Author Topic: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!  (Read 16227 times)

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Offline GlennSprigg

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"Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« on: April 20, 2018, 01:08:22 pm »
We've ALL seen the CRAP on Youtube or what-ever.....
My DISCUSSION is about how normal society should RESPOND to them ??
Do we IGNORE them... or try to EDUCATE them ???????????????
It worries me how some people in this day and age can still be so ill-informed.....
WE.. (99.99999% of us, even if non-technical) accept certain basics. I actually
feel sorry for those who do not understand/accept.... and as a result I almost feel
it is my 'DUTY', not just my 'right', to inform/educate them ????
HOW can it BE, that in the year 2018, and within civilized/educated countries, that
'people' still think they are being 'fooled' by the Masses/'Powers-To-Be'.....
I'm not talking about certain Country's 'secrets', but the shape of the Earth !!!!!
Ours being ONE of many similarly spherical planets, (not to mention our Moon)
orbiting our spherical Sun etc etc etc...........

I want to HELP them UNDERSTAND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Should we bother, or is it a lost cause...... (and if so, then why !!)
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2018, 01:18:57 pm »
I'd say ignore them, mostly.  Though they can be entertaining to argue with.  >:D

I still wonder if this thing is a global troll effort.  I kinda hope so.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2018, 01:26:20 pm »
Do we IGNORE them... or try to EDUCATE them ???????????????

Flat Earther... Scientology... Sovereign Citizens... it's all the same sort of bullshit. When have you ever know one to be "educated" in any sense of the word?

Those kinds of people generally hold extremist views, their "arguments" are fundamentally flawed and they probably have a screw or two loose in their head. No matter how much science, logic and facts you present to them, in their own twisted world, you'll be wrong.

The less air time they are given, the better. Those sorts of people are best ignored. They form an insignificant portion of the population anyway.

Also, don't try and understand any of it, because it's below normal human understanding and cognitive function. You'll just drive yourself nuts because your brain is capable of independent and rational thought.
 

Online Rerouter

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2018, 01:31:27 pm »
Both my sister, and my niece have subscribed to the idea, though part of me wonders if its just to troll me (I take photos of satellites crossing the moon)

My best response is, "Is the moon flat"? so far they have paused at that, because I'm not beating in my own info, but rather challenging there own.

Again, Personally taken high res images of the moon, pretty easy to see its not flat.
 

Offline BillB

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2018, 01:32:48 pm »
There is a difference between holding obscure religious beliefs, or unusual interpretations of law, and subscribing to conspiracy theories.  Read three different papers on what personalities gravitate toward conspiracy theories and you'll get three completely different findings.

The takeaway is that this isn't necessarily a lack of knowledge, as many conspiracy theorists are more knowledgeable about the given subject than others, but a personality that usually rejects authority, may have self-esteem issues, and may be influenced by social inclusion/exclusion.  You aren't going to convince them with knowledge, logic, or persuasion. 
 
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2018, 01:45:46 pm »
There is a difference between holding obscure religious beliefs, or unusual interpretations of law, and subscribing to conspiracy theories.  Read three different papers on what personalities gravitate toward conspiracy theories and you'll get three completely different findings.

I'm not psychologist, but I tend to disagree.

I often find that those who are on the extreme end of the spectrum tend to be susceptible to all three (in varying levels). There are a lot of similarities between extreme religion, aversion to law/authority and perhaps some weird and wonderful thoughts with respect to the world/aliens/paranormal.

I'm not talking about your "normal" everyday, garden variety folks. If people want to believe that jebus, Allah etc... will look after them, more power to them. I'm specifically referring to those further down the spectrum where mental illness starts to become a more significant factor in their thought processes. I'm not suggesting that all Flat Earthers are mentally ill or that all mentally ill people believe the earth is flat, but there are strong correlations.
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2018, 01:59:20 pm »
I sincerely hope that the moderators use common sense and delete this bullshit thread, this crap has no place here and I do not understand why people continue to pollute the forum with this fucking garbage. 
 
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Offline NANDBlog

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2018, 02:05:34 pm »
Here is an image of all the cognitive biases. You are expecting others to understand basic reasoning, and you expect them not to be complete idiots. At least some of them will be complete idiots. The issue is actually with you.
 

Offline BillB

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2018, 02:18:57 pm »
There is a difference between holding obscure religious beliefs, or unusual interpretations of law, and subscribing to conspiracy theories.  Read three different papers on what personalities gravitate toward conspiracy theories and you'll get three completely different findings.

I'm not psychologist, but I tend to disagree.

I often find that those who are on the extreme end of the spectrum tend to be susceptible to all three (in varying levels). There are a lot of similarities between extreme religion, aversion to law/authority and perhaps some weird and wonderful thoughts with respect to the world/aliens/paranormal.

I'm not talking about your "normal" everyday, garden variety folks. If people want to believe that jebus, Allah etc... will look after them, more power to them. I'm specifically referring to those further down the spectrum where mental illness starts to become a more significant factor in their thought processes. I'm not suggesting that all Flat Earthers are mentally ill or that all mentally ill people believe the earth is flat, but there are strong correlations.

Hmmm.  While I agree that there are similarities in how we perceive those with non-conformist views, how and why they adopt those views are very different.  Plus, given the proliferation and popularity of these theories, subscribers aren't as far down the "spectrum" as you might believe.  For example, I had a new HVAC system installed by a very nice, competent, seemingly reasonable fellow.  At the end of his visit, we wound up on the subject of the moon landing.  He attempted to articulately and logically convince me that it was all faked.  This is certainly less of a case of mental illness than it is a combination of a distrust of authority combined with a poor grasp of classical logic.

I think the correlation you see is the inability or unwillingness to view the particular subject rationally; they compartmentalize it.  We as humans have an amazing ability to tolerate cognitive dissonance.

I also think we should make Logic a required, must-pass subject in our education system.

 
 

Offline The Soulman

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2018, 02:29:35 pm »
I sincerely hope that the moderators use common sense and delete this bullshit thread, this crap has no place here and I do not understand why people continue to pollute the forum with this fucking garbage.

I agree, in the meantime:

<--------------   lol.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2018, 02:50:04 pm »
I sincerely hope that the moderators use common sense and delete this bullshit thread, this crap has no place here and I do not understand why people continue to pollute the forum with this fucking garbage.

Agreed.
 

Offline Terabyte2007

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2018, 02:56:24 pm »
I am stunned that this is even still discussed. It's like free energy! Anyone with a basic high school education in the laws of physics should be able to understand why this is BS.  :palm:
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Online rstofer

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2018, 03:20:47 pm »
We've ALL seen the CRAP on Youtube or what-ever.....
My DISCUSSION is about how normal society should RESPOND to them ??
Do we IGNORE them... or try to EDUCATE them ???????????????

Never try to teach a pig to sing!  It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
 

Offline raptor1956

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2018, 09:36:14 pm »
I'd say ignore them, mostly.  Though they can be entertaining to argue with.  >:D

I still wonder if this thing is a global troll effort.  I kinda hope so.

It's both a nation state sponsored trolling activity and a more organic spouting of idiocy from religious and conspiracy nuts.  Add in a percentage of just plain stupid people and this is what you get.

Ignoring them would be best, but they know that spamming every video about space or NASA or science will produce the desired response and if it doesn't they know to be more offensive to get the response they want. 

As far as the trolling is concerned, I mentioned nation state involvement and I feel there's little need to elaborate on who and why, but in addition to nation state trolling there are domestic sponsored trolls who's aim is not far different than the nation state sponsored trolls.  The nation state actors want to get the west to doubt any and all authority including leaders in the science world.  The domestic trolls just want people to focus on something other than the dirty deeds there sponsors are doing. 


Brian
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2018, 09:58:12 pm »
Most of this is just a joke.

However I don't believe we should have any problem with the majority of people growing stupider and stupider. It just makes it easier for the smart people who remain to take advantage of everybody and RULE THE FLAT WORLD!  :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2018, 11:33:15 pm »
I sincerely hope that the moderators use common sense and delete this bullshit thread, this crap has no place here and I do not understand why people continue to pollute the forum with this fucking garbage.

Garbage yes and as I said, the less air time nut cases get, the better. However this particular forum doesn't really attract those types. I see no reason why we should simply delete threads which feature this kind of "crap". If that were the case, every thread about Apple would be deleted also.  ;D  :box:
 

Offline G0HZU

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2018, 12:06:23 am »
Quote
The takeaway is that this isn't necessarily a lack of knowledge, as many conspiracy theorists are more knowledgeable about the given subject than others, but a personality that usually rejects authority, may have self-esteem issues, and may be influenced by social inclusion/exclusion.  You aren't going to convince them with knowledge, logic, or persuasion. 

Yes, I suspect that many of them cling to their views as a form of comfort blanket. This allows them to feel superior in various ways to those around them. It's probably a form of coping mechanism (for low self esteem?) and they won't want to let go of that blanket easily :)
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2018, 12:40:19 am »
Here is an image of all the cognitive biases.

Nice diagram! Too bad there's no clickable linkage between items in the circle, and the explanatory texts.
Anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
And by the way I notice that over time, a lot of the Wiki texts on specific biases got significantly watered down.

Incidentally, it's not "all" the cognitive biases. New ones being discovered continually. The human brain is a appalling evolutionary hack. Hopefully Version 2 will be an improvement.

I know of at least one that has never been included: The unrecognized  irrational assumption that 'a society of individuals of a common species, such as the human species, forming an industrialized civilization, is the only possible basis for existence of technologically advanced space-faring sentient entities.'  This is the fundamental logical flaw on which The Fermi Paradox depends. Re-framing the question without that cognitive bias eliminates the paradox, by showing that the effects we are searching for with SETI, etc, are certainly not reliable indicators of the presence or absence of advanced technological sentience. Their absence only indicates the non-existence of technological _species-based_ civilizations.  Call it the Star Trek Effect, for want of a better name.

Quote
You are expecting others to understand basic reasoning, and you expect them not to be complete idiots. At least some of them will be complete idiots. The issue is actually with you.
Actually no, it's another cognitive bias. (Not sure which particular name.)  The tendency of intelligent people moving in social circles of other intelligent people, to fail to comprehend how very much poorer is the average (and lower) person's reasoning ability and knowledge base.


I sincerely hope that the moderators use common sense and delete this bullshit thread, this crap has no place here and I do not understand why people continue to pollute the forum with this fucking garbage.

The Flat Earth proposition is fucking garbage, but discussion of exactly why it persists, is critically important. Specifically because so many people's understanding of 'why', is about as naive as the flat-Earther's 'logic.' The reality behind the garbage is really quite complex, and the issues are very important factors in what is happening with modern society. It would be good if more people came to an understanding of just what is going on with this.  'Good' in the sense that failing an improvement in understanding of the generalized 'social worldview manipulation tools' being deployed and resulting in things like the Flat Earth garbage, Western technological civilization and freedoms are doomed.

I also think we should make Logic a required, must-pass subject in our education system.
Absolutely. Yet this doesn't happen. Why? Who benefits? (Hint: It's not because of the cost of the necessary lab equipment in schools, ie none.)

Is Flat Earth garbage 'trolling'?
Sometimes, but usually not.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trolling   Extract:
Quote
The most essential part of trolling is convincing your victim that either a) truly believe in what you are saying, no matter how outrageous, or b) give your victim malicious instructions, under the guise of help.
Trolling requires decieving; any trolling that doesn't involve decieving someone isn't trolling at all; it's just stupid. As such, your victim must not know that you are trolling; if he does, you are an unsuccesful troll.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll   Extract:
Quote
In Internet slang, a troll (/troʊl, trɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion,[3] often for the troll's amusement.

So as for Trolling, we can exclude the poor fools who actually took on board and came to believe the garbage. Call them the useful idiots, because they _are_ being useful to the next group.

Also excluded from simple trolls, is anyone pushing the garbage for reasons deeper than personal amusement. For instance someone doing it for pay, or ideological motivations, doesn't count as trolling. And that group, are the core originators of this garbage.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society."
-- Edward Bernays, 'father' of modern public relations (PR), on government propaganda.

"I have the greatest admiration for your propaganda. Propaganda in the West is carried out by experts who have had the best training in the world -- in the field of advertizing -- and have mastered the techniques with exceptional proficiency ... Yours are subtle and persuasive; ours are crude and obvious ... I think that the fundamental difference between our worlds, with respect to propaganda, is quite simple. You tend to believe yours ... and we tend to disbelieve ours."
-- a Soviet correspondent based five years in the U.S.

"It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion."
-- Joseph Goebbels (1897-1945)
http://everist.org/archives/links/_Propaganda_about.txt

So what are the motives of the originators of Flat Earth rubbish on the Net?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

Note that this Wiki article has been fine tuned to avoid mention of a key application of Well Poisoning. The technique is more often used to discredit information sources, than to just smear individuals.
Filling the Net with references to Flat Earth garbage, is classic Well Poisoning. It makes sensible people recoil in disgust and confusion from Net forums where they see any mention of it. It makes the forum members who don't recoil, waste their time in pointless arguments over garbage, rather than address significant, real issues. It degrades the entire intellectual environment. It tarnishes by association the entire concept of 'people who pursue truths contrary to official narratives.' (Especially when combined with thought-jamming slogans like 'conspiracy theorist.')

The Flat Earth garbage is just one of many modern propaganda efforts, along with 'no Moon Landings', Hollow Earth, Planet Nibiru, and many others. All of them with a common motivation - to hobble the Net's part in the global awakening of free-thinking political awareness. Which by definition is always an enemy of the current ruling Elites, the status quo, and the continued suppression of public knowledge of the Elite's many heinous crimes against humanity.

(Apologies for multiple edits. Difficult to express clearly, etc.)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 01:58:06 am by TerraHertz »
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Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2018, 02:26:20 am »
I sincerely hope that the moderators use common sense and delete this bullshit thread, this crap has no place here and I do not understand why people continue to pollute the forum with this fucking garbage.

Garbage yes and as I said, the less air time nut cases get, the better. However this particular forum doesn't really attract those types. I see no reason why we should simply delete threads which feature this kind of "crap". If that were the case, every thread about Apple would be deleted also.  ;D  :box:
Yea, don't forget my happy thread in signature where you can read the entire "Bee Movie"-movie in one moving line for some reason. Nobody wants to delete that. It's just a very perfect creation and I get appreciation from everywhere.

No seriously, now that the forum is on a better server there is just no justification to remove any thread, as long as it complies with the sub-section. And this one does.

Online Bud

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2018, 02:49:48 am »
Ignoring them would be best, but they know that spamming every video about space or NASA or science will produce the desired response and if it doesn't they know to be more offensive to get the response they want. 

As far as the trolling is concerned, I mentioned nation state involvement and I feel there's little need to elaborate on who and why

Yes yes, it was NASA who discovered the Earth is round.

And yes about state involvement in faking things there is even a Wikipedia page about who and why

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capricorn_One#Plot
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2018, 02:52:54 am »
The Flat Earth proposition is fucking garbage, but discussion of exactly why it persists, is critically important. Specifically because so many people's understanding of 'why', is about as naive as the flat-Earther's 'logic.' The reality behind the garbage is really quite complex, and the issues are very important factors in what is happening with modern society. It would be good if more people came to an understanding of just what is going on with this.  'Good' in the sense that failing an improvement in understanding of the generalized 'social worldview manipulation tools' being deployed and resulting in things like the Flat Earth garbage, Western technological civilization and freedoms are doomed.

Exactly this. I couldn't have put it better myself.

One could argue that religion is fiction/non-fiction or that climate change does/doesn't exist... The notion itself might be garbage but the deeper analysis and debate is important. It's like exercise for critical thinkers.
 

Online xrunner

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2018, 02:53:20 am »
Well, if the Earth is flat, then I'd ask them where can I go to get to the edge of this flat Earth? Has anyone been there? Can you look underneath, etc ...
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2018, 02:54:45 am »
Can you look underneath, etc ...

Oh you don't want to see underneath. Have you looked under your fridge lately or under your rugs? It's the same stuff.

Also it's dark and there could be spiders.
 

Offline raptor1956

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2018, 03:03:03 am »
Ignoring them would be best, but they know that spamming every video about space or NASA or science will produce the desired response and if it doesn't they know to be more offensive to get the response they want. 

As far as the trolling is concerned, I mentioned nation state involvement and I feel there's little need to elaborate on who and why

Yes yes, it was NASA who discovered the Earth is round.

And yes about state involvement in faking things there is even a Wikipedia page about who and why

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capricorn_One#Plot


Once again, Bud, WTF are you going on about?


Brian
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2018, 03:04:36 am »
They think theres a high ice wall surrounding the southpole. and you cant get close to it because theres also a huge fleet of ships blocking everyone off. Just because, I assume

Online james_s

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2018, 07:22:13 am »
I figured most of them were just bored people trolling trying to get a rise out of other people. A few are probably crackpots suffering from mental illness. I'd just continue to ignore them all.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2018, 08:22:59 am »
The interesting thing with flat earthers is the fact that they are not dying out, instead this movement seems to increase by the day.
I have a family member that strongly believes in a flat earth, and there is NOTHING I can say or do to change his mind.

But it can get stupider....
The newest movement is fuel hoax for airplanes.
This guy in this following video below is totally angry, because that movement has used his airplane engine repair videos to proof that there is no fuel. And he is in rant mode in this video. I followed him for a while, because he has great jet engine repair videos.
He also raises the question of how to deal with "stupid" people!

Hoaxter discussion


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Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2018, 08:57:50 am »
Once again, Bud, WTF are you going on about?

Brian

Is your irony  detector working ok lately?
 
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Offline Terry01

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2018, 09:21:47 am »
Meanwhile.......

said "empty head" sits happily looking over the edge his flat world while all the intellectuals discuss what to do about him.......

you couldn't make it up!   :scared:

 :-DD
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Online ogden

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2018, 09:51:45 am »
Another kind of cult aimed at conspiracy theorists or just uneducated fools. As you do not stand in front of any church educating atheism, you ignore flatearthers as well. Educating true believers is just waste of time because most of them are quite disconnected from real world anyways.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2018, 10:10:51 am »
Another kind of cult aimed at conspiracy theorists or just uneducated fools. As you do not stand in front of any church educating atheism, you ignore flatearthers as well. Educating true believers is just waste of time because most of them are quite disconnected from real world anyways.

Exactly! Try telling them that his music is shit and see how far you get.



;-)
 
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2018, 10:25:27 am »
As far as the trolling is concerned, I mentioned nation state involvement and I feel there's little need to elaborate on who and why, but in addition to nation state trolling there are domestic sponsored trolls who's aim is not far different than the nation state sponsored trolls.  The nation state actors want to get the west to doubt any and all authority including leaders in the science world.  The domestic trolls just want people to focus on something other than the dirty deeds there sponsors are doing.

I think someone’s been watching too much cable TV “news”.
 

Offline drussell

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2018, 01:22:59 pm »
...
The newest movement is fuel hoax for airplanes.
Hoaxter discussion

https://youtu.be/7a8iRnWepmg?t=30

LOL...  I like how he puts it:

Quote
"I never believed that so many people would find such a stupid idea so appealing, and they appear to have made themselves absolutely immune to the facts.  Just amazing!  They've got a perfect hard shell of ignorance around their, their very being."
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2018, 02:44:34 pm »
You have to understand that there are 46.529 million people in your country who have an IQ of less than 85. (by Wechsler) Retardation starts at 70 - 80, according to who you ask. Your country has a lower average IQ than the average IQ by definition. (98 instead of 100)
...What do you expect? I don't think they are trolling at all.

Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2018, 03:15:06 pm »
You have to understand that there are 46.529 million people in your country who have an IQ of less than 85. (by Wechsler) [...]  Your country has a lower average IQ than the average IQ by definition. (98 instead of 100)

You've got our math wrong, or your U.S. population (325 Mio as of 2017)...
 

Online james_s

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2018, 05:20:59 pm »
The interesting thing with flat earthers is the fact that they are not dying out, instead this movement seems to increase by the day.
I have a family member that strongly believes in a flat earth, and there is NOTHING I can say or do to change his mind.

But it can get stupider....
The newest movement is fuel hoax for airplanes.
This guy in this following video below is totally angry, because that movement has used his airplane engine repair videos to proof that there is no fuel. And he is in rant mode in this video. I followed him for a while, because he has great jet engine repair videos.
He also raises the question of how to deal with "stupid" people!

He has gotten snared by the trolls, usenet is virtually dead, where did all the trolls go? To other online forums of course. Best to just ignore them, if it was possible to make a jet engine that ran on just air everyone would have one, it would be the holy grail of free energy and whoever was selling them would make a fortune that would put all the money in the oil industry to shame. Some idiot is probably cackling with glee that they got the turbine tech guy to dedicate nearly a whole episode to ranting about their stupid trolling.
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2018, 05:47:19 pm »
Quote
"I never believed that so many people would find such a stupid idea so appealing, and they appear to have made themselves absolutely immune to the facts.  Just amazing!  They've got a perfect hard shell of ignorance around their, their very being."
Nothing unique to flat earthers. This describes any religion and most political isms.
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2018, 06:19:51 pm »
If it is a joke then:  ;D

Otherwise: No.

325.7 million / 7 = 46.529 million
Or 325.7 million / 100 * 14.3061222370% = 46,595,040.125909 people under 85 IQ - means exclusive 85 IQ, but including all other under
(https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/iqtable.aspx)

Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2018, 06:41:08 pm »
Or 325.7 million / 100 * 14.3061222370% = 46,595,040.125909 people under 85 IQ - means exclusive 85 IQ, but including all other under
(https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/iqtable.aspx)

That would be the right table lookup if the average IQ were 100. But as you stated in your prior post, that's not the case in your example. In a population with an average IQ < 100, the percentage with IQ < 85 will be even larger .

This doesn't hurt your original argument, of course. The learning lesson here is that when you make an argument which involves IQ values, you invite comments from nitpickers. ;)
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2018, 06:47:04 pm »
I didn't really care about that. The info that the average IQ is 98 is questionable anyway and it is from 2006.

Offline raptor1956

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2018, 08:56:24 pm »
Once again, Bud, WTF are you going on about?

Brian

Is your irony  detector working ok lately?


