Author Topic: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)  (Read 8937 times)

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Offline Halcyon

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2017, 04:59:27 am »
The result is faster rollout, and push back to consumer / providers to address the pain.  If your copper is shite, the provider will need to sort it.  If the district is sub standard there may be a driver for a roll out in your area. 

Or it may be a feeder to a wireless solution....

The problem is the providers and RSPs have absolutely no control over the infrastructure. Not even Telstra. Once the copper is bought by NBN Co., Telstra wipes their hands of any issues. All they do is push faults up to NBN Co.

NBN Co. aren't being proactive enough. They do network remediation only after months and months of complaining and fault logging, yet only do the minimum amount of work required to temporarily resolve the symptom, only to have them re-appear weeks or months later. It simply isn't good enough, especially when they have a trained network engineer almost screaming down the phone, telling them what and where the problem is.

The techs who come out on-site listen to the customers, understand and genuinely want to help if they could, but are powerless to do anything about it. The normal technicians NBN Co. send out have little more than indoor 2-pair cable in the back of their vehicles. They don't have the tools or resources to go replacing copper out in the street, nor is it their job to do so. They report back to NBN Co. exactly what the issue is, I've even had techs tell them on the phone (with me witnessing the call) that the cabling in the street needs replacing and they aren't the ones that can do it.

Does NBN Co. do anything about it? Of course not! Everyone can live with the odd random drop-out and 12Mbps line sync... right? That's good enough for 2017?

Maybe by 2050 we'll have "super fast" 50Mbps! You just have to live within 20 metres of a node and supply your own copper (if they still use it to make cables then).
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 09:07:44 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline ivaylo

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2017, 07:07:50 am »
Yeah insane, 5 fiber providers in the building. Our company has moved three offices in Redwood City, California, one of them across the the street from Oracle HQ. Not only fiber is not an option, at least once a week we lose net for a couple of hours so people tether to their phones.
 

Offline madires

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2017, 09:42:15 am »
Don't NBN Co. have any SLAs? If they don't deliver ask for a refund. When the management doesn't care about happy customers they will care about money at least. >:D
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2017, 09:46:09 am »
Don't NBN Co. have any SLAs? If they don't deliver ask for a refund. When the management doesn't care about happy customers they will care about money at least. >:D

Part of the problem is that NBN Co. are the Government funded wholesaler. End-users can't really complain directly to NBN Co. (even if you do, you get some generic scripted response to call your RSP -- Retail Service Provider).

Don't want to connect to the NBN? No problems! Your only other choice is to use the 3G/LTE mobile telephone network where in Australia goes for $10 per 1 Gigabyte over your download quota.

Once an area has the NBN, you can no longer order "traditional" services like ADSL. 18 months after the "go live" date, if you still have an ADSL service, it's cut off whether you like it or not, you have no say in the matter.

Your only other real option is to approach a company who deals with their own "on-net" services, but as Dave explains in his video, they fetch several hundred to thousands of dollars per month (with a download cap) and you can only get it if they service your area.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 09:48:14 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2017, 10:00:36 am »
that NBN is useless!
cheap Internet is what we need,  |O as long as the data rate will let me or family, have HD video without buffering all is good.
I do Not need to download 2 movies in 10 minutes. ::) its the cost per GB that matters. 
Hobby of evil genius      basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2017, 10:21:46 am »
that NBN is useless!
cheap Internet is what we need,  |O as long as the data rate will let me or family, have HD video without buffering all is good.
I do Not need to download 2 movies in 10 minutes. ::) its the cost per GB that matters.

Tomorrow if Telstra turned around and said everyone can use their mobile network (even at a throttled bandwidth) and pay a fair price (let's just say for argument's sake 10c per Gigabyte (and that's being generous), NBN would be dead in the water. I'd disconnect from fixed wire tomorrow.

The mobile network as it stands is faster and more reliable than the NBN. Telcos just need to get real and make it more affordable instead of raping their users.

Even with marginal indoor coverage on my phone, I get better performance than I do on the NBN...

« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 10:34:56 am by Halcyon »
 

Online Brumby

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2017, 03:12:48 am »
Interesting....

So much so, I did a quick test - with these results:

Optus fixed cable:


Tethering through Galaxy S5 on Optus mobile:


Great result for the phone - but I'd chunk through my data allowance really quick...   :(
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2017, 12:29:53 am »
TBH I think it endangers Australian businesses.

Australian websites are slow from North America, example Silicon Chip Magazine.
I gave up waiting for a Adobe Flash page to load content. Been like that for years at their site.

If a kraken takes out your undersea fiber-ptic cables, thats another story.
 

Offline julian1

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2017, 08:06:53 am »
Australia is not very good at doing public infrastructure. You would think it would get prioritized given the economic significance, and how fast our neighbors are developing.

Online Brumby

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2017, 09:15:33 am »
As a country, Australia is pretty sparsely populated.

It is comparable in area to the mainland 48 states of the USA - but for every 2 Aussies, there are 27 Americans, so there is a huge funding difference.
 

