New Complete Hardware+Software Kit for C Cortex-M Programming

[neslekkim]

I will fix the page. This is a new site (we are not new, we have been around since 1994 - this incarnation of the website is new :-) )

The debugger requires a separate license, although you can use it during the 45 day demo period.

I will consider making it limited functioning. Let me talk to the team.

Ok, so the Jumpstart kit - NC, does not have debugger option either, even if this is written in the description:

Everything you need to start programming the powerful Cortex®-M in C immediately:

STM32 Cortex-M0 Nucleo board from ST with ST-LINK/V2 debug pod.
Arduino Compatible Education (ACE™) Shield: LED matrix, OLED display, RTC, micro-SD cartridge, crypto-chip (US only), etc.
JumpStart C for Cortex®-M compiler license with debugger and the new JumpStart API Libraries
C for Everyone (book) complete textbook-style tutorial reference on C. Unless you are a C Wizard, there is probably information in here that you have not yet encountered.
Step-by-step tutorials and example programs

[richardman]

I will fix the page. This is a new site (we are not new, we have been around since 1994 - this incarnation of the website is new :-) )

The debugger requires a separate license, although you can use it during the 45 day demo period.

I will consider making it limited functioning. Let me talk to the team.

Ok, so the Jumpstart kit - NC, does not have debugger option either, even if this is written in the description:

Everything you need to start programming the powerful Cortex®-M in C immediately:

STM32 Cortex-M0 Nucleo board from ST with ST-LINK/V2 debug pod.
Arduino Compatible Education (ACE™) Shield: LED matrix, OLED display, RTC, micro-SD cartridge, crypto-chip (US only), etc.
JumpStart C for Cortex®-M compiler license with debugger and the new JumpStart API Libraries
C for Everyone (book) complete textbook-style tutorial reference on C. Unless you are a C Wizard, there is probably information in here that you have not yet encountered.
Step-by-step tutorials and example programs

Ooops. Sorry, will fix. That description was written before the latest decision. Thanks for catching it.

[zapta]

I can't see how this product beats lpcxpresso (free IDE, free compiler, free debugger support, single package install, supported by mbed project export, runs on all three OSs).

[richardman]

I can't see how this product beats lpcxpresso (free IDE, free compiler, free debugger support, single package install, supported by mbed project export, runs on all three OSs).

Our goal is not to necessarily get the hobbyist market. The hobbyists are a "foot in the door". Our targets are the professional engineers who will not touch the cloud compiler (and don't necessarily want to pay $8000 for a commercial license), and the educational institutions who want 20+ seats licenses.

I find it amusing that in these 7+ pages, there have been quite a bit of suggestions and criticisms thrown (plus some encouragements, THANK YOU!). I wonder how long someone from other commercial vendors would last, if they were to promote their products here 

[zapta]

Our goal is not to necessarily get the hobbyist market. The hobbyists are a "foot in the door". Our targets are the professional engineers who will not touch the cloud compiler (and don't necessarily want to pay $8000 for a commercial license), and the educational institutions who want 20+ seats licenses.

Lpcxpresso isn't a cloud compiler. It's software you run on your own computer. Mbed allows to export projects in a format that lpcxpresso can seamlessly import.

(Not saying that your product isn't good, just comparing the options)

[nctnico]

Our goal is not to necessarily get the hobbyist market. The hobbyists are a "foot in the door". Our targets are the professional engineers
...
I wonder how long someone from other commercial vendors would last, if they were to promote their products here 

Well we have been very nice to you. So far... 
Biggest problem I see is compatibility with third party libraries (those questions have been left unanswered). Just look at how much is available for Arduino ecosystem. Maybe that is not your target audience but over the past decades I have seen a steadily growth in complexity of embedded software and the need to use third party libraries. As a developer you can't sit on an island and write a USB, security or network stack from scratch. I also doubt professional engineers will be impressed by having a library for flipping port pins or sending characters through a UART. They already have those libraries in a portable form which often date back several decades. A more professional developer will also want support for makefile driven builds for automated nightly builds, unit testing, regression testing, integration with version control systems, etc.
I see your market for novices and in an educational setting where someone wants a hassle free install and click & go from there.

