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#### GlennSprigg

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##### The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« on: October 20, 2017, 01:57:18 am »
Hi Dave. I hope all is going well with your progress here !!
I've checked out all the OLDER videos, including those from 'Joe Smith'.
since your 'BM235' onwards through the '121GW' prototype......
Not being an expert like you Dave, I have always been curious about a few points.
(Just trying to understand Dave).....   If a 'Meter' has 3 decimal points in a particular
range, (like reading 4.367v), obviously this depends on the specified % accuracy.
However, for a '9999-count' meter, showing say..... '4.3674v', how does this have
any real meaning, UNLESS the devices 'accuracy' is say '.005%' ? on that scale ??
The 'Numbers' are there.... but the final digits mean little anyway ??
And in regards to the above, I would at least 'like' a Meter to have a 'Zero' button,
to compensate for Lead Resistance etc. for continuity/ohms/volts......
Keep up the great work Dave, & Hi to your family for supporting you !!

#### kalel

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2017, 02:12:47 am »
I could be wrong here as I'm just a novice.

As an example, a temperature meter may be accurate up to 1 degree, but show 0.1 degrees resolution. Even though this decimal value won't be accurate, and you can't count on "1.4" being actually "1.4", they should still be able to indicate some relative rise/drop of temperature that is less than 1 degree. With two calibrated meters measuring two spots, you could know which is warmer/colder, even at less than 1 degree.

So, a multimeter accurate to 0.1v might be able to show some relative rise/drop of voltage from 0.10 to 0.19 even though you can't count on the number being exact/truthful.

#### jm_araujo

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2017, 02:21:49 am »
The number of digits defines the precision, which is not dependent on the meter accuracy, even though both are usually confused.
The attached image shows the difference way better than I could explain.

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#### GlennSprigg

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2017, 03:06:34 am »
Thank you to both of you for your responses !!!
I understand what you are both saying, but you may be missing my point.
I 'Know' there are always 'errors', and within the 'specs' that's acceptable.
I'm questioning the 'NEED' for say '4-decimal' assumed precision, when
due to the 'acceptable' specs % error, that last digit is virtually ignored

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2017, 04:11:30 am »
One use of more precision than accuracy (or "too many digits") is for relative measurements, e.g. watching a battery discharge. You can compare the displayed values over a short time period but you can not relate them to another multimeter or the same multimeter the next day.

Btw, a 9999 count meter can not display "4.3674". You need an 50000 count meter for that.

#### GlennSprigg

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2017, 12:11:24 am »
I understand what you are saying..... especially about watching a 'Change', as opposed to an actual value.
Regarding your observation about how . . .  9999 count meter can not display "4.3674"......  Oops !!!
You are right. My 'question' was 'relative', and not precise with my examples !!!

Granted ALL that, I would STILL like a Meter that has a 'ZERO' button, for 'Resistance' measurements etc.

PURELY OUT OF INTEREST !!!!  :-).... Back in the 1970's when I was an Apprentice, I worked for the Major
power company in South Australia. (Called E.T.S.A. then). This was BEFORE anything 'digital' ever existed.
We had an ANALOG meter, that was the STANDARD for the whole STATE !!!   It was in it's OWN room, and
sat on a concrete 'Plinth', that went down to it's OWN foundation through the floor, so that NO building vibrations
ever affected it's readings, or would ever  cause any 'wear' on it's precision 'Jeweled' bearings.......
NOT to mention being temperature & humidity controlled !!!!   It was the BASIS of all State-Wide calibrations.
I WONDER where it is now ?.... Now we use atomic clocks & satellites... but there are STILL basic 'references'.

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#### GlennSprigg

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2017, 12:17:04 am »
P.S.   I would still love to hear from Dave, about his  '121GW' Multimeter......
I'm really interested in hearing about how it is going !!! xx

#### joeqsmith

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2017, 07:42:05 am »
PURELY OUT OF INTEREST !!!!  :-).... Back in the 1970's when I was an Apprentice, I worked for the Major
power company in South Australia. (Called E.T.S.A. then). This was BEFORE anything 'digital' ever existed.
We had an ANALOG meter, that was the STANDARD for the whole STATE !!!   It was in it's OWN room, and
sat on a concrete 'Plinth', that went down to it's OWN foundation through the floor, so that NO building vibrations
ever affected it's readings, or would ever  cause any 'wear' on it's precision 'Jeweled' bearings.......
NOT to mention being temperature & humidity controlled !!!!   It was the BASIS of all State-Wide calibrations.
I WONDER where it is now ?.... Now we use atomic clocks & satellites... but there are STILL basic 'references'.

Nice!  Would like to have seen that.  I imagine the meter itself would have been very large.

