Author Topic: Wanted: "BULLSHIT" on ...  (Read 8734 times)

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Offline 13hm13

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Wanted: "BULLSHIT" on ...
« on: November 20, 2014, 03:17:06 pm »
Dave's "BULLSHIT" blogs are well done and much needed.

Here's a "BULLSHIT" topic I'd like to see covered:
STETZERiZER Filter/Meters  (expensive EMF/"e-smog" detectors and meters).
They are "backed" by putative "research" and supported by authors/books/websites such as Toxic Electricity, Dirty Electricity. Some "research" is supported by the highly-controversial Canadian "scientist" Magda Havas.

What I want Dave to do is to rip open one of the $35 STETZERiZER Filters and see what's inside.
You can sorta get some idea of what companies like STETZER are pushing in these videos:
http://www.stetzerelectric.com/category/media/

And yeah ... these products are sold EVERYWHERE, including Amazon.com!
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 05:18:50 am by 13hm13 »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Wanted: "BULLSHIT" on ...
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2014, 03:41:02 pm »
There is a capacitor inside in the best case. Such devices are also sold as power savers  :palm:
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Wanted: "BULLSHIT" on ...
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2014, 06:58:21 pm »
What would it achieve?  :-//

The people buying those things aren't the ones watching these videos.


(img=Venn diagram with zero overlap)
 

Offline open loop

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Re: Wanted: "BULLSHIT" on ...
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2014, 11:10:27 pm »
Dave's "BULLSHIT" blogs are well done and much needed.

Here's a "BULLSHIT" topic I'd like to see covered:
STETZERiZER Filter/Meters  (expensive EMF/"e-smog" detectors and meters).
They are "backed" by putative "research" and supported by authors/books/websites such as Toxic Electricity, Dirty Electricity.

Hmm... "dirty electricity" is this anything to do with the "Lots of electronic Porn in here folks" that Dave often says when he about to do a tear down on some expensive RF gear..

Some of those links you sent me made me laugh  :-DD I get especially suspicious when products are aimed at Schools, never heard of "dirty electricity" before but my instinct says  :wtf:

Somebody please send one of those GS meters in the mailbag, would make my day when he gets it. one word.... Entertaining...
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 11:28:29 pm by open loop »
 

Offline electr_peter

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Re: Wanted: "BULLSHIT" on ...
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2014, 11:22:54 pm »
Quote
The level of these voltages is measured in GS (Graham-Stetzer) units ...
:-DD

This site is based on halftruth (some claims are true to some extent) and typical journalism FUD ("toxic", "dirty", "dangerous", "need protection", etc.). It is not new, similar sites about electricity existed before.

General public has ~zero knowledge about these things, so site is very successful. What could one expect?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 08:17:26 am by electr_peter »
 

Offline janengelbrecht

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Re: Wanted: "BULLSHIT" on ...
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2014, 11:32:21 pm »
ebasedmedicine.org/cfls-dirty-electricity-and-bad-science/

hmm

Offline coppice

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Re: Wanted: "BULLSHIT" on ...
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2014, 11:47:15 pm »
ebasedmedicine.org/cfls-dirty-electricity-and-bad-science/

hmm
That should be www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/cfls-dirty-electricity-and-bad-science/

It says in there that most lights flicker at 60Hz, which of course is wrong - its 100Hz or 120Hz. It also says CFLs run at a high frequency, and don't suffer this flicker. That's true of some, but don't most CFLs now skip the energy storage needed for this? They chop at a high frequency, but doesn't the light intensity still rise and fall at twice the mains frequency?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 11:50:16 pm by coppice »
 

Offline 13hm13

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Re: Wanted: "BULLSHIT" on ...
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2014, 09:00:41 am »
IME, using clean power does improve reliability of electronic equipment. E.g., fewer blue screens of death. etc. In the professional environs of NASA, data-acquisition, such topologies are used in signal conditioning or "line/power conditioning".

Stetzer, the maker of filter, does use the proper metrics equipment (Fluke o'scope, pwr analyzer, etc) in those demo videos. E.g.:

(Confusingly, the "GS" units, or Graham-Stetzer units, displayed on the meter are the manuf's OWN units!)

Forget about the human/health effects ... all the years of heavy drinking, smoking, overeating, heroin use, etc.,   means I'm done for anyway ...I'd rather have a/the filter device to save my delicate plugged-in electronics.

The Graham meter was actually patented by a UC Berkeley prof. (Martin H. Graham) in 1994.
http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Faculty/Homepages/graham-m.html
Links to the patent and circuit are at the above page.

Anyway ... $35/filter is too steep for me. I have experimented with Auricaps (a high-end audio X-capacitor) but results are inconclusive.
Come on folks, someone with Frequent Amazon Miles buy the whole $630.00 Stetzer kit and do a proper teardown!
 
BTW ... the "audiophile" world has been using these types of products for decades. E.g., PS Audio calls 'em Noise Harvesters...


