Author Topic: [solved] [little rant] eBay seller charges +20 USD because he has to pay rent  (Read 13783 times)

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Offline asmi

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Re: [little rant] eBay seller charges +20 USD because he has to pay rent
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2021, 01:43:03 pm »
Yup! I fully agree! But eBay is that way. I just wanted to tell you how it works for them.
I wonder what all other numbers are for then. In this case they seem totally redundant and frankly irrelevant.

Online DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: [little rant] eBay seller charges +20 USD because he has to pay rent
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2021, 02:16:33 pm »
Yup! I fully agree! But eBay is that way. I just wanted to tell you how it works for them.
I wonder what all other numbers are for then. In this case they seem totally redundant and frankly irrelevant.

Which numbers? You mean the four voices to describe the performance of a seller?

foreach voice { "Reasonable postage cost", "Communication", "Delivery time", "Accurate
description" } => Vote [[ 0..5 ]] stars;

Umm, I think they are "somehow" useful, but I think it's not enough information to describe how someone could react, especially with overseas transactions when - like wrote above - bad sellers feel more at ease to play shenanigans with foreigners, and eBay com protect these behaviors by *deleting* negative feedback, which makes those four voice actually truly irrelevant.

That's my personal opinion, based on 4 bad experiences with eBay dot com in the last 10 years  :-//
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 02:20:51 pm by DiTBho »
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Online DiTBhoTopic starter

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I was going to mention that it may be a problem with overseas transactions - who knows? Perhaps the bad sellers feel more at ease to play shenanigans with foreigners.

Yup, I have the same feelings.

Despite I have received a badly packaged item here and there from various sellers worldwide (and from different portals: eBay, Offerup, aliexpress, banggood), I tend to be very conservative and refrain from ordering anything ultra-heavy or mechanically fragile over courier. Being in the US this is a lot easier to do, given the second hand electronics market is quite hot.

Good point.  I am a kind of "weird electronic addicted", and the US marketplace offers unique items because for example Newark and Moates are two US-only-based companies. So, when I saw a very attractive and unique items offered from someone on eBay, I took the challange about organizing a remote pickups and I asked UPS to go to the seller, pickup the parcel locally in the US, check the packaging was well done, and transport it to me in Europe. I paid the double, but I also doubled my chances to have the receive the precious goods in a decent way.

We are talking about unique professional debuggers unable to find in Europe. Things in the money range of 2000-5000 USD + S/H + customs importing fee. Great experience, and nice end! UPS combined with the MailBox.Etc American side is simply outstanding!

I did something similar, this time, as seller to a Chinese government agency. They contacted me on eBay because I was listing a unique PowerPC board that they need as cheaper development equipment to replace something gone damaged in their laboratory. I still have the contract they asked me to sign.

In short, I paid UPS and MailBox.Etc Europe to ensure an excellent service to them. I remember in the contract I signed there was a point "the goods will be inspected for our quality control", and I had to list all the items inside the parcel, with a description of each singular item inside the parcel and how to test/verify its integrity. If someone is curious, I still have the documentation.

I paid 150 euro just for the service (UPS first class+MailBox.Etc+full 100% insurance), they paid 1000 euro for a couple of boards (so, my gain was 1000-150 euro).

Outstanding experience, they thanked me for the result, I thanked them for the given opportunity, and eBay gained credits for my performance :D

Anyways, good luck with the return.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 02:45:03 pm by DiTBho »
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Offline asmi

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Re: [little rant] eBay seller charges +20 USD because he has to pay rent
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2021, 07:24:35 pm »
Which numbers? You mean the four voices to describe the performance of a seller?
I meant 1, 2 and 3 stars. As I understand, 1, 2, 3 and 4 means the same thing from the practical standpoint, so why bother with them? Why don't they just place a "yes/no" question instead of these silly stars.

