Author Topic: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting (Read 35780 times)

Kjelt · « **Reply #75 on:** April 30, 2019, 02:28:00 pm »

Agreed, I should not have made a political hint

mrpackethead · « **Reply #76 on:** April 30, 2019, 07:32:00 pm »

Quote from: revenue_controls on April 30, 2019, 02:07:11 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on April 30, 2019, 01:33:44 pm
Quote from: revenue_controls on April 30, 2019, 11:46:18 am
If that is true...I'M SCREWED!
sent the bill to the white house

https://tradingeconomics.com/netherlands/personal-income-tax-rate
Read it and weep.

https://circuitsassembly.com/ca/editorial/menu-news/29579-pending-us-tariffs-to-effect-host-of-pcb-equipment-components.html

The tarrif for PNP's is based on the code 8479.89.92, which is " Automated electronic component placement machines for making printed circuitassemblies "

Tarrif wars don't help anyone!

Kjelt · « **Reply #77 on:** April 30, 2019, 07:59:28 pm »

Quote from: revenue_controls on April 30, 2019, 07:46:30 pm

Others will see these posts and buy US made PNP machines so they don't get screwed. = more and better jobs.

I really can't come up with a single US made p&p brand .......
Can you name two to help refresh my memory?

revenue_controls · « **Reply #78 on:** April 30, 2019, 08:04:43 pm »

SMTmax Chino, CA 91710
DDM Novastar Ivyland, PA

Others I'm sure...

Kjelt · « **Reply #79 on:** April 30, 2019, 08:24:49 pm »

Never heard of them, esp not on this forum.

NorthGuy · « **Reply #80 on:** April 30, 2019, 09:00:50 pm »

Quote from: revenue_controls on April 30, 2019, 07:46:30 pm

Here we go... They help the US manufactures.

You are an US manufacturer. Do they help you?

revenue_controls · « **Reply #81 on:** April 30, 2019, 09:12:12 pm »

Feeders are here!

IconicPCB · « **Reply #82 on:** April 30, 2019, 10:54:46 pm »

I hope the machine follows the feeders without additional expense of a tariff.

The tariff is a painful impost on people trying to do business in an economy and can only serve to burden the small guy with unexpected taxes.
People on the other hand ought to compete on a level playing field by taking on the competition on identical terms. In a way this then acts to spread the wealth a little bit more evenly and justly without influence of other unrelated factors such as military might of neocolonial interest groups.
The value leader sets the goal and challenges others to better the goal.

In practical terms everybody gets to eat some rice and some steak.

mrpackethead · « **Reply #83 on:** April 30, 2019, 11:04:53 pm »

Quote from: IconicPCB on April 30, 2019, 10:54:46 pm

I hope the machine follows the feeders without additional expense of a tariff.

The tariff is a painful impost on people trying to do business in an economy and can only serve to burden the small guy with unexpected taxes.
People on the other hand ought to compete on a level playing field by taking on the competition on identical terms. In a way this then acts to spread the wealth a little bit more evenly and justly without influence of other unrelated factors such as military might of neocolonial interest groups.
The value leader sets the goal and challenges others to better the goal.

In practical terms everybody gets to eat some rice and some steak.

Im glad i live somwhere where there are nearly zero tarrifs imposed. Guess thats because as a country that survives on its exports we dont' want to make it any harder for ourselves!

revenue_controls · « **Reply #84 on:** April 30, 2019, 11:32:57 pm »

continuing...
17 CL Feeders arrived today from China, in sizes 8, 16, 12, and 24 mm in two boxes. Shipping via DHL, they only took a few days to arrive. I was able to track them the whole way. The feeders were in there original manufactures form fitting packaging and then pack into larger boxes for shipping to me. The packages arrived in good condition without any damage. The boxes were completely raped in a yellowish packing tape, which seems to be a common practice from Chinese shippers. The feeders were individually boxed and inside they were wrapped in plastic wrap with some machine oil.

