General > Buy/Sell/Wanted

PAYPAL / EBAY FRAUD: item not received and no refund from paypal - please help!

(1/53) > >>

ecom.gp:
Hello everyone.
I’ve been following the EEVblog and this forum for a very long time and now I’m joining the community to share my experience (a bad one unfortunately) and ask for your help and advices.
On June 09, 2015 I won the following auction for an Agilent 33250A waveform generator:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221790550257

As you can see from the auction page, the seller accepts paypal and the purchase is claimed to be covered by the ebay/paypal buyer protection program.
Everyone should be able to see the BIG BOLD CLAIM: “ebay MONEY BACK GUARANTEE - Get the item you ordered or get your money back. Covers your purchase price and original shipping”.
So far so good. On 11 June, 2015 I send the payment and on 16.06.2015 the seller marks the item as shipped providing the DHL tracking number (961101085832).
To be clear I paid 22EUR for a DHL Paket International, which covers transport loss or damage up to 500EUR and typically delivers in my country in no more than four working days.
As I know this shipping service and I’m used to see the parcels moving quickly within the DHL network you will probably understand my surprise for not seeing any progress at all in the tracking system during the following week.

I don’t want to bore you with all the details so I’ll go straight to the point.
I asked the seller for an explanation many and many times and all I was able to get was a request to be patient and wait more time.
On July 2nd, tired of waiting, I filed a paypal dispute which was then escalated to a claim when DHL told me that they had no track of the parcel.
At this point, many of you will probably guess the outcome of the deep and careful paypal investigation. here it is, Paypal decided in favor of the seller and the claim was closed without any refund. What you won’t probably guess is the explanation given for such a resolution. Well, this is what popped up in my mailbox a few hours ago:

“Your seller has provided shipment tracking information in response to your claim.
We used the shipping company's online tracking service and found that it confirms delivery of the merchandise.
As a result, this case has been closed. We're happy we were able to help you resolve this issue.”

Delivery of merchandise. Did you read that?

Now please go the DHL tracking page and tell me if you see anything about delivery.
http://nolp.dhl.de/nextt-online-public/set_identcodes.do?lang=en&idc=961101085832



The parcel is stuck on “The shipment has been posted by the sender at the retail outlet” since June 16.
Basically, it never left the DHL store.
How can they have a proof of delivery?
It’s clearly an error. There’s no other explanation.
That’s what I thought while reading the notification, but then I decided to call paypal and they managed to surprise me even further.

After waiting 10 minutes at the phone for a further investigation the answer was that they decided in favor of the seller because she was able to provide proof of shipment to my exact address.
Then the conversation evolved pretty much this way:
ME: I can create a shipping label in less than 5 minutes. How can you be sure that the seller really shipped the parcel? And how can you say that it’s been delivered when the tracking system shows no progress at all?
PAYPAL: That’s an automatically generated mail. We have our way to check the shipment.
ME: Can I have a copy of what you call proof of shipment?
PAYPAL: No, that’s not possible.
ME: Never mind. I paid for the item, not for the proof of shipment. As you can see, the parcel has not been received so I’m covered by the buyer protection program. Right?
PAYPAL: I’m sorry. The seller provided proof of shipment so there’s nothing we can do.
ME: What? And what about the protection program?
PAYPAL: I’m sorry, you can keep saying that, but there’s nothing we can do. We can’t get the money back from the seller.
And the conversation ended somehow…

How is all this even possible? Can they really do this?
Can PayPal lie about the proof of delivery and refuse to refund a frauded buyer while the whole web is filled with their claims regarding the protection program and the money-back guarantee?

I have also spent a little bit of time re-reading the PayPal user agreement and I couldn’t find anything to justify such a resolution.
There is however an interesting claim in section 13.4

https://www.paypal.com/it/webapps/mpp/security/security-protection

13.4 How much coverage do I get with PayPal Buyer Protection?
a) If PayPal determines a Claim in your favor, PayPal will reimburse you the full purchase price of the item and original postage costs only.
b) PayPal will not reimburse you for the postage costs you incur to return a SNAD item to the seller or another party PayPal specifies.
If the seller presents evidence that they delivered the goods to your address, PayPal may find in favor of the seller even if you did not receive the goods. See section 13.10 for other protection you may be entitled to.