Bud has a habit of saying insane off-the-wall things so irony is only one of many possibilities...


Brian
 

Offline raptor1956

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2018, 08:57:56 pm »
As far as the trolling is concerned, I mentioned nation state involvement and I feel there's little need to elaborate on who and why, but in addition to nation state trolling there are domestic sponsored trolls who's aim is not far different than the nation state sponsored trolls.  The nation state actors want to get the west to doubt any and all authority including leaders in the science world.  The domestic trolls just want people to focus on something other than the dirty deeds there sponsors are doing.

I think someone’s been watching too much cable TV “news”.

No, too many NASA and SpaceX videos filled with trolling...


Brian
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2018, 02:33:18 am »
common sense is no-longer common.  :-//
Science has lost credibility when politics got added to it. in the 1990s
today for many non scientists, Science is seen as relative to whatever political view you hold to be true.  :horse:

Hobby of evil genius      basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2018, 03:02:30 am »
On Friday I discovered that a pair of coworkers whom sometimes share a table on the company cafeteria, are flat earthers.

This came as a shock to me because otherwise they are smart and hardworking people. Not engineers though.

As someone else wrote in other post, it is all about compartmentalization of emotions.
 

Online james_s

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2018, 03:19:38 am »
That's just weird. I mean religion is one thing, I'm not religious myself but I can't prove there is no god. The earth though, I can hop on a commercial airliner and see the curvature of the earth with my own eyes, no blind faith is required, no woo, just look out the window and there it is.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2018, 04:24:10 am »
That's just weird. I mean religion is one thing, I'm not religious myself but I can't prove there is no god.

The earth though, I can hop on a commercial airliner and see the curvature of the earth with my own eyes,

no blind faith is required, no woo, just look out the window and there it is.



You'll do better with your own eyes riding on an open crop dust plane, or open helicopter at various altitudes.   

Some commercial airliner ports sometimes give a distorted perspective, especially over large chunks of divided/bordered farmland

I remember years ago when I had a big 21" curved analogue PC monitor, jumped on a commercial flight, looked out and everything looked concave instead of flatish-convex

Same deal when I bought a 21" flat analogue monitor and TV, they looked concave too

You do adjust after a few head shakes and a beer or three...  8)
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2018, 04:25:38 am »
The fact that everybody here is talking about this today is proof that the flat earthers have won.

Screwing with someone is only worthwhile so long as they react.
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Online james_s

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2018, 04:31:32 am »
You'll do better with your own eyes riding on an open crop dust plane, or open helicopter at various altitudes.   

Some commercial airliner ports sometimes give a distorted perspective, especially over large chunks of divided/bordered farmland

I remember years ago when I had a big 21" curved analogue PC monitor, jumped on a commercial flight, looked out and everything looked concave instead of flatish-convex

Same deal when I bought a 21" flat analogue monitor and TV, they looked concave too

You do adjust after a few head shakes and a beer or three...  8)

Ok well I can also hike to the top of a local mountain, Mt. Pilchuck is a bit over 5,000ft, not airliner territory but on a clear day you can see out over the Pacific Ocean far enough to see the effect of the curvature.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2018, 04:43:39 am »
The fact that everybody here is talking about this today is proof that the flat earthers have won.

Screwing with someone is only worthwhile so long as they react.


Some quick internet browsing brings up history info that Flat Earthers were on top for centuries before many bought into Copernicus theories/speculation at that time and turned

Perhaps FEs are either looking for payback or a free helicopter ride   :-// 

Either way, who GAF whether Earth is flat, round or whatever?

We should ALL AGREE to look after it and not let mentally ill money/power hoarders trash it with 'progress without purpose'

Once it's too far gone and polluted and the landfills FILLED,

it's GAME OVER for future generations

and us when we are old farts with one foot in the grave (if there's any clean fill space left)  having to deal with irate criticism for being d!ckhead procrastinists, selfish and apathetic   :-- :--

 

Offline Ampera

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2018, 05:10:40 am »
Perhaps FEs are either looking for payback or a free helicopter ride   :-// 

Is that a reference to what I think it's a reference to, or just a bad joke. Not offended, as that's hard to do, but I just want to ensure you know what that could mean.

To secant,

Either way, who GAF whether Earth is flat, round or whatever?

We should ALL AGREE to look after it and not let mentally ill money/power hoarders trash it with 'progress without purpose'

Once it's too far gone and polluted and the landfills FILLED,

it's GAME OVER for future generations

and us when we are old farts with one foot in the grave (if there's any clean fill space left)  having to deal with irate criticism for being d!ckhead procrastinists, selfish and apathetic   :-- :--

That's easy to hope for, even dream for. The issue comes when the minority at the top does not wish to give up their monetary advantage in order to combat something that is predictable, but not currently a problem.

Perhaps a better angle, considering human nature, would be to theorize ideas on how to fix the earth post-disastrously in the event concepts like global warming take hold.

I remember a political single pane cartoon, where at a symposium on global warming and the switching to less careless lifestyles, a man in the audience was drawn as projectedly asking "What if we were to create a better world for nothing?"

As a filthy millennial/Gen Z (I would believe I personally fall into the former, given my personal state in life, but the lines drawn are blurry and redefined by everyone else, and they are terms that are mostly meaningless fodder used to scream at other people with) I see the concepts like repair over refuse, personal accountability, and even things like common sense that have all but disappeared from our modern world. If a microwave breaks, it gets binned instead of being (with relatively simple knowledge and care) repaired. Cheap, easily disposable items are becoming more common than expensive items made to be fixed, but more importantly, to last.

I might just be pontificating, but I do think that the people of today have forgotten how to live. We take too much dependence on the services around us, which only makes it all the more easier to control us.
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2018, 06:19:15 am »
The fact that everybody here is talking about this today is proof that the flat earthers have won.

Screwing with someone is only worthwhile so long as they react.

I don't think so at all. The "Flat Earthers" haven't won anything, unless it's a contest on who can be the nuttiest. They are an absolute laughing stock. Yes, we are talking about it, but it's not putting them in a good light.

We talk about criminals too... on just about every news channel. It doesn't mean they've won either.

Flat Earther's are like the court jesters of the scientific community. They exist for our amusement, nothing more.
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2018, 06:20:42 am »
The "Flat Earthers" are a group of people messing with you. The fact that they got the entire internet talking about them, means they have reached meme status. It's the goal, and what has been accomplished.

This is like when 4chan got a load of people to nuke their iPhones. If people truly believe it, they are casualties of the global education system.
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2018, 06:26:43 am »
The "Flat Earthers" are a group of people messing with you. The fact that they got the entire internet talking about them, means they have reached meme status. It's the goal, and what has been accomplished.

This is like when 4chan got a load of people to nuke their iPhones. If people truly believe it, they are casualties of the global education system.

I'm sure there are people taking the piss and just doing it to troll, I don't doubt that at all. But the vast majority of Flat Earthers truly believe the bullshit they are concocting. An example I've used already is the Sovereign Citizen Movement/Freeman of the Land, same sort of deal. Those guys honestly believe in their twisted and simply incorrect views of society. They are deluded to the point where it's beyond funny, it's just incredibly sad. The strinking difference is, Flat Earther's aren't known to be violent.
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2018, 06:36:03 am »
I mean, when we get right down to it, creationists still exist, and in great numbers. Right or wrong, which is at the core a subjective matter (funnily enough), there are stupider or par beliefs in even greater numbers.

For this specific instance, I believe the majority is screwing around. Unless we have some sort of way to weed out the people who are in it for the shits, there is no good way to calculate how many people believe it.

Honestly, I believe this might even just stem from nobody wanting to contest the opinions and views of kids. I'm serious, so many stupid ideas get lodged into people's minds without anybody there to give them the cognitive fiber to think past it. The examples are, of course, controversial, so if you wish I can Discord you some for private purposes, but while I enjoy controversy on the forum, it's like a public park. When kept clean, it's nice for everybody, and it relies on me to not be the guy to junk it up too bad.

To every issue, there is two parts. What is going on, and what should be done. What is going on is what we are talking about here, but what should be done is a macro-issue that is unsolvable without significant dedication to improve ourselves in our logical abilities. We all need to remember that regardless of how objective the world it, it's being viewed through eyes that are purely subjective. You need to believe a fact to be true, you can't directly tap into the universe and see all that is true, and nothing else.
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Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2018, 12:34:45 pm »
WOW!!... Thanks for all the great replies from everyone. (I'm the person who instigated it).
(I hope no-one thinks I 'support' this ridiculous 'theory', as I certainly do not !!!!)

Generally, I agree with the many comments here, regarding such statements as........
  "A lot of them may be just 'taking the piss' out of us", or
  "We shouldn't be giving them 'air' time by responding", or
  "We are just promoting them with their hit counts",  etc. etc. etc.
Actually, I 'especially' liked "TwoOfFive"'s honest responses without worrying about damn 'P.C.'
(And also surprised about 'some' peoples mention of 'creationists/religion' 'slipping-through haha..)

My (possibly) final words are basically this, though......
GENERALLY, most people, (myself included in the past), have made YouTube comments in reply to such 'supporters', along the lines of......  "You are nuts!!", or "Are you retarded !!", or "Where were you educated !!"... "How old are you"..."How can you not grasp..."
I think that a VAST MAJORITY of 'them' actually BELIEVE what they are purporting and so something is WRONG with them. And I don't think it is a matter of so-called 'intelligence'...   There are 'Savants', that couldn't even tie their Shoe-Laces, etc.....

"I" think that most people like to feel like they 'Belong' somewhere, or 'fit' within a GROUP, no matter what that 'group' is. And a lot of those also like to "buck the system", or follow non-traditional NORMS. They may appear relatively intelligent in their workplace, and are married with kids, (poor kids.. sorry!..), but don't feel that they BELONG anywhere, below the surface, so they CLING to even non-sociological 'norms'.

Someone may simply be uneducated, and not have the ability to think logically even in todays much advanced realm. However, some may be an absolute GENIUS Microbiology, or Metallurgy, or the Worlds best Accountant, or Artist.....   I for instance, have many decades of knowledge in the many technical fields I have worked in, and that has been expanded into HOBBIES covering Astronomy/Physics etc etc.
However, I would make a "PISS-POOR" Brain-Surgeon, with the proviso being that "I admit it !!!".....  So, 'they' don't UNDERSTAND about the most BASIC of physics, planets, moons, suns, gravity, orbits, spherical condensation,... but mostly 'SCALE' beyond their 'thoughts'...

So I maybe 'foolishly' thought that instead of knocking/abusing/belittling them, that we may non-judgmentally  educate them, and help them along the path of "Modern Enlightenment" in a logical way, instead ??    Then all their YouTube diatribe would have a more positive result, by educating instead of insulting, and THAT would start to predominate.    Some people are 'Fooled' by the simplest of 'Card-Tricks', but maybe we can be the 'Spoilers' by simply demonstrating how it's done !!!   ;D

And if all that fails, we can go back to ridicule & derision !!!!!!!!!
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2018, 03:02:33 am »
The more intelligent you are, the more dumb people you can count.

Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2018, 05:42:09 am »
The more intelligent you are, the more dumb people you can count.

Sad but absolutely true. There comes a time when you just stop counting and just assume that every new person you meet is a stupid one until proven otherwise.
 

Online Cubdriver

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2018, 03:04:00 am »
How we can be certain that the earth is not flat:



-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 
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Offline raptor1956

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2018, 03:31:59 am »
The more intelligent you are, the more dumb people you can count.

Sad but absolutely true. There comes a time when you just stop counting and just assume that every new person you meet is a stupid one until proven otherwise.

As I've said before, not all of the people posting FE stuff are dumb -- some are being paid to produce content with the intent of making as many people doubt everything the hear from all their leaders to statements made by scientists and, well, everyone.  The bigest player in this game is Russia with there trolling operations and army of social media types who are there to, as I said, make the largest number of people possible mistrust everything.  Nation state players are not alone, of course, as there are industry shills that pump out self serving nonsense to confuse the public.  You may think they want us to believe there view, and they do, but they will settle for us not trusting anyone, particularly those that point out the abuses the industry engages in.

One thing to note here is the number of these channels pumping out this nonsense and how many of them are fairly new.  If any of you have any experience producing videos for YouTube you will probably know there's a lot of work that goes into it, particularly if there is some production value like graphics added.  What I find interesting is just how many videos these new channels are pumping out and doing so from day one.  Many of these channels are outputting ten or more videos every week and many of them have some significant production value to it -- this is not the work of a single unpaid individual.  Again, you see this with the channels that have been around for a while and that could be explained by there being popular and being able to hire talent to help, but how do you reconcile that with the new channels that are prodigious from day one.

One more thing ... it's not limited to FE nonsense as there are channels that pump out volumes of the most insane shit around.  There are channels where they produce tons of "Transvestigations" where they pick a celebrity or someone of note and paint them as transvestites.  I know this sounds insane and it is, but it is part or a bigger game of making us doubt everything we believe and are told.  Could this simply be religious nuts -- well maybe but not so likely.  Among the people being singled out for this treatment are people like Sully Sullenberger, the pilot that landed his plane in the Hudson and saved every single life on-board.  It is highly unlikely the religious nuts would attack him, but a nation state actor would dearly love to add a trusted figure like Sully to the ever growing list of people to be doubted.

So, we have the FE types as well as the NASA hoaxers and the 911 truthers and the Chemtrail idiots and the transvestigators and, well, the number of these types is nearly without end.  While nuts of one type or another can explain some of the nonsense we see on YouTube, Facebook and Twitter that can not explain how so many of these channels pumping out this nonsense are so prolific from day one.  Someone is backing the operation and that operation requires a team skillied at video production.  Hell, the task of finding, downloading, and editing the video clips that go into many of these videos is a task bigger than a single individual, working full time, could do.  Add in the animations and graphics and the fact becomes obvious -- much of this is the work of a team of highly skilled professionals who are paid to produce it.


Brian
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 04:27:08 am by raptor1956 »
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2018, 04:42:53 am »
but how do you reconcile that with the new channels that are prodigious from day one?
Pre-production. It's possible.
It doesn't have to be yet another conspiracy theory. I could add you up to those who "make the largest number of people possible mistrust everything". Where are we when we can not even trust that people-being-dumb are dumb-people?

Offline raptor1956

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #60 on: April 26, 2018, 04:43:24 am »
I forgot to add a couple more topics that you and I would laugh at but are part of the picture of trying to get as many to doubt everything as possible.  A new theme being pushed is the idea that airplanes and many other vehicles don't actually run on fuel but instead compressed air -- I shit you not! 

And, if that isn't crazy enough for you there are channels pumping out stories that many animals are ... wait for it ... FAKE.  That's right, animals like the Tucan are fake and there over-sized bills are being added by unnamed people to fool us.  The number of animals they claim are fake is quite impressive and would suggest that the government, the deep state, is spending many tens of billions faking this stuff and doing all the chemtrials nonsense and somehow, none of the millions of people that would need to be involved have produced any evidence to support the claims.

Yes, this is insane and most of us here will see through the foolishness immediately, but a large percentage of people, for a variety of reasons, are easy meat for the disinformation artists/soldiers that are pumping this stuff out.

I will further suggest that the harm from this is much greater than most people know at this point.  The hearings in DC featuring Facebook, Twitter and Google regarding the election tampering and trolling reveal that the leaders have no idea how pervasive this is and how damaging it is already with the potential harm reaching the risk of war.  This stuff is toxic beyond plutonium!


Brian
 

Offline raptor1956

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #61 on: April 26, 2018, 04:45:06 am »
but how do you reconcile that with the new channels that are prodigious from day one?
Pre-production. It's possible.
It doesn't have to be yet another conspiracy theory. I could add you up to those who "make the largest number of people possible mistrust everything". Where are we when we can not even trust that people-being-dumb are dumb-people?


Pre-production of what?  How is an individual, without help, pumping this stuff out in volume?  How does one pre-produce hundreds of videos? 


Brian
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #62 on: April 26, 2018, 05:08:10 am »
Oh sorry that was unclear: Pre-production of entire videos. Making and uploading them private over several month and when you have enough you start to list one or two per day. Or just upload when you want to publish them
That is usually done to either kick-start a channel (who wants to subscribe to a channel with one or two videos?) or to cheat the algorithm that promotes channel that upload daily.

Offline raptor1956

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2018, 05:13:38 am »
Oh sorry that was unclear: Pre-production of entire videos. Making and uploading them private over several month and when you have enough you start to list one or two per day. Or just upload when you want to publish them
That is usually done to either kick-start a channel (who wants to subscribe to a channel with one or two videos?) or to cheat the algorithm that promotes channel that upload daily.

OK, two things ...

First, pre-production is still production so you still have to make it.  And second, they don't simply start out with a high production rate they continue with a high production rate.

Again, this isn't, for the most part, the work of individuals...


Brian
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2018, 05:21:14 am »
Any examples?

Offline raptor1956

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #65 on: April 26, 2018, 07:05:28 am »
Any examples?


Good question...

One such asshat goes by the name Hans Wormhat and his main channel was recently closed by YT.  He has another channel on YT but is also on Vimeo.  Check this out.

https://vimeo.com/user67379413

and this

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPmJjTb8_ht_vu2QReoI7lg/videos

With videos like "Volcanoes are a Hoax" or "Platypus are FAKE. Beavers With Prostetics" or "Zebras are Painted Horses / Donkeys".  I mean, it's hard not to laugh at this, but then you look in the comments and your heart just sinks.


Another asshat goes by the name MrE and he to has had his channel, or one of his channels removed by YT. 


There's Richie from Boston

https://www.youtube.com/user/27TUBGUY/videos

Some of the highlights here ...

"Most Important TRUTH there is GEO ENGINEERING" or "Chemtrails across America, nobody is spared" or "BREAKING NOW:Plasma weapon test over California"

Look at the rate at which he's putting out videos.


There are tons of these channels and YT is getting more aggressive at deleting specific videos or entire channels.


Brian
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2018, 07:25:41 am »
Any examples?


Good question...

One such asshat goes by the name Hans Wormhat and his main channel was recently closed by YT.  He has another channel on YT but is also on Vimeo.  Check this out.

https://vimeo.com/user67379413

and this

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPmJjTb8_ht_vu2QReoI7lg/videos

With videos like "Volcanoes are a Hoax" or "Platypus are FAKE. Beavers With Prostetics" or "Zebras are Painted Horses / Donkeys".  I mean, it's hard not to laugh at this, but then you look in the comments and your heart just sinks.


Another asshat goes by the name MrE and he to has had his channel, or one of his channels removed by YT. 


There's Richie from Boston

https://www.youtube.com/user/27TUBGUY/videos

Some of the highlights here ...

"Most Important TRUTH there is GEO ENGINEERING" or "Chemtrails across America, nobody is spared" or "BREAKING NOW:Plasma weapon test over California"

Look at the rate at which he's putting out videos.


There are tons of these channels and YT is getting more aggressive at deleting specific videos or entire channels.


Brian
Hans Wormhat uses screen capture techniques. No effort. Same with Richie from Boston, who you can clearly see driving through Boston, I assume.

No effort involved. Can be spit out in an hour. Probably was.

Offline G7PSK

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #67 on: April 26, 2018, 08:02:53 am »
All these crap videos about Earth being flat no moon landings or free energy etc are just click bait there to get money from you tube, best thing is to never watch them however amusing it may be to do so, starve the idiots out.

Has any one else noticed how most of these flat earthers and conspiracy believers hail from the USA. It is either the education system in the US or all the nut jobs of the world have emigrated there or more likely it is the any thing to for a dollar attitude that prevails.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #68 on: April 26, 2018, 10:00:26 am »
Has anyone done any research on the FE club?
If they are that stupid and deceived, then who pays their rent and puts food on the table?

As mentioned earlier this is nothing new, they've been at it for the last 200 years or more, a lot of rich farts in on it too, 
and all the centuries before Copernicus flogged his theories.

Did the FE club hire a crystal ball and tipped off the internet and Youtube were coming, so they set up their FE 'trolling' machine decades ago?

Come on guys, there's an angle here with the FE crowd, otherwise they wouldn't be so stubborn,
do some homework so the sh!t sticks

i.e. 'follow the money...'

 

Offline jonovid

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #69 on: April 26, 2018, 10:19:28 am »
if the earth was flat someone would try to inflate it:-DD
Hobby of evil genius      basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2018, 10:57:45 am »
...or make a pizza  8)
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2018, 12:26:23 pm »
All these crap videos about Earth being flat no moon landings or free energy etc are just click bait there to get money from you tube, best thing is to never watch them however amusing it may be to do so, starve the idiots out.

Has any one else noticed how most of these flat earthers and conspiracy believers hail from the USA. It is either the education system in the US or all the nut jobs of the world have emigrated there or more likely it is the any thing to for a dollar attitude that prevails.
Yes they probably are click-bait. Mostly for us skeptics.

You say you notice how it seems they all come from the USA. That is because:
A. Your country has very little people in it compared to the USA.
B. The USA has approximately 46,598,000 people with an IQ under 85, while your country has only app. 9,377,000. The probability to come across an idiot from america is 4.97 times higher.
C. You only get english content recommended on youtube/google and don't see the nut-jobs from any other country. (They exist)
D. I think the people in the USA are generally less trusting of the sciences. (https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-mistrust-of-science)

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #72 on: April 26, 2018, 04:43:53 pm »
I forgot to add a couple more topics that you and I would laugh at but are part of the picture of trying to get as many to doubt everything as possible.  A new theme being pushed is the idea that airplanes and many other vehicles don't actually run on fuel but instead compressed air -- I shit you not!

These people must have never owned any vehicles...or any type of machines with engines for that matter...beyond AirHogs toys. They've clearly never used gasoline... ::)

The triggering thing is that compressed air vehicles are real science they're shitting on into conspiracy crap, making it look bad! :rant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed-air_vehicle
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
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Online james_s

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #73 on: April 26, 2018, 04:48:18 pm »
C. You only get english content recommended on youtube/google and don't see the nut-jobs from any other country. (They exist)


I can attest to that. When I visited the UK I distinctly remember walking past an old bearded guy who was standing on the sidewalk energetically preaching a mix of religion and conspiracy theories to anyone who would listen.

