Author Topic: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf  (Read 60705 times)

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Online nctnico

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #200 on: October 05, 2013, 01:00:23 am »
Not really. They did put the fire out without causing a major dissaster and they wouldn't start cutting into a battery pack (most probably the outer shell, not the batteries themselves) if they wheren't absolutely sure it was safe. There is always the option to let something burn while watching from a distance.
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Offline ElectroIrradiator

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #201 on: October 05, 2013, 06:07:33 am »
Some random dude named Elon Musk has this to say about putting out the battery fire:

Quote
When the fire department arrived, they observed standard procedure, which was to gain access to the source of the fire by puncturing holes in the top of the battery's protective metal plate and applying water. For the Model S lithium-ion battery, it was correct to apply water (vs. dry chemical extinguisher), but not to puncture the metal firewall, as the newly created holes allowed the flames to then vent upwards into the front trunk section of the Model S. Nonetheless, a combination of water followed by dry chemical extinguisher quickly brought the fire to an end.
(Emphasis added.)
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #202 on: October 05, 2013, 09:12:24 am »
I just read the tesla blog as well.

Interesting how you can throw water on it. Lithium ion batteries and water generally dont mingle very well... Especially lithium and water.

Anyway. They cut into the battery pack and that should not be done . The pack apparently has vents that dorect flames downward.

But the whole point is moot. The car did hit a large piece of metal that fell of a truck and pierced the bottom of the pack. Read the report at teslas website. No car could survive thise, fire or not. It would do serious damage.
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Offline ElectroIrradiator

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #203 on: October 05, 2013, 09:30:37 am »
Not all Li-ion rechargeable batteries are created equal. The types used in cars and similar large capacity applications, use a different chemistry compared to the batteries in, say, cell phones. The car batteries are safe to douse with water, yet the high energy density may still make an apparent 'flare up' if the battery packs are punctured as part of an attempt at extinguishing a fire.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #204 on: October 05, 2013, 02:08:22 pm »
Having seen and put out burning cars I can safely say that they burn pretty fast once started. Saw a Ford Escort go from first flame to pool of fire in under a minute, and similar with an Alfa. Put out a Izuzu before it got the fuel on fire, and the owner was very grateful of saving his livelihood.

Electric fire you just need to train the fire depts a little on how to handle, ie spray foam, damp down with fine spray for vapour control and contain the area of run off water. Then leave for properly trained people ( like the dealer who should have training on how to handle a battery fire) to safe the vehicle and remove it for evaluation.
 

Offline elgonzo

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #205 on: October 05, 2013, 06:04:12 pm »
@free_electron: Thanks for the clarification!
 

Offline tom66

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #206 on: October 05, 2013, 06:47:42 pm »
I have put out a model RC LiPoly pack with water. I completely submerged it in a bucket. This is the correct procedure to use if available. LiPoly batteries are incredibly violent when punctured. I believe LiIon to be less violent but still troublesome.
 

Offline lagman

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #207 on: October 07, 2013, 12:29:21 am »
I wonder if there is enough lithium on the planet that can be extracted at a reasonable price to power all the cars on the planet... Lithium is quite rare isn't it?
Is lithium safe for the environment? (If disposed in the nature)
What's the cost to recycle the batteries?
 

Offline johansen

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #208 on: October 07, 2013, 12:59:21 am »
I wonder if there is enough lithium on the planet that can be extracted at a reasonable price to power all the cars on the planet... Lithium is quite rare isn't it?
Is lithium safe for the environment? (If disposed in the nature)
What's the cost to recycle the batteries?

recycle the batteries: very high. i've heard one hybrid car manufacturer has a factory set up where robots disassemble the batteries to extract the active materials without mixing them all up again.

i've spoken with a chemist friend of mine about grinding up electronic waste, melting it down in an arc furnace, condensing out the phosphorous and chlorine gas, hydrochloric gas, and Cx CLx Hx, and other nasties, and then electrolytically separating the copper, aluminum, lead, steel, gold, silver, etc out of the bottom
response: "you're crazy"

to do that with batteries would be just as difficult.

lithium is allegidly one of the reasons we went to war in afganistan. those mountains have never been mined....
 