Offline mallix

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2017, 02:30:22 am »
If you have AAPT fibre in the building you should be able to get Fibre 400 which is 400mbps for $400 a month with no data cap which is better than any NBN plan you could get and will not suffer from CVC congestion the way NBN connections can.

Same product TPG owns AAPT etc
https://www.tpg.com.au/business/internet/fibre-400
https://aapt.com.au/sites/default/files/pdf/AAPT_Business_Fibre400_Service_Schedule_Feb24_2015.pdf
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 02:39:10 am by mallix »
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2017, 08:44:13 am »
Australia is not very good at doing public infrastructure. You would think it would get prioritized given the economic significance, and how fast our neighbors are developing.

"Rant on!"

Australia used to have a telecommunications provider, in the shape of the PMG's Department, & its successor, Telecom Australia, who employed EEs & real Technicians.

As an example of what they could do, in less than 20 years, they took Wyndham, one of the most remote towns in Western Australia, from relying upon a single pair overhead phone line, to having a broadband (in 1980s terms) UHF spur off the main microwave system to Kununurra.(Which also was on the end of that single pair before the microwave system was built)

At the same time, the same organisation provided Remote Area Television (satellite fed), plus AM & FM Broadcasting.
Similar things were happening across the country.

In the meantime, City people were whingeing that they couldn't get their phones installed quick enough----to hell with this "Nation Building"crap!!

The Government heard this whingeing & set to to starve the organisation of funds & staff, & ultimately to sell it off, all in the interest of "efficiency".

The new management proceeded to dumb it down & reduce services to the minimum, as did the new competitors.

When the NBN was first proposed, there wasn't any organisation that could do the job!

The old Telecom Aust could have done it,but it was gone, with the skilled staff scattered to the four winds, hence the current "NBN Co" was born.

The powers that be still aren't big on this "Nation Building"stuff!
"Rant off!"


« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 08:47:01 am by vk6zgo »
 

Online brucehoult

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2017, 12:45:31 pm »
Australia is not very good at doing public infrastructure. You would think it would get prioritized given the economic significance, and how fast our neighbors are developing.

Apparently your politicians aren't very good.

In the last few days I've seen calls for both New Zealand and Russia to grant citizenship automatically to every Aussie member of parliament.

Why?

New Zealand normally only does that if you're descended from a NZer or you're a libertarian billionaire, or you have skills that are in demand. Most aussie politicians would fail all but the first test.

Russia just plain old likes to give away citizenship to anyone interested ... Ukrainians, washed up actors (Gérard Depardieu, Steven Seagal), Edward Snowden (eligible for it now ... don't know if he's applied).
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2017, 01:07:54 pm »
Australia is not very good at doing public infrastructure. You would think it would get prioritized given the economic significance, and how fast our neighbors are developing.

Apparently your politicians aren't very good.

In the last few days I've seen calls for both New Zealand and Russia to grant citizenship automatically to every Aussie member of parliament.
E
Why?

New Zealand normally only does that if you're descended from a NZer or you're a libertarian billionaire,t or you have skills that are in demand. Most aussie politicians would fail all but the first test.

Russia just plain old likes to give away citizenship to anyone interested ... Ukrainians, washed up actor (Gérard Depardieu, Steven Seagal), Edward Snowden (eligible for it now ... don't know if he's

It's a topical Oz/NZ "in" joke.

Several Senators recently found out  that they still had NZ citizenship although they were Naturalised Australians.

The rules are that people with "Dual Citizenship" were not eligible to serve in Parliament.

 A bit like the "Natural Born" rule for US Presidents.  ;D
 

Online Brumby

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2017, 02:57:42 pm »
The rules are that people with "Dual Citizenship" were not eligible to serve in Parliament.

Not quite right...

The rule was directed at those who had foreign citizenship which, by definition, includes dual citizenship.

There is a case before the High Court of Australia for one of those politicians where I believe the argument for his case falls back on the original intent of the rule - to avoid situations where there might be a conflict of interest and the politician does not make their best effort to look after Australia first.

In fairness, some of the politicians that have been hit with this stick were not aware of this dual citizenship - so they could not have had the bias the rule meant to exclude.


P.S. This does not mean I endorse any politician.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2017, 03:33:06 pm »
I guarantee you that this bizarre behavior is rooted in trade agreements quirks, (especially any changes that began in 1995 and after)  Hmm.. just found  links to several academic papers on this connection.. Here is one -  "The NBN and the WTO" you can read along with me-
---
Abstract:
 Tania S.L. Voon University of Melbourne - Melbourne Law School
Andrew D. Mitchell, University of Melbourne - Melbourne Law School
Date Written: November 1, 2011

Abstract
The NBN is a highly politicised project being contested domestically from a number of angles. However, the implications of Australia’s obligations under the World Trade Organization agreements have been largely unaddressed in official documentation concerning NBN Co and in the relevant literature. This paper explores some of the issues raised by the implementation of the NBN in connection with Australia’s legal obligations pursuant to the agreements of the World Trade Organization.

Keywords: WTO, NBN


Suggested Citation:

Voon, Tania S.L. and Mitchell, Andrew D., The NBN and the WTO (November 1, 2011). (2011) 61(1) Telecommunications Journal of Australia 6.1–6.7.