Online DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: [little rant] eBay seller charges +20 USD because he has to pay rent
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2021, 09:11:25 pm »
Which numbers? You mean the four voices to describe the performance of a seller?
I meant 1, 2 and 3 stars. As I understand, 1, 2, 3 and 4 means the same thing from the practical standpoint, so why bother with them? Why don't they just place a "yes/no" question instead of these silly stars.

Probably it's a legacy mechanism of the previous feedback system, when a seller had the possibility to give a negative, neutral, positive feedback to the customer, but since eBay has evolved recently, I think it's also something that must deal with a lot of their internal hidden rules, so I am sure that if you vote {0,1,2,3} stars you reduce the chances eBay gives to the seller to get back in line.

I mean something like this:
  • you get 4 stars, you have - say - 6 months to get back in line with >= 4.1 stars, and you will be under observation for say other 2 months, if you fail, you are kicked out from eBay
  • you get 3 stars, you have - say - 7 months to get back in line with >= 4.1 stars, and you will be under observation for say other 4 months, if you fail, you are kicked out from eBay
  • you get 2 stars, you have - say - 8 months to get back in line with >= 4.1 stars, and you will be under observation for say other 6 months, if you fail, you are kicked out from eBay
  • you get 1 stars, you will be immediately kicked out from eBay but your name and surname won't be written in their blacklist
  • you get 0 stars, you will be immediately kicked out from eBay and your name and surname will be written in their blacklist, as well as reported to the authorities of competence in order to prevent crimes


I deduce it from the message, sent by one of their operator, when I asked eBay why they deleted the negative feedback I released to a seller who not only sent me damaged goods but also (as in this case) refused to find a solution!

Quote
Those privileges can be earned by making sure your account is in good standings for a long time, have proven high satisfactory ratings from buyers, high resolve rate and etc

I checked the feedback you left and although it did not meet the criteria for MANUAL REMOVAL, it qualified for system removal. Due to one of the seller’s privileges which he exercised on this issue.

At the same time, for the purposes of giving you a peace of mind please know that you did not do anything wrong. I assure you that the removal does not have anything to do with negatives or violations against you. It’s just more on the default settings on our system along with the seller’s privileges. Keep in mind that although the removed feedback is not visible for other eBay members to see, we still have a record of it, and we will always be able to refer to it if necessary.

and this

Quote
.. We may not be able to reinstate the feedback and 3 stars you left for the seller but this report that you submit to us generates a red flag against the seller's account internally.
..

« Last Edit: March 26, 2021, 09:23:36 pm by DiTBho »
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Offline wraper

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Re: [little rant] eBay seller charges +20 USD because he has to pay rent
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2021, 09:17:05 pm »
  • you get 1 stars, you will be immediately kicked out from eBay but your name and surname won't be written in their blacklist
  • you get 0 stars, you will be immediately kicked out from eBay and your name and surname will be written in their blacklist, as well as reported to the authorities of competence in order to prevent crimes
Be real. Such nonsense will kick out many excellent sellers (and keep all others in fear) just because some random idiot or scammer buyer decides to abuse the system (extort seller) or just leaves bad rating randomly. If something like this is implemented, ebay will cease to exist very soon. I received negative feedback just because buyer was an idiot (no issue with item) and could not be bothered to google about his (perceived) issue or contact me first.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2021, 09:22:58 pm by wraper »
 

Online DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: [little rant] eBay seller charges +20 USD because he has to pay rent
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2021, 09:28:56 pm »
Be real. Such nonsense will kick out many excellent sellers

That's precisely what happened in 2009 (Google for it, and you will read it), and what's happening now!

just because some random idiot or scammer buyer decides to abuse the system (extort seller) or just leaves bad rating randomly.