Offline lagman

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #209 on: October 07, 2013, 01:18:47 am »
recycle the batteries: very high. i've heard one hybrid car manufacturer has a factory set up where robots disassemble the batteries to extract the active materials without mixing them all up again.

i've spoken with a chemist friend of mine about grinding up electronic waste, melting it down in an arc furnace, condensing out the phosphorous and chlorine gas, hydrochloric gas, and Cx CLx Hx, and other nasties, and then electrolytically separating the copper, aluminum, lead, steel, gold, silver, etc out of the bottom
response: "you're crazy"

to do that with batteries would be just as difficult.
Isn't the lithium metal easier to get out of the batteries? I heard it's just a sheet that can be peeled off.

lithium is allegidly one of the reasons we went to war in afganistan. those mountains have never been mined....

Then I guess there is nothing of value in Syria!  :-\
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 01:25:58 am by lagman »
 

Offline nack

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #210 on: October 07, 2013, 09:21:02 am »

Imagine, a situation where the Audi A3 would have been given a spanking new awesome gadget or fancy head lights way before the Audi A8 or Audi R8. This would make the A8 and R8 immediately look outdated -- absolutely not good for the brand identity...

This, i fear, is one of the key reasons.

Imagine taking the A3, dropping in an 15000$ electric system. All the A6 and A8 owners would be fuming ! That electric A3 still only costs half the price of theirs , consumes 1/3 the money of theirs and at the traffic light they can't even keep up with that little 'electric toy'. They would fail miserably in the dick measuring contest...

Virtually overnight the sales of the hi ends could collapse.

That's the point currently with the traditional (petrol) car manufacturers, their new electric car with sufficient range will kill their current own internal combustion engined (ICE) car lineup. That's why they don't provide a range comparable to their ICE cars lineup. Testla doesn't have this problem... The ICE cars manufacturers are just stretching the use of ICE in their lineup until they feel they really need to change focus on electric cars completely.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #211 on: October 07, 2013, 05:16:07 pm »
recycle the batteries: very high. i've heard one hybrid car manufacturer has a factory set up where robots disassemble the batteries to extract the active materials without mixing them all up again.
It's quite cheap actually, because the battery packs are made up of individual cells. When the car reaches end of life most of the cells will be fine and can be re-used without any expensive recycling.
Are you kidding? If that where true they'd just disable the bad cells. In reality batteries are constructed so that all cells wear evenly. So all cells are equally bad.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline SgtRock

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #212 on: October 07, 2013, 07:38:32 pm »
Greetings EEVBees:


That's the point currently with the traditional (petrol) car manufacturers, their new electric car with sufficient range will kill their current own internal combustion engined (ICE) car lineup. That's why they don't provide a range comparable to their ICE cars lineup. Testla doesn't have this problem... The ICE cars manufacturers are just stretching the use of ICE in their lineup until they feel they really need to change focus on electric cars completely.

--What company would not want to be first out of the shoot with a product that would replace most ICE vehicles. I think I will file this one with the story about the oil companies killing the guy with the 700 MPG carburetor and destroying his research. Of course that theory would explain the Volt.

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Offline nack

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #213 on: October 07, 2013, 07:51:51 pm »
What if a specific car company went completely electric instead and killing their own ICE lineup, and what if their new electric car lineup wouldn't sell due to whatever reason (customer perception, base price etc)? That would be a massive risk. And one the current ICE car manufacturers probably are not willing to take.

If Tesla really is getting successful, and are able to sell a passenger car at a reasonable price and sufficient range, the ICE car manufacturers will follow suit. I am convinced about that.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 07:53:41 pm by nack »
 

Offline tom66

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #214 on: October 07, 2013, 07:54:58 pm »
Not at current prices. The £7,995 supermini will still sell. But the £45,000 electric will also sell well. These manufacturers need to innovate or die: or Tesla (or another startup) will beat them to it.
 

Offline SgtRock

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #215 on: October 07, 2013, 08:04:08 pm »
Greetings EEVBees:

What if a specific car company went completely electric instead and killing their own ICE lineup, and what if their new electric car lineup wouldn't sell due to whatever reason (customer perception, base price etc)? That would be a massive risk. And one the current ICE car manufacturers probably are not willing to take.