Available at SSRN: https://ssrn.com/abstract=2614835


Here is another:  by Marco Bronckers* and Pierre Larouche**

A Review of the WTO Regime for Telecommunications Services

Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228246340_A_Review_of_the_WTO_Regime_for_Telecommunications_Services


Here is another, also by Voon and Mitchell

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/UMelbLRS/2011/7.pdf

---
 ....but nobody will tell you about this connection. 

Instead there is a massive cover up of these deals -

They are a global campaign to eliminate real democracy and replace it with "global economic governance" of by and for multinational corporations.

So public anything has to be handicapped or rendered totally dysfunctional, and that made to look like the natural state of things. Now, we're heading into a new phase of "top down" or "negative list" or "US-style" FTAs where more often than not, public anything is simply barred outright - even in services that have not been invented yet, unless it was carved out before they were signed.. but people are never told that.

So, likely Australia has some kind of carve out where it would be applicable to this NBN but its terms require that it not compete directly with commercial providers in the areas it serves (because governments are framed as having an "unfair advantage"- however, they actually have a unfair disadvantage because they must cover areas - (or in the case of health insurance, people)- which a commercial provider would be unlikely to be able to make profitable. because its a "public good" or in Euro-speak "service of general interest" to get the concept of "public good" off the table.  (Here in America we simply never discuss this all important area at all!)

What is a carve out? See this paper.


This is likely being done because many rural areas in Australia - and this is a legitimate concern, would be insanely unprofitable to serve, having just a few customers.

The best solution as I see it, would be to either insert carve outs so broad they basically covered everything people "need" or to dump trade agreements, which attempt to supersede the logic of the public (which always knows better than lobbyists and their servants in office) A very bad thing to do.

Do it now. Nobody knows about them anyway, which tells you how even their creators know they are evil and bad for us.

Then the commercial providers could either enter the areas where they saw a potential profit (i.e. cherry pick off the profitable ones, leaving teh rest to fend for themselves)

Perhaps without a slue of international agreements controlling what they do, the government could also run its service better than it does now, even if it is at a huge loss in some areas.. with the understanding that sometimes it might be, also it could collect money and keep it if it was profitable in some instances, or fund it with tax money, when that made sense..

both approaches are likely prohibited now because of the extremely rigid inflexible FTAs.

------------

Quote from: Halcyon on 2017-08-07, 03:46:09>Quote from: madires on 2017-08-07, 03:42:15>Don't NBN Co. have any SLAs? If they don't deliver ask for a refund. When the management doesn't care about happy customers they will care about money at least. >:D

Part of the problem is that NBN Co. are the Government funded wholesaler. End-users can't really complain directly to NBN Co. (even if you do, you get some generic scripted response to call your RSP -- Retail Service Provider).

Don't want to connect to the NBN? No problems! Your only other choice is to use the 3G/LTE mobile telephone network where in Australia goes for $10 per 1 Gigabyte over your download quota.

Once an area has the NBN, you can no longer order "traditional" services like ADSL. 18 months after the "go live" date, if you still have an ADSL service, it's cut off whether you like it or not, you have no say in the matter.

Your only other real option is to approach a company who deals with their own "on-net" services, but as Dave explains in his video, they fetch several hundred to thousands of dollars per month (with a download cap) and you can only get it if they service your area.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 04:30:21 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline tintin

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2018, 10:31:38 am »
For interest:
In Sweden, we can now get 10Gbit/s for 298SEK/month ~ 46,9AUD ~ 36,8 USD  :-+



 
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2018, 10:50:58 am »
For interest:
In Sweden, we can now get 10Gbit/s for 298SEK/month ~ 46,9AUD ~ 36,8 USD  :-+
Where's the point in a domestic setting?

It's unlikely anywhere on the internet could fill a 10Gbps pipe - even the most monstrous 4k or even 8k video stream is likely to be less than 100mbit (Amazon/Netflix 4k is about 20Mbps IIRC).

If downloading to disk you also have to consider that it is faster than you can write data to permement storage (even for SSDs top out at 300-500MB/s sustained) .

Not that it prevents me from being jealous, of course.

Is that restricted to larger towns or everywhere?
 

Offline tintin

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Re: The Insanity of Internet In Australia (NBN)
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2018, 08:28:00 am »
For interest:
In Sweden, we can now get 10Gbit/s for 298SEK/month ~ 46,9AUD ~ 36,8 USD  :-+
Where's the point in a domestic setting?

It's unlikely anywhere on the internet could fill a 10Gbps pipe - even the most monstrous 4k or even 8k video stream is likely to be less than 100mbit (Amazon/Netflix 4k is about 20Mbps IIRC).

If downloading to disk you also have to consider that it is faster than you can write data to permement storage (even for SSDs top out at 300-500MB/s sustained) .

Not that it prevents me from being jealous, of course.

Is that restricted to larger towns or everywhere?

Hehe you are absolutely correct, a ordinary person will have no use for it.. Even your home router will probably not have 10Gbit/s troughput!

For now it looks like it for the larger cities.
Here is the link to the provider (hope it's ok to post):
https://www.bahnhof.se/brf/
 


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