You probably mean some idiot or scammer sellers! To whom eBay gives too many chances to get back in line, and in the meanwhile the continue to  put nothing but garbage for sale and, worse still, don't assume any responsibility for what they do!
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Offline wraper

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Re: [little rant] eBay seller charges +20 USD because he has to pay rent
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2021, 09:35:08 pm »
You probably mean some idiot or scammer sellers!
I mean fraudulent buyers of which there are way more bad actors than sellers. They abuse system a lot even as it is. They can easily ship you back box of bricks and get both goods and money. Allowing them to have ability of single handedly destroying a seller is simply insane. Example: https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/Victim-of-buyer-fraud/td-p/28471713
Example2: https://turbofuture.com/internet/How-To-Scam-People-On-Ebay
Quote
I sold a rather large item on eBay. The buyer received it and put in a dispute stating that it did not work. It was a lie, as I had fully tested it and knew it worked, but there was nothing I could do. I accepted that he was lying and offered a full refund if he returned the item. He agreed, but then sent me an empty box via UPS. He provided the tracking number to eBay and they automatically gave him his money back. I told eBay that he sent me an empty box and they asked me to take a picture of the label to show that the box only weighed as much as an empty box would weigh. "Okay" I said. Guess what? He sent the package with a label he printed online that said he paid for a 12 lb. package! There was nothing I could do!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2021, 09:44:25 pm by wraper »
 
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Offline helius

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I'm frankly surprised by the lack of research and understanding shown in this thread, given the venue is an electronics engineering forum.
eBay's policies are not complicated and you can read them fully in only a few minutes. Why don't you do that? If you did you would learn all about the Buyer Protection Program and Item Not As Described claims. Instead you just ignored the policies and did it your own way because you assumed how it should work?

To me this is just bizarre. What do you do when faced with a STM32 chip with a 500 page datasheet? The same, well I guess I'll do this because I assumed ... ? Good luck with that!
 

Offline wraper

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This buyer scam happened to me in particular:
Quote
If the tracking says that the item was delivered, it is a little more difficult. In this case, you have to be very creative. You could say that the tracking is wrong and that you never received a package and that no one signed anything for a package so there is no proof you got it.
Surprisingly paypal refunded buyer from their own pocket, not mine. Buyer provided address with post code of main post office of the city. Of course tracking showed delivery with actual post code for his address. Then buyer claimed it was delivered not to him because tracking shows wrong postcode. I uploaded google maps screenshot with particular post office located something like 50 meters away from his address.
Quote
Dear **** ****,

We’ve completed our review of this case. Due to the unique circumstances, we've decided to refund the buyer at no cost to you.

Your account won't be debited and the case has been closed.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2021, 09:58:15 pm by wraper »
 
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Online DiTBhoTopic starter

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I'm frankly surprised by the lack of research and understanding shown in this thread

As well as I'm frankly surprised by answer like this. Lack of research and understanding?

eBay's policies are not complicated and you can read them fully in only a few minutes. Why don't you do that?

I did, but there are hidden rules. For instance, where is it written they can DELETE a negative feedback because a seller has some privilege? Where?

If you did you would learn all about the Buyer Protection Program and Item Not As Described claims.

They closed the claim without any justification.
I had opened a claim "Item received damaged", and eBay closed it
Then I opened an appeal "Item received not as described + more details, pics etc", and eBay closed it again.

Instead you just ignored the policies and did it your own way because you assumed how it should work?

Then I called Paypal, which actually solved the problem.
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Online DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: [little rant] eBay seller charges +20 USD because he has to pay rent
« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2021, 10:17:39 pm »
I mean fraudulent buyers of which there are way more bad actors than sellers. They abuse system a lot even as it is. They can easily ship you back box of bricks and get both goods and money.

Then there are those who tell me I don't know how eBay works: there is "report buyer" button on eBay where you "report" bad behaviors like this and eBay will count it as well as eBay counts defects for sellers.

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Offline wraper

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Re: [little rant] eBay seller charges +20 USD because he has to pay rent
« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2021, 10:21:10 pm »
I mean fraudulent buyers of which there are way more bad actors than sellers. They abuse system a lot even as it is. They can easily ship you back box of bricks and get both goods and money.