It's not hard to believe we have more of that sort in the US though, intelligent/educated people tend to flee the middle and especially southern middle areas for the coasts leaving a disproportionately high number of less intelligent people behind to breed. A friend of mine lives in Nebraska and occasionally laments that he didn't also flee when he was younger.
 

Offline LaserSteve

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #74 on: April 26, 2018, 05:45:36 pm »
I Was standing next to a Chrysler Gas Turbine powered car at a Museum a few weeks ago.  The definitive experts (Ex Chrysler, Ex McDonald Douglas) were there checking on their "baby" and granted this technician a private tour behind the ropes.  I guess I asked all  the right questions. 

   A fellow walked up with his family , having drove to see the car for two days.  The  "Internet" expert was telling the increasingly angry turbine specialist that he was "wrong" on a number of things, i.e. number of the cars still existing, engine performance, fuel efficiency. number of cars still in running order, cycle times to failure, etc. 

When told to prove his claims, the quack kept saying, "Its on the Net, Its On the Net, Its on site X, that is on site Y) and he was saying this to group who had direct  access to the Chrysler Archives.  He could not cite any published reports directly.

Amazing how fast that museum  rope got closed, once I stepped out.

I blame the fact that while perhaps 75% of materials on the internet are reasonably correct, this gives credibility to the other 25% in the minds of un-educated people. Moral of the story.  It amazes me that so many people assume anything on the net is Holy Truth and Gospel.

BTW, while the turbine would run on nearly any liquid or gaseous fuel once started with kerosene, on Jet A, it does about 8 MPG.
The goal was alternative fuels, not turbines for the sake of turbines. The inefficiency was attributed to poor performance in the fluid based  torque converter.  The converter was a stock item, and not optimized.  Expecting a generation one centrifugal gas turbine to be super efficient is folly.
Yet the quacks claim the product was shelved to protect the petroleum industry.  In reality the lab program was sold to what became  General Dynamics and a future derivative of the multi-fuel engine powers the M1A tank.  The reason being Chrysler's financial condition at the time would not sustain developmental products.

Google "deep underground military bases" if you want to see even kookier conspiracy theories. 

Steve
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 06:09:05 pm by LaserSteve »
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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2018, 12:47:55 am »
... some are being paid to produce content with the intent of making as many people doubt everything the hear from all their leaders to statements made by scientists and, well, everyone.  The bigest player in this game is Russia with there trolling operations and army of social media types who are there to, as I said, make the largest number of people possible mistrust everything.

I see you get the central point which most people are unable to grasp. The original creators of most of these nutty concepts are actors, in the employ of larger entities with deep motives. But most people (even here on eevblog) are sufficiently propagandized in their thinking, to automatically reject anything that implies 'conspiracy.' Even though 'conspiracy' is actually how 80% of all political and economic action works.

However, in blaming Russia you're falling for another propaganda stream. Sure the USSR gov was pretty evil. (And who created the USSR anyway, and why? Another forbidden topic.) But if you think the current Russian gov is just like the old USSR, you're woefully mistaken. Exactly who the worst offenders are these days, is a topic that would definitely blow the 'no politics' fuse on eevblog. So I'm only going to offer a quote:

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false."
-- William Casey, Director of Central Intelligence. An observation by the late Director at his first staff meeting in 1981.
Source (via the net, not personal email):
Quote
Barbara Honegger
I am the source for this quote, which was indeed said by CIA Director William Casey at an early February 1981 meeting of the newly elected President Reagan with his new cabinet secretaries to report to him on what they had learned about their agencies in the first couple of weeks of the administration.
The meeting was in the Roosevelt Room in the West Wing of the White House, not far from the Cabinet Room. I was present at the meeting as Assistant to the chief domestic policy adviser to the President. Casey first told Reagan that he had been astonished to discover that over 80 percent of the 'intelligence' that the analysis side of the CIA produced was based on open public sources like newspapers and magazines.
As he did to all the other secretaries of their departments and agencies, Reagan asked what he saw as his goal as director for the CIA, to which he replied with this quote, which I recorded in my notes of the meeting as he said it.  Shortly thereafter I told Senior White House correspondent Sarah McClendon, who was a close friend and colleague, who in turn made it public. 
Barbara Honegger  bshonegg@gmail.com

My observation: There's no mention of Regan making any objection to that. It's my opinion that the public perceptions of virtually all leader's character and beliefs, are constructed falsehoods. You can only deduce their true nature by observing their actions and the ultimate effects. Which sometimes take a long time to become apparent. Or a lot of digging.
Anyway, in this case Reagan apparently accepted that statement, implying he shared that understanding of core objectives.

As for why..  One of the fundamentals of propaganda and manipulation, is that the less your targets understand of the real world, and how things work (social, political and economic constructs, and even basic physics and logic), then the easier they are to manipulate and the less ability they have to a) comprehend the objectives of their rulers, and b) form effective strategies to resist those objectives (which are very rarely in the best interests of the people.)
Stated another way: Fill people's minds with broken memes (in the original sense of 'meme', as defined by Richard Dawkins) and they will spend all their time thinking broken, useless thoughts. Leaving no effective mental capacity spare to think about you, and what you are trying to achieve. Ha ha... what has happened to the concept of 'meme' is a fine example of deliberate sabotage of useful conceptual tools.

Relevant:
"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists."
-- J. Edgar Hoover, FBI Director 1924-1972, quoted in The Elks Magazine (August 1956).
(More quotes: http://everist.org/archives/links/__Freedom_quotes.txt )

Incidentally, your point about the volume of output being a useful 'tell', is accurate. Another one is the fanciness of websites. Look at the source code, and think about how much time and skill were required to construct it, vs who/what the site claims to be. Yet another one is usernames. Virtual personas in entities running large astro-turfing operations, tend to have user names that say a lot about the worldview and (lack of) imagination of the guys paid to sit in those seats.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 12:51:36 am by TerraHertz »
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Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #76 on: April 27, 2018, 02:15:40 pm »
To....
  Distelzombie,
  raptor1956,
  TerraHertz,
(and  Cubdriver  not to mention many others xxx)

I sincerely thank you three for your intelligent and meaningful contributions here !
I think you may all be correct to an extent, though to break down all that was said, would
be too hard to comment on individually.... It has made me rethink my proposal !!!!!!

I've 'agonized' over replying specifically, not wanting to open a 'Hornets-Nest', that I
didn't even think existed the other day....  "Once warned xx"

So to 'LIGHTEN' this post a bit, I loved the response from 'Cubdriver', about what would
happen as a result of a 'Cat' on a supposedly 'flat-earth' .....  (I'm a cat lover/understanderer).
Interestingly to me, 'Cubdriver' s  sub-tag description says........
"If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway..."  xxxx

I would like to add to that, and quote what I was told many decades ago, that.....
"If first you don't succeed......  then remove ALL evidence that you tried !!!!! "
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2018, 03:20:16 am »
I would like to add to that, and quote what I was told many decades ago, that.....
"If first you don't succeed......  then remove ALL evidence that you tried !!!!! "

We've seen that in action.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #78 on: April 28, 2018, 03:21:45 am »
Full post for context:

To....
  Distelzombie,
  raptor1956,
  TerraHertz,
(and  Cubdriver  not to mention many others xxx)

I sincerely thank you three for your intelligent and meaningful contributions here !
I think you may all be correct to an extent, though to break down all that was said, would
be too hard to comment on individually.... It has made me rethink my proposal !!!!!!

I've 'agonized' over replying specifically, not wanting to open a 'Hornets-Nest', that I
didn't even think existed the other day....  "Once warned xx"

So to 'LIGHTEN' this post a bit, I loved the response from 'Cubdriver', about what would
happen as a result of a 'Cat' on a supposedly 'flat-earth' .....  (I'm a cat lover/understanderer).
Interestingly to me, 'Cubdriver' s  sub-tag description says........
"If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway..."  xxxx

I would like to add to that, and quote what I was told many decades ago, that.....
"If first you don't succeed......  then remove ALL evidence that you tried !!!!! "
 

Offline boffin

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #79 on: April 28, 2018, 03:49:54 am »
Crazy how nature does that

 

Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #80 on: April 28, 2018, 07:49:33 am »
Crazy how nature does that

Don't be ridiculous. All planets, including Earth, are round flat disks of course. ::)
 

Offline newbrain

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #81 on: April 28, 2018, 10:18:23 am »
Crazy how nature does that

Don't be ridiculous. All planets, including Earth, are round flat disks of course. ::)
Exactly. It depends on your reference frame.
https://youtu.be/VNqNnUJVcVs?t=402
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Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #82 on: April 28, 2018, 04:12:25 pm »
Just because someone believes in flat Earth or over-unity generation isn't sufficient to justify calling them unintelligent. That's a fallacy. Ironically it is a fallacy that critics are blinded by just as the flat Earthers are blinded by their own false notions.

The best way to deal with these fringe lunatics is to ignore them. If you give them an opponent you only validate their views in their own minds. They think they are custodians of a truth that they are duty bound to reveal. If you make them think it is being suppressed you simply fuel their belief.

Either that or they are simply attention seekers and there again ignoring them is the best response.
That is probably true for those who play around with over-unity-stuff, but come on... :D The most basic reasoning skill should stop you from thinking earth is flat. You just HAVE to be stupid. Either that or I'm totally unable to put myself mentally in the same position in which I would believe something so crazy, but still have mostly the same mental capabilities. (That would actually be a very good thing, I think. It means I'm safe. xD)

Woa, thanks newbrain! I was once getting exasperated with trying to get the Forum to let me use a youtube-link without making it an embedded player. For the same reason: I wanted to link to a certain time in it. Didn't think about that. :)

Online james_s

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #83 on: April 28, 2018, 06:32:16 pm »
The flat earth thing doesn't really seem that much more ridiculous than over-unity stuff, they're both completely ridiculous to the point that I have a hard time considering someone who believes in either to be intelligent.
 

Offline raptor1956

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #84 on: April 28, 2018, 09:48:28 pm »
There are now just as there have always been and always will be ... stupid people, but truly the worst are people with higher intelligence that appear to choose stupidity as a way of life.  I mean, it's hard to fault the genuinely stupid that lack the facility to understand even basic stuff, but when you have people that speak coherently and can put together a video with dialog and graphics and even animation this isn't the work of the merely stupid but rather more the choice of someone that knows better and chooses to do this.  The success of some of the FE and other conspiracy channels, which appears to be threatened recently by changes in policy and policing by YT, but back in the recent day there was an audience for this stuff and when there's an audience there will be people that choose to provide content to satisfy them.

One of the channels that was pumping out FE and other conspiracy nonsense at an industrial output but has recently been expelled from YT was a group of channels under the umbrella of "Russianvids" and the story of that channel and the person believed to be behind it is a fascinating one.  It's interesting in that it's almost impossible to believe that someone like Ben P. Liashenko, reported to be a member of Russian intelligence, could gain so large and loyal a following among members of the American right with the very name of the channel spelling out there source.  We live in strange times...


Brian
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #85 on: April 29, 2018, 12:45:53 am »
Crazy how nature does that


This depiction is so wrong. As any flat earther worth its salt knows, a flat earth is not like a slice of bread, but more like a like tortilla.
 ;D ;D ;D ;D
 

Offline boffin

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #86 on: April 29, 2018, 01:19:00 am »
Those that think the earth is really a round flat tortilla vs a flat piece of toast, have probably had their thinking altered by the government's chemtrail spraying.
 
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Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #87 on: April 29, 2018, 06:24:06 am »
There are now just as there have always been and always will be ... stupid people, but truly the worst are people with higher intelligence that appear to choose stupidity as a way of life.  I mean, it's hard to fault the genuinely stupid that lack the facility to understand even basic stuff, but when you have people that speak coherently and can put together a video with dialog and graphics and even animation this isn't the work of the merely stupid but rather more the choice of someone that knows better and chooses to do this.  The success of some of the FE and other conspiracy channels, which appears to be threatened recently by changes in policy and policing by YT, but back in the recent day there was an audience for this stuff and when there's an audience there will be people that choose to provide content to satisfy them.

One of the channels that was pumping out FE and other conspiracy nonsense at an industrial output but has recently been expelled from YT was a group of channels under the umbrella of "Russianvids" and the story of that channel and the person believed to be behind it is a fascinating one.  It's interesting in that it's almost impossible to believe that someone like Ben P. Liashenko, reported to be a member of Russian intelligence, could gain so large and loyal a following among members of the American right with the very name of the channel spelling out there source.  We live in strange times...


Brian
Interesting!

I was searching "russianvids" one of the first results that came up is a website with the usual anti-government crap all over it's face. But it seems to be anti canadian government.
http://www.earthlyfireflies.org/russianvids-youtube-channel-exposed/

It doesn't have an impressum so I made a whois-search. The Information used to register this domain points to a property that looks like it's run by military guys, (Attached pictures one and two) but that could just be the context poisoning my judgement. I mean, just read their crazy anti-government declaration:
http://www.earthlyfireflies.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Declaration-of-Non-Obedience-To-Government.pdf

First, to prove it's relevance to the thread, one of it's appendixes is a proof that the earth is flat. Seriously. Why that has to be written in a declaration you're supposed to send to the government - I don't know.  :-//
Anyway. This declaration it written by Olga Klimova and Viatcheslav Klimov. I assume they run the website and live at this place or the place is just choosen to appear very "nationalist", which is probably way more accurate. (This is all easily available public information, so I don't assume it's in any way bad to post it here.)

This page is CLEARLY run by russians. - I mean it has just the right amount of anti-russia stuff to nullify their pro russia-stuff.
In this declaration are Appendixes listing all their achievements, that include like:
Putin tells a joke about a spy (earthlyfireflies.org)
www.earthlyfireflies.org/learn-from-putinhimself-who-is-ruling-the-world/
Trancework 4 - World Hypnotic Conspiracy (earthlyfireflies.org)
www.earthlyfireflies.org/trancework-4-russialeads-hypnotism-business-in-the-world/
Excerpt: "This maybe the best case of your future, when Russia takes over…
From early Soviet times, Russia has focused and developed mind control technologies, including the mass hypnosis."
Well. Maybe I just want to see involvement of the russian government. It's so boring in this world.


Also there's a link to a page of them "proofing" Steven Hawking is a robot doll made by the government.
http://www.earthlyfireflies.org/stephen-hawking-hoax/
It's so funny! :D  :popcorn:

Also they're at war with LiveLeak who are not accepting their videos:
"LiveLeak keeps all videos with ZERO views, (just like YouTube and vid.me keep our videos invisible now, after we released “The GodFather” and “The TranceWork” videos). But then, LiveLeak.com, to not to make their bias too obvious, decided to add by 30 fake views on one video every ~6 hours."

They also want you to read Tolstoy, but only THEIR version of tolstoy. The on the corrected in mind of "the original Tolstoy’s logic".
http://www.earthlyfireflies.org/translation-errors-gospel-in-brief-by-lev-tolstoy/
I can't decide who is correct in this case. But if a random website tells me that the usual translation of Tolstoys work is incorrect and gives it's own I get skeptic. If that website is this website, I get VERY skeptic.
Look at this! They turned it into Anti-Semitism:
#45 Tolstoy: Прошел человек из чужого, вражеского народа, самарянин. Этот самарянин увидал иудея и не подумал о том, что иудеи ни во что считают самарян, а пожалел изби ого иудея.

Original: A man from a foreign, enemy nation happened by next, a Samaritan. This Samaritan saw the Jew and did not think about the feelings of Samaritans toward Jews, and simply felt sorry for the beaten Jew.

Their version: A man from a foreign, enemy nation happened by next, a Samaritan. This Samaritan saw the Jew and did not think that Jews view Samaritans as lowly, but simply felt sorry for the beaten Jew.
…You should conduct yourself the same way with… those who consider you nothing.

Number 46 is also all turned around.


« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 06:34:28 am by Distelzombie »
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #88 on: April 29, 2018, 06:45:19 am »
Those that think the earth is really a round flat tortilla vs a flat piece of toast, have probably had their thinking altered by the government's chemtrail spraying.

Have we also inadvertantly discovered the shape of their brains? >:D
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Offline raptor1956

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #89 on: April 29, 2018, 08:09:19 pm »
Quote

I see you get the central point which most people are unable to grasp. The original creators of most of these nutty concepts are actors, in the employ of larger entities with deep motives. But most people (even here on eevblog) are sufficiently propagandized in their thinking, to automatically reject anything that implies 'conspiracy.' Even though 'conspiracy' is actually how 80% of all political and economic action works.

However, in blaming Russia you're falling for another propaganda stream. Sure the USSR gov was pretty evil. (And who created the USSR anyway, and why? Another forbidden topic.) But if you think the current Russian gov is just like the old USSR, you're woefully mistaken. Exactly who the worst offenders are these days, is a topic that would definitely blow the 'no politics' fuse on eevblog. So I'm only going to offer a quote:

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false."
-- William Casey, Director of Central Intelligence. An observation by the late Director at his first staff meeting in 1981.
Source (via the net, not personal email):




Actually, if you go back over what I've written I point out that it ISN'T just the Russians doing this.  Yes, Russia is the dominant played of the nation state actors and by a long mile, but there are domestic actors that are also doing this -- actors such as industry lobbyists and political think tanks that are also looking to confuse the public and, most importantly, get the public to focus on stupid shit and not think about the terrible stuff there sponsors are doing.

So, Russia is the big played of the nation state actors but are hardly alone in the larger sense.  What makes the Russian actions somewhat more concerning is that they are doing this everywhere in the west with a goal not simply to confuse but to splinter the west, whereas the domestic special interests tend to be more focused on there smaller audience and issue.  Additionally, although the games being played may appear juvenile and it is, the fact is all politics is juvenile -- all politics is like a child's schoolyard with the main difference being the vocabulary used. 

Now, Google (YT) and Facebook and Twitter and the rest have profited from all of this and appear to have decided, early on, to let anyone do anything so long as they buy ads or drive viewership.  That does appear to be changing a bit with YT as many of the channels I've been talking about have been expelled.  Of course, the cost for a nation state or lobbyist group to do this stuff is, relatively speaking, really cheap, so when one channel is closed three more will open and keeping up with it is not easy.


Brian
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 08:11:34 pm by raptor1956 »
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #90 on: April 29, 2018, 08:27:50 pm »
Quote
However, in blaming Russia you're falling for another propaganda stream.

Yes, he is.

  Yes, Russia is the dominant played of the nation state actors and by a long mile,

Still with the cable news talking points?  There is no evidence that Russia's activity in this regard has been anything more than peanuts compared to the US's.

The US has been the dominant player in media manipulation and propaganda for decades - as well as direct involvement in manipulating other countries elections and/or overthrowing democratically elected governments unfriendly to US corporate interests.  It just goes along with being an empire (as other past empires have done).  Now that the empire is in it's last, dying stages, the efforts have just become more shrill and desperate. The new Mcarthyism is just the loudest and most obvious effort to deflect blame and distract the sheeple.  We need a boogeyman, don't ya know...
 

Offline raptor1956

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #91 on: April 29, 2018, 08:40:07 pm »
Quote
However, in blaming Russia you're falling for another propaganda stream.

Yes, he is.

  Yes, Russia is the dominant played of the nation state actors and by a long mile,

Still with the cable news talking points?  There is no evidence that Russia's activity in this regard has been anything more than peanuts compared to the US's.

The US has been the dominant player in media manipulation and propaganda for decades - as well as direct involvement in manipulating other countries elections and/or overthrowing democratically elected governments unfriendly to US corporate interests.  It just goes along with being an empire (as other past empires have done).  Now that the empire is in it's last, dying stages, the efforts have just become more shrill and desperate. The new Mcarthyism is just the loudest and most obvious effort to deflect blame and distract the sheeple.  We need a boogeyman, don't ya know...


Well I can guess what side of the political aisle you reside on but whatever your political views the fact that you can see but not see what's going on is ... sad.

BTW, I didn't vote for Hillary or Trump so I'll spare you that straw-man...


Brian
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #92 on: April 29, 2018, 08:59:22 pm »


Well I can guess what side of the political aisle you reside on but whatever your political views the fact that you can see but not see what's going on is ... sad.

Well that assumption just fully demonstrates your indoctrination.  I strive to be influenced by facts - not political innuendo - no matter how often it is repeated in the corporate media.

I am no fan of our current idiot in chief. I just don't need to look outside our country to find a reason to blame his election on.

Quote
I didn't vote for Hillary or Trump

Neither did I - both were awful choices.   Both major parties have the same basic corrupt agenda. The false red/blue sports team dichotomy is there to keep the people's eye off the ball.
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #93 on: April 29, 2018, 10:36:04 pm »
Yeah, how can you even say you have a democracy with only two possible parties to choose from? That's more like a binary-dictatorship than democracy.

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #94 on: April 29, 2018, 10:41:30 pm »
Is this about the recent fixed two horse race ?   Like all the previous ones... :popcorn:
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 10:43:11 pm by Electro Detective »
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #95 on: April 30, 2018, 02:01:46 am »
Yeah, how can you even say you have a democracy

Sadly, we can't. US is an oligarchy not a democracy.

To be fair, most other western "democracies" aren't much better.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #96 on: April 30, 2018, 04:26:29 am »
This thread is heading for oblivion.
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #97 on: April 30, 2018, 04:41:38 am »
This thread is heading for oblivion.

*sigh* ::)

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Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #98 on: April 30, 2018, 06:41:57 am »
Yeah, how can you even say you have a democracy with only two possible parties to choose from? That's more like a binary-dictatorship than democracy.

Remember the 60s, 70s and early 80s in Germany? We had two large parties to choose between, and a third small one which made the choice for us. ;)
 

Offline raptor1956

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #99 on: April 30, 2018, 07:22:08 am »


Well I can guess what side of the political aisle you reside on but whatever your political views the fact that you can see but not see what's going on is ... sad.

Well that assumption just fully demonstrates your indoctrination.  I strive to be influenced by facts - not political innuendo - no matter how often it is repeated in the corporate media.

I am no fan of our current idiot in chief. I just don't need to look outside our country to find a reason to blame his election on.

