Author Topic: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime  (Read 2396 times)

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Offline blueskull

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[Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« on: July 13, 2019, 10:29:29 pm »
So, my work authorization application was rejected by Uncle Sam.

My current contract ends in October, and I promised my professor to fulfill my one year contract, so I renewed my work authorization which ended on Jul 10th.

Well, today I received the rejection letter from US immigration office, for a stupid reason -- missing blank pages.

The form has 7 pages, in between there are sections, and not all sections are required for a particular application.

I left out two pages which I didn't need and shouldn't fill, thinking I can save some trees.

Nope, Uncle Sam doesn't like that. Not only they returned my documents, they also added four pages of paper and a large plastic zipper bag, just to let me know I missed two blank pages.

As a comparison, my CPA in Hong Kong actively requests me to think twice before printing, and only send them back scanned pages where I need to sign.

Since when I'm not allowed to save papers? Is this level of formalism really necessary?
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2019, 10:39:13 pm »
  Illegal immigration and the "social" hiring policies of Uncle Sam prevents them from hiring people that can read English.  Welcome to the same world that US citizens and residents have been dealing with non-stop since the late 1960s.

   Circle the relevant parts with a bright red Highlighter pen and send the paper work back to them again.  And again, if necessary. Sooner of later it will cross the desk of someone that can read.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2019, 10:39:39 pm »
It surprises me that you still question bureaucratic processes. Maybe they have a valid reason to expect all pages and it broke their system, maybe it's just useless pencil pushing. Maybe it's even designed to filter out those who are unable to duly oblige. Whatever the case, questioning it is energy wasted.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2019, 10:40:17 pm »
  Illegal immigration and the "social" hiring policies of Uncle Sam prevents them from hiring people that can read English.  Welcome to the same world that US citizens and residents have been dealing with non-stop since the late 1960s.

   Circle the relevant parts with a bright red Highlighter pen and send the paper work back to them again.  And again, if necessary. Sooner of later it will cross the desk of someone that can read.
You must be a masochist. The bureaucratic machine won't care.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2019, 11:01:07 pm »
Do not mess up with Government forms. Do not make assumptions.
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Online m98

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2019, 11:24:35 pm »
I guess they just OCR the forms as a first step before they get sent digitally to the person who processes it? The people who process them therefore won't have the slightest clue about the particular forms.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2019, 12:23:23 am »
Did the instructions state to include all pages? I fail to see how, if one hasn't followed the instructions, it's someone else's fault.

I do the same thing at work, if someone hasn't followed instructions, I'll reject what they send me. I don't have the time to sit there correcting other people's mistakes or second-guessing what they intend.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2019, 12:33:43 am »
Did the instructions state to include all pages? I fail to see how, if one hasn't followed the instructions, it's someone else's fault.

I do the same thing at work, if someone hasn't followed instructions, I'll reject what they send me. I don't have the time to sit there correcting other people's mistakes or second-guessing what they intend.
Even if you can correct a minor omission without issue?
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2019, 01:16:55 am »
  Illegal immigration and the "social" hiring policies of Uncle Sam prevents them from hiring people that can read English.  Welcome to the same world that US citizens and residents have been dealing with non-stop since the late 1960s.

   Circle the relevant parts with a bright red Highlighter pen and send the paper work back to them again.  And again, if necessary. Sooner of later it will cross the desk of someone that can read.
You must be a masochist. The bureaucratic machine won't care.

   Not a masochist I've just learned to dammed persistent! Dealing with insurance companies is the same way.  I think they're hoping that you'll give up and just eat the cost of a claim but if you're persistent then that I think they decide to pay you instead of spending the resources in futile attempts to avoid the claim.  My mother ran a doctor's office for many years and insurance claims were always the biggest head aches.  They literally had more employees to deal with insurance companies than the entire medical staff.

   The OP's case shows why most people that need to deal with the US immigration service use a lawyer instead of fighting the battle themselves.  Individuals will quickly get frustrated and give up but a lawyer will fight the case until HELL freezes over! At least, as long as someone is paying him.
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2019, 01:22:38 am »
Did the instructions state to include all pages? I fail to see how, if one hasn't followed the instructions, it's someone else's fault.