Then there are those who tell me I don't know how eBay works: there is "report buyer" button on eBay where you "report" bad behaviors like this and eBay will count it as well as eBay counts defects for sellers.
Report buyer button does nothing, especially for a seller. Seller will not get money or goods back. If reported too many times and account is blocked, fraudulent buyer will simply create another account.
 

Online DiTBhoTopic starter

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Buyer Protection Program and Item Not As Described claims

Specifically, where is it written that if the seller writes "no return" in his/her auction then for the "protection program" you cannot return an item that got damaged due to bad packaging? Where is it written?
eBay resolving-buying-problems
I still have to understand why they closed my claim when I did exactly what's written in their guide!
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 12:14:09 am by DiTBho »
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Offline wraper

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IMHO your main problem with ebay is that you open cases with weak or no evidence, probably poorly described for layman. Then when it falls through, you upload some real evidence, but it's too late since appeal is way less likely to succeed.
 

Online DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: [little rant] eBay seller charges +20 USD because he has to pay rent
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2021, 10:25:50 pm »
fraudulent buyer will simply create another account.

In theory, if you are banned from eBay you cannot subscribe again. It's written in their user-agreement, where it's also written that eBay randomly checks correlations(1) between suspended accounts and running accounts in order to prevent problems.


(1)
the same Paypal account, used to pay
the same delivery address
the same name and surname
etc ...
this information is not public, so I don't know details, but I was told on the Phone that eBay does it.
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Offline wraper

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Re: [little rant] eBay seller charges +20 USD because he has to pay rent
« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2021, 10:29:49 pm »
It's written in their user-agreement
As if it's allowed to scam other party in the user agreement to begin with.
Quote
where it's also written that eBay randomly checks correlations(1) between suspended accounts and running accounts in order to prevent problems.
Can be quite easily bypassed. Delivery address can be obfuscated. You don't even need PayPal account.
Quote
the same name and surname
Of which there are thousands of people. You can write it slightly differently as well.
 

Online DiTBhoTopic starter

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IMHO your main problem with ebay is that you open cases with weak or no evidence, probably poorly described for layman. Then when it falls through, you upload some real evidence, but it's too late since appeal is way less likely to succeed.

Jesus ... weak or no evidence?!?

I received two damaged units, when I opened my claim for the "eBay protection program" I sent them all the pics about the two units, my test report on Linux when you see "sector-0 failure", a pic of the parcel, a pic with what I paid on eBay for the shipping and what is reported on the Parcel, what else do they want!?!?

For their rules, it was enough to point out that I paid 35 USD for a package that cost 14, or that the seller had charged me 20 USD more.

Then I sent the same documentation to Paypal, and they accepted the return!

-

And talking about the defective laptop, what did they want? It was clearly NOT the same laptop described in the auction, in fact the seller himself admitted it later with Paypal, but eBay refused to investigate!

-

Frankly, do you know what I think? When I deal with eBay com, I have the impression that it does not deign to treat non-American users in the same way since it has always closed complaints to me without any discussion.

I have this impression because in 10 years with eBay UK claims always had a different ends, an end where the "eBay protection program" hasn't yet forced me to call Paypal to manage a problem as well as no one has yet told me that an European seller has privileges that they cannot receive negative feedback! Yet this happened with american sellers!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2021, 11:04:08 pm by DiTBho »
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Online DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: [little rant] eBay seller charges +20 USD because he has to pay rent
« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2021, 10:50:57 pm »
Of which there are thousands of people. You can write it slightly differently as well.

It's one of the field they "can" use, it's not the only field they use. I mean it can trigger more automatic  investigations, and I am sure they put a lot of money in such algorithms because they have lost 1M Euro recently due to scammers who cause legal problems related to the forgery of trademarks. Plus other problems they have with their users.

A thing they cannot do is asking you to upload your identification card, or your passport or any personal document. This is illegal and they know it!