Quote
I didn't vote for Hillary or Trump

Neither did I - both were awful choices.   Both major parties have the same basic corrupt agenda. The false red/blue sports team dichotomy is there to keep the people's eye off the ball.


If you want to be taken seriously I'd suggest avoiding the use of the word "sheeple" -- it is popular with a political group that likes to shout about fake news while watching nothing but.   Also, I'm no fan of any of the cable news outlets.

As to the US being the great Satan ... yes, the US has certainly engaged in bad actions in, particularly central America in support of companies like United Fruit, but I don't believe I said the US was an angel.

This topic is about the Flat Earth movement and the people behind it, we could go on about the stupid second war in Iraq and other bad things done by the USA, but that isn't the topic of this thread now is it.  On the subject of disinformation which Flat Earth and Chemtrails and a myriad of other things are about we don't have just the word of US Intelligence agencies that are all saying pretty much the same thing but that analysis is supported by the intelligence agencies pretty much everywhere else -- but I guess they could all be controlled by the CIA.  Interestingly, Google, Facebook and Twitter have all admitted to being unwitting assistants to these acts and recent actions by YT would suggest they are finaly getting serious about them.

So, I'm not hallucinating this, the intelligence services around the world aren't making it up, and the corporations that have been the playground where these actions have taken place have all admitted that it has happened and that it continues.


Brian
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #100 on: April 30, 2018, 10:23:28 am »

...If you want to be taken seriously I'd suggest avoiding the use of the word "sheeple" -- it is popular with a political group that likes to shout about fake news while watching nothing but.   Also, I'm no fan of any of the cable news outlets.

As to the US being the great Satan ... yes, the US has certainly engaged in bad actions in, particularly central America in support of companies like United Fruit, but I don't believe I said the US was an angel.

This topic is about the Flat Earth movement and the people behind it, we could go on about the stupid second war in Iraq and other bad things done by the USA, but that isn't the topic of this thread now is it.  On the subject of disinformation which Flat Earth and Chemtrails and a myriad of other things are about we don't have just the word of US Intelligence agencies that are all saying pretty much the same thing but that analysis is supported by the intelligence agencies pretty much everywhere else -- but I guess they could all be controlled by the CIA.  Interestingly, Google, Facebook and Twitter have all admitted to being unwitting assistants to these acts and recent actions by YT would suggest they are finaly getting serious about them.

So, I'm not hallucinating this, the intelligence services around the world aren't making it up, and the corporations that have been the playground where these actions have taken place have all admitted that it has happened and that it continues.


Brian


Before this thread gets nuked...   

If you want to be taken seriously with all those incinuations and expect anyone to buy it, please furnish some sources,

especially why you think or believe "the intelligence services around the world aren't making it up"

Do you have connections, or work there, or deliver pizzas and give them a free coke and garlic bread for insider info...  :-// 


Otherwise it wreaks of Youtube conspiracy theories, media circus BS,  and perhaps a bit of puff puff pass too    ;D


 
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #101 on: April 30, 2018, 10:26:59 am »
As to the US being the great Satan
No one here said that..
Quote
.. yes, the US has certainly engaged in bad actions in, particularly central America in support of companies like United Fruit, but I don't believe I said the US was an angel.
You’re minimizing. The historical record is that we’ve interfered in many, many countries elections, This dataset shows that the US interfered in 81 elections between between 1946 and 2000 (vesus 36 by the Russians).

More recent examples include the 2002 election in Ecuador and even the 2012 and 2017 French elections.

Quote
but that isn't the topic of this thread now is it.
True, you introduced this political topic in reply 13 of this thread.

Quote
  Interestingly, Google, Facebook and Twitter have all admitted to being unwitting assistants to these acts
These corporations have a vested interest in maintaining US hegemony and the status quo. Do you really think that they are unbiased arbitrators?
Quote
and recent actions by YT would suggest they are finaly getting serious about them.
Yes, they are demonitizing US based journalists and others who dare to question the official narratives parroted by corporate media. ::)

Quote
I'm not hallucinating this, the intelligence services around the world aren't making it up, and the corporations that have been the playground where these actions have taken place have all admitted that it has happened and that it continues.

Yes, but it’s a matter of scale. Of course Russia makes some effort at influencing our politics. All large countries do the same. Yet despite extensive efforts to root out the extent of this, the evidence is that Russias efforts have been tiny - for example only $100k on Facebook spending -only $47k pre election could be found (multiple sources for this, easily found with a search).

In contrast, how much did the US and other western countries spend to install Yeltsin as Russia’s president in 1996?

How much do you imagine the US intelligence agencies are currently spending to inflence Russian politics?

Does that make us evil? No more evil than other empires throughout history

The truth is that the current “Russiagate” hysteria is a deliberate effort to shift blame and divert attention. It also helps that it provides further justification for military spending and further erosion of civil liberties.

Repeating a lie over and over in an effort to make it the “truth” (as politicians and the corporate media are doing) is very Goebellesque. Please don’t aide them by repeating the lie.

And as Chomsky has pointed out
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 11:12:07 am by mtdoc »
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #102 on: April 30, 2018, 12:19:29 pm »
Nicely done.   :-+

We're back on topic!
 
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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #103 on: April 30, 2018, 01:30:07 pm »
Somewhat relevant to the number of Flat Earth believers, ie useful idiots:
Jordan Peterson | The Most Terrifying IQ Statistic
Collecting old scopes, logic analyzers, and unfinished projects. http://everist.org
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #104 on: April 30, 2018, 01:45:12 pm »
Jordan Peterson | The Most Terrifying IQ Statistic

I found it most terrifying how these guys keep switching seats in the middle of the interview. Scary stuff... :P
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #105 on: April 30, 2018, 07:27:12 pm »
Jordan Peterson | The Most Terrifying IQ Statistic

I found it most terrifying how these guys keep switching seats in the middle of the interview. Scary stuff... :P

The person who edited this video has an IQ below 87. For sure.
 

Offline Johnboy

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #106 on: April 30, 2018, 07:53:25 pm »
In a conventional airliner (the larger types, i.e. 747, 767) the passengers cannot see what the pilots see from the cockpit. Passengers can't see much from the window seat, either, really. The lateral perspective is over within seconds as the airliner climbs, and soon they are in the clouds at cruising altitudes. Not much to see from back there to do the job of refuting a strongly-held belief, especially if you're not looking for one.

The real question to my mind is, then... how many "Flat Earthers" hold pilot's licenses? Earth's curvature would be considerably less deniable from the cockpit perspective.

I wonder whether the airlines would be willing to combat disinformation by instituting a "Take a Dope to Work Day" for commercial pilots...
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #107 on: April 30, 2018, 08:10:46 pm »
how many "Flat Earthers" hold pilot's licenses?

I sincerely hope the answer is "none". I trust that they still learn to navigate without a GPS, and it does help to appreciate that non-Euclidean geometry applies...
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #108 on: May 01, 2018, 06:38:54 pm »
Jordan Peterson | The Most Terrifying IQ Statistic

I found it most terrifying how these guys keep switching seats in the middle of the interview. Scary stuff... :P

The person who edited this video has an IQ below 87. For sure.
The info is right though. He didn't cut or anything wrongly together there.

Offline niladherbert

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #109 on: May 02, 2018, 10:35:25 am »
how many "Flat Earthers" hold pilot's licenses?
Anyone smart enough to pass those tests is smart enough to know that the earth is round and is just having a laugh at those that try to correct them
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #110 on: May 02, 2018, 12:35:01 pm »
how many "Flat Earthers" hold pilot's licenses?
Anyone smart enough to pass those tests is smart enough to know that the earth is round and is just having a laugh at those that try to correct them

Don't say that too fast:
Flat Earth 737 pilot gets grounded
https://flateartheducation.wordpress.com/2017/10/02/flat-earth-737-pilot-gets-grounded/

It made even some headlines in German publications

This flat earth stuff BS has nothing to do with IQ!
As I said earlier in this thread, we have a family member that totally fell for this and his IQ is definitely above 100.


There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #111 on: May 02, 2018, 02:04:12 pm »
Sometimes, I say to my 'Missus'... (late at night)....
"There was movement at the Station, as the Colt from old Regret had got away !!! "...
She knows what I mean haha.... being basically along the lines of....
"Enough crap has been discussed tonight darling, so let's finish this glass of bubbly,
put away the Guitar, and go to bed now darling !!  (And so we do !!  xoxox)

I 'guess' I'm trying to put this 'topic' to BED xoxox
However, we know that will never happen. But we can ONLY TRY !!!!
If you have read this from the beginning, you would realize that I was aware of the
probable 'Futility'.... but I thought it could be worth a 'try'.....
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #112 on: May 02, 2018, 02:18:39 pm »
I 'guess' I'm trying to put this 'topic' to BED xoxox

You started it!  :P

"Die ich rief, die Geister, werd' ich nun nicht los" --
one of the few Goethe quotes they still teach in school here...
 
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Offline Brumby

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #113 on: May 02, 2018, 03:01:24 pm »
The only way this thread will pass into the forgotten annals will be when interest wanes.

It's like a bush fire.  One person can start it but one person can't stop it.  It will only die when the fuel runs out.
 
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Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #114 on: May 02, 2018, 03:42:53 pm »


"Die ich rief, die Geister, werd' ich nun nicht los" --

I love Goethe. When I first read "Everything we encounter leaves traces behind. Everything contributes imperceptibly to our education." I was hooked. The more I read about him the more I understand how come he is considered one of the history's brightest minds.

Goethe is also one of the reasons that I strive to read German. Nothing is better than read an author in his/her mother tongue. "Alles, was uns begegnet, läßt Spuren zurück. Alles trägt unmerklich zu unserer Bildung bei."

I cannot find your Goethe quote in my collection of Goethe quotes. That means that my collection is incomplete.
I've tried to translate the meaning into English, but somehow the imperfect translation: "I called the Ghosts, I will not let go now", doesn't make very much sense to me.

Would you kindly elaborate on the quote? I would appreciate it
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 03:44:35 pm by schmitt trigger »
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #115 on: May 02, 2018, 04:32:20 pm »
how many "Flat Earthers" hold pilot's licenses?
Anyone smart enough to pass those tests is smart enough to know that the earth is round and is just having a laugh at those that try to correct them

Don't say that too fast:
Flat Earth 737 pilot gets grounded

https://flateartheducation.wordpress.com/2017/10/02/flat-earth-737-pilot-gets-grounded/

It made even some headlines in German publications

This flat earth stuff BS has nothing to do with IQ!
As I said earlier in this thread, we have a family member that totally fell for this and his IQ is definitely above 100.

Then there are those of us that know IQ scores are kind of BS, and don't always reflect actual intelligence. Just because someone can pass a test doesn't mean their not still dumb as dirt. Flat Earthers are still morons, or have somehow become dumb enough to believe in it, because once you become a conspiracy theorist you abandon all education or actual logic. The longer they believe in huge conspiracies, the lower their actual usable intelligence becomes, regardless of whether they can still pass an IQ test. Failure to properly reason is a lack of intelligence.

The only way this thread will pass into the forgotten annals will be when interest wanes.

It's like a bush fire.  One person can start it but one person can't stop it.  It will only die when the fuel runs out.

It will only die when all the Flat Earthers do. >:D
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Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #116 on: May 02, 2018, 04:36:35 pm »
I 'guess' I'm trying to put this 'topic' to BED xoxox

You started it!  :P

"Die ich rief, die Geister, werd' ich nun nicht los" --
one of the few Goethe quotes they still teach in school here...
Is your quote missing a "mehr" after "nicht"?
I have to say i'm not a fan of Goethe, and they wrote so weird in their time, that I genuinely don't know.

Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #117 on: May 02, 2018, 04:39:55 pm »
Would you kindly elaborate on the quote? I would appreciate it

The structure of the sentence is a bit unusual, certainly for modern ears, to get the rhythm right. It translates to: "The ghosts I called, I can't get rid of them any more."

It's from the "Zauberlehrling", the sorcerer's apprentice. The apprentice uses a time when the master is out to try some spells on his own -- namely, to tell the broom to get water, since that's an unpleasant chore he wants to avoid. And of course he can't figure out how to stop the spell, and the broom ends up flooding the cabin... Quite an entertaining poem, which my son actually got to learn by heart in 4th grade!

EDIT: I just realize that there was probably no need to summarize the contents of the ballad. Well known from Disney's Fantasia, starring Mickey Mouse as the apprentice...  ;)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 04:56:10 pm by ebastler »
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #118 on: May 02, 2018, 05:02:08 pm »
Is your quote missing a "mehr" after "nicht"?

While I translated it as "can't get rid of them anymore" myself, there is indeed no "mehr" in the German original. I admit to Googling after I read your question, since I was unsure...

Quote
I have to say i'm not a fan of Goethe, and they wrote so weird in their time, that I genuinely don't know.

Not everyone's taste, for sure. But turning this thread from flat earth to Goethe would certainly be an improvement!

Maybe give the "Zauberlehrling" another chance and read it to yourself. It's a nice rhythm and flow!
 

Offline GerryBags

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #119 on: May 02, 2018, 05:02:22 pm »
It translates to: "The ghosts I called, I can't get rid of them any more."

It is certainly applicable to many of the self-created enemies The West in general has been fighting for at least a couple of hundred years. The Mujahadeen in Afghanistan; The Taliban in Afghanistan; The ba'athists in Iraq; etc. etc.. Even the Soviet Union would never have risen to super-power status (if you accept they ever really did) without the assistance of Western individuals and organisations in everything from its inception to its survival through WW2 and the Cold War.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #120 on: May 02, 2018, 05:14:19 pm »
Becoming a pilot means an extraordinary amount of learning by rote, I found it difficult as a result, as particularly when you're older you tend to look at things much more analytically, and resist accepting things without understanding the concepts.

What I struggle with in the case of the 737 pilot is that when they took the exams, some of the explanations and rules of thumb are fundamentally based on a spherical earth, including things like weather prediction and time keeping. I guess you could pass the exams without those, but you'd not get 100%.

In practice though, particularly on shorthaul with no transoceanic segments, such as in a KLM 737, the pilot is being guided between arbitrary waypoints from the ground and won't have any means of directly relating to a spherical earth, it might as well be flat.

I can see why she was grounded, she sounded like she had some personal issues regarding her son's health, and the way she dealt with it led her to other conspiracy theories. No way would you take a risk with someone's state of mind like that. Still, I'm sure she'll get a decent pension out of it.
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #121 on: May 02, 2018, 05:22:29 pm »
nicht + mehr === no + more.  Synonym to anymore.
I get it now.  :-+ That is how come the original sentence did not  initially make sense to me.

But when one is a great poet, one can take liberties with the language.... ;)

Thanks for the thorough explanation.
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #122 on: May 02, 2018, 05:36:56 pm »
Is your quote missing a "mehr" after "nicht"?

While I translated it as "can't get rid of them anymore" myself, there is indeed no "mehr" in the German original. I admit to Googling after I read your question, since I was unsure...

...

Maybe give the "Zauberlehrling" another chance and read it to yourself. It's a nice rhythm and flow!
The longer i juggle it in my head, the more it makes sense without.

Is it naive? I hate to read naive books 'n stuff if there's no reason for it. I mean I did read some children's books, and some stories for older public, and there are cases where the former are more bearable than the latter.

Take a look at Les Fleurs du Mal from Charles Baudelaires, it's great! I can't read french, so I have two translations to german. (I forgot the one I couldn't find too. Maria... Ma...meh) From Stefan George. Absolutely great! The other one was more of direct translation.

It is certainly applicable to many of the self-created enemies The West in general has been fighting for at least a couple of hundred years. The Mujahadeen in Afghanistan; The Taliban in Afghanistan; The ba'athists in Iraq; etc. etc.. Even the Soviet Union would never have risen to super-power status (if you accept they ever really did) without the assistance of Western individuals and organisations in everything from its inception to its survival through WW2 and the Cold War.
If you don't have enemies you have no friends.

Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #123 on: May 02, 2018, 07:13:20 pm »
Maybe give the "Zauberlehrling" another chance and read it to yourself. It's a nice rhythm and flow!

Is it naive? I hate to read naive books 'n stuff if there's no reason for it. I mean I did read some children's books, and some stories for older public, and there are cases where the former are more bearable than the latter.

Naive -- hmm... It is one of Goethe's most popular works, I guess, and quite accessible. But don't get hung up on the Mickey Mouse image; there's more to the poem than that version! ;)

It is a simple story, and of course one can read a rather conventional moral into it, when the apprentice is put back into his place in the end. But the aspect I enjoy is really the rhythmic flow -- simple catchy rhythms within the stanzas, but with recurring sudden breaks where it switches into other patterns.

Les fleurs du mal is probably rather deeper than the Zauberlehrling. But hey, the Zauberlehrling is only a short ballad -- just read it; it can't cause serious harm  ;)
 

Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #124 on: May 02, 2018, 08:57:56 pm »
Flat earth nonsense is particularly stupid since it can actually be easily disproven by anyone (unlike many other conspiracy theories like 9/11 theories for example). One way is to look at ships as they pass over the horizon, you will notice how the top of the ship appear before the lower parts of the hull (when the ships are coming towards you, the hull disappears first when the ship is going away), you might need binoculars but otherwise no other expensive or arcane equipment is needed. Anyone who is able to make a trip to the ocean or a large lake can do it. This has been well known for thousands of years so it really shouldn't be news to anyone.

I hope the flat earthers might actually be having a positive effect by illustrating how dumb a lot of the conspiracy nonsense is, and that people will be more inclined to listen to experts and rational debate if there are people like that around that they want to distance themselves from. But I might just be naively optimistic again.

I used to think they were just trolling, but I don't anymore (the majority, of course there are some who are just trolling). I know too many people who should know better but who still believe all kind of stupid stuff: e.g. that man made climate change is some sort of conspiracy, or that carbs are poison (usually at the same time as they are stuffing themselves with carbs), homeopathy, creationism, wishful supernatural stuff, and so on.

That Peterson guy is right, a lot of people are just really really stupid, relatively speaking, and unfortunately even the smartest people aren't that smart either in the absolute sense, i.e. in terms of acting like rational beings. That we have come up with the theory of relativity (which a lot of people doesn't believe in despite overwhelming evidence) or quantum physics, and similar wonders, is mostly thanks to trial and error, dumb luck and the ability to pass on knowledge to new generations, and most technological/scientific progress only happened in the last blink of an eye of humanity's existence here on earth, and it certainly wasn't thanks to you or me or the vast majority of people.

There won't be any progress unless people accept that this is what human nature is like (i.e. not as rational as we think we are) and that we have to come up with systems and social structures that bring out the good sides of humanity rather than the bad ones. We can't just hope people will be reasonable and rational because we are simply not wired that way.
 

Offline Johnboy

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #125 on: May 03, 2018, 12:24:21 am »
Don't get me wrong. I feel that a certain amount of skepticism about "conventional wisdom" is healthy. I once got into a regrettable argument with a very attractive female after she snidely called me an "empiricist" for disagreeing with her take on the inherent validity of religious texts (she was a junior missionary).

I've come to believe that some people desperately need to believe in something that they can fully wrap their mind around (not a sphere, in this case). Some things seem simply too complicated for some people to accept, so a simpler (or at least more esoteric) model explains those questions, and the concept of possessing "secret" and "hidden" knowledge is one that has always been a major draw for those who create. Yet it can also be destructive, of course. It's a mixed bag.

"He that is slow to believe anything and everything is of great understanding, for belief in one false principle is the beginning of all unwisdom."
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #126 on: May 03, 2018, 03:08:39 am »
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire

Relevant to the proposition that there actually are people working to make many people believe in absurdities.
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #127 on: May 03, 2018, 09:56:55 am »
It's amazing that there are no Flat or Slightly Curved Earthers here to defend their faith or belief    ???

Or maybe there are, and waiting for the right moment to pump the Round Earthers with their reality?    >:D

As I've stated at another FE post/thread, there must be cash in it otherwise why bother persisting with dis-information?  :-//

Do the Flearthers have a Patreon thing happening?   gotta eat, right?  :popcorn:
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #128 on: May 03, 2018, 11:32:08 am »
Do the Flearthers have a Patreon thing happening?   gotta eat, right?  :popcorn:
They're called "Flattards" And sometimes they Indiegogo campaigns and stuff for whatever reason... Like: Hey, finance me so that I'll be able to travel into space to see for myself."

Offline Johnboy

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #129 on: May 03, 2018, 02:06:01 pm »
Regarding pilots, I followed the link HighVoltage posted and was astonished by the following declaration:

There are a lot of newcomers to Flat Earth, who have a hard time accepting it mainly because they cannot see how all the pilots and scientists be part of a such conspiracy.They think someone will blow the whistle.
   And some do.There are paleontologists who proved that the so-called dinosaur bones have soft tissue, and sometimes even remains of blood vessels.And those paleontologists did not stopped to just proving that, but also presented those proofs to their higher echelons.They were asked to stop, and if not, they will be fired.Some of them did not stopped…and they got fired.After that they went public in presenting their findings.
   I believe that at this point in time, a lot of pilots and scientists are flat earthers, but they know that it will cost them the job if they open up about Flat Earth.However, times are changing, and changing rapidly.The Flat Earth community is HUGE.It is the biggest community out there.Bigger than gay people.And it keeps growing, at a faster pace than a year ago, when it was already exponentially growing.
   The time will come (very soon, less than 2 years) when our community will represent a significant percentage of worldwide adult population (at least 35-40 % by 2020, if not sooner) and not if, but when this will happen, a truckload of pilots and scientists will open up publicly supporting Flat Earth.


Let's see... bandwagon sales approach, check. Ad hoc statistical argument, check. Appeal to diversity (and implication of persecution), check. Allegations of widespread secrecy on the part of the scientific community, check.

How many pilots do you know? Do they ever look at each other meaningfully when the topic of navigation comes up, or kick each other under the table as a reminder to keep silent?

That video is also a scream, as it's loaded with "persuasive" imagery.  :palm:

 

Offline Seph.b

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #130 on: May 03, 2018, 04:42:38 pm »
The earth up of hexagonal tiles. Anyone that has play a turn based strategy game knows that.
 

Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #131 on: May 03, 2018, 04:46:20 pm »
It was revealing to hear that pilot explain how she became a flat earth believer. Her son got sick after vaccination, so she lost faith in authority. She then started reading flat earth nonsense on the internet that asked questions about phenomena she didn't know the answer to/couldn't explain. She then realised that most of what she knew was things she had just taken at face value from authoritative sources. Once she had started questioning authority why should she not question everything she had been told and why not believe these people saying the earth is flat instead?

I think that is exactly the same reason people fall for things like creationism. They have been going to school and listened to one figure of authority (the teacher) preaching about Darwinism and the scientific method. Then later they go to church and listen to another figure of authority preaching about creationism. Why is the former better than the latter?

I think that one major problem with school (the ones I know of at least) is that they just teach the children to respect authority and imitate/memorize things. Because of that it is perfectly natural for people to just replace that authority with another in the future, especially when they inevitably realise that the teacher was wrong at times.

Most things we learn are not obvious or intuitive though, if it was we wouldn't have to learn it. So we unfortunately have to accept what we are told. Trying to verify everything ourselves is so resource intensive that it's not really an option (how many can verify the existence of the Higgs boson themselves?), we have to resort to trusting authoritative sources. (Which in turn makes the quality of those sources incredibly important).

What schools should also be doing though is to teach people WHY they should believe the things they are told (the scientific method), and not just randomly made up BS, since that is not at all obvious to most people. Even many scientists doesn't understand the scientific method, they just repeat a formula they have learned to imitate. (Feynman wrote a paper once about what he called cargo cult science). I would say it's more important to make people understand how science works and why (and to what extent) they should believe in scientific results than it is to teach them the actual theory.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 05:11:50 pm by apis »
 

Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #132 on: May 03, 2018, 04:53:21 pm »
The earth up of hexagonal tiles. Anyone that has play a turn based strategy game knows that.
And since there is no way to tile a sphere with hexagons it follows that the earth can not be round!
 

Offline Seph.b

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #133 on: May 03, 2018, 04:56:25 pm »
The earth up of hexagonal tiles. Anyone that has play a turn based strategy game knows that.
And since there is no way to tile a sphere with hexagons it follows that the earth can not be round!

Finally someone with critical thinking skills.


/s just in case.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #134 on: May 03, 2018, 05:11:40 pm »
Hmmm, if you use hexagons and pentagons you get pretty round like a sphere.
Or at least nobody that I know of, has complained that soccer ball is not round.
So, may be each hexagon and each pentagon is flat, LOL


 
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Offline BillB

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #135 on: May 03, 2018, 05:26:08 pm »
I smell  a money-making opportunity!  Obviously, flat-earthers wouldn't rely on GPS systems so I plan on bringing to market the F.E.P.S (Flat Earth Positioning System) (Patent-Pending!)

It will look and operate exactly like the false GPS units, except the fake "global" coordinate calculations will be replaced by more accurate flat earth coordinates.  While the numbers may appear very similar, trust me, they will be highly accurate for traveling on our flat Earth.

 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #136 on: May 03, 2018, 08:31:51 pm »
Hmmm, if you use hexagons and pentagons you get pretty round like a sphere.
Or at least nobody that I know of, has complained that soccer ball is not round.
So, may be each hexagon and each pentagon is flat, LOL

Technically, the Earth is made of tectonic plates, which, while curved, do have edges. So the Earth can be said to have edges where plates collide (mountain ranges and trenches). >:D
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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #137 on: May 03, 2018, 11:18:02 pm »
Speaking of tilings of Earth, and projections, here's a very nice graphical interactive site.
  https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/overlay=temp/orthographic=-229.13,4.86,169

It's a weather visualization site, that in itself is beautiful. But it has a surprisingly large range of projection options.
Click on the "Earth" at lower left. (It's a hamburger pop-up menu. Click on "Earth" again to hide it.)
At the bottom is the Projection menu. Mouse-over the options listed, to see their full names. Try them, and try rolling the Earth around  (mouse and click-drag on the world) to see how they work.

Of course none of this would make any impression on a Flat-Earther. But it's fun.

For actual weather, https://www.ventusky.com/?p=-36.7;149.6;3&l=rain-3h&t=20180504/00
is more useful, since it includes predictive timeline options.
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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #138 on: May 03, 2018, 11:29:53 pm »
The earth up of hexagonal tiles. Anyone that has play a turn based strategy game knows that.
And since there is no way to tile a sphere with hexagons it follows that the earth can not be round!

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/16808254/nets-of-geodesic-spheres
Sure there is! (You forgot to specify whether the hexagons must be symmetrical.)
Edit: Oops! No, there are still pentagons. Curses.

Btw, google images: geodesic tessellation sphere
Pretty!
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 11:42:43 pm by TerraHertz »
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Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #139 on: May 04, 2018, 12:11:27 pm »
Thanks to 'ebastler' & 'Brumby', and all others since my last comment !  :)
Yep... I did start it, and was only speaking tongue-in-cheek  :D
It has been an interesting variation since then, as I'm learning German too.
They have sayings like others do of course...  My favorite that I learnt from a German friend was....
    "sprich durch die Blumen"  (I think?!), literally meaning   "speaking through the flowers". (?)
He explained it thus.....   "Imagine there is a big bunch of flowers in front of your face, that inputs
the maybe crude & unflattering words you are actually saying, but the other side of the flowers is
emanating something more beautiful and sensual that the 'lady' might prefer to hear!! "   hahha..
I love (and aspire) to that !!!  Ain't language grand !!!!!   :D

OH!!!... and I loved the question about 'Flat-Earth' 'PILOTS' !!!!!

And  P.S.   When I quoted......
"There was movement at the Station, as the Colt from old Regret had got away !!! "
For the non-Aussies, that was a quote from one of our famous poets,......
 "Banjo" Paterson (1864 - 1941)     "The Man From Snowy River".       
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 12:17:37 pm by GlennSprigg »
 

Offline ChrisLX200

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #140 on: May 04, 2018, 12:57:56 pm »
I have little tollerance for idiots like Flat Earthers, other conspiracy theorists and not to mention the variety of religious nutters. There was a time in our pre-history when such stupidity or gross errors in judgement were fatal and we as a species are better for that. One could only wish for such a limitation these days because clearly our collective mental processes are suffering..
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #141 on: May 04, 2018, 02:37:22 pm »
I have little tollerance for idiots like Flat Earthers, other conspiracy theorists and not to mention the variety of religious nutters. There was a time in our pre-history when such stupidity or gross errors in judgement were fatal and we as a species are better for that. One could only wish for such a limitation these days because clearly our collective mental processes are suffering..

You are on a slippery slope towards "let's go and kill all the idiots" there...  :-\
 
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Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #142 on: May 04, 2018, 02:39:00 pm »
I have little tollerance for idiots like Flat Earthers, other conspiracy theorists and not to mention the variety of religious nutters. There was a time in our pre-history when such stupidity or gross errors in judgement were fatal and we as a species are better for that. One could only wish for such a limitation these days because clearly our collective mental processes are suffering..
I don't think there ever was such a time (alright, there probably wasn't any vegans back then but), around here they used to sacrifice humans in swamps to appease the gods. That didn't stop them (well, except for the people ending up in the swamp... but chances are that was the better part of the population). Mosquitoes and rats aren't smart but they are still more evolutionary successful than humans. Evolution isn't something that should be idealised, it's just an explanation for the origin of species.

What we need (i.e. what would improve life for everyone) is systems that reward rational and ethical behaviour. Society still just reward greed and ignorance, bullies and sociopats.
 

Offline ChrisLX200

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #143 on: May 04, 2018, 03:02:49 pm »
I have little tollerance for idiots like Flat Earthers, other conspiracy theorists and not to mention the variety of religious nutters. There was a time in our pre-history when such stupidity or gross errors in judgement were fatal and we as a species are better for that. One could only wish for such a limitation these days because clearly our collective mental processes are suffering..

You are on a slippery slope towards "let's go and kill all the idiots" there...  :-\

I was not inferring any action by a third party, just that responsibility should lie entirely with the people concerned and that failure to think things out clearly should lead to (natural) consequences for them. It would improve our gene pool considerably - even perhaps encourage responsibilty for what we are doing to our own planet. Nature is very unforgiving.

As a society we are over-protective of potential risk, folk take it for granted things will be safe (and sue someone if they get hurt).
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 03:08:31 pm by ChrisLX200 »
 

Offline ChrisLX200

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #144 on: May 04, 2018, 03:03:56 pm »
I have little tollerance for idiots like Flat Earthers, other conspiracy theorists and not to mention the variety of religious nutters. There was a time in our pre-history when such stupidity or gross errors in judgement were fatal and we as a species are better for that. One could only wish for such a limitation these days because clearly our collective mental processes are suffering..

If evolution were to determine those that you wish to be rid off were unnecessary then don't you think it would have? Yet they exist.

Clearly something about different ways of thinking has some benefit to the species for that reason alone. And you weren't told.

I'd apply the same argument to any group you can name that you think we'd be better off without. Because they exist there is a benefit.

It is not WHAT they believe. It is that they believe it that is important.

There's time yet. Nature can be patient up to a point.
 

Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #145 on: May 04, 2018, 03:34:50 pm »
I have little tollerance for idiots like Flat Earthers, other conspiracy theorists and not to mention the variety of religious nutters. There was a time in our pre-history when such stupidity or gross errors in judgement were fatal and we as a species are better for that. One could only wish for such a limitation these days because clearly our collective mental processes are suffering..

If evolution were to determine those that you wish to be rid off were unnecessary then don't you think it would have? Yet they exist.

Clearly something about different ways of thinking has some benefit to the species for that reason alone. And you weren't told.

I'd apply the same argument to any group you can name that you think we'd be better off without. Because they exist there is a benefit.

It is not WHAT they believe. It is that they believe it that is important.
Diversity has always been a big evolutionary advantage since it makes it much more likely that at least some individuals will be able to adapt to sudden changes in the environment.
 

Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #146 on: May 04, 2018, 03:59:02 pm »
I have little tollerance for idiots like Flat Earthers, other conspiracy theorists and not to mention the variety of religious nutters. There was a time in our pre-history when such stupidity or gross errors in judgement were fatal and we as a species are better for that. One could only wish for such a limitation these days because clearly our collective mental processes are suffering..

You are on a slippery slope towards "let's go and kill all the idiots" there...  :-\

I was not inferring any action by a third party, just that responsibility should lie entirely with the people concerned and that failure to think things out clearly should lead to (natural) consequences for them. It would improve our gene pool considerably - even perhaps encourage responsibilty for what we are doing to our own planet. Nature is very unforgiving.

As a society we are over-protective of potential risk, folk take it for granted things will be safe (and sue someone if they get hurt).
Well, I'm going to continue to help my fellow men. Not because cultures where people cooperate and help each other out are going to be much more successful in the long run (although I also believe that to be true), but because what matters isn't the gene pool but rather the well being of sentient beings.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #147 on: May 04, 2018, 06:52:25 pm »
Some of these idiots even spend lots of money and build their own rocket...

ABC Action News
California man launching homemade rocket to prove Earth is flat





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Offline ChrisLX200

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #148 on: May 04, 2018, 06:57:16 pm »
Some of these idiots even spend lots of money and build their own rocket...

ABC Action News
California man launching homemade rocket to prove Earth is flat



Notice it is to 'Prove the falsehood' - not to test the hypothesis one way or the other.  :palm:
 

Offline Seph.b

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #149 on: May 04, 2018, 07:07:33 pm »
Some of these idiots even spend lots of money and build their own rocket...

ABC Action News
California man launching homemade rocket to prove Earth is flat



Notice it is to 'Prove the falsehood' - not to test the hypothesis one way or the other.  :palm:

That guy was going this rocket project for years before he found the deep pockets of the flat earthers. I don't really think he cares at all about there cause, but if they will give him money he will pretend to. Just one kook taking advantage other other kooks.
 

Online james_s

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #150 on: May 04, 2018, 09:03:24 pm »
You'd think if flat earthers have deep pockets they would just hire a hot air balloon to go up high, or put a good quality camera on a weather balloon, those are not even terribly expensive, especially if you fill with hydrogen which is much less wasteful than using precious helium in a non-manned craft.
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #151 on: May 04, 2018, 09:10:06 pm »
You'd think if flat earthers have deep pockets they would just hire a hot air balloon to go up high, or put a good quality camera on a weather balloon, those are not even terribly expensive, especially if you fill with hydrogen which is much less wasteful than using precious helium in a non-manned craft.

This would presume that the flat earthers have common sense  ::)
 

Offline Seph.b

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #152 on: May 04, 2018, 09:40:55 pm »

This would presume that the flat earthers have common sense  ::)

Many of them also do not think rockets can really go to space, because they don't have anything to push off of in a vacuum.

Somehow they think a steam powered rocket does not have that limitation though. Baffling to say the least.

I also only meant deep pockets compared to the steam rocket guy. Not that they control much wealth.


On a different sub-topic:

I love when people use the charts of all the satellites in orbit to prove there are not satellites or they would all be hitting each other. Apparently they think the charts are to scale and the satellites must be the size of the cities or larger.

Of course I don't think there any very many satellites in space, but that is because I consider LEO to still be earth. I mean if you largest problem to keeping a stable orbit is atmospheric drag I don't think you are really out of the atmosphere.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #153 on: May 04, 2018, 10:11:46 pm »
Even if LEO was “still Earth” there is plenty going on to disprove any flat earth theory. For example...

How does a polar orbiting LEO satellite work in flat earth theory, considering all of the observations made, particularly in the southern hemisphere.

How do the flat earth models explain satellite pass prediction models?

How does flat earth theory explain Doppler frequency shift correction in communications links?

How does satellite ranging work in the flat earth models?

As an example, if I access a remote groundstation for a LEO, due to Doppler, the frequencies I use are different to those that I use locally. These frequencies are directly calculated from a spherical earth model and the relative speeds of each observer compared to the satellite.

When ranging, if I fire up a signal to a non-regenerative transponder, there is a delay in the correlated return signal directly proportional to the relative distance to the satellite from me. In LEOs, this delay is different depending on where the observer is located, and changes as the satellite passes. They’re also modelled using a spherical earth.

FWIW, I’ve written satellite pass and Doppler prediction software for embedded systems in the dim and distant past. Without a spherical model (in fact, for longer term accuracy, we use very very slightly non-spherical models like WGS84, but it certainly ain’t flat!), they simply would not work.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #154 on: May 05, 2018, 12:29:58 am »
If the Earth was a slightly curved affair on a flat solid base, it may explain why Flat Earthers and Round Earthers believe they are both right

There's your answer guys, easy peasy, put away the protractors and math   8)


IMHO:  Flat Earthers and Round Earthers need to hit the pubs occassionally for a buddy up n chat  :blah: :rant: >:( :-[ 
and maybe agree to...ummm not agree  ;D

still beats listening to sportstards, wishful thinking betters and their 'tips',
and the usual neanderthal blab fests about politics, and TV pussy they'll never score  :palm: :palm:

 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #155 on: May 05, 2018, 01:30:16 am »
Even if LEO was “still Earth” there is plenty going on to disprove any flat earth theory. For example...

How does a polar orbiting LEO satellite work in flat earth theory, considering all of the observations made, particularly in the southern hemisphere.
Easy: You attach the satelite on a string and hang it from the ceiling.

Offline GerryBags

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #156 on: May 05, 2018, 01:49:59 am »
You'd think if flat earthers have deep pockets.....

The odds of a genuine flat-Earther being given a high-paid job or making a success of themselves through entrepreneurial spirit seems more far-fetched than the idea of the Earth actually being flat.
 
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Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #157 on: May 05, 2018, 02:04:36 am »
If looking at objects like ships popping up over the horizon doesn't convince them, they could look and compare pictures of the celestial sphere on the north and south hemisphere and note that its movement isn't compatible with a flat earth unless you come up with something really contrived. It makes perfect sense if the earth is spherical though. But I don't think you can convince them with rational arguments, if that was the case they wouldn't believe that stuff to begin with.

There are a lot of people who really believe the earth is controlled by shapeshifting lizards as well. And lots of people think that 9/11 was a false flag operation or that global warming is a conspiracy to make people pay more taxes, etc. Humans just aren't very rational.

You'd think if flat earthers have deep pockets.....

The odds of a genuine flat-Earther being given a high-paid job or making a success of themselves through entrepreneurial spirit seems more far-fetched than the idea of the Earth actually being flat.
There are plenty of people who have created successful businesses that are based purely on pseudoscience. Alternative medicine like homeopathy for example. You don't have to be smart or rational to become a successful entrepreneur, the most important characteristic for a successful businessman is to be able to convince others, i.e. have a lot of charisma (like Trump).
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #158 on: May 05, 2018, 04:17:48 pm »
We interrupt your regularly scheduled crap thread to bring you this important meme...



 >:D Now back to your thread...
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 
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Offline Bassman59

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #159 on: May 05, 2018, 05:42:42 pm »
I have little tollerance for idiots like Flat Earthers, other conspiracy theorists and not to mention the variety of religious nutters. There was a time in our pre-history when such stupidity or gross errors in judgement were fatal and we as a species are better for that. One could only wish for such a limitation these days because clearly our collective mental processes are suffering..
I don't think there ever was such a time (alright, there probably wasn't any vegans back then but), around here they used to sacrifice humans in swamps to appease the gods. That didn't stop them (well, except for the people ending up in the swamp... but chances are that was the better part of the population). Mosquitoes and rats aren't smart but they are still more evolutionary successful than humans. Evolution isn't something that should be idealised, it's just an explanation for the origin of species.

What we need (i.e. what would improve life for everyone) is systems that reward rational and ethical behaviour. Society still just reward greed and ignorance, bullies and sociopats.
Humans have made evolution irrelevant, at least for our species and those which we find useful (Pets, food crops). Why? We have medical science, and the weakest who would have previously died before reproducing now can live, and live well. “Weak" is only physical; humanity now values mental strength too (e.g., Stephen Hawking).

Of course the economics of this imply that those who can afford medical care and quality food will survive. So it’s not survival of the fittest, it’s survival of the richest.

 

Online james_s

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #160 on: May 05, 2018, 08:17:05 pm »
It could be argued that it's still survival of the fittest, maybe it turns out that an ability to amass wealth is a trait that makes one more fit to survive in the environment. Humans are part of evolution, animals often kept as pets have themselves evolved to be favored and provided for by humans. Evolution is not controlled by a logical plan, it is a simple matter of traits of any sort that increase one's likelihood of breeding are favored.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #161 on: May 06, 2018, 04:02:13 am »
Wow, just wow! The expression on the hosts' faces is priceless, as if to say "You guys are complete nut bags". They are almost humouring them.

As for the flat-earther's, watch them stumble and stammer their way around an "explanation" yet still manage to talk absolute shit in an almost convincing way.

 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #162 on: May 06, 2018, 04:26:30 am »
It could be argued that it's still survival of the fittest, maybe it turns out that an ability to amass wealth is a trait that makes one more fit to survive in the environment. Humans are part of evolution, animals often kept as pets have themselves evolved to be favored and provided for by humans. Evolution is not controlled by a logical plan, it is a simple matter of traits of any sort that increase one's likelihood of breeding are favored.

"Survival of the fittest" is only part of evolution. It also involves mutation and natural selection. That is, in a generation, some members of a species may have a random mutation. If that mutation is beneficial (white fur for baby harp seals, say), that seal is more likely to survive and reproduce. A mutation that is not beneficial (black fur), means that the baby seal will more likely be seen and eaten by a polar bear so it can't reproduce.

I highlight natural above because breeding the wolf species into dogs is a classic example of artificial selection. Humans (and we're the only species that can do this) choose to allow the friendly and curious wolf to live among us, and the wolves that attacked humans were killed (or driven away). So the wolves we liked were bred for various traits, and now we have many species of dog.

And you say it yourself: evolution doesn't have a plan. Humans do have plans. (The Cylons had a plan, too.) And that is why I say that humans are "post-evolution."

(Modern agriculture is based on this artificial selection.)

 
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 04:31:40 am by Bassman59 »
 

Offline Elasia

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #163 on: May 06, 2018, 04:39:16 am »
Flat earthers, vaxxers, etc, etc is only a symptom of a much larger problem. The internet has unlocked the ability for these ideas to spread to like minded people and be reinforced. But thats just the tip of the iceberg

Big data has opened up the ability to target these people who are as it where more susceptible to such 'programming' on a mass scale.  A new age of propaganda has washed over humanity on such a scale that it can very well be dangerous or rather already is.  Whats happening in america right now is pretty insane... nothing good will come of this in the coming decades.
 

Online james_s

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #164 on: May 06, 2018, 05:20:09 am »

"Survival of the fittest" is only part of evolution. It also involves mutation and natural selection. That is, in a generation, some members of a species may have a random mutation. If that mutation is beneficial (white fur for baby harp seals, say), that seal is more likely to survive and reproduce. A mutation that is not beneficial (black fur), means that the baby seal will more likely be seen and eaten by a polar bear so it can't reproduce.

I highlight natural above because breeding the wolf species into dogs is a classic example of artificial selection. Humans (and we're the only species that can do this) choose to allow the friendly and curious wolf to live among us, and the wolves that attacked humans were killed (or driven away). So the wolves we liked were bred for various traits, and now we have many species of dog.

And you say it yourself: evolution doesn't have a plan. Humans do have plans. (The Cylons had a plan, too.) And that is why I say that humans are "post-evolution."

(Modern agriculture is based on this artificial selection.)

It could be said though that humans are part of the natural world, we're part of evolution. While we have the mental capacity to control these sort of things, are we really in control or is the natural world just reacting to our traits? Do we choose to keep the friendly wolves causing them to survive and gradually morph into dogs, or do the wolves who figure out how to coexist with humans benefit from gaining the protection and providing offered by human companions, giving those friendlier wolves an evolutionary advantage? Humans have plans, but things don't always go as planned, and who's to say other animals don't plan things? Humans like to differentiate themselves from other animals but we are animals too, just with larger brains than most. Otherwise we're not all that different, especially from a genetic standpoint we have a lot more in common with other animals than not.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #165 on: May 06, 2018, 05:31:33 am »
If the Flat Earthers can back up their BS, and partially correct in what they say, what difference would it make to anyone?