[ez24]

I find it amusing that in these 7+ pages, there have been quite a bit of suggestions and criticisms thrown (plus some encouragements, THANK YOU!). I wonder how long someone from other commercial vendors would last, if they were to promote their products here 

What I find amusing is how nice people have been.  Usually to this sort of thing you would be ripped apart.  I thought about warning you on day one but did not.
So consider it a compliment because of your treatment on this forum.  You have to have thick skin to survive here because no one holds their punches.

Also I think some readers are forgetting that your product includes hardware, software, AND a book for $99.  The book seems to elude a lot of folks.  Just too bad for me that your market is NOT for hobbyists.

[miguelvp]

One thing that is not really stated.

Is the book an ebook? if so it should be made clear that you don't get a physical book.

[Mr.B]

I will fix the page. This is a new site (we are not new, we have been around since 1994 - this incarnation of the website is new :-) )

The debugger requires a separate license, although you can use it during the 45 day demo period.

I will consider making it limited functioning. Let me talk to the team.

Ok, so the Jumpstart kit - NC, does not have debugger option either, even if this is written in the description:

Everything you need to start programming the powerful Cortex®-M in C immediately:

STM32 Cortex-M0 Nucleo board from ST with ST-LINK/V2 debug pod.
Arduino Compatible Education (ACE™) Shield: LED matrix, OLED display, RTC, micro-SD cartridge, crypto-chip (US only), etc.
JumpStart C for Cortex®-M compiler license with debugger and the new JumpStart API Libraries
C for Everyone (book) complete textbook-style tutorial reference on C. Unless you are a C Wizard, there is probably information in here that you have not yet encountered.
Step-by-step tutorials and example programs

Ooops. Sorry, will fix. That description was written before the latest decision. Thanks for catching it.

I take issue with this Richard.
I purchased the product in good faith last week and now you are changing the rules...

[richardman]

Thank you again for your comments. They have been invaluable.

re: Libraries
Sorry, must have missed that question. Generally speaking, most code can be compiled using our compiler without effort. So if you take generic stack like chanFS, or uIP, usually if there is any problems, just a few minor changes and you are good. Even FreeRTOS have been ported easily. It's even easier with Cortex-M since the interrupt handler no longer requires special syntax. That used to be a minor issue, having to change interrupt handler declaration syntax.

The problem comes in if the code has been written with GCC extension. Or if the build structure is very complex, in which case, the developer would have multi-level makefiles, but they are usually tool-chain specific. So it's one of those: if you know how to navigate the file structures, it's easy - it's easy thing.

re: makefile
We do support makefiles. In fact, many of our customers use IDE to develop their code, and give factory floors the makefiles etc. for production work.

re: hobbyists
I did not say we don't cater to hobbyists. Clearly the JumpStart MicroBox is excellent for hobbyists who want a bit more than Arduino et. al.

re: PRO already have stacks of library code
Yes sure, they have a lot of stuff, but the fact is that Cortex-M is complex to get started. There are boatloads of engineers still using AVR or PIC etc. because it takes 3 lines of IO register to get an I2C going. This is why ARM has mbed, and vendors have visual tools and board support package. May be not everyone needs them but the need for them in total are great indeed. Otherwise, those solutions would not have existed.

Why do you think Freescale/Motoroal bought Metrowerks, ARM bought Keil, and NXP bought Code Red? Software is one of the major keys, and silicon vendors know it. If they have their choice, they would lock their users totally in their ecosystems, like some vendors do already. The beauty of the Cortex-M is the multitude of choices available.

Our space is the vast margin between "GCC" and "IAR/Keil", and I do not see any reasons to believe that this space does not exist.

re: ebook vs. book
The physical book will also be available on AMZN, but it will be additional cost option. I will make that clear on the website.

Regards,

[richardman]

I will fix the page. This is a new site (we are not new, we have been around since 1994 - this incarnation of the website is new :-) )

The debugger requires a separate license, although you can use it during the 45 day demo period.

I will consider making it limited functioning. Let me talk to the team.