I do the same thing at work, if someone hasn't followed instructions, I'll reject what they send me. I don't have the time to sit there correcting other people's mistakes or second-guessing what they intend.
Even if you can correct a minor omission without issue?

In this particular case that could be a crime. It's an official government document that they'd have to tamper with to get it in its acceptable format. It really is a case of just do what they say, even if it seems stupid, because that's the rule. You're free to question it but that doesn't mean you don't have to follow it in the mean time.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2019, 01:23:27 am »
   Not a masochist I've just learned to dammed persistent! Dealing with insurance companies is the same way.  I think they're hoping that you'll give up and just eat the cost of a claim but if you're persistent then that I think they decide to pay you instead of spending the resources in futile attempts to avoid the claim.  My mother ran a doctor's office for many years and insurance claims were always the biggest head aches.  They literally had more employees to deal with insurance companies than the entire medical staff.

   The OP's case shows why most people that need to deal with the US immigration service use a lawyer instead of fighting the battle themselves.  Individuals will quickly get frustrated and give up but a lawyer will fight the case until HELL freezes over! At least, as long as someone is paying him.
Your posts suggests governments actually being aware you file the same claim over and over. That's already a gamble but suppose it is, experience tells us they don't mind and have the resources to deny your request time and time again. They may do it in confusingly different manners every time, but it's definitely an entity capable of mindless repetition until the end of time and at the cost of a huge amount of resources. It'll easily grind you into a pulp and will never know the difference. Insurance companies are profit driven, while governments can simply match what comes in to what's spent which means they virtually have endless resources.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 01:30:10 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2019, 01:27:08 am »
In this particular case that could be a crime. It's an official government document that they'd have to tamper with to get it in its acceptable format. It really is a case of just do what they say, even if it seems stupid, because that's the rule. You're free to question it but that doesn't mean you don't have to follow it in the mean time.
I don't think Halcyon is currently a government employee. I'm also not suggesting government employees tamper with documents, neither am I suggesting you don't follow government procedures. You won't win that no matter how right you are. I think I made that clear in my previous posts. I was asking whether Halcyon denies requests on the basis of them being incomplete for the sake of it, or whether it is because it's become impossible to fulfil the request without making guesses. Those are two rather distinct approaches.
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2019, 01:39:09 am »
In this particular case that could be a crime. It's an official government document that they'd have to tamper with to get it in its acceptable format. It really is a case of just do what they say, even if it seems stupid, because that's the rule. You're free to question it but that doesn't mean you don't have to follow it in the mean time.
I don't think Halcyon is currently a government employee. I'm also not suggesting government employees tamper with documents, neither am I suggesting you don't follow government procedures. You won't win that no matter how right you are. I think I made that clear in my previous posts. I was asking whether Halcyon denies requests on the basis of them being incomplete for the sake of it, or whether it is because it's become impossible to fulfil the request without making guesses. Those are two rather distinct approaches.

Sorry, I was trying to relate it back to the OP. I am pretty certain that's what Halcyon was doing? If he gets paperwork that's not correct, no matter the reason, it goes back. Same with any government employee except it could end up being an actual crime if they did.

I think for paperwork, if it's what you need to deal with, then it's probably much easier to reject rather than try and figure any of it out even as little as adding missing pages. You MIGHT have those pages lying around, but you may not and it becomes an issue where you need to find the relevant pages, print them out, and then add them in. That's if it is just simple missing pages. Anything beyond that could cause issues down the line anyway.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2019, 02:10:54 am »
I think you'll find that bureaucracy is in general extremely robot-like and has no brain. There was the equivalent of an "if(numpages != expectedpages)" somewhere in the system, probably very early, and your submission simply failed that check. It might not have even reached anyone who would actually care about reading the contents.
 
