SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting

[revenue_controls]

OK...way over my head...

[ebastler]

I think even if you try to check this code it's fitting too
8479 8970 00
Automated electronic component placement machines of a kind used solely or principally for the manufacture of printed circuit assemblies
https://www.taricsupport.com/nomenclatuur/8479897000.html

That source seems to be incorrect. I would recommend that you refer to the official US government source:
https://hts.usitc.gov/?query=8479.89.92

While this class of equipment is normally tariff-free, there is a hard-to-see reference in the "general" duty column to code 9903.88.01, which states the 25% tariff for products from China.

[mrpackethead]

I do not think smallsmt was trying to get around the tariff issue (??), I just think the source of their number is incorrect.

They had a note on their web site that said they knew how to avoid the Tarif. When quizzed SmallSMT replied that they didn’t want to spoil it for others by saying what code they were going to use.  You can draw your own conclusions as to what SmallSMT was trying to acheice.

The machines might be awesome but all the odd things wrapped around SmallSMTs operations means I could never consider purchasing from them. 
I hope things work out well for revenue controls. 

[revenue_controls]

I'm sure this will not happen in the future. Lets move on to the equipment...

I am currently bolting the machine on to the base and going through the accessories. I will see the software for the first time later tonight.
So far I am imprest with the build quality of the machine!

[TJ232]

"mrpackethead" can you please let at least this SmallSMT thread going on without hijack it again ?

Can we please keep this thread on the subject and move on please? Enough about the Customs Tariffs, Thank you.

I really appreciate "revenue_controls" willingness to share with us his full experience about.
I also consider to buy a machine that size to fit in the Office but until now despite the fact that on paper SmallSMT PNP's are looking good the lack of any detailed information's and reviews and the small user base about kept us away from this brand.

Another drawback for us, been in EU, is the way how the machines can be ordered and payments are done. I still don't understand why Michael doesn't sell the machines from inside the EU as his company is located in Germany. This thing will greatly boost trust in his products and will quickly bring more customers. Neoden has made the move, they have already a foot in EU, thru a NL Company: https://www.neodentech.eu/contents/en-uk/contactus.html

I do not think smallsmt was trying to get around the tariff issue (??), I just think the source of their number is incorrect.

They had a note on their web site that said they knew how to avoid the Tarif. When quizzed SmallSMT replied that they didn’t want to spoil it for others by saying what code they were going to use.  You can draw your own conclusions as to what SmallSMT was trying to acheice.

The machines might be awesome but all the odd things wrapped around SmallSMTs operations means I could never consider purchasing from them. 
I hope things work out well for revenue controls.

[Kjelt]

Another drawback for us, been in EU, is the way how the machines can be ordered and payments are done. I still don't understand why Michael doesn't sell the machines from inside the EU as his company is located in Germany. This thing will greatly boost trust in his products and will quickly bring more customers.

That is something I am curious about also.
Up to now it sounds to me like Michael is just a single sales person based in Germany not really a "company" but I can be mistaken.
If only he would stock repair supplies and do service work to the machines that would be a great added value service to customers IMO, so far I don't hear anything related to this.
So if you are a company and bought a machine and something breaks down they refer you to the far east, swap modules or how does this work?

Neoden has made the move, they have already a foot in EU, thru a NL Company: https://www.neodentech.eu/contents/en-uk/contactus.html

Not sure about this, I think it is only a distributor, a saleschannel, without the service or spare parts. So you only pay more without the benefits, but I might be mistaken.
The sale itself is actually IMO the least of a companies worries when buying such a machine.
Reliability, quick local service, spare parts, repairs and get back up and running within 24 hours is the important thing if your business depends on the output.

[SMTech]

You would expect a distributor to train both its sales and service staff to be familiar with the machine as well as to have better lines of communication with the manufacturer than you. Theoretically getting you better service and the ability to communicate in your own language. Spares might be a stretch tho'. That said quite a few "distributors" of Chinese kit seem to have odd arrangements, exclusivity seems by no means a given (and normally you expect something resembling it). In the UK I have had a rep for a manufacturer of much more expensive machines say they have sold a customer a Neoden, the fact they can do this appears nowhere on their website although they do list other Chinese kit like BGA rework stations. In that instance the stations they sell don't quite line up with the manufacturers website or Ali listings and several other companies also claim to "distribute"at either the national or continental level, the markup seems large too (like double) compared to Ali.

[ebastler]

Can we please keep this thread on the subject and move on please? Enough about the Customs Tariffs, Thank you.
[...]
Another drawback for us, been in EU, is the way how the machines can be ordered and payments are done. I still don't understand why Michael doesn't sell the machines from inside the EU as his company is located in Germany. This thing will greatly boost trust in his products and will quickly bring more customers.

