Author Topic: [AU] Buying Carbon Dioxide fire extinguishers... who knew it would be difficult?  (Read 10850 times)

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Offline Distelzombie

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You won't find any. All the halons were due to be phased out by 2010 under the Montreal Protocol. They were generally replaced by FM200 aka HFC-227.
You can find anything that is banned ANYWHERE in China, for sell, sold under a different name. There are documentations from undercover journalists.

Offline Cerebus

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You can find anything that is banned ANYWHERE in China, for sell, sold under a different name.

I think around here that's taken as a given, unfortunately.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Distelzombie

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You can find anything that is banned ANYWHERE in China, for sell, sold under a different name.

I think around here that's taken as a given, unfortunately.
What? You were objecting!

Offline Cerebus

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You can find anything that is banned ANYWHERE in China, for sell, sold under a different name.

I think around here that's taken as a given, unfortunately.
What? You were objecting!

I haven't a clue what you think I was objecting to.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Quote
I actually would like to get a halon bottle for my home lab.

You won't find any. All the halons were due to be phased out by 2010 under the Montreal Protocol. They were generally replaced by FM200 aka HFC-227.
That

Offline joeqsmith

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In my home lab, I have a small bottle of 1211 Halon.   I've yet to do anything stupid enough to need it.   

Looks like we can still buy it.
http://www.airgas.com/p/A61C352TS?agcert=Certona:Airgas+Recommends:A61C352TS:5:A61361:nosale

Video comparing 1211 w/ carbon dioxide
https://youtu.be/Aw025Ho8KyM?t=192

Offline Cerebus

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Quote
I actually would like to get a halon bottle for my home lab.

You won't find any. All the halons were due to be phased out by 2010 under the Montreal Protocol. They were generally replaced by FM200 aka HFC-227.
That

Language issues I guess. In English that's not what I'd call an objection, that's just a statement of fact. An objection would be to say something to the effect of "I don't want you to do that/don't think you ought to do that" which is very different from "You won't be able to do that". That there is somewhere in the world were one might find a halon extinguisher for sale doesn't mean that Blueskull, in the US, will find one down the hardware store, or could even lawfully import one.

I'm assuming that all the civilized countries actually got around to following their Montreal Protocol obligations. Certainly here in the UK we were not fitting new halon systems as long ago as 2000, when I was last involved in specifying fire suppression system for installation at my then employers premises. That was well in advance of the deadline for an outright ban on them.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Cerebus

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In my home lab, I have a small bottle of 1211 Halon.   I've yet to do anything stupid enough to need it.

Funnily enough so have I. Now, what are we bid for these, now forbidden, delights of the fire-fighting arts?  :)

Quote
Looks like we can still buy it.
http://www.airgas.com/p/A61C352TS?agcert=Certona:Airgas+Recommends:A61C352TS:5:A61361:nosale

That looks to be an aircraft specific bottle. I wonder if there's a continuing permitted use for flight systems? Weight/toxicity being traded off against ozone depletion potential? Similar to the way that CFCs continued to be permitted for medical uses (e.g. asthma inhalers) well after they'd been withdrawn from other uses. Eventually those were replaced with HFCs and I think they are looking at eventually phasing out HFCs from medical use just as they are beginning to be phased out of other uses. Everything else that used to use CFCs or HFCs as propellants now seems to use propane or some other hydrocarbon gas - which, from a fire safety point of view, I find less than comforting. Somehow I don't think we'll see that in asthma inhalers or there are going to be some very messy accidents.

Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline mtdoc

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You can get Halatron fire extinguishers for a reasonable price. Just do a google search.
 

Offline Distelzombie

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You won't find any. All the halons were due to be phased out by 2010 under the Montreal Protocol. They were generally replaced by FM200 aka HFC-227.
...
Language issues I guess. In English that's not what I'd call an objection, that's just a statement of fact. An objection would be to say something to the effect of "I don't want you to do that/don't think you ought to do that" which is very different from "You won't be able to do that". That there is somewhere in the world were one might find a halon extinguisher for sale doesn't mean that Blueskull, in the US, will find one down the hardware store, or could even lawfully import one.

Yeah, you're right. I read that as: "Halon is no longer sold and impossible to get since it's manufacturing was stopped 2010" which is close but  false. oops

You can get Halatron fire extinguishers for a reasonable price. Just do a google search.
Thats a different chemical that is not as destructive to the ozone layer, but thanks, I take a look.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 03:45:29 am by Distelzombie »
 

Offline HalcyonTopic starter

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All good, I've sourced a supply of CO2 extinguishers from an Australia-wide wholesaler, they were more than happy to help out, I just needed to ask.
 