The text in bold is the most interesting part and unless I’m horribly wrong here it seems to state that an INR (Item Not Received) claim should be closed in favor of the buyer unless the seller is able to prove that the item was delivered to the buyer’s address.

Clearly, this is not the case. Paypal is lying about the proof of delivery because the parcel never left the DHL store.
Any idea? What should I do now? I know this is not a huge amount of money but things like this can really destroy a hobby and your trust.
I look forward to any comment or advice.

In the meantime, I can’t keep myself from reading over and over again the following claim found on paypal homepage:
“We've got your back. Shop with peace of mind, your eligible purchase is protected by us.
If it doesn’t show up or shows up different than described, we’ll send you a refund and help wrap things up with the seller”.

Yes, they really got my back!

Ebay order details


Paypal dispute


Paypal notification


Chat session with ebay
Erjon 17:29:12
How can I help you?

flash.pc 17:30:29
I'm interested in buying an item and would like to know how the protection program really works.

flash.pc 17:31:09
Assuming that I pay with paypal and nothing is received, how are you going to help me?

Erjon 17:33:39
If you pay with paypal you are covered by the protection program for 180 days since the date of purchase. Even if the seller ships the item and you don't receive it.

Erjon 17:33:40
The seller is responsible for delivering the item according to the conditions stated in the auction. The shipping service should be reliable, bla bla bla...

flash.pc 17:34:39
So I am guaranteed to receive the item. Let's say that the item is not delivered. Do you refund the whole amount?

Erjon 17:36:51
After you file a NRI (not received item) complaint, paypal starts an investigation to see whether or not the item has been delivered to the buyer's address? If it is not delivered, they will refund the whole payment.

flash.pc 17:38:10
Perfect. Now I'm much more relieved.

Erjon 17:39:14
Anything else I can help you with?

flash.pc 17:40:13
Yes, sure. I'd like to know why you refused to refund my payment for the item #221790550257 when even DHL confirmed that the parcel never left the country of origin.

Erjon 17:41:55
Ti chiedo gentilmente un attimo che verifico.
Please hold on while I check that.

Erjon 17:46:13
You can open a dispute by going here and clicking there. Bla bla bla...

flash.pc 17:48:34
I don't need you to show me how to open a dispute. I already did that and the case has been closed in favor of the seller regardless of the user agreement and everything you told me earlier. Please note that the full story has been reported in many public places and even the transcription of this chat will be available at the following address: http://goo.gl/xlHIoW

flash.pc 17:49:59
Can you hand this to a supervisor?

Erjon 17:51:33
My answers are perfectly consistent with the rules of this platform.

flash.pc 17:54:08
I know that, but your behavior and decisions are not.

Erjon 17:58:55
The dispute wasn't opened on ebay. You filed the complaint on paypal so you should talk to them.

flash.pc 18:03:22
When you try to open a NRI dispute you are automatically redirected to your paypal account. You know that. I've already contacted paypal and they said that I lost the dispute because the seller was able to provide a valid proof of shipment. This is obviously in contrast with what you just told be about the protection program.

System18:12:03
The chat session is being wrapped up.

System18:12:03
The chat session has ended.

System18:12:03
This chat was on 08/04/2015. All times in the above transcript are in the following time zone: (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time : Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London

nctnico:
Why did you call Paypal? Just open an online claim stating the item hasn't arrived.

bitseeker:
And contact DHL to get their confirmation on the receipt of the package (or lack thereof).

ecom.gp:

--- Quote from: bitseeker on July 30, 2015, 06:46:00 pm ---And contact DHL to get their confirmation on the receipt of the package (or lack thereof).

--- End quote ---

They have no track of the package and told me to ask the seller for an investigation, which of course I did. No cooperation unfortunately.

Fraser:
I hope your PayPal account is drawn on your credit card. Raise a dispute with the credit card company against PayPal. reason...... Non delivery of product.
Aurora

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
Go to full version