Besides quicker plane flights and less instrumentation required for aircraft and undersea craft to compensate for the upward/downward curvature, as they 'claim' 
what difference will it really make to the average Joe and Zoe on the ground?

If it was a Flat Earth concept for centuries before the 1500s AD and everyone did ok up to that point traveling across land and sea, trading in goods, coke, slavery, piracy, jacking nations, murdering, pillaging   
and conducting dumbass wars without a problem, then what's the big deal about it ? 
Would those backwards savages dressed like clowns pretending to be civilized have cared whether the Earth was Flat or Round
as long as they got to where they were headed to stuff their pockets and chests with illegally obtained gold, silver and or dubloons and shekels?

What is really interesting is if Flearthers are so stupid and or out of touch with reality, how do they put food on the table and afford nice computers and video editing software,
and have all that spare time to pump the viewers with impressively organized 'proof' of a Flat Earth and the Round Earth 'agenda', with irritating fonts, transitions and music   |O
Who pays for that?

Some of the FE 'evidence' appears legit, yet the Round and Curved Earthers refuse to accept anything they present, much less debate it and win
 

It's all starting to smell badly, one can only wonder how many shitty low life creatures are in on this game in both camps for whatever their childish reasons are    :-- :--

« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 05:33:16 am by Electro Detective »
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #166 on: May 06, 2018, 05:47:02 am »
If the Flat Earthers can back up their BS, and partially correct in what they say, what difference would it make to anyone?

*snip*

Some of the FE 'evidence' appears legit, yet the Round and Curved Earthers refuse to accept anything they present, much less debate it and win

The difference being, we as a human race like to evolve, educate and correct what's wrong. It's in our nature.

Also, what part of their "evidence" is even remotely legitimate? All of their countless arguments can be disputed and disproved in a few sentences by anyone who has even a rudimentary understanding of astronomy, physics and science in general. It's difficult to accept bullshit when we are taught to think logically and objectively.
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #167 on: May 06, 2018, 07:25:58 am »
Besides quicker plane flights and less instrumentation required for aircraft and undersea craft to compensate for the upward/downward curvature, as they 'claim' what difference will it really make to the average Joe and Zoe on the ground?
The globe earth has a finite area so everybody has to fight for someplace to live.
On the flat earth, once you can get past the ice wall, there is infinite land. Currently the land beyond the ice wall is the exclusive playground for NASA and the illuminati.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #168 on: May 06, 2018, 09:10:20 am »
On the flat earth, once you can get past the ice wall, there is infinite land. Currently the land beyond the ice wall is the exclusive playground for NASA and the illuminati.

So those that live "closest to the edge of the earth" enjoy higher house prices? Maybe I should invest there.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #169 on: May 06, 2018, 09:38:14 am »
On the flat earth, once you can get past the ice wall, there is infinite land. Currently the land beyond the ice wall is the exclusive playground for NASA and the illuminati.

So those that live "closest to the edge of the earth" enjoy higher house prices? Maybe I should invest there.


Too cold mate, invest in Surfers Paradise or Bondi   :-+



If the Flat Earthers can back up their BS, and partially correct in what they say, what difference would it make to anyone?

*snip*

Some of the FE 'evidence' appears legit, yet the Round and Curved Earthers refuse to accept anything they present, much less debate it and win

The difference being, we as a human race like to evolve, educate and correct what's wrong. It's in our nature.

Also, what part of their "evidence" is even remotely legitimate? All of their countless arguments can be disputed and disproved in a few sentences by anyone who has even a rudimentary understanding of astronomy, physics and science in general.
It's difficult to accept bullshit when we are taught to think logically and objectively.



Apparently much of their FE argument relies on the premise that the "rudimentary understanding of astronomy, physics and science" taught was BS over the last few decades
or just enough legit science and physics taught so the believer would be indoctrinated to buy into anything 'taught' later on
as was "taught to think logically and objectively" is just icing on the deception cake

FE club also maintains that high end scientists are on a fat paycheck to keep up the BS,
and advised by their benefactors to look for work elsewhere, losing their status and awards,
and resort to servicing and cleaning latrines instead, if they don't want to play the game anymore

These are tall claims  :o  and FE sound confident to back it up

The pay must be good on both sides of the fence it seems, many wimps must cringe at the thought of hosing down dunnies rather than have a go at saving what's left of their integrity and honesty,
...if these sad tossers ever had any to begin with   :palm:


Surely there must be a handful of Flearthers here to get this thread really pumping

Come on guys, out with it, if you've got the goods, this community will give you a fair go    :clap:


...they bloody well better, this BS vs BS business needs to be sorted  !  ;D


 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #170 on: May 06, 2018, 12:08:22 pm »

If evolution were to determine those that you wish to be rid off were unnecessary then don't you think it would have? Yet they exist.

Understood mate, except that there has not been enough TIME for 'evolution' to take care of them yet !!!
Modern 'knowledge' of such 'facts' only goes back 100/200/300 etc years... Not millions...
so they are 'bound to abound' still in this day & age.  I just (foolishly) thought that maybe 'we' can 'edurmicate' ( 8) )
them, instead of attacking them. However, I guess I need to be a realist until 'Darwin' catches up with them !!   :)
 

Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #171 on: May 06, 2018, 02:15:55 pm »
It could be argued that it's still survival of the fittest, maybe it turns out that an ability to amass wealth is a trait that makes one more fit to survive in the environment. Humans are part of evolution, animals often kept as pets have themselves evolved to be favored and provided for by humans. Evolution is not controlled by a logical plan, it is a simple matter of traits of any sort that increase one's likelihood of breeding are favored.
The individual isn't important, it's the survival of the fittest traits (not individuals) that matters, so breeding isn't really necessary. Otherwise it would be hard to explain things like worker bees or old people. (Thus the title of Dawkins famous book "the selfish gene".)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 02:43:12 pm by apis »
 

Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #172 on: May 06, 2018, 02:28:09 pm »
If evolution were to determine those that you wish to be rid off were unnecessary then don't you think it would have? Yet they exist.
Understood mate, except that there has not been enough TIME for 'evolution' to take care of them yet !!!
Modern 'knowledge' of such 'facts' only goes back 100/200/300 etc years... Not millions...
so they are 'bound to abound' still in this day & age.  I just (foolishly) thought that maybe 'we' can 'edurmicate' ( 8) )
them, instead of attacking them. However, I guess I need to be a realist until 'Darwin' catches up with them !!   :)
We joke about Darwin awards and such, but the unfortunate truth is that evolution doesn't normally favour intelligence. Our large brains require huge amounts of energy to maintain and typically doesn't give enough of an evolutionary advantage to be worth it (which is why it is not very common among other more evolutionary successful species in nature).
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 02:43:49 pm by apis »
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #173 on: May 06, 2018, 05:06:13 pm »
Maybe flat earthers have just spent way too much time in Minecraft. >:D
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #174 on: May 06, 2018, 06:57:14 pm »
We joke about Darwin awards and such, but the unfortunate truth is that evolution doesn't normally favour intelligence.

That is an overly broad statement.  How do you define "favor"?

There are plenty of examples of evolution favoring what we humans define as "intelligence": Primates, cetaceans, canines, elephants, birds. etc.  In almost every ecosystem there is a niche that has been filled by one or more species whose hallmark is the "intelligence" of its individuals.  (Intelligence of say an insect colony, is an example of an evolutionary successful "group intelligence" strategy).

Of course based on our human definition of intelligence, we are the most intelligent and evolutionarilly most successful species - at least in terms of our worldwide distribution and numbers across all ecosystems, and our ability to exploit a wide variety of resources to continually increase our numbers ( so far.....).
 

Offline GerryBags

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #175 on: May 06, 2018, 07:20:32 pm »
7 Billion individuals with a global spread, from a population numbered in the thousands 74,000 years ago, possibly, due to the eruption of Mt. Toba, would seem to be the definition of evolutionary success to me. Whether you approve of the direction our species has taken, or its effect on every other species, is a value judgement and has nothing to do with evolutionary success. I'm not a fan of the AIDS virus', but you have got to admit its success.

The Toba eruption is thought to have brought the global population to around 10,000 individuals. This is known as the genetic bottleneck and explains why there are such disparate genetic strains in Humanity with few intermediaries, although it is still hotly debated (https://www.livescience.com/29130-toba-supervolcano-effects.html).

A measure of success is the fact that our species can support some incredibly stupid or incredibly ill individuals. Speaking as someone who would not have been supported in prior ages, I'll let you guess for which reason  :P, I can't help feeling it's overall a good thing.
 

Online james_s

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #176 on: May 07, 2018, 12:58:52 am »
Insects have very little intelligence as far as we know, but they exist in mind boggling numbers, same with bacteria.
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #177 on: May 07, 2018, 03:58:11 am »
Insects have very little intelligence as far as we know, but they exist in mind boggling numbers, same with bacteria.
The drive is for the propagation and continued existence of the species. Nothing else matters.
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #178 on: May 07, 2018, 04:00:49 am »
If the Flat Earthers can back up their BS, and partially correct in what they say, what difference would it make to anyone?

This is the whole of the truth.

Turned around, why are (according to the Flat Earth Nutjobs) trillions of dollars spent and millions of people involved in a conspiracy (Round Earth) that ultimately benefits ... nobody, really?
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #179 on: May 07, 2018, 04:42:23 am »
The drive is for the propagation and continued existence of the species.

Or the DNA to be more precise.  Dawkins The Selfish Gene is very good at elucidating that point.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #180 on: May 07, 2018, 05:27:23 am »
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #181 on: May 07, 2018, 09:49:52 am »
That's a great picture for anyone who wants to get OWNED by Flearthers

They'll say it's the sun on the other side casting light on the moon,

and it's darkness on the other side of the moon, not the earths  'shadow'

Then they'll insist you prove it's a real photo and not a dud, begin to analyze the lighting, question the photographic gear...  |O

:palm:

 

Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #182 on: May 07, 2018, 03:17:35 pm »
That's a great picture for anyone who wants to get OWNED by Flearthers

They'll say it's the sun on the other side casting light on the moon,

and it's darkness on the other side of the moon, not the earths  'shadow'

And they might be right about that ?!?
 

Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #183 on: May 07, 2018, 04:47:49 pm »
We joke about Darwin awards and such, but the unfortunate truth is that evolution doesn't normally favour intelligence.
That is an overly broad statement.  How do you define "favor"?

There are plenty of examples of evolution favoring what we humans define as "intelligence": Primates, cetaceans, canines, elephants, birds. etc.  In almost every ecosystem there is a niche that has been filled by one or more species whose hallmark is the "intelligence" of its individuals.  (Intelligence of say an insect colony, is an example of an evolutionary successful "group intelligence" strategy).

Of course based on our human definition of intelligence, we are the most intelligent and evolutionarilly most successful species - at least in terms of our worldwide distribution and numbers across all ecosystems, and our ability to exploit a wide variety of resources to continually increase our numbers ( so far.....).
First one has to decide how to measure evolutionary success but when thinking about it I'm not sure that concept makes much sense. Evolution is just a mechanism after all, sort of like the second law of thermodynamics. I was thinking something is successful if it has survived (and is likely to continue to do so) for a long time. Cockroaches is a popular example. But I'm contradicting myself since I really do believe evolution works at the level of traits (or genes) not species, so we really should be talking about successful traits, if anything, I suppose.

Then we have to decide what intelligence is, which to my knowledge no one has been able to do satisfactorily. I'd intuitively agree on primates, cetaceans, elephants at least. Not convinced about birds, despite some evidence of that. But of all the species that flourish today they still make up a tiny minority. And a lot of life doesn't appear to be very intelligent at all, like all the plant life or insects or even bacteria, but that might indeed just be my human bias.

If you think about a single species, like possums (or humans, but possums have been around for a long time while humans and especially human civilisation are just a blip in the history of life on our planet), evolution doesn't appear to favour individuals that are more and more intelligent either. Possums don't get smarter and smarter. Sure, individuals that are below a certain level won't make it, but at some point, being more intelligent doesn't seem to provide enough advantage for survival to be worth it. In fact, it might even be disadvantageous.

There are those who point out that our more and more powerful technologies makes it more likely we will end up eradicating ourselves. Possums doesn't build nukes, so they are less likely to nuke themselves. I.e. our "intelligence" (or rather, advanced technology) might be a threat to our own species if we are not sufficiently intelligent about how we use it. Only a precious few understand how an atomic bomb works and can construct one, yet it is not they, but rather people like Trump and Kim Jong-un that controls the launch button. It might also be that just like advanced insect societies, we human individuals aren't very smart at all, but as a society we still manage to build nukes and put people on the moon. But that also means we probably wouldn't be able to successfully predict and prevent e.g. disastrous irreversible climate change (or some threat we are not even aware of).

We tend to value good health, long life, intelligence (we say we do at least), morals (although there are disagreement what that is), quality entertainment ("fine arts") and so on. But none of that really matters to evolution. If we want more of that we need to work for it and evolution/nature is not our friend. We do punish some of the worst behaviour by putting people in prison, but it's not really possible nor desirable to put people in jail just for being stupid or selfish. The problem is though, that stupidity has too much influence and intelligence/wisdom too little. Part of the reason for that is that we (our social and economic systems) tend to reward people for... lets just say not for being smart/wise. And by reward I mainly mean give money to, which is a problem because money often goes hand in hand with power. There is a big problem when schools are teaching creationism, or when influential politicians insists on wearing magic underwear or do not believe in (or just wilfully ignores) the scientific consensus on climate change.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 04:57:34 pm by apis »
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #184 on: May 07, 2018, 06:14:18 pm »
And a lot of life doesn't appear to be very intelligent at all, like all the plant life or insects or even bacteria, but that might indeed just be my human bias.

One of the tenets of evolutionary biology is that there are many different successful evolutionary strategies. What we define as intelligence is one of them. Of course there are others! After all, that diversity of successful evolutionary strategies is what is responsible for the great diversity of life!
 

Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #185 on: May 07, 2018, 06:54:54 pm »
And a lot of life doesn't appear to be very intelligent at all, like all the plant life or insects or even bacteria, but that might indeed just be my human bias.

One of the tenets of evolutionary biology is that there are many different successful evolutionary strategies. What we define as intelligence is one of them. Of course there are others! After all, that diversity of successful evolutionary strategies is what is responsible for the great diversity of life!
Yes, but our level of intelligence still only make up a tiny blip in the history of life on our planet, and humans might just be an evolutionary dead end (it might also turn out not to be, but we don't know yet). If intelligent life is exceedingly rare then it's not exactly being favoured by evolution is it? (It's rare on earth, and it looks like it's even rarer in the the galaxy and the rest of the universe).

What I was referring to originally is the fact that there doesn't appear to be any evolutionary pressure that favours smarter and smarter humans though. There is no evidence that support the idea that the "stupid gene" will be removed through natural selection. Quite the contrary.

As for civilisation, the ancient Romans knew the earth was a globe, they even had a decent estimate of the radius. But Rome collapsed and the Christians burned the great library of Alexandria. It took almost 1500 years to get back to the same level. If we are not careful and promote rationality over stupidity there is no reason to believe history won't just keep repeating itself.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #186 on: May 07, 2018, 07:01:01 pm »

What I was referring to originally is the fact that there doesn't appear to be any evolutionary pressure that favours smarter and smarter humans though. There is no evidence that support the idea that the "stupid gene" will be removed through natural selection. Quite the contrary.

I agree. But that is much different than your original statement that "evolution doesn't normally favour intelligence" - which as I stated is overly broad.

 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #187 on: May 07, 2018, 08:36:18 pm »
That's a great picture for anyone who wants to get OWNED by Flearthers

They'll say it's the sun on the other side casting light on the moon,

and it's darkness on the other side of the moon, not the earths  'shadow'

Then they'll insist you prove it's a real photo and not a dud, begin to analyze the lighting, question the photographic gear...  |O

:palm:

You're right, it is a great picture. But it's impossible for me to be "owned" by a flat earther. I have science and fact on my side.

Sure, they can claim it's a fake, that's all they have to rebut it. It's like me saying the sky is green, it doesn't make it so.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 08:01:28 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #188 on: May 07, 2018, 09:08:06 pm »
But they'd be right, it IS the sun on the "other" side with the Earth casting a shadow. But look at the shape, it's not that of a flat object. And it IS dark on the other side of the moon, we just can't see it.

I am no sure why you keep referring to "the earth casting a shadow". The picture simply shows the moon partially illuminated by the sun, from an angle, doesn't it? It doesn't seem to show a lunar eclipse, and no earth shadow is involved.

The picture does suggest that the moon has a spherical shape. So it seems you are trying to debunk the "flat moon theory". Close but no cigar... ;)
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #189 on: May 07, 2018, 11:14:51 pm »


What?
There is no 'Earth's shadow' in that pic. It's just the moon (a sphere), in sunlight.

You're posting in sarcasm, of a self-evident FE stupidity, right?
Trouble is, with this topic 'assumed sarcasm of stupidity' is not a safe assumption.

Also, if that pic and text really is a product of the Flat Earthers, it would illustrate my assertion that the core originators of that movement are deliberate disinformation agents. Since no-one who has ever paid attention to the Moon in the sky could fail to realize that's just of photo of the standard moon phase. But that leaves the unobservant imbeciles (useful idiot fodder) potentially able to be fooled. So it's a deliberate attempt to sow confusion by deception.

Or (actually most likely I think) it was created by a 4chan troll making fun of the Flat Earthers.

Here's a real pic of a lunar eclipse.
September 27-28, 2015 moon in partial eclipse, rising in Tucson, Arizona, as captured by BG Boyd


Note the fuzzy Earth shadow, due to atmospheric refraction. You can't actually tell anything about the shape of the Earth from a single eclipse edge, since it's a) fuzzy, and b) nearly straight. Only from seeing the same thing over multiple eclipses, you can deduce a spherical Earth. Given how odd it would be for a flat earth to always be exactly face-on to the moon during eclipses. (One of many reasons.)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 11:38:47 pm by TerraHertz »
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Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #190 on: May 07, 2018, 11:42:19 pm »

You can tell the sunlight is coming from the side (i.e. like a normal moon phase) by looking at the shadows in the craters. If this was a picture of an eclipse the sunlight should be coming from behind the earth (and the photographer), approximately along the line of sight and you would not see long shadows in the craters.
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #191 on: May 08, 2018, 12:11:52 am »
See, this is what I mean. Apis, you're falling into a trap. You are restricting your analytical thinking to details of the photo. Completely omitting any attempt to analyze the motives of whoever posted the image.
This is exactly what such disinformation sources want you to do. They want you to waste your time, and the time of everyone reading what you wrote, while remaining 'out of the picture' themselves.

Actually such pictures are a rich mine of clues about the mindset and motives of its creator, by the nature of the illogical elements it contains (including the text.)

In this one, the nature of the flaws at face value are an attempt to deceive and misdirect.
It's such an extreme example, that it most likely is a form of parody, ridiculing the Flat Earthers.

Edit: I'm not referring to Halcyon. He's just posting it as an example of the lunacy. Probably amused to see the reactions.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 12:21:50 am by TerraHertz »
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #192 on: May 08, 2018, 12:14:58 am »
Anyway, this ride is getting boring. Regardless of the amount of evidence you can present, it seems as though the flat-earthers are unwilling to change their minds. They are easily persuaded from Round Earth -> Flat Earth, but not the other way around for some strange reason, considering how impressionable they are.
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #193 on: May 08, 2018, 12:35:12 am »
Anyway, this ride is getting boring. Regardless of the amount of evidence you can present, it seems as though the flat-earthers are unwilling to change their minds. They are easily persuaded from Round Earth -> Flat Earth, but not the other way around for some strange reason, considering how impressionable they are.

The core purveyors of FE and other disruptive disinformation, are never going to 'change their minds'. Since they personally believe none of it. Their jobs are just to create whacky ideas, and inject them into public discourse. (And the topic of WHY, is too deep to discuss here.)
The only way to deal with that demographic, is via a lead-based cranial upgrade, in a vertical masonry surface context.

The useful idiots on the other hand, are hard to reason with because logical reasoning and a foundation in scientific comprehension of reality, are alien to them. You can't argue with someone who doesn't understand the concept of argument, in the Socratic sense.

Both of the above are easy to live with. What I find deeply scary, is that the majority of otherwise sane, intelligent and educated people seem absolutely resistant to the concept of a group of people carrying out coordinated deceptive actions in pursuit of their own private agenda. This is a really strange and dangerous blind spot.


Edit: Speaking of eclipses, I'm reminded there's a total lunar eclipse later this year. Visible in Sydney.
https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/in/australia/sydney
Saturday 28 Jul 2018 4am to 6:30am (setting at Western horizon while still in totality.)
Hopefully this one won't be clouded over. I have a nice spot in mind to set up the telescope.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 04:40:13 am by TerraHertz »
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Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #194 on: May 08, 2018, 05:43:55 am »
Anyway, this ride is getting boring.

Is that your way of saying; „Oh shit, I totally messed that one up! Of course the earth‘s shadow has nothing to do with that photo.“ ?
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #195 on: May 08, 2018, 07:57:30 am »
Anyway, this ride is getting boring.

Is that your way of saying; „Oh shit, I totally messed that one up! Of course the earth‘s shadow has nothing to do with that photo.“ ?

No, this is my way of saying that you can only attempt to educate people. There is nothing I can do with those who are unwilling (or unable) to learn. Anyone who supports the notion that the Earth is flat are deluding themselves, I think this was fairly successfully determined back on page 1.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 07:59:33 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #196 on: May 08, 2018, 12:03:48 pm »
Ouch. Just realized I got stung by Halcyon's pic. Cognitive bias in action. Focusing Effect, I think.
Anyway, looking at it, the first impression is that the Moon's shadowing in the pic is supposed to have something to do with Earth's shadow. Which is such an infuriatingly stupid concept, that it blinds one (me! Shit!) to what the text is *actually* saying. Did for me anyway. Not helped by Halcyon posting it entirely context free.