Offline TerraHertz

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All good, I've sourced a supply of CO2 extinguishers from an Australia-wide wholesaler, they were more than happy to help out, I just needed to ask.

Great. But are you going to tell us if the extinguishers are for sale or lease, and what is the maintenance deal on them? What sort of costs, especially for refills? Can't name the company? Did you price compare between say Chubb and Wormald?
Collecting old scopes, logic analyzers, and unfinished projects. http://everist.org
 

Offline HalcyonTopic starter

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All good, I've sourced a supply of CO2 extinguishers from an Australia-wide wholesaler, they were more than happy to help out, I just needed to ask.

Great. But are you going to tell us if the extinguishers are for sale or lease, and what is the maintenance deal on them? What sort of costs, especially for refills? Can't name the company? Did you price compare between say Chubb and Wormald?

For sale, no maintenance agreement. Treated as a one-off sale. Cost for a 5KG CO2 extinguisher is under $150. I don't want to name the company at this stage. I'll speak to the manager there first to see if he is happy with it. Sourcing Chubb or Worlmald gear unless you're in "the business" seems almost impossible.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 12:38:38 pm by Halcyon »
 

Offline Psi

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Just have some of these in your lab, they wont make a mess or anything.  :-DD


Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline TerraHertz

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"if he is happy with it"  Ah, I see.

Well, good to know it's possible at least. Did they mention if they will refill random customer-owned CO2 extinguishers, and the cost?
Do you know what the expiry span of the cylinders is? Any?
Hopefully not like propane cylinders, that are not legal to refill after ten years of life. At least not without getting them pressure-tested, but there don't seem to be any economical channels to actually do that.
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Offline Distelzombie

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What's inside EXPLODING Fire Extinguisher Balls?
Some guy, apparently.

I was searching for Halotron extinguisher but couldn't find a retailer or a single extinguisher anywhere. On the AP website is an email address from someone in Germany, so I just asked that dude. No reply yet. I really like these things now. They sound cool and they appear to me as the best thing to have if there's a fire in a room with stuff you actually like.

Offline HalcyonTopic starter

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"if he is happy with it"  Ah, I see.

Well, good to know it's possible at least. Did they mention if they will refill random customer-owned CO2 extinguishers, and the cost?
Do you know what the expiry span of the cylinders is? Any?
Hopefully not like propane cylinders, that are not legal to refill after ten years of life. At least not without getting them pressure-tested, but there don't seem to be any economical channels to actually do that.

I'm not worried about life, provided they comply with Australian standards (and they do), they should last well and truly for several years. I think in my entire time as a firey, I might have come across one extinguisher that leaked and there is no guarantee that it hadn't been discharged previously.

I'm using them in my own personal lab. I can conduct the inspections myself to my own satisfaction. I care not whether it's "legal". At the end of the day, if the thing is charged, I squeeze the trigger, CO2 comes out.

I didn't ask them about refills. Even if they aren't refillable, if I have to spend a few hundred dollars in 10 years time to replace them with new ones, money well spent. I spend more on coffee throughout a single year.

They are pressure tested when they leave the factory at pressures well and truly beyond their charge pressure. That will do me fine.

I'm not being coy because I want to be, but because I don't know the reasons why someone can't just walk in off the street to Bunnings (or whoever) and buy one of these. It seems like bullshit to me and I doubt there is any legal reason for it (I have asked the company specifically this and am waiting for their reply). This company is doing me a favour for reasons members of this forum don't need to know, but if they are happy for me to promote their brand, I'll do so and share what I've learned. In the mean time, I don't want to name a company who might not want to be named (for whatever reason).

The only thing I'll say at this stage is they have distributors in most states in Australia and are a wholesale provider of fire fighting equipment to various organisations. A little bit of Googling and simply asking the question will probably get you similar results, without having to resort to paying something stupid like $200 for a 2KG extinguisher off some online-only store.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 12:36:23 pm by Halcyon »
 

Offline Nauris

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We have a hand-pump one like this in the shop. Real handy if you have small fires often and super easy to refill.
 

Offline mtdoc

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I've got one of these in my lab.  Easier and quicker to throw small flaming electronics in this than to waste my fire extinguisher.

