Author Topic: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)  (Read 2293 times)

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Offline etiTopic starter

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[Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« on: December 01, 2022, 06:18:14 pm »
Wow, consider me... Amused. I think. Sounds like a wonderful way to generate e-waste and make things even less repairable. Not to mention that assuming that the entire industry would abandon solder is laughable (obviously)

https://www.eetimes.com/solders-days-should-be-numbered-there-is-a-better-way/
« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 06:21:28 pm by eti »
 

Offline Benta

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2022, 08:02:28 pm »
A 1000+ words saying... nothing. Not worth the read. Friends, save your time.
 
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Offline ejeffrey

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2022, 04:46:04 am »
Wow, consider me... Amused. I think. Sounds like a wonderful way to generate e-waste and make things even less repairable. Not to mention that assuming that the entire industry would abandon solder is laughable (obviously)

I don't think the idea that all or a large chunk of the industry changing the way they do things is inherently laughable or unreasonable.  The industry has made many major shifts over the years.  But the linked article is pretty much content free even by press release standards, and doesn't say anything about what they actually do.  There are some links to white papers posted in the comments section but if they can't be bothered to explain the basics of their technology I'm not going to go read their website.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2022, 07:37:08 am »
There’s basically nothing on the website either.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2022, 09:36:02 am »
Well, there is a wee bit on information, to be fair:

Quote
At Occam, we have developed a process that supplants solder—and PCBs—with a new methodology for component assembly. We sometimes describe it as reverse order processing.

Our vision is to first attach components to a “component board” and test that assembly before encapsulation and circuitization. This ensures that all assemblies are known to be good at the outset. There are several methods for adding component connections, including traditional plating techniques and additive printed circuits (printed electronics).

The basic idea seems to be that they physically attach the components to a carrier, without any electrical connections. Then "encapsulate" them, presumably embedding them in epoxy or such to get a clean planar surface in the same plane as all the component contacts. Then make the connections by adding traces, in a process similar to what is used for making bare PCBs today.

But indeed, where's the beef?
 

Online tom66

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2022, 11:39:24 am »
I can't see how you could achieve the density of connections for something like QFN or BGA.  If this works - and that's a big "if" - it's going to be limited to the simplest circuits, unless there's some as of yet undisclosed magic process to improve the reliability and connection density.

I'm also not sure how encapsulating everything in epoxy is supposed to reduce e-waste, when doing so will make it impossible to repair an assembly.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2022, 12:30:48 pm »
The basic idea seems to be that they physically attach the components to a carrier, without any electrical connections. Then "encapsulate" them, presumably embedding them in epoxy or such to get a clean planar surface in the same plane as all the component contacts. Then make the connections by adding traces, in a process similar to what is used for making bare PCBs today.
PCBs are mostly made using a subtractive process. I suppose it might be possible to deposit copper onto a photoresist mask like is done for making chips.
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Offline jpanhalt

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2022, 01:47:15 pm »
In about 2011-2013 Jennifer Lewis and others had a startup in Akron, OH for making circuits without solder.  That is, additive PCB's.  I can't find that news release, but her she is giving a lecture on it:
[plain]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sry17B8SYGk [/plain]

That process uses the well-known Tollens reagent with modified reagents.  Here's her original publication in JACS: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja209267c

I suspect the order of process is to attach components, make connections, then encapsulate as needed. 
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 01:48:55 pm by jpanhalt »
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2022, 07:10:57 pm »
well you can still mill it and use rubberized abrasives for cleanup then install PCB sections. Annoying trash like chip flip glue packages

Someone is going to develop a repair tool that uses pace microchine technology to automill PCB and avoid mangling the metal too much, like a cleaning mill. I wonder if you can put a RF current into the conductors and then have the mill avoid the traces by detecting proximity to RF fields to remove 90% of the gunk and then hand polish away the rest after some chemical weakening using fiberglass sticks.

