SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting

[Kjelt]

Alibaba provides a great service with its trade assurance.  Its only a few percent of cost and provides a good level of assurance.  The vendor knows they will get paid, and the buyer knows that if the vendor doe'st deliver that they won't be stung.  It also means you dont' need to worry about all the hassles of checking out who the company is, as alibaba does all that.     I have used this many times with a lot of companies, and it just makes it work. 

I do agree that the dispute option is good for the buyer.
None the less they don't take any action towards the seller afterwards. I purchased $400 of drivers and motors and got rebranded fake ones.
The dispute was in my favor but that seller is still active, so still people get ripped off.

[revenue_controls]

Just received the machine shipping and tracking info!

[SWR]

I just replied to an old post about DIY AOI in another subforum and realized that it would propably be more relevant here:

Quote from: Smallsmt on March 31, 2016, 06:10:07 am

Some months before I thought about to add this function to our PNP machine.
But there are some more complicated things to solve.
You need to add more than one camera from minimum 2 directions and light from different directions if you want to inspect the solder points too.
It's easy to detect if there is a part or not but solder point inspection is more complicated.

I think it's a very good idea.

Instead of multiple cameras couldn't the first step be to use the camera that is already there and change the position to get different angles?
The idea is to use the aperture angle of the camera to create different viewing angles.
In the center is is straight down and in the four corners you have the maximum viewing angle.
Example with 2 90° angles: position below left of pad and use upper right of picture, position upper left of pad and use lower right of picture.
Example with 3 90° angles: position below pad and use upper picture, position left of pad and use right of picture, position above pad and use lower picture.

It should be possible to define inspection points for each footprint type in the library and offset them with the P&P file X, Y and rotation.

That would be a cool feature to have. 

[Smallsmt]

Your machine has free dispenser unit installed I hope this could be nice for you.

Social media / forums are powerful motivaters.

You're wrong we already discussed before.
And it doesn't depend on forum trolls!

[Smallsmt]

They wanted 50% with the order and 50% before shipping. I went to my bank and wired the
full payment (to avoid the additional bank fees). It takes a lot of faith and courage to wire $15K to a company in China! Not only that they wanted the payment to be deposited in some unknown Chinese guys account (the real owner???). They acknowledged the payment on Feb 21, 2019 and told me the machine went into production an it would ship in 6 weeks...

Alibaba provides a great service with its trade assurance.  Its only a few percent of cost and provides a good level of assurance.  The vendor knows they will get paid, and the buyer knows that if the vendor doe'st deliver that they won't be stung.  It also means you dont' need to worry about all the hassles of checking out who the company is, as alibaba does all that.     I have used this many times with a lot of companies, and it just makes it work.

You're so clever and takes more than 5% from seller for this plus a high member fee.

[Smallsmt]

I just replied to an old post about DIY AOI in another subforum and realized that it would propably be more relevant here:

Quote from: Smallsmt on March 31, 2016, 06:10:07 am

Some months before I thought about to add this function to our PNP machine.
But there are some more complicated things to solve.
You need to add more than one camera from minimum 2 directions and light from different directions if you want to inspect the solder points too.
It's easy to detect if there is a part or not but solder point inspection is more complicated.

I think it's a very good idea.

Instead of multiple cameras couldn't the first step be to use the camera that is already there and change the position to get different angles?
The idea is to use the aperture angle of the camera to create different viewing angles.
In the center is is straight down and in the four corners you have the maximum viewing angle.
Example with 2 90° angles: position below left of pad and use upper right of picture, position upper left of pad and use lower right of picture.
Example with 3 90° angles: position below pad and use upper picture, position left of pad and use right of picture, position above pad and use lower picture.

It should be possible to define inspection points for each footprint type in the library and offset them with the P&P file X, Y and rotation.

That would be a cool feature to have. 

This was a total different context.
It's a function of a dedicated AOI and we need the cameras from different angles to calculate 3D information for solder points.
We need multiple cameras to increase the speed too.
The simple top camera can only check if a part is on position but we want to know if it's soldered well too.

[mrpackethead]

Your machine has free dispenser unit installed I hope this could be nice for you.

Social media / forums are powerful motivaters.