But that's also a bad point, in my opinion. eBay is a "free service", if it was a "pay service", they they would be authorized to ask personal documents, and this way ... end game for scammers.

My personal opinion: that would simplify life for sellers and remove the ridiculous 5 stars counter mechanism.

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Offline SilverSolder

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IMHO your main problem with ebay is that you open cases with weak or no evidence, probably poorly described for layman. Then when it falls through, you upload some real evidence, but it's too late since appeal is way less likely to succeed.

Jesus ... weak or no evidence?!?

I received two damaged units, when I opened my claim for the "eBay protection program" I sent them all the pics about the two units, my test report on Linux when you see "sector-0 failure", a pic of the parcel, a pic with what I paid on eBay for the shipping and what is reported on the Parcel, what else do they want!?!?

For their rules, it was enough to point out that I paid 35 USD for a package that cost 14, or that the seller had charged me 20 USD more.

Then I sent the same documentation to Paypal, and they accepted the return!

-

And talking about the defective laptop, what did they want? It was clearly NOT the same laptop described in the auction, in fact the seller himself admitted it later with Paypal, but eBay refused to investigate!

-

Frankly, do you know what I think? When I deal with eBay com, I have the impression that it does not deign to treat non-American users in the same way since it has always closed complaints to me without any discussion.

I have this impression because in 10 years with eBay UK claims always had a different ends, an end where the "eBay protection program" hasn't yet forced me to call Paypal to manage a problem as well as no one has yet told me that an European seller has privileges that they cannot receive negative feedback! Yet this happened with american sellers!

That's amazing,  I have NEVER lost an eBay complaint case.  I go out of my way to keep things as simple as possible:
1) Always tick the "Item not as described" box (an eBay support person told me years ago it is the only one they really care about)
2) Explain in 10 words or less why the item is not as described. (If more than 10 words, give or take, it leads to stack overflow in the support staff wetware)

Works every time!

It doesn't matter who broke the item... courier, seller didn't pack it properly, whatever - I don't care - it is always just "Not as described" if it doesn't look like the picture in the ad when I unpack it.


I have even won a case where seller sold a DMM "not working or for parts" with missing components inside.

My case:  "Not as described"  reason:  "There are missing parts, so it cannot be used for parts as claimed by seller"  -   Won!  Seller had to eat his scam.







 
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Online DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: [little rant] eBay seller charges +20 USD because he has to pay rent
« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2021, 12:59:11 am »
I mean fraudulent buyers

doh  :o

Two years ago I sold an apple wireless keyboard, never used, still in its box.
I sold to a dude who immediately opened a claim "item not working".
I apologized and I refunded him immediately and entirely without any eBay intervention.

Reason? The keyboard was sealed in its box so never actually tested and I assumed it was an unfortunate case of an item leaving the factory defective.

Blame me for not having tested it, it bothered me to open a sealed box, but in any case it was covered by insurance.

Maybe it is a partial solution with eBay  :-//
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Online DiTBhoTopic starter

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1) Always tick the "Item not as described" box (an eBay support person told me years ago it is the only one they really care about)
2) Explain in 10 words or less why the item is not as described. (If more than 10 words, give or take, it leads to stack overflow in the support staff wetware)

Works every time!

Good points! I tend to give too precise and often too long explanations.
Thank you for the hints  :D
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Online DiTBhoTopic starter

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What I wrote above about my personal speculations about how eBay manages the 5 stars mechanism plus what they told me on the phone, is also based on tales like this, found by Goognling

Quote
ebay just kicked me off from selling after 10 years because of "low seller standards", my feedback w, i was kicked off ebay today for "low seller standards" after being ok for 10 years, no warning, no nothing,  they just did it, talked to 3 different people, they said there was nothing I could do, decision was made, final, do not understand this at all, any suggestions, contact me at ebay, diana5449_123, thanks
f ebay

"low seller standards" means "stars < 4.1".
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Online DiTBhoTopic starter

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Oh, I just noticed you are at 98%.   Thay may be why.