#### GlennSprigg

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2017, 01:27:58 am »
To 'joeqsmith'. Is that "Joe Smith" from 'YouTube', re: multimeter testing etc etc ?? (Been chatting lately).
YES, it was quite a large meter, which I 'THINK' was made by the original "AVO" meter company, but I may be wrong.
This was at least 45 years ago now!  It was about 400 x 400 x 300 mm's, and had a relatively 'low' "Ohms/Volt" as
the coil construction itself was quite large. (None of this uA stuff!!!). I'm 'digressing' here, but THEN, most circuits
required a minimum load, (old technology), to produce accurate voltage measurement results, where as TODAY, the
OPPOSITE occurs, and the meter itself would be grossly affecting the results !  (I think you understand what I mean).

If it is YOU Joe, then as per prev conversations, your expertise is in low power & some RF applications. My INITIAL
training was with very high power/current distribution networks, and I ONLY mention this so as to explain the following....

In Australia, we use different voltages than the U.S.A. for power transmission. We often start at 275-kv, and then reduce
to many others, before locally at a suburban level it is usually 11kv Delta. After that, it is transformed to 415v 3-phase,
and when a "Delta to Star" transformer is used, the 'Star-point' is 240v to each 'Phase', (unlike your 110v/120v).
Now... when a TOTALLY UNLOADED open circuit 11kv transformer is measured, we may find thousands of volts on the
Neutral, (the star point), and a mis-match of thousands of volts on the other HV legs.... all due to NON Loading !!!

These days, in a simplified comparison, the 'outputs' from a Switch-Mode Power-Supply also need a specific/minimal
LOAD, in order to work!!... Damn it.... All I'm trying to say is that SOMETIMES a 'real' load is important !!  :-) :-)

#### jack-daniels

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2017, 05:54:52 am »
To 'joeqsmith'. Is that "Joe Smith" from 'YouTube', re: multimeter testing etc etc ?? (Been chatting lately).

I think the link at the bottom of his post confirms that

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#### Maxlor

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2017, 06:59:44 pm »
Granted ALL that, I would STILL like a Meter that has a 'ZERO' button, for 'Resistance' measurements etc.
You'll be glad to hear then that it does have that feature (as do nearly all digital multimeters above the "dirt cheap" category), although it's usually called REL, for relative measurement.

#### kalel

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2017, 01:42:53 am »
Granted ALL that, I would STILL like a Meter that has a 'ZERO' button, for 'Resistance' measurements etc.
You'll be glad to hear then that it does have that feature (as do nearly all digital multimeters above the "dirt cheap" category), although it's usually called REL, for relative measurement.

Aneng AN860B+ has it too for similar or slightly more than AN8008. It is only 6000 count though.

#### Fungus

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2017, 05:41:17 am »
Aneng AN860B+ has it too for similar or slightly more than AN8008. It is only 6000 count though.

Thumbs up for AN860B+, it's my favorite meter at the moment.

There's a new meter on the block which looks a lot like an 8000 count, TrueRMS AN860B+ in an AN8008-style case (not the bouncy rubber case of the AN860B+). Feature set looks identical (although it's all mixed up on the dial so don't blame me if I missed something).

https://www.chinabrands.com/item/dropship-bside-zt301-portable-handheld-digital-multimeter-228435401-k.html?wid=1

The CAT rating of these meter is a lie, obviously, but they measure very well and for low voltage work they're amazing value for money. One could fill in until Dave finally releases his meter.

PS: If you insist on 9999 counts there's also the ZT302 but the overall feature set isn't as good:

https://www.chinabrands.com/item/dropship-bside-zt302-portable-handheld-digital-multimeter-2284314-p.html
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 05:51:00 am by Fungus »

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#### GlennSprigg

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2017, 01:31:46 am »
Thank you to everyone else who replied and explained......
I understand all you have said, and I thank you all !

Does 'Dave' have an input here, as I was basing my recommendations on his answers/progress....

#### joeqsmith

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2017, 03:58:32 am »
I saw where is posted one of the older videos for it on his second channel.   It popped up as a recommendation.  It appears to be the first meter with the molded rubber boot.   Not sure why it would be released now as it hardly seem relevant anymore.

I was hoping to see it in full production early this year.   Maybe the goal is to stir up some interest.  I had a fair number of hits on the videos I made and have to believe there is plenty of interest already.

#### joeqsmith

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2017, 02:44:11 am »
Was reading some of the new comments about this new old video.  It seems people may not be aware that all but one of the seventeen videos are now available in the 121GW Playlist on EEVBLOG2.

#### nidlaX

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2017, 07:41:00 am »
Was reading some of the new comments about this new old video.  It seems people may not be aware that all but one of the seventeen videos are now available in the 121GW Playlist on EEVBLOG2.
Yeah Joe, there seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding the 121GW for people who don't closely follow the various public threads and videos. I think it would be best if Dave made an official video soon to outline the launch timeline, including availability for Patreon subscribers / supporters and for the general public.

#### joeqsmith

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2017, 10:08:56 am »
I suspect many would not have access to the supporter's area which did not help.  Seems they have tossed out a few crumbs from time to time but then Murphy steps in.  There is always next year.  With Dave's brand on the line, I doubt they would release it until they work out all the problems.