Similar "audiophile" devices include stuff on the right-hand side of this page under "Other Items of Interest":
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-7419-ps-audio-noise-harvester-in-black-ea.aspx
Including the $200 SHUNYATA - VENOM DEFENDER, and the $40.00 AUDIOPRISM - QUIETLINE FILTER MK3, and the $350 QUANTUM - QV2 AC LINE HARMONIZER.

Save your pennies, audio-fanboyz.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 09:13:14 am by 13hm13 »
 

Offline eevblognube

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Re: Wanted: "BULLSHIT" on ...
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2015, 09:53:37 am »
I am very interested in AC line conditioning or power filtering.
I would love to see a tear-down and some oscilloscope measurements on the AC mains before and after a line conditioning product.
Furman Audio and PS Audio are a couple of big names and are pretty well regarded in the industry.
I've noticed that Cyberpower and APC both market line filtering technologies in some of their Uninterruptible Power Supply products.

It would be interesting to see what the O-scope measurements compare like, as well as the internal circuitry.  Even more fun would be to see how these units respond to Doug's capacitive discharge power supply!
I actually have been contemplating picking up an O-scope primarily to measure power supply ripple and noise as well as mains voltages.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Wanted: "BULLSHIT" on ...
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2015, 12:07:32 pm »
A proper AC line filter has some caps, a common mode choke and maybe some MOVs for overvoltage protection. If non-common noise is an issue there are two additional single chokes. That's what you'll find in the SMPSU of your TV, PC, and so on. Most low power SMPSUs don't have any line filter at all, a film cap at maximum, e.g. wall warts and CFLs. The idea is that low power SMPSUs don't create too much noise. And they need to be small and inexpensive, of course. The fancy filters mentioned above aren't much more than a film cap plugged in at random places in your home. The funny thing is, the film caps of the AC line filter in your TV or PC (assuming they are in stand-by mode if not switched on) are exactly the same.  ;)

An AC line conditioner is a transformer with several taps and some control to switch taps to keep the output voltage within a specific range. And it might have a poper AC line filter for each socket. Some line interactive UPSs offer a similar feature.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Wanted: "BULLSHIT" on ...
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2015, 12:58:39 pm »
It says in there that most lights flicker at 60Hz, which of course is wrong - its 100Hz or 120Hz. It also says CFLs run at a high frequency, and don't suffer this flicker. That's true of some, but don't most CFLs now skip the energy storage needed for this? They chop at a high frequency, but doesn't the light intensity still rise and fall at twice the mains frequency?

I took a video of an incandescent bulb vs CFL at high speed (1000fps.) The CFL, a Philips Genie 11W, flickered less than the incandescent, at 100Hz. There was a 100Hz component visible but it was less than half that of the incandescent. Since the bulb is phosphor based, and it takes some time to decay, I don't see the higher frequency (~30kHz) being visible at all.

As for skipping energy storage, unlikely, as it would probably cause the bulb to flicker too much, as it would have to re-light on every mains cycle...
 

Offline mux

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Re: Wanted: "BULLSHIT" on ...
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2015, 01:14:58 pm »
The more expensive cold-cathode lights do actually reignite themselves at something like 1000-2000Hz. They are rare though, as it was just a small fad with manufacturers just before LEDs became economical.

Most CFLs and standard fluorescent tubes are still the ones that need heating up and have a continuous plasma.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Wanted: "BULLSHIT" on ...
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2015, 02:12:14 pm »
The problem with debunking this stuff is that they just change the product names and start over again as soon as people get onto them.

"Yes, that OTHER guy's equipment was junk, but mine is different. Mine uses the latest vacuum-filled magic space dust technology! (As used by the ancient Samoans to build their pyramids!!)"

 

Offline eevblognube

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Re: Wanted: "BULLSHIT" on ...
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2015, 09:33:28 pm »
The problem with debunking this stuff is that they just change the product names and start over again as soon as people get onto them.

"Yes, that OTHER guy's equipment was junk, but mine is different. Mine uses the latest vacuum-filled magic space dust technology! (As used by the ancient Samoans to build their pyramids!!)"

Perhaps for many providers, but I think it is very feasible to test some major manufacturer's products.  Cyberpower, APC, Furman, and PS Audio are pretty big names.  I've been thinking of buying a scope, using an improvised differential probing technique, and testing some mains voltages (possibly with the ground floating) to see some real results myself.  Funnily enough, mains purity as well as power supply ripple and noise are two of the few things I would use a scope for.  It is kindof disgusting to see how high differential probes are priced.  Thousands of dollars for a miserable probe?  Give me a break!

In any case, I would consider even sending Dave some equipment if he wanted to test it.  I think everybody interested in electronics would like to see some real-world measurements on mains voltages and how certain equipment might have an effect.  Also, everybody loves to see some marketing claims confirmed or debunked!
 

Offline SL4P

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Re: Wanted: "BULLSHIT" on ...
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2015, 10:43:03 pm »
General public has ~zero knowledge about these things, so site is very successful. What could one expect?

This is probably more alarming than the BS products!

Our administration, educators and corporates are entirely happy with the general population knowing as little as possible about how or why things work. 
We can bend the system any way we want to reduce administrative effort.
It interferes with sales and profitability.
Don't ask a question if you aren't willing to listen to the answer.
 


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