Quote
Well 98% feedback isn't so hot. How many negative comments did you leave in feedback for buyers? I saw 2. That means those weren't reported. The ones that may have existed but are gone now because they were reported would mean a policy violation on your account for each comment. What made you think that was a good idea?

So, it was not due to the public feedback but again due to hidden information!!! Hidden from the public, so if this person had been a known scammer with several reports but under the trigger to be banned, I as a buyer would not have known about it (only feedback are public, and now I know some feedback are deleted by eBay without any reason to protect the seller) if this person had been a known scammer with several reports but under the trigger to be banned, I as a buyer would not have known about it (because this is hidden information, in public I can only read feedback) and would have bought and then found myself with a problem that eBay would probably refuse to solve if the seller is abroad (my three disputes over 10 years were 100% failure with Americans), and once again I would have to bother Paypal.


Also, the following has been reported several times on the internet, so I think it's correct

Quote
Hello,
 
Just some suggestions... you should always offer returns and be as thorough as possible on defects even to the point of restating that the item is pre-owned. Also, always play by the rules no matter how counterproductive they may be. I don't know how you handle customer complaints or return requests, if any, but do not argue with or question a customer even if you are seething with irritation.
 
On another note... Ebay should be telling you why they shut you down so that you can correct the issue and continue benefiting yourself, your customers and Ebay. I don't see why they'd just shut you down with no explanation.

I read that eBay doesn't tell you anything. No explanation, nothing. And this clearly doesn't help!
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Online DiTBhoTopic starter

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So, to sum up.

I bought two micro-drives and paid 35 USD for a soft-bag that cost 15 USD
I received two damaged units
I immediately contacted the seller, but he offered nothing but bully insults rather than finding a solution
I opened a dispute on eBay com, telling them "damaged item", they closed it (because "no return")
I opened an appeal on eBay com, telling them "item not as describe", they closed it
I opened a dispute on Paypal, telling exactly the same, and they accepted the return
I prepared a parcel, and it's already on its way back to the seller

The seller yesterday wrote this:
Quote
Hey listen you *******************. I know where you live  *******, I still have your address and phone number ****************************************************************. You  ******* opened a phony claim against me that the items were damaged as a result of poor packaging and eBay already ruled in my favor and closed the case. Now you  ******* are going against eBay's ruling and going behind their back playing games with Paypal. I'm warning you  *******, don't mess with me you  *******! you  ******* need to cease and desist! cease and desist!

eBay already ruled in his favor and closed the case. I reported this seller two times for bad and bully communication and eBay did nothing!

And here is why eBay com sucks: if something similar had happened in Europe, the seller would have been thrown out instantly, or at least received a recall! It is not tolerable to insult or threaten!

But this dude is American, so, it has "privileges", and it's the second time I see something similar, so I deduce it must be "OK" for them if an European receive again a bully message from the seller where now I am supposed to be "the crook of the game", while it's clear from his bully message that is trying to persuade me to close the dispute on Paypal to keep the money while the return parcel is still on traveling.

"you need to cease and desist!", what will he do? Will he send a commando of armed mercenaries like Rambo? And will my guts furnish the living room?

Guys, I loved you, so I make will: in case of death, I leave all my electronic cards and my books to EEvblog's members :popcorn:

Quote
going against eBay's ruling and going behind their back playing games with Paypal

That was not even correct. If you open a dispute on eBay you cannot open a dispute on Paypal, but that means that if you do so, eBay will immediately close the dispute on their side. It's not "illegal" or "against" a rule. It's up to you to call Paypal if eBay is unable to solve anything. It's one of your possibility.

-

Seriously speaking, I have enough, and for 50 USD I don't even want to be here getting mad.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 11:22:36 am by DiTBho »
The opposite of courage is not cowardice, it is conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow
 


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