The feeders themselves are mechanically cool looking and seem to be quite delicate devices. They are made with mostly stamped and bent steel. The bigger sizes seem to be of a more robust construction. The mechanics are quite intricate. They are pneumatically operated. There are no electrical components or sensors on them.

revenue_controls · « **Reply #85 on:** April 30, 2019, 11:41:31 pm »

Currently the machine is still sitting in Hong Kong...

mrpackethead · « **Reply #86 on:** April 30, 2019, 11:53:58 pm »

Those CL feeders are good units and they just work. You sometimes will need to adjust them so the calibration is correct, but i typicaly have only had to do that after 50+ reels of placement, You can do a 'suck and see' approach to the cal, or you can get a tool to help you, its easier with the tool, but i did my first ones with the inspection microscope and a hacked together plate to hold it on! Its amazing how closely the feeders are cloned from teh yamaha orginals. Theres typically a few minor things. You can also easily get all the replacement parts for them on aliexpress or somewhere like ksunsmt. I have several hundred. The big difference i've found between these and the orginals is that the air accuators are not nearly as good as the orginal ones, and they will wear out quicker.. Make sure your air supply is really dry and it will help you no end. Its also work making sure that the manifold air pressures are consistent as this will help you with more consistent feeding. The other area to be careful with is the pins on face that attaches to teh manifold. They need to be perfectly straight and its easy to damage them when you are reeling up if you are not aware of that. Sorting out a good storage system for them is both time and money well spent :-)

Heres a link to a calibration tool ( theres lots of places to get the same thing )
http://www.ksunsmt.com/cpxx/info_34.aspx?itemid=120&lcid=64&pid=51

revenue_controls · « **Reply #87 on:** April 30, 2019, 11:57:06 pm »

Quote from: Kjelt on April 30, 2019, 08:24:49 pm

Never heard of them, esp not on this forum.

If you never heard of them or they are not on this forum = they don't exist....

revenue_controls · « **Reply #88 on:** May 01, 2019, 12:02:05 am »

Quote from: mrpackethead on April 30, 2019, 11:53:58 pm

Those CL feeders are good units and they just work. You sometimes will need to adjust them so the calibration is correct, but i typicaly have only had to do that after 50+ reels of placement, You can do a 'suck and see' approach to the cal, or you can get a tool to help you, its easier with the tool, but i did my first ones with the inspection microscope and a hacked together plate to hold it on! Its amazing how closely the feeders are cloned from teh yamaha orginals. Theres typically a few minor things. You can also easily get all the replacement parts for them on aliexpress or somewhere like ksunsmt. I have several hundred. The big difference i've found between these and the orginals is that the air accuators are not nearly as good as the orginal ones, and they will wear out quicker.. Make sure your air supply is really dry and it will help you no end. Its also work making sure that the manifold air pressures are consistent as this will help you with more consistent feeding. The other area to be careful with is the pins on face that attaches to teh manifold. They need to be perfectly straight and its easy to damage them when you are reeling up if you are not aware of that. Sorting out a good storage system for them is both time and money well spent :-)

Heres a link to a calibration tool ( theres lots of places to get the same thing )
http://www.ksunsmt.com/cpxx/info_34.aspx?itemid=120&lcid=64&pid=51

Thanks for the info!

SMTech · « **Reply #89 on:** May 01, 2019, 08:15:53 am »

DDM certainly crops up on here and before the very cheap Chinese & Polish machines cropped up, were probably the de-facto entry level machines unless you count the horrible Japanese MDCs. That said they are in many ways outclassed by Autotronik, while Essemtecs older machines and Dima (while they existed) also made a better more capable package.
SMTMax and Maddell are/were both very questionably American, and sell garbage so far as I can tell.

Universal is a very large US manufacturer of placement machines, they make very nice machines, however their European presence today seems weaker than it has been historically. This probably has more to do with how their machines fit in the market as it changes than anything else.