Ok, so the Jumpstart kit - NC, does not have debugger option either, even if this is written in the description:

Everything you need to start programming the powerful Cortex®-M in C immediately:

STM32 Cortex-M0 Nucleo board from ST with ST-LINK/V2 debug pod.
Arduino Compatible Education (ACE™) Shield: LED matrix, OLED display, RTC, micro-SD cartridge, crypto-chip (US only), etc.
JumpStart C for Cortex®-M compiler license with debugger and the new JumpStart API Libraries
C for Everyone (book) complete textbook-style tutorial reference on C. Unless you are a C Wizard, there is probably information in here that you have not yet encountered.
Step-by-step tutorials and example programs

Ooops. Sorry, will fix. That description was written before the latest decision. Thanks for catching it.

I take issue with this Richard.
I purchased the product in good faith last week and now you are changing the rules...

Dear Mr. B, the rule was decided a while ago, the web person copied some old stuff when he populated the website. However, if this is an issue for you, we will fix it for you if you did make the purchase based on that piece of information.

I will email you separately. Don't worry, we take care of our customers.

[Mr.B]

I made the purchase decision based on all the information contained on your website and information from your very first post...

STM32 Cortex-M0 Nucleo board from ST with ST-LINK/V2 debug pod.
Arduino Compatible Education (ACE™) Shield: LED matrix, OLED display, RTC, micro-SD cartridge, crypto-chip (US only), etc.
JumpStart C for Cortex®-M compiler license with debugger and the new JumpStart API Libraries
"C for Everyone - The JumpStart Guide to C"  (book) a complete tutorial textbook-style reference to C. Unless you are a C Wizard, there is probably information in here that you have not yet encountered.
Step-by-step tutorials and example programs
$99, volume discount available

[richardman]

I made the purchase decision based on all the information contained on your website and information from your very first post...

Not a problem. Email sent.

[Mr.B]

Thank you Richard.

[ez24]

Hi

Just to be clear.  The $99 special does NOT include the printed book? 

How about the PDF book?

Because there was an error in the ad in the first post?

Also this is a little confusing:

Native debugger, integrated with the IDE.
Integrated JumpStart Debugger (separate license required to enable full functionality)

Does this mean there are two debuggers and if so are they used together?

thanks

[richardman]

Hi

Just to be clear.  The $99 special does NOT include the printed book? 

How about the PDF book?

Because there was an error in the ad in the first post?

Also this is a little confusing:

Native debugger, integrated with the IDE.
Integrated JumpStart Debugger (separate license required to enable full functionality)

Does this mean there are two debuggers and if so are they used together?

thanks

re: book
NO printed book. If you order now, you get a beta-PDF. By end of October, we will send you an ebook and only ebook will be delivered afterward.

Printed book will be an option from AMZN later

re: debugger
The debugger is built-in/integrated with the IDE. However, to get full functionality, you need a separate license.

Currently 2015/10/13, the debugger is fully functional within 45 days, then stop functioning if you do not have a debugger license.

HOWEVER, it's very likely that we will change the policy to LIMITED functionality (e.g. 2 breakpoints and no I/O View) so that the debugger is useful even if you do not have a debugger license.

I will make an announcement when we are 100% sure.

[zapta]

HOWEVER, it's very likely that we will change the policy to LIMITED functionality (e.g. 2 breakpoints and no I/O View)

As this thread progresses and more details are revealed, this package looks less and less appealing

[miguelvp]

HOWEVER, it's very likely that we will change the policy to LIMITED functionality (e.g. 2 breakpoints and no I/O View)

As this thread progresses and more details are revealed, this package looks less and less appealing

Yeah, it was good if it had the book and the full environment.

There are many learn C books out there as for dev kits with full blown compilers and hardware debug you can't beat $10 for a Cortex M3
http://www.cypress.com/documentation/development-kitsboards/cy8ckit-059-psoc-5lp-prototyping-kit

Or the Pioneer kit with the PSoC4 but with full hardware debug thanks to the 5LP on the board.

And no restriction for commercial applications either.

Otherwise you can use Keil uVision with the 32K memory limit for no commercial use and that's free. And they support the Cypress chips as well.