If Tesla really is getting successful, and are able to sell a passenger car at a reasonable price and sufficient range, the ICE car manufacturers will follow suit. I am convinced about that.

--The scenario of the first paragraph seems bizarrely unlikely. I think the companies would do just what they are doing now, I just do not believe they are failing on purpose. The second paragraph seems accurate.

"Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused. But on a higher level."
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Offline NewfieTechie

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #216 on: October 07, 2013, 09:34:13 pm »
The BMW vs Prius was no surprise to me. It's all a giant marketing scheme, they SAY it's so fuel efficient (compared to what? A Hummer?) just to make you buy it. What gets to me is those who buy it and think they are helping the environment. But as was said in the video - they actually aren't.
 

Offline johansen

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #217 on: October 07, 2013, 10:06:38 pm »
recycle the batteries: very high. i've heard one hybrid car manufacturer has a factory set up where robots disassemble the batteries to extract the active materials without mixing them all up again.
It's quite cheap actually, because the battery packs are made up of individual cells. When the car reaches end of life most of the cells will be fine and can be re-used without any expensive recycling.
Are you kidding? If that where true they'd just disable the bad cells. In reality batteries are constructed so that all cells wear evenly. So all cells are equally bad.
is this the same guy that was saying the cells only cost 1$ each?  :D
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #218 on: October 08, 2013, 11:16:54 am »
Before you complain that this means you are not getting 100% from the batteries, I'd point out that you probably don't drive your petrol engine at 100% output all the time either. If you do it won't last very long, which is why manufacturers warranties are based on both age and mileage.

I don't require 100% of the power from my engine, but I might well require close to 100% of the range, if that range were as short and refuelling times were as long as they are with EVs.

Refer back to my earlier example - if I have a vehicle with a range of 85 miles, I can drive it to a customer 40 miles away and get home OK with a few miles to spare. If that vehicle's range drops to 79 miles, it becomes completely useless to me unless I can guarantee to top it up at my destination. I think that gives me every right to complain.

Offline ElectroIrradiator

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #219 on: October 08, 2013, 12:48:17 pm »
Refer back to my earlier example - if I have a vehicle with a range of 85 miles, I can drive it to a customer 40 miles away and get home OK with a few miles to spare. If that vehicle's range drops to 79 miles, it becomes completely useless to me unless I can guarantee to top it up at my destination. I think that gives me every right to complain.

The harsh realities of the world are often even less forgiving than your example. Around these parts people are recommended to always start a winter drive in bad weather with a full tank of gas, extra blankets, a snow shovel, charged cell phone and possibly something warm to drink. My car need not only to take me from A to B on a good day. I also want it to be able to keep me warm and comfy for many hours, if I get stuck in the snow at night in bad weather, or if I get in a long queue on the 'autobahn' due to an accident, more bad weather or whatever.

It is pretty amazing to see just how much range using the AC heater zaps from the Tesla S.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 12:51:11 pm by ElectroIrradiator »
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #220 on: October 08, 2013, 04:18:17 pm »
You clearly seem to think it's OK to sell a machine based on best-case figures, when it's clearly the worst-case figures which are actually the ones that matter.

If you sell me a vehicle on the basis that it can cover 85 miles between charges, and I find myself sitting by the side of the road with a flat battery after 75, then you owe me the cost of recovery plus the cost of my time which you've wasted, as well as a new battery pack. *Any* product should be able to meet its manufacturer's claims, provided those claims are honest and reflect the true capabilities of the product. If it doesn't, the manufacturer is guilty of at best incompetence, and at worst, fraudulent misrepresentation.

I can't say I'm surprised, though. Marketing types do it all the time, selling the alleged benefits of their products with the ubiquitous "up to" qualifier. They hate it when you point out that "up to" means "less than".

A vehicle with a guaranteed minimum range of 85 miles would meet my needs. A vehicle with a range of "up to" 85 miles probably won't. All I'm asking for is honest, accurate information about what the vehicle can actually achieve - specifically, at what remaining capacity will the batteries be deemed EoL and replaced under warranty.

By the way, I completely agree that I would be an idiot to buy an EV, at least until the technology has matured. That's why I drive a car with a conventional diesel engine and a tank range of about 500 miles.