Versatec is a US manufacturer that makes a pick and place (although I'm not sure anyone buys it) previous models were fairly common to see 2nd user until quite recently but the C5 was/is in no way competitive.

ITW might not make pick and place but it has extremely strong global brands in reflow, printing and dispensing/coating (some of them being a somewhat European in flavour).

And on the same trend BTU and Heller, the other major reflow brands, also American.

revenue_controls · « **Reply #90 on:** May 01, 2019, 10:47:06 am »

Good info SMtech.

A lot of you guys know the pnp machine and pcb manufacturing equipment market very well, I am just a beginner. It would be great if you guys could collaborate and compile a list of pnp machines (and other equipment). You can include for example; manufacture, model, cost, country of origin, reputation, service and support notes, software notes, usability notes, etc... It could be a sticky.

SMTech · « **Reply #91 on:** May 01, 2019, 12:55:16 pm »

The trouble with doing that is unless someone curates it you just end up with one of those unreadable threads full of contradictory information. Its like trying to follow something on XDAdevelopers about flashing your phone, it can take some serious work to establish if the ROM you think is interesting actually works, if the people who say it doesn't are idiots, it they are even talking about the ROM linked in the first post or if there is a later version on page 132...
also as this thread demonstrates this forum loves to get sidetracked. Currently you could create quite a list just about Chinese machines that come under $20k including feeders & taxes.

mrpackethead · « **Reply #92 on:** May 02, 2019, 08:43:21 am »

Quote from: SMTech on May 01, 2019, 12:55:16 pm

The trouble with doing that is unless someone curates it you just end up with one of those unreadable threads full of contradictory information. Its like trying to follow something on XDAdevelopers about flashing your phone, it can take some serious work to establish if the ROM you think is interesting actually works, if the people who say it doesn't are idiots, it they are even talking about the ROM linked in the first post or if there is a later version on page 132...
also as this thread demonstrates this forum loves to get sidetracked. Currently you could create quite a list just about Chinese machines that come under $20k including feeders & taxes.

This is why forums are a BAD thing for being a repostory of info. A forum is just a long conversation that is written rather than spoken.

SMTech · « **Reply #93 on:** May 02, 2019, 08:57:36 am »

Yeah it needs a wiki

mrpackethead · « **Reply #94 on:** May 02, 2019, 09:36:13 am »

Quote from: IconicPCB on April 27, 2019, 07:33:37 am

Ahh ... yes but how ripe is Your bait?

its gone stale now, waiting for this machine to arrive. Got an ETA Revenue_control? I'm guessing at a few hundred kgs, its coming on air-freight rather than a express courier service.

revenue_controls · « **Reply #95 on:** May 02, 2019, 10:49:17 am »

Its in MEMPHIS, TN.

Scheduled delivery:
Monday 5/06/2019 by 12:00 pm

I think you guys should still compile a list of what is currently available as of this date. There could be a few lists, each of you with your own opinions and experiences. If others bitch about it, to hell with them.

revenue_controls · « **Reply #96 on:** May 07, 2019, 08:23:45 pm »

Scheduled delivery:
Wednesday 5/08/2019 by 12:00 pm

The machine was stuck in customs for a few days.

mrpackethead · « **Reply #97 on:** May 08, 2019, 12:52:30 am »

Did you have to pay any tarrifs on it? It seems hit and miss from all accounts, i guess it depends on who the customs agent is and how they feel on the day.

revenue_controls · « **Reply #98 on:** May 08, 2019, 04:38:37 pm »

The machine is here! No problems with the packing.

I'll be uploading pictures of the packing soon...

IconicPCB · « **Reply #99 on:** May 08, 2019, 08:14:50 pm »

Good fortune with Your efforts. Looking forward to Your descriptions of the equipment.


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Author Topic: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting (Read 35780 times)

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