Typical xenomorph problem.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 07:16:27 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline hans

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2022, 08:10:56 pm »
Here is 1 patent: https://scholar.google.com/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=6Q4QknsAAAAJ&sortby=pubdate&citation_for_view=6Q4QknsAAAAJ:Mojj43d5GZwC

The figures from fig1-6 depicts a few assembly steps. First components are placed on an adhesive sheet so they are all horizontally level. Then adhesive is applied on top and they are lowered in a negative template (machined or molded). The hole on top is to let excess adhesive escape. The adhesive around the parts are cured, and the sheet on the bottom is removed. How the adhesive finds it way around the part without leaving air bubbles, instead of all going through the vent hole is a mystery to me.

This patent refers to the final assembly in which an anisotropic conductor is used: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/fc/dd/f9/f31bfd82598b7a/US20090017264A1.pdf

It basically looks like some kind of a zebra strip material. I suppose the material has very small vertical conductive pillars that are distributed semi-randomly so that any top point can be find conduction to the bottom part of the sheet, but due to the small structure size does not short to nearby pins for a small pitch layouts.

I do wonder though.. sure this may be solderless, but it looks like it removes all options of heatsinking for a kind of component. We don't know the thermal conductivity of the anisotropic conductor to the PCB, but I expect it to be fairly poor. The component is molded in, so it would need special provisions to add a heatsink afterwards. Since all electronics consume some kind of power, especially power supplies, I would see that as a major concern. Ironically the thermal stress is one it tries to solve.
The website talks about the frame being an integral heatsink to the design. But personally I think: compared to a conventional heatsink, you now add a potentially relatively thick substrate and additional adhesive that needs to correct for machining tolerances of a whole PCB (instead of only the tolerance in 1 part). I don't think those 2 combined can be "better" than what we now have, as it was not it's initial goal. It would probably be very good in distributing the heat around the whole PCB though.


Second I wonder about the structural rigidity. We still like through-hole mounted connectors because they can be much stronger than SMT. Sure the component frame may provide extra stability for the connector at the point of largest leverage, perhaps it can also add as a very good mechanical shock conductor and introduce new problems. It may not be solder related, but with respects to bad contacts, metal fatigue in braided wires, etc.
And then clearly this concept isn't going to work for all components. Straight up connectors can't be covered by the frame, but how would it be secured in place? Right angle connectors only? Well, FFC connectors also require a lever operation so need to be partially free. Etc.

I suppose it can work out, but I'm not convinced that removing soldering is going to suddenly make electronics a lot more reliable.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 08:18:27 pm by hans »
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2022, 08:22:35 pm »
Doesn't seem like something that would ever be cheaper, but maybe it could be more robust (the whole thing is potted in the process?) or compact (depends how you build the PCB layers I guess?), or maybe some obscure use cases where solder (leaded or otherwise) isn't otherwise applicable.  Which is basically to say, a resin-based, printed/additive alternative to laser-etched ceramic hybrids?  Finer pitch than screen printed (multilayer) ceramics?

I don't see that it would ever be, like, super higher temperature rated, unless the resin is replaced with a low-fire ceramic that manages to not destroy the components (chip resistors could oxidize, chip capacitors could oxidize too, maybe other effects given their precise formulation?), let alone the silicon chips themselves.  (Counterpoint: SiC chips.)  But that wouldn't be printed I think; there are known ceramic-tape deposition methods that could be used to build that.  Although... if it's getting fired, there must be shrinkage, I don't know how you'd get around that.  So nevermind, I guess...  But anyway, just to say, it's probably not an alternative to traditional metal-ceramic builds, with solder, braze or wirebond, for high temperatures.