Online nctnico

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #221 on: October 09, 2013, 12:36:44 am »
Actually the mileage of petrol/diesel cars is usually a lot worse than specified. Sometimes up to 40% (in Europe they use a lab test which can easely be influenced). But since the range is far enough and re-fueling is easy its not much of a problem. IIRC someone succesfully sued a car manufacturer because the mileage was much worse than advertised.

With an EV the problem is much worse. There isn't much range to begin with and cold wheater conditions can reduce its charge substantially.

BTW I read an interesting article today. At Mercedes (Daimler) they are quite happy they got of the EV train early after some concepts cars. The only electric cars they make at Daimler are sold under the brand called 'Smart' which are two-seat micro cars. These have a low top speed so they are not very suitable to drive on the highway.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #222 on: October 09, 2013, 05:35:26 pm »
You clearly seem to think it's OK to sell a machine based on best-case figures, when it's clearly the worst-case figures which are actually the ones that matter.

No, I don't, and neither do the car manufacturers. AFAIK all EVs stated range is much less than their actual maximum range. Broder found that out when he was trying to make the Model S fail. There is quite a bit of reserve energy held back which you are not normally supposed to dip in to on a regular basis. It's exactly the same as the range/fuel gauge in an ICE car - mine reaches zero when the car is still capable of doing about 100km if driven carefully.

Quote
A vehicle with a guaranteed minimum range of 85 miles would meet my needs. A vehicle with a range of "up to" 85 miles probably won't.

Show me where in the sales literature it says "up to 85 miles range" and then some evidence that the vehicle does not achieve that in normal operation. I'm pretty sure no major or reputable manufacturer does that.
Most major car manufacturers specify a larger range for their cars than the actual range. See how much the difference can be even with petrol powered cars:
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/real-world-mpg-small-petrol-cars-beat-45mpg/1215224
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline SgtRock

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #223 on: October 10, 2013, 11:22:33 am »
Greetings EEVBees:

In any case, the newer models of Prius can be plugged in, so if you have solar panels on your home or place or work can run it for free up to the range of the batteries (IIRC about 20km). I could get to work and back without using any petrol if I had one. Zero emissions, infinite miles per gallon.

--Dave has also mentioned using his PV Array to charge up a putative EV at no, or reduced cost. This reasoning may in some cases be fallacious, I.E. logically unsound. If you have a PV Array which has unused excess capacity, then of course you would ride free, except for the cost to amortize the PV installation and the EV premium. If on the other hand, you are paying to use line power during the time you are using PV to charge the batteries, then accordingly not so much. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that most people will need to charge up over night when PV is not in operation, and even charging up during daytime is made less economical by the fact that daytime is the peak power usage time for most house holds.
--Granted if you have a large enough PV installation, and can charge up during daylight hours, then you may indeed see some savings, provided the cost of amortizing the EV premium is included, as well as the savings of not having to drive to the gas pump. People with lifestyles similar to Dave's would make ideal candidates for this scenario.
--I look forward to more videos about the Jones' PV project, as well as the EV, when and if. Electronics buffs, who can afford the premium, are going to be the pioneers in this area, and not just for economic reasons but also because they are queer for gear. More power to 'em.

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« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 02:13:13 pm by SgtRock »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: [Rant] Electric cars, in particular Nissan Leaf
« Reply #224 on: October 10, 2013, 02:11:19 pm »
Most major car manufacturers specify a larger range for their cars than the actual range. See how much the difference can be even with petrol powered cars:
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/real-world-mpg-small-petrol-cars-beat-45mpg/1215224

That's MPG figures, not range. Two completely different things, since MPG clearly has no relation to the size of the fuel tank or battery capacity.  :palm:
MPG / MPkWh have everything to do with range. Manufacturers of petrol powered cars just don't have to get their customers over range anxiety so range is a non issue. But still the mileage boils down to range from a certain amount of fuel and usually the numbers provided by the manufacturers are way optimistic. EVs are no different. For example Tesla says their 85kWh battery will take you 300 miles while tests performed by the EPA show you can only get 224 miles from the 85kWh battery. Now try telling me again Tesla provides pessimistic numbers on their range.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 02:12:53 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


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