You're wrong we already discussed before.
And it doesn't depend on forum trolls!

The only person who i've been able to verify as a bonafinde customer of Sunny  was only able to get some satisfaction after they posted about their troubles on this very forum.  Seems this person is only getting some action after posting on this forum.   Just an observation.

[mrpackethead]

You're so clever and takes more than 5% from seller for this plus a high member fee.

https://service.alibaba.com/buyer/faq_detail/20111762.htm


2) Service fee on seller when payment be received
a. For order amount≤USD5000: seller needs to pay 5% for wholesale products; 1% or 2% for custom products (1% -order must be shipped via Alibaba logistics service，2% -order is not shipped via Alibaba logistics service)；
b. For order amount>USD5000: no service fee on seller, and order must be exported via One Touch.

Alibaba do undertake compliance and auditing activity of company who use its services, so they can minimize their risks.     Hard to argue with US$478.6 billion of trade ( 2016 ) each year. They must be doing something right.

[revenue_controls]

The only person who i've been able to verify as a bonafide

I'm glad I'm a bonafide person now! Thanks.

[mrpackethead]

The only person who i've been able to verify as a bonafide

I'm glad I'm a bonafide person now! Thanks.

While i have no reason to doubt you are for real,  Your not the person I am refering to.   

[revenue_controls]

The only person who i've been able to verify as a bonafide

I'm glad I'm a bonafide person now! Thanks.

While i have no reason to doubt you are for real,  Your not the person I am refering to.

 

[IconicPCB]

Revenue,

Don't worry... I await Your review with baited breath.

[mrpackethead]

Revenue,

Don't worry... I await Your review with baited breath.

We all do.  :-) 

[IconicPCB]

Ahh ... yes but how ripe is Your bait?

[mrpackethead]

I certainly can't talk cause my nickname is a bit weird, but I'd love to know how you came to be 'Revenue_controls"

[SWR]

It's a function of a dedicated AOI and we need the cameras from different angles to calculate 3D information for solder points.

Yes, I totally get that. You need different angles to build a 3D point cloud. Normally 18° angle difference is enough to create a depth perspective.

We need multiple cameras to increase the speed too.

I agree that 3 cameras are quicker than taking 3 pictures with one camera.
But to many hobby customers - myself included - a slow AOI would be a valuable tool and certainly better than no AOI.

The simple top camera can only check if a part is on position but we want to know if it's soldered well too.

This is the interesting question that I wanted to check.
Do you need different cameras to get different viewing angles?

On my VP-2500DP machine the top camera is about 50mm above the PCB surface.
To create 18° angle coverage you need a center distance of 50mm*tan(9°) = 7,9mm.
That is a 15,8mm wide view for full circular 18° angle difference.
If you just use the corners it's sqrt(7,9²/2) = 5,6mm.
That is a 11,2mm wide view for corner to corner 18° angle difference.

Large angles will increase the depth resolution of the point cloud, but maybe it's good enough to use for AOI.
How wide & tall is the view area from the top camera on the VP-2500DP?

[mrpackethead]

I think smallsmt said he was going to have this working 'in a few weeks' back in 2016. How did it go Micheal?

[revenue_controls]

Feeders should be here tomorrow (Tuesday) However the machine seems to be stuck in Hong Kong....

[IconicPCB]

At the risk of starting the ugly...why the constant acrimony?

[mrpackethead]

Feeders should be here tomorrow (Tuesday) However the machine seems to be stuck in Hong Kong....

whats the duty going to cost on this? Last time i looked PNP machines out of China were being slamed with a 25% tarriff

[revenue_controls]

At the risk of starting the ugly...why the constant acrimony?

To whom are you referring to?

[Kjelt]

If that is true...I'M SCREWED! 

sent the bill to the white house 

[revenue_controls]

sent the bill to the white house 

https://tradingeconomics.com/netherlands/personal-income-tax-rate
Read it and weep.

[Kjelt]

 

[ebastler]

I think revenue_controls meant to say that the White House is doing great, never mind the China tariffs. 

And he implied that foreigners should not criticize the US government, lest their own government gets criticized in return.

May I suggest that we stay well away from the topic of which governmental approach is "best"? It's a debate which has proven to be a surefire way to derail any forum thread...