You seem a bit inconsistent here. On one hand, you are concerned about the inconvenience of importing the machines yourself. On the other hand, you don't want tariffs discussed in this thread -- which are a major part of this inconvenience, especially in countries which apply significant tariffs. What's up?

Why doesn't Michael set up a company in Germany which acts as the importer and distributor? I would assume that he wants to avoid the significant overhead and liability which would come with that. That company would be responsible for paying the correct import duties, guaranteeing CE compliance, registering with the WEEE electronic waste system, providing warranty, accepting product returns if the end customer is a consumer (which should be rare), and maybe most significantly taking on liability for product safety.

Michael would incur extra labor cost, insurance premiums, warranty accruals, and probably the cost of additional safety and compliance testing (if he still wants to sleep well). As a customer, how much would you be willing to pay extra for the convenience of dealing with a European vendor?

[OwO]

Well distributors always add a fairly sizable markup, that's the norm. I do have a problem with exclusivity though because that's the source of evil of most western distributors IMO. I get that distributors add value, but I also should be able to buy direct from manufacturer at a price decided by the manufacturer without contractual obligations with distributors messing with how the manufacturer can price their goods.

[Kjelt]

Well distributors always add a fairly sizable markup, that's the norm.

If they add value and as SMTech states have trained staff to assist with problems and brings quick solutions that would be normal and not a big problem.
In the past (not with P&P machines) I have experienced that many distributors do not have such trained personnel.
They were a small time two or three man company , busy selling and ordering, shoving boxes and their technical knowledge was limited.
In those cases it adds no value IMO.

[SMTech]

It can cause real friction when there is overlap tho',
"how am I supposed to sell anything when you undercut me?"
"you sold them this unit and now they expect me to support them for nothing"
etc.

The exclusivity, or appearance of it, is a way for the distributor and manufacturer alike to avoid these arguments as they both have clear roles.

With the products we manufacture and sell we far prefer not to have to deal with the end user, dealing with the end user is expensive that what a distributor & their engineers get their cut for (but not 100% markup). On the rare occasions we do sell direct, they get the RRP that trade users are quite free to undercut, however we don't do true exclusivity, any engineering / service business in our niche sector even if they deal with our rivals is quite free to buy our kit. End users can be very demanding, client facing roles require an entire different skillset to manufacture, far better to let those best placed and local deal with it.

[mrpackethead]

You seem a bit inconsistent here. On one hand, you are concerned about the inconvenience of importing the machines yourself. On the other hand, you don't want tariffs discussed in this thread -- which are a major part of this inconvenience, especially in countries which apply significant tariffs. What's up?

Why doesn't Michael set up a company in Germany which acts as the importer and distributor? I would assume that he wants to avoid the significant overhead and liability which would come with that. That company would be responsible for paying the correct import duties, guaranteeing CE compliance, registering with the WEEE electronic waste system, providing warranty, accepting product returns if the end customer is a consumer (which should be rare), and maybe most significantly taking on liability for product safety.

Michael would incur extra labor cost, insurance premiums, warranty accruals, and probably the cost of additional safety and compliance testing (if he still wants to sleep well). As a customer, how much would you be willing to pay extra for the convenience of dealing with a European vendor?

One of the best things about eevblog is that as a community we are really good at keeping each other informed of the good, bad and ugly.   We collectively pour lots of 'light' onto everything,.    How many busted videos has Dave done?  Must be quite a few.  The questions you ask are all good ones.     

There is a SmallSMT Limited registered in the UK.    Curiously with a director called "MICHAEL HEINZ BRUCH"    what woudl be the chance of that.   Its located in Manchester.  I found a pic of it on google maps. Wonder if they have a show room there.   Pending what happens with Brexit that might be great for the UK.

[SMTech]

In what way could one small business in a  niche be good for the UK after a Brexit?
Brexit is a hot mess of xenophobic crap mixed with some rose tinted spectacles imagining Britain is and could once again be a Victorian colonial superpower as if that was a good thing, instead of something build on the backs of exploited people, resources and nations that one would hope nobody would ever try to replicate. Britain did some impressive things with that wealth and power but they came at a cost and left a damaging legacy that may never be healed in some cases.

If we leave without a deal the UK has managed at the last count 6 or 7 "deals" that maintain the status quo with other nations, this is far from promising progress and doesn't include what is currently our most important market. Some nations will seek to exploit that, others are worried about the kind of economy Britain might try to foster in that environment, how it uses it taxation powers, state aid and rules and rules governing such. The most likely outcome it is suggested if this happens is zero tarriffs, that automatically means any negotiations after that point come from a point of weakness and also threatens some industries like agriculture that could and should be protected form lower quality products we're more than capable of growing/making ourselves. Tarriffs are bad except when they aren't, the world ain't black and white.