[richardman]

HOWEVER, it's very likely that we will change the policy to LIMITED functionality (e.g. 2 breakpoints and no I/O View)

As this thread progresses and more details are revealed, this package looks less and less appealing

Ha ha, well, we do not expect to gain 100% of the market share 

[richardman]

I am sure if we sell it for $1 with full everything, there will be criticism as well 

[miguelvp]

I am sure if we sell it for $1 with full everything, there will be criticism as well 

No one complained when it was $99 for everything described, make the book an ebook and take out the debugger, it kind of makes it less appealing.

What the ebook means to me is the requirement of a dual display.

Since this is targeted to people learning C for Arm Cortex-M microcontrollers, lacking a full blown debugger makes it a sub-par product compared to what is out there.

As for examples, the PSoC processors have the 100 projects in 100 days with lots of examples and all for free. Same with Arduino, Beaglebone, etc...

So that leaves the content of the book and the IDE.

If the IDE is harder to use than Eclipse (which is pretty bad in comparison to others) and hopefully not as atrocious as Multi from GHS then that might have value, but I find Cypress Creator and Keil uVision easy to use. Only the first one of those (Creator) is fully free without the 32K limitation.

Even Visual Studio Community can be used with Arm Processors (not the Cortex-M but the bigger chips) Also it can target STM32, so your IDE better be the ducks guts.

So that leaves the book, so even if it was the best C book for ARM microcontrollers without the debuggers the whole thing fails as far as a beginner is concerned.

Myself I had no interest to pick the kit up because I already know C. But it did look interesting for someone starting up, since $99 is a good price for that you stated on the OP, but you keep on cutting things that are not trivial for someone starting up, so if someone asked me for a recommendation on what to use to start up, I don't think it would be your offer.

Even if I learned to debug using a couple of LEDs on the boards to tell me what the program (68000) was doing using a cross assembler and burning the program in to an EPROM without hardware debug I wouldn't recommend that for someone nowadays.

[richardman]

Points taken. Again, we do not aiming for "100% acceptance". Obviously our strength are not sufficient to convince you. That's OK. Choices are good.

[ez24]

I am sure if we sell it for $1 with full everything, there will be criticism as well 

Probably, everyone is just being honest.

Richardman - I would like to make a suggestion.  Contact a moderator and ask that this whole post be deleted.  This whole thing can disappear with a click.

The reason is if someone came from Google to the first post and see that a book (and no mention of pdf) is included and went to your site and did not read the fine print and ordered it, they would not get what they expected.  I think this would reflect badly on this forum.

Once you get it 100% come back and make a new post.  I suggest come up with a eevblog discount or special.  Do this via PM only.  Make sure someone has to be member and PM you to get a discount code.  FYI  Tequipment offers a 6% discount via a code that members PM to each other.  I think your company is small enough and you are active enough to do this via direct PM.

If you do not delete this subject, it is likely to get ugly and this will in the end hurt you.  I have seen this happen before.  So bale out now.

So for the next version:
Make it clear that there is/is not a pdf book.
Clear up the confusion on the debugger.
Address any other questions that have come up so far.

Another suggestion if you do as I suggest above.  Offer a full rebate for a review on this forum.  I bet you could find someone to judge the review to see if it is worth the price of the product.  You cannot just blindly make an offer like this because someone will say "ok" and then ask for their money.  I bet there would be some volunteers to judge.  Do not expect Dave to do the review, this does not fit into his business model.

[miguelvp]

FWIW I was never your target so there was never a need to convince me personally.

However I do want to convince you that without the debugger your product misses your initial target.

Furthermore, the OP still states:

JumpStart C for Cortex®-M compiler license with debugger and the new JumpStart API Libraries
"C for Everyone - The JumpStart Guide to C"  (book) a complete tutorial textbook-style reference to C. Unless you are a C Wizard, there is probably information in here that you have not yet encountered.

Both on the text description and on the embedded image:

Software: The JumpStart C compiler includes an easy to use, fast Integrated Development Environment (IDE) and a friendly debugger.
...
Book: A copy of the book ....

You should change the OP both in text and image to take out the debugger mentions and change the word Book for eBook because that's not longer the case. False advertising is not the way to go around doing business.

[richardman]

Thanks for the alert. I am used to forum software that won't let you modify a post after X days. Any case, modified the OP.