many of you the starting price point is not really hobby oriented, but the specs are way better than DS1054Z and if some one will hack it well then will be a great deal.
What is not clear yet is when you take the 4 channels upgrade the missing probes are not included  :palm:
I will try to understand better when the show is over and give a better answer here.
For now - ciao
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #192 on: November 16, 2018, 08:49:59 am »
Quote
I despise the one knob for the cursor, a real time waster. Having to cycle through the selections takes time and is very distracting.

And if there is only one knob, double-pressing it should toggle the cursors in an intelligent way - from memory I think R&S RTB does this but Keysight doesn't
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Offline Hydron

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #193 on: November 16, 2018, 11:52:40 am »
Regardless of whether you use it for general navigation, a touchscreen is fantastic for entering numbers/letters using an onscreen keypad. Anything where you'd otherwise scroll through a list laboriously entering 1 character at a time becomes hugely quicker, examples being custom attenuation factors, sig-gen freq/offset, FFT span/start/end, filenames for screenshots, vertical/horizontal offsets and many more.

It's not the answer for some other things, e.g. V/div setting, but is handy enough that I'd trade a lot of physical controls for this one feature.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #194 on: November 16, 2018, 12:04:57 pm »
Also things like rearranging  the positons of 16 digital inputs - this gets painful without a touchscreen
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Online TK

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #195 on: November 16, 2018, 12:23:41 pm »
but I drool in jealousy over touchscreen scopes.)
You can get the Micsig TO1104 (4-channel touch screen tablet 100MHz with serial decode & battery) for around $485 (US)
 
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #196 on: November 16, 2018, 07:25:51 pm »
I think Rigol did a nice job with this. My fingers are crossed it is hackable because if it is I will sell my soul to the devil to get one :-)

If it's soft-upgradable then it IS hackable. Period.

We just don't know how much effort it takes (nobody has one yet!)

If they have used some level of cryptography, so a specific licence key that is keyed to the hardware, then it might be much harder than the previous variants.    Maybe Rigo actually wants it to be hacked.
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #197 on: November 16, 2018, 09:38:15 pm »
Well.. people have been writing that for many years on this forum and it hasn't become a reality yet.

The DS1054Z has had several firmware updates. What bugs are left now?  :popcorn:

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #198 on: November 16, 2018, 09:48:51 pm »
Of course that assumes they really want to secure it, which I think they probably do.

Anything above the DS1054Z already requires you to open it up and use a JTAG programmer to hack it. Only the base models are hackable with a simple keygen.

That's enough of an impediment to prevent the majority of people from doing it even if the instructions are widely available.
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #199 on: November 16, 2018, 10:12:01 pm »
Anything above the DS1054Z already requires you to open it up and use a JTAG programmer to hack it.
The DS4000 series is upgraded using keygen.
 


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