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Offline etiTopic starter

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2022, 12:40:35 am »
I can’t see soldered PCBs being replaced by this. Ever.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2022, 02:26:44 pm »
The basic idea seems to be that they physically attach the components to a carrier, without any electrical connections. Then "encapsulate" them, presumably embedding them in epoxy or such to get a clean planar surface in the same plane as all the component contacts. Then make the connections by adding traces, in a process similar to what is used for making bare PCBs today.
PCBs are mostly made using a subtractive process. I suppose it might be possible to deposit copper onto a photoresist mask like is done for making chips.
Not really. It’s not like home PCB etching which is purely subtractive. Commercial PCB production is surprisingly a mostly additive process these days. There are some videos by PCB manufacturers going through the detailed steps, and it’s quite different from what one might intuitively expect.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2022, 02:36:18 pm »
it could be either one IMO, you just need chemical recycling technology for dealing with the byproducts to remake copper. Always efficency improvements to be made there.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2022, 02:46:15 pm »
Not really. It’s not like home PCB etching which is purely subtractive. Commercial PCB production is surprisingly a mostly additive process these days. There are some videos by PCB manufacturers going through the detailed steps, and it’s quite different from what one might intuitively expect.
The copper layer still seems to be done as a sheet that gets etched away. The solder mask and silkscreen are done with an additive process.
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Offline tooki

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2022, 02:47:42 pm »
it could be either one IMO, you just need chemical recycling technology for dealing with the byproducts to remake copper. Always efficency improvements to be made there.
If you’re referring to my prior post: It’s not about efficiency, though it benefits that too. It’s that plated through-holes are inherently an additive process, and they’re now omnipresent. You have to do it additively.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2022, 02:49:43 pm »
Not really. It’s not like home PCB etching which is purely subtractive. Commercial PCB production is surprisingly a mostly additive process these days. There are some videos by PCB manufacturers going through the detailed steps, and it’s quite different from what one might intuitively expect.
The copper layer still seems to be done as a sheet that gets etched away. The solder mask and silkscreen are done with an additive process.
[video]
Even in that video, which does NOT cover all the steps in detail, they say that they have to “add copper”.

The cladding on the bare boards is just enough to allow a clean etch. It’s then additively built up to the final thickness. This is necessary because played through-holes are necessarily an additive process.

(Solder mask can be subtractive, using laminated-on film that’s then exposed and developed, or additively using a silkscreen process followed by UV curing.)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 02:55:07 pm by tooki »
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2022, 02:55:02 pm »
there are down sides to reliability doing it that way vs rolled copper, in terms of surface finish and fracturability. The electrodeposited stuff cracks easier/differently (complex tradeoff). Lots of different way to get even the raw copper sheet for a etch, let alone additive manufacturing.

options  ;D


for PCB raw stock, they like to dip a roller in a electroplate solution and spin it till it gets thick enough to cut off.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 03:01:14 pm by coppercone2 »
 
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Offline jpanhalt

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2022, 06:33:33 pm »
Chemically deposited silver as described is quite shiny (it is still used for front surface mirrors), solderable, and flexible.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2022, 07:28:40 pm »
The copper layer still seems to be done as a sheet that gets etched away. The solder mask and silkscreen are done with an additive process.


Ah, right. I can see how thinking about additive processes reminded you of that video.
 
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Offline jpanhalt

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2022, 10:06:57 pm »
You seem to suffer the same affliction for pretty, young, its, in skimpy clothes as  NiHaoMike does.  Just wait 40 years or so, and you will see the light.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2022, 11:56:51 pm »
Ah, right. I can see how thinking about additive processes reminded you of that video.
A look inside a PCB factory, exactly on topic.
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Offline coppercone2

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2022, 01:10:03 am »
someones wife must have gotten on the computer
 

Online ebastler

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2022, 08:20:36 am »
You seem to suffer the same affliction for pretty, young, its, in skimpy clothes as  NiHaoMike does. 
You seem to read something into my comment which I neither wrote nor thought. I think Mike got my drift though.

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Just wait 40 years or so, and you will see the light.
That would be the heavenly light by then, I trust...  ::)
 

Offline tooki

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Re: [Article] Solder-less circuits (apparently)
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2022, 01:00:12 pm »
Ah, right. I can see how thinking about additive processes reminded you of that video.
;D

(I’m gay, so I’m immune to her sorcery!  :P)
 


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