[revenue_controls]

powered up!

[TJ232]

Can we please keep this thread on the subject and move on please? Enough about the Customs Tariffs, Thank you.
[...]
Another drawback for us, been in EU, is the way how the machines can be ordered and payments are done. I still don't understand why Michael doesn't sell the machines from inside the EU as his company is located in Germany. This thing will greatly boost trust in his products and will quickly bring more customers.

You seem a bit inconsistent here. On one hand, you are concerned about the inconvenience of importing the machines yourself. On the other hand, you don't want tariffs discussed in this thread -- which are a major part of this inconvenience, especially in countries which apply significant tariffs. What's up?

Not at all, I was just saying that from my personal point of view was enough talk about Customs tariffs. It's not rocket science, for EU, just check TARIC website, As a good practice all the time be sure that all the papers are proper prepared BEFORE goods departure, and that's it. And yes, we have done it many times, including for PNP's, it takes some time, you need to be very patient with the involved bureaucracy, asking for Invoice on real value sounds strange sometime for some people around the World,  etc.
 

Why doesn't Michael set up a company in Germany which acts as the importer and distributor? I would assume that he wants to avoid the significant overhead and liability which would come with that. That company would be responsible for paying the correct import duties, guaranteeing CE compliance, registering with the WEEE electronic waste system, providing warranty, accepting product returns if the end customer is a consumer (which should be rare), and maybe most significantly taking on liability for product safety.

And why not? Is anything above that is not normal for a business to provide? Why is that bad for me, as a customer?

Michael would incur extra labor cost, insurance premiums, warranty accruals, and probably the cost of additional safety and compliance testing (if he still wants to sleep well). As a customer, how much would you be willing to pay extra for the convenience of dealing with a European vendor?

Because he is on the both ends of the whole chain and actually controlling it from product design, to production, import and distribution, I think he is the only one that can decide where and how is better to balance incomes for a better fiscal optimization. If you ask me in cases like that the expected extra cost is on the 8%-25%, depending on the volume and whole product margin rate.
I would pay this extra to be able to buy from inside EU, to be able to pay to a EU company, not in some personal Chinese bank account and to have to explain to the fiscal authorities why I'm doing such a thing, to have better support in English, etc.

But really, let's let this thread to be what's intended to be, a full review of a very interesting PNP machine that "revenue_controls" kindly will do for us all.
With zillions of pictures, videos, software presentation and even more details if possible, Thank you.

[ebastler]

Why doesn't Michael set up a company in Germany which acts as the importer and distributor? I would assume that he wants to avoid the significant overhead and liability which would come with that. That company would be responsible for paying the correct import duties, guaranteeing CE compliance, registering with the WEEE electronic waste system, providing warranty, accepting product returns if the end customer is a consumer (which should be rare), and maybe most significantly taking on liability for product safety.

And why not? Is anything above that is not normal for a business to provide? Why is that bad for me, as a customer?

It's not a bad thing, of course. All I wanted to point out is that it does not come for free (for the vendor, and hence for you as a customer).

To put it another way: SmallSMT are currently cutting some corners, you might even say evading some responsibilities, by selling direct from China. That saves them money, and enables the attractive prices. They have made a choice in favor of that business model; customers can make a choice and buy elsewhere if they prefer a different model.

[mrpackethead]

.... you need to be very patient with the involved bureaucracy, asking for Invoice on real value sounds strange sometime for some people around the World,  etc.

Now Curious, to know if the Commercial Invoice with the machine the machine where consistent with the payment.
 
This so far has been an adventure....

[revenue_controls]

yes

[IconicPCB]

MrPackethead,

Why dont You purchase a machine and finaly give Your self and the rest of us a break from well meaning belligerence.
Else start a topic all Your own where You can rightly and justifiably steer discussion the way you want it to go.

Let revenue control  do his thing, this is why he started this topic.

[mrpackethead]

powered up!

Is that tape on the base?

[revenue_controls]

yes...

[mrpackethead]

was it just for shipping a test pcb or something.   that wont' be how you use it?

[revenue_controls]

yes, just for shipping. It has very nice pcb mounting system with registration channels and spring loaded stops. I will be up loading more pics soon.
I am currently playing with the software. and manually controlling the machine.

[mrpackethead]

What are you going to make?

[cgroen]

The "Packet noise" is high on this thread (one could even hope for "Packet loss").... 

I'm extremely looking forward to hear about the results and experience on this machine, thanks to "revenue" for taking the time to do this!