#### GlennSprigg

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2017, 11:26:57 pm »
Yes, I hear what you are saying 'nidlaX', (and others). I guess being a 'newbie' here I'm a bit confused :-)
Prob a tad off-topic here, but I had 'gathered' from quite a few Video Posts from Dave that he DOESN"T
like to read-all/answer from the Video comments themselves, and prefers people to direct Q&A via this Blog...
I was becoming an avid supporter of his posts, and had commented many times.... but am left with the feeling
that 'he' does not want to know me ??  If that's the case... Fine :-)  Just tell me...  (I'm a big boy now :-)  ).
Failing that, (and he is just too busy these days), then us mere supporters & spreaders of his prominence,
could at least hear two to four words now and then, when the Multitude of video 'commenters' are ignored.

I'm a musician, (part-time, purely hobby), involved with the 'Folk' music scene. Our emphasis was ALWAYS
on sharing knowledge, & helping others. Never any 'Class' distinction.... some are 'Garbo's... some are lowly
tradesmen, (women), and some are doctors & psychologists.  On the day, WE just get together, and MAKE
music.  The GREAT leveler between us is this famous quote that I live by......

"May those who soar in the sky... WALK back down the Mountain, & teach those with 'Leadened' feet, to fly !!!!!
Do you understand what I mean ?  :-)

#### EEVblog

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2017, 11:34:18 pm »
Hi Dave. I hope all is going well with your progress here !!
I've checked out all the OLDER videos, including those from 'Joe Smith'.
since your 'BM235' onwards through the '121GW' prototype......
Not being an expert like you Dave, I have always been curious about a few points.
(Just trying to understand Dave).....   If a 'Meter' has 3 decimal points in a particular
range, (like reading 4.367v), obviously this depends on the specified % accuracy.
However, for a '9999-count' meter, showing say..... '4.3674v', how does this have
any real meaning, UNLESS the devices 'accuracy' is say '.005%' ? on that scale ??
The 'Numbers' are there.... but the final digits mean little anyway ??

You are talking about the usefulness of resolution on a meter.
There are many uses for high resolution which allows you to see small changes. You often don't need need accuracy in those measurements, just being able to see the changes is very useful.
For example:

#### EEVblog

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2017, 11:39:41 pm »
Yes, I hear what you are saying 'nidlaX', (and others). I guess being a 'newbie' here I'm a bit confused :-)
Prob a tad off-topic here, but I had 'gathered' from quite a few Video Posts from Dave that he DOESN"T
like to read-all/answer from the Video comments themselves, and prefers people to direct Q&A via this Blog...
I was becoming an avid supporter of his posts, and had commented many times.... but am left with the feeling
that 'he' does not want to know me ??  If that's the case... Fine :-)  Just tell me...  (I'm a big boy now :-)  ).
Failing that, (and he is just too busy these days), then us mere supporters & spreaders of his prominence,
could at least hear two to four words now and then, when the Multitude of video 'commenters' are ignored.

I get 80,000+ video views every day, 365 days a year, do you realise how many comments those video views get every day?
I can't possibly read or answer them all, but i do my best. I like to think I spend more time answering youtube video comments than most other creators of my channel size.
Also, I mostly comment on my latest videos. Answering comments on all my 1200+ previous videos isn't always practical.

As for the forum, I am the #1 poster on this forum, but there are 800+ new posts every day so I can't possible read them all, or even a large fraction of them.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 11:41:59 pm by EEVblog »

#### EEVblog

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2017, 11:44:11 pm »
Yeah Joe, there seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding the 121GW for people who don't closely follow the various public threads and videos. I think it would be best if Dave made an official video soon to outline the launch timeline, including availability for Patreon subscribers / supporters and for the general public.

When I have something to say I'll say it.
I'm working on the Kickstarter right now and have 50 units about to be shipped to me.

#### GlennSprigg

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2017, 10:20:08 pm »
Thank you Dave for your replies.... (been in damn hospital, again!!...)...
I understand now, about the 'accuracy' thing with the 'digits', being that it more about 'Changes'. :-)
I just didn't know if you preferred to read/comment on THIS forum, (when appropriate!) instead of the Videos.
It seems so many other Video-Bloggers I like are also bi-directionally supporters of you too !! and that's good.
May you, Nicole & Sagan have a great and rewarding future !!
P.S....
Has the name 'Sagan' have any ties to the late/great 'Carl Sagan' astronomer/physicist ??  (I followed him for years)

#### Brumby

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2017, 10:45:51 pm »
P.S....
Has the name 'Sagan' have any ties to the late/great 'Carl Sagan' astronomer/physicist ??  (I followed him for years)

Dave has answered the question about his boys' names a while back:

Sagan... is he named after Carl Sagan?

Yes.

Quote
Huxley... is he named after Aldous Huxley?

No, his grandfather.

#### EEVblog

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##### Re: The 'newer' EEVBLOG 121GW Multimeter
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2017, 10:55:56 pm »
Quote
Huxley... is he named after Aldous Huxley?

No, his grandfather.

I mean Aldous Huxley's grandfather BTW.

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