OK, try again.
The pic implies that *someone* has claimed the phases of the moon have something to do with the Earth's shadow.
It implies it by requesting an explanation for how that could possibly be. (It can't)
Doesn't even mention Flat Earthers. Though I suppose it's safe to assume they are the target. Or at least the intended motherload of annoyance.
But, I don't automatically accept the implication that even Flat Earthers could be so stupid, without actually seeing or hearing some of them claiming the Moon's phases are due to the Earth's shadow. This pic could be a straw man argument, in this case false attribution of a really stupid idea to an opponent. And no, I'm not going to go research Flat Earther theology, to see if any do claim that.

The pic is actually a pretty clever Troll. It doesn't make _any_ claim, just uses a question to imply a statement. One that's almost guaranteed to supremely irritate (infuriate) any rational person. It's a kind of conceptual equivalent of an optical illusion.

So, scratch everything I said before about the intent of the creator of this pic. It was made by someone either to ridicule real (stupid) claims of Flat Earthers, or just to Troll everyone, leveraging off the Flat Earther nuttiness. And it sure got me.

I still maintain the core originators of FE concepts are deliberate disinformation agents, followed by a mob of useful idiots.
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Offline GerryBags

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #197 on: May 08, 2018, 12:25:03 pm »
I still maintain the core originators of FE concepts are deliberate disinformation agents, followed by a mob of useful idiots.

That's about the conclusion I reached too. Once people have become certain they are being lied to about a multitude of small things it seems to be easy to convince them they've been lied to about the fundamentals too.... however easy it is to verify these things on your own, empirically.
 

Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #198 on: May 08, 2018, 02:06:49 pm »
What I find deeply scary, is that the majority of otherwise sane, intelligent and educated people seem absolutely resistant to the concept of a group of people carrying out coordinated deceptive actions in pursuit of their own private agenda. This is a really strange and dangerous blind spot
That Putin has such a troll factory and army in Saint Petersburg is a publicly acknowledged fact these days.

I spent more time than I'd like to admit arguing with climate change contrarians who turned out to be lobbyists and astroturfers. It didn't really dawn on me until one of them inadvertently exposed his work email adress to the lobbying firm he was working for. There where several websites where a paid writer (aka "blogger") was posting disinformation pieces regularly. Then the angry mobs helped spread that disinformation on websites like Wikipedia or in comment sections of newspapers and the like. Before you could put together enough sources and arguments to refute one comment they had already posted 10 new ones. It was impossible to keep up with.

So these days I'm very aware that people sometimes have nefarious motives. But it's not easy to tell when and why. What scares me is that many people seem to have so much trouble discerning what is true from that which is not. I.e. that these disinformation campaigns are so successful. But that is a fact we have to live with and deal with.

EDIT: I's also worth remembering Hanlon's razor.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 03:33:27 pm by apis »
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #199 on: May 08, 2018, 02:53:01 pm »
We've ALL seen the CRAP on Youtube or what-ever.....
My DISCUSSION is about how normal society should RESPOND to them ??
Do we IGNORE them... or try to EDUCATE them ???????????????
It worries me how some people in this day and age can still be so ill-informed.....
WE.. (99.99999% of us, even if non-technical) accept certain basics. I actually
feel sorry for those who do not understand/accept.... and as a result I almost feel
it is my 'DUTY', not just my 'right', to inform/educate them ????
HOW can it BE, that in the year 2018, and within civilized/educated countries, that
'people' still think they are being 'fooled' by the Masses/'Powers-To-Be'.....
I'm not talking about certain Country's 'secrets', but the shape of the Earth !!!!!
Ours being ONE of many similarly spherical planets, (not to mention our Moon)
orbiting our spherical Sun etc etc etc...........

I want to HELP them UNDERSTAND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Should we bother, or is it a lost cause...... (and if so, then why !!)

Actually, both camps are wrong. Earth is a concave sphere which we can't comprehend in our 3D experience.
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #200 on: May 08, 2018, 03:42:04 pm »
The Earth is clearly pear shaped like Columbus thought. >:D
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
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Offline GerryBags

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #201 on: May 08, 2018, 04:12:23 pm »
Oblate spheroids FTW!  :-+
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #202 on: May 08, 2018, 05:59:00 pm »
Oblate spheroids FTW!  :-+

As Andy Partridge once put it, "All the world is football shaped. It's just for me to kick in space."
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #203 on: May 08, 2018, 07:35:38 pm »
Is that your way of saying; „Oh shit, I totally messed that one up! Of course the earth‘s shadow has nothing to do with that photo.“ ?

No, this is my way of saying that you can only attempt to educate people. There is nothing I can do with those who are unwilling (or unable) to learn. Anyone who supports the notion that the Earth is flat are deluding themselves, I think this was fairly successfully determined back on page 1.

Ahh, I see that you have quietly edited your reply #190, and have removed the statement about the Earth's shadow being visible in the photo. All good then, glad we are back (?) on the same page.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #204 on: May 08, 2018, 11:05:54 pm »
Is that your way of saying; „Oh shit, I totally messed that one up! Of course the earth‘s shadow has nothing to do with that photo.“ ?

No, this is my way of saying that you can only attempt to educate people. There is nothing I can do with those who are unwilling (or unable) to learn. Anyone who supports the notion that the Earth is flat are deluding themselves, I think this was fairly successfully determined back on page 1.

Ahh, I see that you have quietly edited your reply #190, and have removed the statement about the Earth's shadow being visible in the photo. All good then, glad we are back (?) on the same page.

Quietly? No. I admit that my explanation was perhaps a little mis-worded and confusing (I blame my head-cold for that), so I modified my post (openly and transparently, see how it says that on the bottom of the post?). Quietly would have been deleting the post entirely and pretending it never happened.

You might like to refer to the posts "Terrahertz" made on the previous page in context with the conversation.

I still think you've missed my point (refer back to what you just quoted). However I'm failing to see yours?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 11:07:32 pm by Halcyon »
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #205 on: May 09, 2018, 12:45:47 am »
Are there any genuine/beyond any doubt/wysiwyg   moon/sun/earth/shadow/darkness  related photos taken from space to counteract that  'Flat Earther friendly' picture above? 

Upload them asap guys, lest they rock up here in mass  (Zombie FLATcopalypse? >:D )  armed with awesome math and physics based proof BS  :bullshit: :bullshit:

and catch everyone asleep at the wheel (mouse)  :=\ 

 ;D
 

Offline Johnboy

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #206 on: May 09, 2018, 05:01:13 am »
Are there any genuine/beyond any doubt/wysiwyg   moon/sun/earth/shadow/darkness  related photos taken from space to counteract that  'Flat Earther friendly' picture above?

This is the real question, and the only reason I'm commenting now after nine pages of this thread have accumulated. Not one member of this forum has openly supported FE.

If we're really going to talk about it, we'd have to discuss moon landings, Earthrise photo, etc. That would deserve its own thread, but look what's happened here. I'm fairly certain (with no "empirical proof" whatsoever) that I could get a camera far up enough into Earth's atmosphere to satisfy my own curiosity, had I the time and funds. As for the question of a flat Earth, Electro Detective is right; without the ability to actually travel long distances (thanks, Wright Bro's!) or report back (thanks, pigeons!), a flat Earth concept worked quite well, and apparently for millennia. As for now? Does it matter or doesn't it? I'm interested (if you are).

[Edited for conspicuous consumption.]
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 05:08:00 am by Johnboy »
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #207 on: May 09, 2018, 07:01:41 am »
This is the real question, and the only reason I'm commenting now after nine pages of this thread have accumulated. Not one member of this forum has openly supported FE.

It seems as though this has turned into a giant circle-jerk (pardon the imagery). Everyone here is on the same page. If there are any flat-earthers among us, I think they know better than to raise their hand. It would be virtual suicide.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #208 on: May 09, 2018, 07:09:16 am »
I still think you've missed my point (refer back to what you just quoted). However I'm failing to see yours?

You posted a moon picture with a misleading legend, and posted further statements which suggest that you fell for the picture's little trap. I wanted to make sure that you, and others on this forum, realize that the picture has nothing to do with Earth's shadow in any way.

(Which, by the way, makes the picture quite unsuitable for arguing in favor of "flat earth". The one thing it shows is that the moon is probably a sphere, which in my book makes it more likely that the Earth is a sphere too.)

I may indeed have missed your point. I would like to understand your intent behind posting this picture. How did you intend to "educate" the public with it?

Quote
Ahh, I see that you have quietly edited your reply #190, and have removed the statement about the Earth's shadow being visible in the photo. All good then, glad we are back (?) on the same page.

Quietly? No.

Did you write another post correcting your misconception or misleading wording, like TerraHertz did? No. When editing your prior post, did you add a note explaining the nature of the edit, or simply strike through the statement you wanted to change? No, you simply removed the unwanted sentence, despite the fact that it had already beed referred to in subsequent posts. That's what I call "quietly editing". Your terminology may differ.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #209 on: May 09, 2018, 07:16:08 am »
 :palm:

There are so many things wrong with your post I just don't know where to begin, nor do I have the energy, especially when you selectively pick parts of my quotes in an attempt to support your point.

As I said, this is getting boring, we are all "arguing" the same point. "The sky is blue", "No! The sky IS blue!".

To answer the original post...

Should we bother, or is it a lost cause...... (and if so, then why !!)

No, don't bother. You're trying to convince people of things they don't want to be convinced about.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 07:17:41 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #210 on: May 09, 2018, 07:19:46 am »
:palm:

There are so many things wrong with your post I just don't know where to begin, nor do I have the energy.

We either have a major misunderstanding between the two of us, or you have a really hard time owning up to a (harmless) error of yours. Either way, I'm happy to leave this matter behind. See you in another thread!
 

Offline ChrisLX200

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #211 on: May 09, 2018, 08:49:15 am »
To FlatEarthers, any conclusive evidence (like satellite photos) that contradicts their viewpoint is rejected as 'fake'. It's a complete waste of time debating with them because you may present them with incontrovertible evidence they won't listen and likely reject it out of hand. They are not actively seeking the truth.

As for a motive, their apparent desire is simply to be different from the rest, to be noticed - to stand out from the crowd by extolling a (ridiculous to us) belief and defending it with the inane (but superficially clever) explanations picked up from the 'net and other members of their unique 'club'. There is no personal thought process nor soul-searching required in reaching their conclusion the Earth is flat, they just parrot the rubbish fed to them from the originators of this cult. So don't bother attempting to compile a definitive list of evidence to counter the Flat Earth view because it will be totally ineffective. The Flat Earth view was never based on evidence to start with.

Instead look at the motives of those who actively disseminate and encourage this belief. Is it some vast experiment used to gauge the percentage of the population guillable enough to join the cult? Is there some large scale 'Fake News' factory at work using experiments like this (and the many conspiracy theories) to hone their abilities to influence/control fractions of the population? Makes you wonder..

 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #212 on: May 09, 2018, 09:36:32 am »
The Hipster Australian YouTubers can explain it better than I can:

 

Offline newbrain

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #213 on: May 09, 2018, 10:52:01 am »
As Andy Partridge once put it, "All the world is football shaped. It's just for me to kick in space."
But, then, isn't it also biscuit shaped? And aren't most biscuits flat?
Now I'm confused :-//
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #214 on: May 09, 2018, 11:03:53 am »
Those hipsters may be fake!  :scared:

no trackies, moccos, beer cans, pizza boxes, maccas wrappers, neglected pets...


but what really gives the game away is no bowl and no bong !!!   :o

 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #215 on: May 09, 2018, 11:55:40 am »
The bad NASA faker are always imagining the new best thing, trying to convince us with fancy imagery. :box:
Look how they even made the clouds change a little! Ha! I see trough your Photoshop-wizardry, NASA!  :-DD

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/from-a-million-miles-away-nasa-camera-shows-moon-crossing-face-of-earth


It's from 2015 and I wonder why that never comes up in these threads.


Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #216 on: May 09, 2018, 01:27:06 pm »
As for the question of a flat Earth, Electro Detective is right; without the ability to actually travel long distances (thanks, Wright Bro's!) or report back (thanks, pigeons!), a flat Earth concept worked quite well, and apparently for millennia.
It's been common knowledge that the earth is spherical at least since antiquity.

Look how they even made the clouds change a little! Ha! I see trough your Photoshop-wizardry, NASA!  :-DD
It's amazing what you can do with CGI these days. ;)

Instead look at the motives of those who actively disseminate and encourage this belief. Is it some vast experiment used to gauge the percentage of the population guillable enough to join the cult? Is there some large scale 'Fake News' factory at work using experiments like this (and the many conspiracy theories) to hone their abilities to influence/control fractions of the population? Makes you wonder..
Yes, it does makes you wonder. It's not just flat earthers though, there are countless examples of nonsensical beliefs nowadays. Question is how to deal with it. If one tries to ignore them then soon enough they will demand we teach this new "alternate fact" in schools. Flat earthers might seem harmless, but things like climate change denialism is not.
 

Offline GerryBags

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #217 on: May 09, 2018, 03:23:18 pm »
True, even in ancient times knowledge of the spherical nature of the Earth was widespread, they even formulated a theory of "epi-cycles" to explain the retrograde motion of some planets at certain points in their orbit with relation to Earth. While they were wrong about the cause of the retrograde motion (this was pre-Copernicus), they did pre-figure a groovy Fourier transform visualisation:  :D

https://youtu.be/k8FXF1KjzY0

 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #218 on: May 09, 2018, 07:25:52 pm »
Those hipsters may be fake!  :scared:

no trackies, moccos, beer cans, pizza boxes, maccas wrappers, neglected pets...


but what really gives the game away is no bowl and no bong !!!   :o

Don't know what a "tracky", "mocco", or a "macca" is but it sounds like you have different hipsters. Here, we'de call that a trailer hick. Our hipsters have backwards hats, funny looking skateboards, sunglasses, and have rediculous style choices like square bicyles and drinking coffee from a powder horn. The might also smoke weed though. >:D
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #219 on: May 09, 2018, 11:09:18 pm »
Those hipsters may be fake!  :scared:

no trackies, moccos, beer cans, pizza boxes, maccas wrappers, neglected pets...


but what really gives the game away is no bowl and no bong !!!   :o

Don't know what a "tracky", "mocco", or a "macca" is but it sounds like you have different hipsters.

Here, we'de call that a trailer hick.

Our hipsters have backwards hats, funny looking skateboards, sunglasses, and have rediculous style choices like square bicyles and drinking coffee from a powder horn.
The might also smoke weed though.
>:D



They are definitely not typical Australian examples of hipsters or trailer trash hicks in that video.
and yes, going by your description, aussie hipsters mimic the US ones and or vice vera   :-//

In that video above the odds are good they are paid wankers actors chasing coke/ice dollars to further whatever agenda is going on with 'Flat Earth Reloaded' fiasco



and if you "...don't know what a "tracky", "mocco", or a "macca" is..."  :-//

LOL, it's something you don't need in your life to know about, nor see these items being modelled on a cat walk by knuckle draggers  :palm:

The Fashion Police may pick you up too, on suspicion for 'consorting with undesirables'    :scared:


 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #220 on: May 10, 2018, 12:34:45 am »
I guess, if you don't have enough drawer for everyone, some might just have to share theirs. Huh, detective?
Don't you want a little more room? Free up a drawer or two? Because: You accumulated much knowledge, apparently, and don't share any of it, it's all cluttered!
How many drawer can a high-horse have anyway? Maybe get rid of it entirely and roam the open field around you on your feet instead. The ground feels good under naked feet. It's feels real and natural. Gives you a sense of connectedness.


I do like that you didn't bit my bait, though.

Offline @rt

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #221 on: May 10, 2018, 01:12:30 am »
I’m convinced the majority of them are trolls,
and the YouTube community surrounding it are after some easy low life money.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #222 on: May 10, 2018, 04:28:01 am »
I’m convinced the majority of them are trolls

Trolls would certainly enjoy the disruption.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #223 on: May 10, 2018, 04:39:23 am »
I’m convinced the majority of them are trolls,

and the YouTube community surrounding it are after some easy low life money.


Yeah   :-+   
them and the alien UFO illuminutty floggers need to go easy on the crack pipe

delete their BS to free up some Youtube bandwidth 

and do something constructive and useful with their free  (tax payer funded)  time

like taking out the trash, burying the dog, trim mums toenails,

repairing their trailer

and get the dunny working again  ::)

 
 

Offline @rt

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #224 on: May 10, 2018, 05:02:06 am »
How cool. That’s the first and only time I’ve seen a video of mine randomly embedded somewhere. Made my day!
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #225 on: May 10, 2018, 08:20:37 am »
I’m convinced the majority of them are trolls,

and the YouTube community surrounding it are after some easy low life money.


Yeah   :-+   
them and the alien UFO illuminutty floggers need to go easy on the crack pipe

delete their BS to free up some Youtube bandwidth 

and do something constructive and useful with their free  (tax payer funded)  time

like taking out the trash, burying the dog, trim mums toenails,

repairing their trailer

and get the dunny working again  ::)

I can see them trying to haul their trailer to a "high class" trailer park and having something like on Top Gear happen. *SMASH* >:D
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 
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Offline niladherbert

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #226 on: May 11, 2018, 11:37:23 am »
Quote
Yeah   :-+   
them and the alien UFO illuminutty floggers need to go easy on the crack pipe

delete their BS to free up some Youtube bandwidth 

and do something constructive and useful with their free  (tax payer funded)  time

like taking out the trash, burying the dog, trim mums toenails,

repairing their trailer

and get the dunny working again  ::)

Really we don't want the continued deletions of anything deemed offensive on youtube. What really is needed is a division of youtube where part has a really obvious disclaimer where it is purely for entertainment and is opinion rather than evidence based, and a (probably much smaller) part which is science and research based. That solution should work until we find a way to fully decentralize distribution of information
As for those that are supported by the taxes of others, it really isn't any goverments job to keep them. If you think thats uncharitable, you should give this a read: https://www.shtfinfo.com/shtffiles/books_and_reading/Jerry%20Johnson%2C/Davy%20Crockett%20is%20Dead%21%20%2880%29/Davy%20Crockett%20is%20Dead%21%20-%20Jerry%20Johnson%2C.pdf
Anyhow freedom of speech for all, although others should be permitted to 'flag' to others that the content is, in their opinion, utter rot
 

Offline IanMacdonald

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #227 on: May 11, 2018, 12:15:29 pm »
Really we don't want the continued deletions of anything deemed offensive on youtube.

Agreed. The problem with that approach is that hucksters would waste no time in having everything that questions their junk science deleted.  You would then not be allowed to question magnet motors. Or that wind turbines can both stop a 300m sea level rise and power a spacecraft to Mars. 
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #228 on: May 22, 2018, 12:03:18 pm »
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/1805/TerminatorMoon_Zia_1176.jpg

Just a beautiful hi-res image of the Moon in half phase, highlighting the mountains and craters along the terminator.

I'm pretty sure Flat Earthers never browse through the vast archive of quality space pics at Astronomy Picture Of The Day https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html
Collecting old scopes, logic analyzers, and unfinished projects. http://everist.org
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #229 on: May 22, 2018, 12:26:45 pm »
Hmmm...  I guess I can only repeat the saying....   "...Never the Twain shall meet..."
I'm not sure what I expected from this 'Post', but aspects of it were obvious......
I guess I, and others here, were just VENTING obvious FRUSTRATION...........

The PROBLEM is, that we are NOT talking about say 300 to 2000 years ago, when we
'Knew Nothing', and thought we were 'Doing Good' by burning heretic witches at the
stake, and condemning the likes of Copernicus to death or imprisonment by the 'churches'.

We are talking about 'TODAY' !!!!!   in May 2018 !!!!!!
It actually SCARES me, that there are such people today, working in industry, labs, component
manufacturing companies, teachers, wholesalers, electricians etc. etc. etc.........
that STILL actually believe this Fu%$^&#  Crap !!!!!!!

...... There must be something 'Seriously' wrong in their little brains........
But these are the population of 'tomorrow'..... (????????)
It scares me.......
 

Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #230 on: May 22, 2018, 05:42:11 pm »
Flat Earthers are only the tip of the iceberg. I used to think they were just trolls, but there is just too much evidence they are not. They are just that stupid/gullible.

Check out this poll from 2013:
https://www.publicpolicypolling.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/PPP_Release_National_ConspiracyTheories_040213.pdf

Quote
Do you believe media or the government adds secret mind-controlling technology to television broadcast signals, or not?
Do 15%
Do not 70%
Not sure 15%
15% + 15% = 30% ! ... I mean, this is tinfoil hat territory :palm:

Quote
Do you believe President Barack Obama is the anti-Christ, or not?
Do 13%
Do not 73%
Not sure 13%
So, more than one in four US citizens are not sure if Obama is Satan or not. And one in eight believe he is. :palm: :palm:
Sure, they don't like him, but anti-Christ?! come on. It's all those bat crazy evangelicals in the US.

Quote
Do you believe that shape-shifting reptilian people control our world by taking on human form and gaining political power to manipulate our societies, or not?
Do 4%
Do not 88%
Not sure 7%
4 + 7 = 11% !!!  :palm: :palm: :palm: :-DD

And it would be super nice to be able to laugh and say it's just those nutty Americans, but sadly it's the same everywhere. A recent study here is Sweden show that 6% believe the moon landing was a hoax, which matches the result from this american poll nicely:

Quote
Do you believe the moon landing was faked, or not?
Do 7%
Do not 84%
Not sure 9%

I have no doubt swedes are just as crazy, the theories might vary depending on the culture but the potential is the same everywhere. A lot of people are just nightmare inducingly stupid. And some are both evil and stupid (often goes hand in hand). If you accept that fact things like creationism, witch burning, facism, scientology, etc, isn't so strange any more.
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #231 on: May 23, 2018, 01:38:20 am »
Quote
Do you believe media or the government adds secret mind-controlling technology to television broadcast signals, or not?
Do 15%
Do not 70%
Not sure 15%
15% + 15% = 30% ! ... I mean, this is tinfoil hat territory :palm:
Depends what you define as "secret mind-controlling tech". Quite apart from the channel contents being full of every known opinion influencing method - neurolinguistic programming, hypnotic voice cadences, 'discussions' that are deeply scripted peer-influence exercises, rapid scene cuts and luminance variations timed to pound a point home, and so on, there's also subliminal single-frame image flashes. I've never captured these myself, but did read an article years ago of a group that built a video frame analyzer system. Purpose was to software-search for single frames that didn't closely match frames to either side in the stream. You'd expect plenty of cuts, where one sequence shifted suddenly to another. But they claimed to find there were a LOT of weird cases where very striking single frame images occurred in broadcast TV. Deep subconscious association type imagery.
Having no such system myself, I can't verify. The counter argument would be, that people taping TV programs should report seeing such images in frame by frame playback. But I've never heard this reported.
Don't really care anyway, since I very rarely watch broadcast TV. It would be interesting to make such a system now, with digital TV broadcasts.