 

Offline HalcyonTopic starter

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The response from my supplier was this:

"Normally if anyone from the public would approach us we wouldn’t sell to them, we also don’t even sell to builders, electricians or even facilities maintenance companies. We wholesale to Fire Protection companies only. Some of our wholesale competitors would have sold to the general public but we don’t. Chubb and Wormald are service companies, they install fire protection systems they don’t retail products. It’s kind of like walking onto a building site and trying to buy screws from the builder. ABE’s are the most common extinguishers because of how versatile they are, they do almost all fire situations very very well. CO2 is only better for electrical fires and if you want to protect the actual equipment not just extinguish the fire."

So I guess it just comes down to a combination of "popularity" and being able to make a profit. In a business environment, extinguishers are inspected, tested, replaced frequently which forms part of the business. Home users are unlikely to do this.
 

Offline Distelzombie

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I've got one of these in my lab.  Easier and quicker to throw small flaming electronics in this than to waste my fire extinguisher.


That is, weirdly, a beautiful picture. The light works perfectly, the colors work... I would buy it. Good on ya, marketing.
Anyway, isn't the ground getting burned if you throw flaming stuff on a metal container? Does it sit on bricks? It's not water tight, is it?

Offline mtdoc

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That is, weirdly, a beautiful picture. The light works perfectly, the colors work... I would buy it. Good on ya, marketing.
Anyway, isn't the ground getting burned if you throw flaming stuff on a metal container? Does it sit on bricks? It's not water tight, is it?

Ha, ha - I copied from a google search but I have the same one in my lab. So far I've not had to throw any raging inferno's into it.

My lab is in my basement with a concrete floor (covered by a rug). Hard to imagine any burning electronics that would be amenable to throwing into the metal bucket but also be be in danger of heating up the bucket enough to burn the ground.    Putting the lid on it should put the fire out quick enough in any case.

It is water tight - it's a bucket!  Why do you ask?
 

Offline paulca

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I use CO2 extinguishers for both a homebrew keg and a fishtank (CO2 injection for plant growth).  I got them from the local "Fire solutions" places.  Both reconditioned, fully tested and full for about £25 each.  To refill them I just take them back and swap them for a full one for £15.

In all the offices I have worked in the FE stands have one water, one CO2, although I have seen foam once or twice.  In offices fires will be paper, furnishings or electrical.  Smothering blankets also appear in kitchens which have anything more than a microwave.

Interestingly the local gas supplier would not supply a residential address, telling me that CO2 was a hazard.  I tried to argue that was my risk not theirs but they refused to sell me it.

The hospitality trade suppliers would provide me CO2, but only if I used the same bottles they used as they would test each on return and only provide me a full one if the test passed.  I do have a pub bottle, but it's not the same size as the local supplier uses and I would have to pay a surcharge to upgrade my bottle.  The FE is cheaper.... there are caveats though due to it being a syphon bottle.  So any use that is not trickle flow (such as priming or cleaning a keg) it needs used upside down or it freezes the regulator and that can get scary.
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Offline TerraHertz

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Nowhere near as pretty a bin, but these old steel office bins are worth their weight in gold. More modern ones made of mesh or plastic are just stupid.

This particular one really saved my arse once long ago. I'd been using liquid propane in a styrofoam container to freeze things. (Teenagers, sheesh!)
Fine, except there's a boil-off, and propane gas is heavier than air.  There was a lot of untidy stuff on the table and floor. Some spark ignited the sheet of propane gas. Whhompf! The propane burn lasted about one second, but left dozens of small spot fires on the bench and floor. The most spectacular one was a very old drafting setsquare, that was made of nitrocellulose. A corner of that had been sticking out from a stack of papers and magazines. Nitrocellulose is effectively guncotton, doesn't need oxygen to burn, and burns fast and hot. The stack of papers started shooting a horizontal sheet of flame out the sides.
I knew there was no way to put it out, so picked up the entire mess and dropped it into this bin. Then put a board on top. That gave me enough time to put out all the other minor fires.

It's now my machineshop bin. It's twice had 'oily rag' type fires start in it, from welding sparks. Not a problem, just cover the top.
Collecting old scopes, logic analyzers, and unfinished projects. http://everist.org
 
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Offline oldway

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Firefighters often say: 30 seconds, a glass of water, 2 minutes, a bucket of water, 5 minutes, a water truck and after? One does what one can.

The big secret is to extinguish a fire as soon as possible, at its beginning.
This is all the usefulness of a fire extinguisher.

But to use a fire extinguisher other than a CO2 extinguisher in a workshop, that means the probable loss of all the expensive measuring instruments that we have ....

That's why the only valid solution is in my opinion the 5Kgs CO2 extinguisher .... easy to use, without causing any damage.

I think we should all have one.

I bought mine used CO2 fire extinguisher for just 50 euros .... It is like new and was regularly inspected.
 


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