Quote
Quote
Do you believe President Barack Obama is the anti-Christ, or not?
Do 13%
Do not 73%
Not sure 13%
So, more than one in four US citizens are not sure if Obama is Satan or not. And one in eight believe he is. :palm: :palm:
Sure, they don't like him, but anti-Christ?! come on. It's all those bat crazy evangelicals in the US.
Ah, religion. A foundation proof that you can make people believe any stupid shit, if you start on them early enough. Some of those survey respondents will be religious, and mean it literally. Others may just mean it allegorically. Using 'antichrist' as shorthand for utter f*cking disaster and ruin.

Quote
Quote
Do you believe that shape-shifting reptilian people control our world by taking on human form and gaining political power to manipulate our societies, or not?
Do 4%
Do not 88%
Not sure 7%
4 + 7 = 11% !!!  :palm: :palm: :palm: :-DD

I'm an atheist. All my life I've searched with an open mind for any evidence of anything 'spiritual'. I've stayed overnight in 'haunted' houses, and stuff like that. Nothing, nada. And yet, I've had three unexpected personal experiences that are hard to explain. I'll relate one of them:
One time, in my place of work, sitting in a room with a friend also employed there, the boss walked in unannounced. He had a practice of showing potential share investors around the company; this had happened a few times before. Today he walked in with Bob Hawk (ex Oz Prime Minister, from decades ago.) The routine was, my friend and I stand up and shake hands with the VIP-sucker while introduced, smile and nod while the GM prattles on about how great the company is. Then they leave and we go back to work.
Seemed the same this day. I didn't think much of Hawke as PM, but didn't have strong feelings about it. He was an actor for the US, same as several other Oz PMs, but that's typical. This day I reached to shake hands, just a bit amused that he should turn up here, maybe getting suckered into buying shares in this stupid company, ho hum. At the moment of skin contact it felt like I was struck by dark, dark lightning. Instant all hairs on back of neck standing up, whole body feeling like I was falling to some kind of horrific hell. 'Shaking hands with a Demon' seems apt. I went into shock, couldn't react. Timeless horror. Handshake ended, thank God! I stood doing the smiling nodding act, then sat down when they left. Still in shock.
I have NO F*CKING IDEA what that was. Never felt anything like it before or since in my life. And very much don't want to. I'm totally not prone to sudden unexplained emotional blasts. More like a Spock of ST.
Still, it's a personal, once-off, subjective impression. Useless in any real sense. Question is though, have other people had similar experiences? Some underlying basis, elaborated to the 'reptillians' meme, perhaps?

As for the rest, yes, the human mind is not intrinsically rational. Logic is a learned skill. The modern education system fails badly in this, and many including me think this is a deliberate and intended result. 'Common Core' among other education schemes are crafted to produce individuals who cannot independently reason, but are conditioned to accept and parrot whatever they are told by authority figures.

Collecting old scopes, logic analyzers, and unfinished projects. http://everist.org
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #232 on: May 23, 2018, 11:47:50 am »
! ... I mean, this is tinfoil hat territory :palm:
Tinfoil hat is for those who think all humans are rational or moral beings.  Many or most might be, but not all. It is naïve to think a conspiracy cannot be true, because it would be too big.  If it is profitable enough, compared to the expense of making it work, it probably is true. Just not perpetrated by lizard aliens, but ordinary humans looking to gain.

Also, controlling a single person is orders of magnitude harder than controlling masses.  Consider traffic, for example.  Ostensibly, each driver is following their own desires, and following the rules to varying degrees. Nevertheless, traffic in general can be modeled to a very high precision, even up to and including emergent phenomena like traffic jams, by using very simple models originally designed to model hive insect behaviour. There is no intelligence there in traffic. Why would overall human behaviour be that more complicated?

Opinion shaping is another good example.  Even if you completely disagree, hearing something described positively or negatively every day for a couple of months will change your opinion, even if you are aware that it is happening.

(I probably should find references to these studies, but I don't think those of you who disagree would agree even with the references, so why bother?  If you care, you do your own research, which is much more likely to sway your opinion than reading something that a nobody on the internet wrote ;D)

I'm an atheist. All my life I've searched with an open mind for any evidence of anything 'spiritual'.
I did have a 'spiritual' experience once, when I was 27 or so.  After living most of my life up to that point way out in the backwater forests, I suddenly realized why I could never relax when alone in the woods: because I felt I wasn't alone. I also realized I felt that way, because I have a close physiological connection to the forest surrounding me; similar to how some say they are most themselves when sailing, or running, or whatever.  Nothing religious or magic, but a sudden spiritual understanding of how I unknowingly interact with my surroundings. Interesting stuff, nevertheless, and definitely spiritual.

Having studied both the atomic level of things, and looked at the universe through a telescope, the idea of an omnipotent god interested in events affecting single humans, is utterly ridiculous to me.  Not impossible one exists, but if one does, I do not want anything to do with it: it would simply be a chaotic force from my point of view.  No, I'd rather just live my life, and leave room for something even more interesting to follow.  The universe is big enough for me; no need for a here-after of any kind, either.

At the moment of skin contact it felt like I was struck by dark, dark lightning. Instant all hairs on back of neck standing up, whole body feeling like I was falling to some kind of horrific hell. 'Shaking hands with a Demon' seems apt. I went into shock, couldn't react. Timeless horror.
Could be a physiological reaction, some kind of biological incompatibility, combined with your mental model of the person, that manifested itself as a "religious" experience.

The biological stuff is interesting. Fear does have a smell, for example, although not all can smell it. While humans seem much less perceptive of pheromones in general (compared to some other species), we do seem to think that e.g. potential spouses with complementary immune systems (giving offspring better immune systems) smell better. The tactile feel a handshake itself is complicated: a cold, wet, limp handshake can easily evoke a sleezy lizard-like perception of the person, and so on.

I don't see it at all impossible, just a probably very rare occurrence, that a contact with someone with opposing values, morals, and "operating principles", leads to such a strong reaction, when the, uh, "pieces fall exactly right".  I can definitely see how such reactions easily combine with concepts like "evil" or "the devil", producing religious imagery that better resonates with people.

(Full disclosure: A couple of my friends have told me their initial reaction to meeting me in person the first time was utterly negative, and only changed later on, after having actually interacted with me for a while.   I've tried to find out how this happens and what I do that triggers it, but to no avail.) 
As for the rest, yes, the human mind is not intrinsically rational. Logic is a learned skill. The modern education system fails badly in this, and many including me think this is a deliberate and intended result.
Absolutely.

The underlying reason could be as simple as the fact that uninformed people are easier to rule.

I do not see any need for a conspiracy or anything. All you need is representatives who find informed, intelligent people intimidating, making the representatives lives harder, always bringing new problems to think about. The representatives will always (at least on average!) tend to solutions that makes their own life easier. That means their actions will decrease the number of informed, intelligent people, and increase the number of easily represented, uninformed people. Even if the representatives have perfectly good intentions in mind. To do otherwise, they would actively have to work against themselves, making their own work harder and harder.  Do you know anyone capable of that? Any politician capable or willing to do that?

In the schoolroom, or in any education situation, it is much easier for the instructor to encourage "going with the flow", than fostering critical thinking and disagreement.  Plus, it takes a very specific type of person to allow being questioned like that every day without getting frustrated, and that is not the type of person that currently seeks employment in education or teaching.
 

Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #233 on: May 23, 2018, 04:49:54 pm »
Quote
Do you believe media or the government adds secret mind-controlling technology to television broadcast signals, or not?
Do 15%
Do not 70%
Not sure 15%
15% + 15% = 30% ! ... I mean, this is tinfoil hat territory :palm:
Depends what you define as "secret mind-controlling tech". Quite apart from the channel contents being full of every known opinion influencing method - neurolinguistic programming, hypnotic voice cadences, 'discussions' that are deeply scripted peer-influence exercises, rapid scene cuts and luminance variations timed to pound a point home, and so on,
I think we can all agree the world is full of propaganda and advertising. Rethorics and even cheap advertising trics works, no argument there. (Why else are there so many that believe in silly conspiracy theories!)

... there's also subliminal single-frame image flashes. I've never captured these myself, but did read an article years ago of a group that built a video frame analyzer system. Purpose was to software-search for single frames that didn't closely match frames to either side in the stream. You'd expect plenty of cuts, where one sequence shifted suddenly to another. But they claimed to find there were a LOT of weird cases where very striking single frame images occurred in broadcast TV. Deep subconscious association type imagery.
Having no such system myself, I can't verify.
I have seen rare examples of that in some horror movie (or maybe music video?), it was added for effect, don't remember which (probably not worth remembering anyway).

Subliminal messaging is BS. First of all, it is easy to spot with the naked eye. In fact a single odd video frame out of place is quite jarring, you couldn't miss it if it happened regularly. Secondly it doesn't have any effect. Seeing a single frame of a can of Dr Pepper doesn't make you crave Dr Pepper any more than reading this sentence.

The counter argument would be, that people taping TV programs should report seeing such images in frame by frame playback. But I've never heard this reported.
Indeed. You should ask yourself why you put any faith in that article then?

Don't really care anyway, since I very rarely watch broadcast TV. It would be interesting to make such a system now, with digital TV broadcasts.
I don't watch much TV either, but If true you really should care, not just for altruistic reason but also since it would still affect you indirectly on a massive scale.

The existence of secret mind-controlling technology that can be added to television broadcasts is just a prerequisite in this case, you would also have to believe your government or media was secretly using it on their citizens. That would require a lot of people are in on it and none of them are blowing the whistle. There would have to be a lot of people authorising, funding and maintaining these systems all over the world.

That people here are even questioning whether this is real is just more proof that the 15%+15% figure is likely to be accurate.

Quote
Quote
Do you believe President Barack Obama is the anti-Christ, or not?
Do 13%
Do not 73%
Not sure 13%
So, more than one in four US citizens are not sure if Obama is Satan or not. And one in eight believe he is. :palm: :palm:
Sure, they don't like him, but anti-Christ?! come on. It's all those bat crazy evangelicals in the US.

Ah, religion. A foundation proof that you can make people believe any stupid shit, if you start on them early enough. Some of those survey respondents will be religious, and mean it literally. Others may just mean it allegorically. Using 'antichrist' as shorthand for utter f*cking disaster and ruin.

It's from the book of revelation, supposedly a sign that doomsday is approaching, which have been a popular conspiracy theory ("doomsday prohpets") for millenia. What is particularly frightening is that some of these groups are actively trying to make things in the book of revelation happen (consequences be damned). A large part of the zionist movement is cristian for example. (Quick googling brings up this for example: http://watchmanbiblestudy.com/articles/1948PropheciesFulfilled.html)

That it wasn't meant literally was my first thought as well and some do not mean it literally, of course. But I'm convinced that the majority of them do. 13% is about the same size as many other conspiracy theories after all and it's in line with other things these people are saying.

Quote
Quote
Do you believe that shape-shifting reptilian people control our world by taking on human form and gaining political power to manipulate our societies, or not?
Do 4%
Do not 88%
Not sure 7%
4 + 7 = 11% !!!  :palm: :palm: :palm: :-DD
I'm an atheist. All my life I've searched with an open mind for any evidence of anything 'spiritual'. I've stayed overnight in 'haunted' houses, and stuff like that. Nothing, nada.
I think most of us want to believe in these things. It would be unbelievably cool and practical if telekinesis, predicting the future, teleportation, the afterlife, etc, was real. Sadly, contrary to popular belief there has been huge amount of money and effort spent trying to find evidence of the paranormal, but they have all come up empty handed. You'd be surprise of the number of studies made on dowsing rods.

It's just wishful thinking.



At the moment of skin contact it felt like I was struck by dark, dark lightning. Instant all hairs on back of neck standing up, whole body feeling like I was falling to some kind of horrific hell. 'Shaking hands with a Demon' seems apt. I went into shock, couldn't react. Timeless horror. Handshake ended, thank God! I stood doing the smiling nodding act, then sat down when they left. Still in shock.
I have NO F*CKING IDEA what that was. Never felt anything like it before or since in my life. And very much don't want to. I'm totally not prone to sudden unexplained emotional blasts. More like a Spock of ST.
Spock would not think global warming was a hoax (sorry but it had to be said :P). What you describe seems perfectly normal to me. Colloquially known as the shivers. The human mind is an unreliable and often irrational thing, that is something we all seem to agree on after all.

Still, it's a personal, once-off, subjective impression. Useless in any real sense. Question is though, have other people had similar experiences? Some underlying basis, elaborated to the 'reptillians' meme, perhaps?
Getting the shivers from a handshake does in no way prove or even indicate the earth is controlled by evil shape-shifting lizards from outer space! That said, every good conspiracy theory is based on a grain of truth.

As for the rest, yes, the human mind is not intrinsically rational. Logic is a learned skill. The modern education system fails badly in this, and many including me think this is a deliberate and intended result. 'Common Core' among other education schemes are crafted to produce individuals who cannot independently reason, but are conditioned to accept and parrot whatever they are told by authority figures.
Yes, I think so too. That is a big problem. The schools are tailored to provide workers with the skills the factories need; not wise, critically thinking citizens.

Schools cost a lot of tax money and is a negative experience for many, so there is constant pressure to only teach a minimum of subjects. That favours subjects that are easily shown to be practically useful skills. The powers that be have no interest in people learning philosophy, reading the Prince, questioning where money comes from or what the foundations of christianity is anyway. They do have a big interest in workers that already know most of the things needed to perform the tasks that needs to be done. Otherwise the companies would have to pay to educate the workers themselves.

So schools teach maths, chemistry, physics, english, (very selective) history, etc, within an authoritative framework that rewards obedience. Everything we need to be efficient workers and patriotic citizens.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 05:35:46 pm by apis »
 

Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #234 on: May 23, 2018, 05:27:33 pm »
Tinfoil hat is for those who think all humans are rational or moral beings.  Many or most might be, but not all. It is naïve to think a conspiracy cannot be true, because it would be too big.  If it is profitable enough, compared to the expense of making it work, it probably is true. Just not perpetrated by lizard aliens, but ordinary humans looking to gain.
Indeed. Large conspiracies are definitely real. Just look how easy it has been to fool a lot of people that global warming is a hoax. It's definitely profitable enough for the oil and coal industry to keep spreading the misinformation and lobbying against policy change.

I've heard people say the world is controlled by lizard people, but never anyone that claimed all humans are rational and moral (certainly not moral). There are quite a few that like to repeat we are rational (especially themselves) and I think people tend to overrate just how intelligent we humans really are. (And how do they define intelligence and rationallity anyway?) But I suppose it ultimately depend on what you compare with.

Morals (whatever that is) is a necessity for all social animals, so we have to be fairly moral or else our societies wouldn't work. Some people take advantage of that though, and clearly, some people are just downright evil.

Also, controlling a single person is orders of magnitude harder than controlling masses.  Consider traffic, for example.  Ostensibly, each driver is following their own desires, and following the rules to varying degrees. Nevertheless, traffic in general can be modeled to a very high precision, even up to and including emergent phenomena like traffic jams, by using very simple models originally designed to model hive insect behaviour. There is no intelligence there in traffic. Why would overall human behaviour be that more complicated?
Indeed, which is why self driving cars can be a good thing.

I think overall human behaviour can be understood in terms of people just trying to satisfy their basic needs: find shelter, find food and reproduce. It's what most peoples lives circle around.

Opinion shaping is another good example. Even if you completely disagree, hearing something described positively or negatively every day for a couple of months will change your opinion, even if you are aware that it is happening.
Yes, rhetorics and advertising works sadly.

One of the basic mechanism of advertising is based on recognition. If you see an ad for a washing powder every day for a year, when you are on your way home from work, tired and hungry, and need to choose a detergent you are going to reach for the most familiar one: the one you saw in the ad. Doesn't matter what you thought the ad was stupid and know it's just bs.
 

Online james_s

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #235 on: May 23, 2018, 07:21:10 pm »

One of the basic mechanism of advertising is based on recognition. If you see an ad for a washing powder every day for a year, when you are on your way home from work, tired and hungry, and need to choose a detergent you are going to reach for the most familiar one: the one you saw in the ad. Doesn't matter what you thought the ad was stupid and know it's just bs.

I sure don't. When I hear an ad for something excessively often it puts a sour taste in my mouth and when I go to buy something in that category I make a conscious decision to buy something else if at all possible. I loathe advertising, especially the abstract/silly stuff that doesn't clearly tell you what the product is and what it does, and anything that is too frequent. If they have to advertise that much then the product likely isn't very good.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #236 on: May 23, 2018, 09:23:11 pm »
we have to be fairly moral or else our societies wouldn't work.
I meant that the number of "immoral" people societies can support is surprisingly large. There are lots of people who apply a different moral standard to others than they do to themselves, usually telling themselves something like "although only bad people do that, I can do it now, because I am not a bad person" or something similar. Yet, their effect on their surroundings is exactly the same as people who simply decide that certain morals or rules simply do not apply to them.

Yes, rhetorics and advertising works sadly.
I was thinking more along the lines of forced speech: the way certain words and expressions are required when discussing a certain topic, and how some other terms and expressions are banned altogether.

Forced invented terms are especially insiduous, because they have no established context. After the term has been forced upon people, it is cheap to shape opinions and thinking on the subject, simply by controlling the context in which it is portrayed in mass media.  This stuff is surprisingly effective: as I already mentioned, even if you know it is being done to you, it will affect you, unless you stop consuming mass media. This has been verified in actual experiments, I believe.

Advertisements are horribly crude in comparison; product placement (that does not cross the conscious detection threshold) is much more effective.
 

Offline apis

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #237 on: May 23, 2018, 11:04:35 pm »
One of the basic mechanism of advertising is based on recognition. If you see an ad for a washing powder every day for a year, when you are on your way home from work, tired and hungry, and need to choose a detergent you are going to reach for the most familiar one: the one you saw in the ad. Doesn't matter what you thought the ad was stupid and know it's just bs.

I sure don't. When I hear an ad for something excessively often it puts a sour taste in my mouth and when I go to buy something in that category I make a conscious decision to buy something else if at all possible. I loathe advertising, especially the abstract/silly stuff that doesn't clearly tell you what the product is and what it does, and anything that is too frequent. If they have to advertise that much then the product likely isn't very good.
I don't either, I try to pick the cheapest (all other things equal). If that didn't work well, I try the next cheapest (and so on). But I'm also doing that consciously to avoid being fooled by marketing.

It works when you are making a subconscious decision though, i.e. when tired, hungry and stressed you are more likely to just grab something that looks familiar. If you start thinking about it and compare prices, etc, you can override that initial impulse.

I believe this effect is proven and well established, but it's not really my area of expertise so can't swear on it.

we have to be fairly moral or else our societies wouldn't work.
I meant that the number of "immoral" people societies can support is surprisingly large. There are lots of people who apply a different moral standard to others than they do to themselves, usually telling themselves something like "although only bad people do that, I can do it now, because I am not a bad person" or something similar. Yet, their effect on their surroundings is exactly the same as people who simply decide that certain morals or rules simply do not apply to them.

People doesn't even agree on what is immoral to begin with, so it can be a tricky subject. But lets take murder as an example: most people would agree it's bad, and it is also pretty rare. If everyone ran around murdering people they didn't like it's pretty clear society would quickly collapse and everyone would live in constant fear. Also, it's not black and white: no one is completely good or completely evil and most people have probably lied at some time, but most people would not commit murder

How you define an "immoral" person, and what is "surprisingly large" is highly subjective I suspect.  If you're saying a lot of people are selfish hypocritical bastards, then yeah, you get no argument from me.



Yes, rhetorics and advertising works sadly.
I was thinking more along the lines of forced speech: the way certain words and expressions are required when discussing a certain topic, and how some other terms and expressions are banned altogether.

Forced invented terms are especially insiduous, because they have no established context. After the term has been forced upon people, it is cheap to shape opinions and thinking on the subject, simply by controlling the context in which it is portrayed in mass media.  This stuff is surprisingly effective: as I already mentioned, even if you know it is being done to you, it will affect you, unless you stop consuming mass media. This has been verified in actual experiments, I believe.

Advertisements are horribly crude in comparison; product placement (that does not cross the conscious detection threshold) is much more effective.
Maybe I should have said propaganda and marketing rather than rhetorics and advertising?

The Nazis (who basically invented modern propaganda) thought that people will believe anything, provided they are told it often enough and emphatically enough, and that contradictors are either silenced or smothered in calumny. Sadly it turned out they were right.

I was thinking of marketing in general not just advertisments. You are right that there are many more deceptive forms of marketing, astroturfing is another. (But advertising is also effective or why would people spend so much money on it?)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 11:09:59 pm by apis »
 
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Offline Kalvin

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #238 on: June 17, 2018, 03:26:18 pm »
I didn't read the whole thread, so forgive me if this is a duplicate link:

http://qrp-labs.com/circumnavigators.html

This is pretty hard data that the balloon can travel from one edge to another as if the earth was a sphere ;) . Better yet, the balloon was built by hobbyists and the balloon is able to send the GPS location data to the independent observers (radio amateurs, for example) which can monitor the balloon moving across the earth, 12 km above the earth's surface so it can only be observed within certain region at a time due to earth's curvature. Sure, no hard-core flat-earther may not a) believe this or b) understand what they are seeing. But someone less hard-core, this may bring some light and understanding that flat-earth is just a hoax.

Current balloons:
https://tracker.habhub.org
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 03:35:54 pm by Kalvin »
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: "Flat Earthers"... what the F%$# !!!
« Reply #239 on: June 17, 2018, 03:41:21 pm »
That's a hoax, too. All the photos