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Offline blueskull

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2019, 02:28:53 am »
I guess I should have assumed governments are not that smart after all. Anyway, I shipped out my packet today with all pages printed.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2019, 03:22:47 am »
I guess you've never filled out one of those rebate forms.  You have to follow the instructions exactly, as the rebate processors' job is to find any reason to reject it.  That's how they make money.  I wouldn't be surprised if the immigration clerk is getting paid by the number of rejections they hand out... especially in the Trump era.



 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2019, 03:45:22 am »
I guess I should have assumed governments are not that smart after all. Anyway, I shipped out my packet today with all pages printed.

Yea, it's like a beginners C program. There are no provisions for input outside of the expected so it just crashes.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2019, 03:57:24 am »
I guess you've never filled out one of those rebate forms.

IRS has been pretty nice to me for the past years. Well, 1040 doesn't have pages to be left out either.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2019, 06:10:23 am »
While I don't know what information the missing pages would have contained - in the circumstance where there would be a need to provide some - the fact that these pages were not supplied may not be sufficient.  That is to say that "two pages not supplied" does not necessarily equate to "two pages with no information entered on them".

Then there is the case of the document being incomplete, because all pages were not provided.  This could be a blanket policy for any and all documents as a simple initial check before any real effort is made in processing the content.  IF someone were to start and find there was missing information, then that would be wasted time since the forms would need to be returned for completion and when resubmitted, they will likely be dealt with by somebody else.  A preliminary check with simple rules could be performed by a junior, saving time and money.

One more possibility is that the forms may have changed over time and those pages were necessary in the past, but are not so essential now - and the procedures written for handling the updated forms have not been changed.  (This is something I have seen - with some facepalm results).

...and it could simply be that, unless all pages are provided, it does not constitute a legal document.



Bottom line - never presume that bureaucracy has any flexibility in their processes.
 
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Online all_repair

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2019, 06:20:23 am »
 Don't fight this thing.  Just follow instructions.  The blank pages could be used by the officer to write their comments, or chop the internal departments that need to seek approval.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2019, 06:20:46 am »
While I don't know what information the missing pages would have contained - in the circumstance where there would be a need to provide some - the fact that these pages were not supplied may not be sufficient.  That is to say that "two pages not supplied" does not necessarily equate to "two pages with no information entered on them".

The two pages are for signatures of preparers and translators. If I checked boxes in previous pages indicating my form was prepared under help from translators or barred preparers, then I need to get them to sign their pages.

In this case, I clearly indicated on pages before that I prepared this form on my own.
 

Online Psi

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2019, 06:56:30 am »
When filling out a form it's important to understand the difference between
- They are looking for a reason to accept your application
- They are looking for a reason to reject your application.

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Offline windsmurf

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2019, 07:38:10 am »
I guess you've never filled out one of those rebate forms.

IRS has been pretty nice to me for the past years. Well, 1040 doesn't have pages to be left out either.

Yea everyone making any money in the U.S. have to fill out a 1040 so they're extremely lenient with all kinds of mistakes and omissions, other than signature and date.

 

Offline soldar

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2019, 07:42:02 am »
You send in a form which is missing pages thinking the person reviewing it will know those pages are not needed. That is not the way it works.

The documents first pass a first control done by someone who is only checking that all things required are there. They just look to confirm all papers, checks, etc are apparently complete on their face. That is just a first cull to save time and effort to the people who actually evaluate the documents. Anything missing and it is sent back. Only after it has passed this hurdle will it go on to the next step.

The people who do this are very low paid workers. Many are not citizens and their command of English is minimal. You would be surprised to learn who is checking files for citizenship, immigration, etc.  They are given basic instructions on how to check and how to organize the file. First the check, then form A, the Form B, then document D, etc. Anything missing and the whole thing is rejected.

When the next person receives the file they have the complete file, not missing any necessary documents.

The process is designed to be efficient wen processing hundreds of thousands of applications, not with just yours. This is like asking a vendor why they will not do something special for you and the reason is they have a process designed for thousands of transactions. You can say it costs them nothing to process your order differently but they prefer that you just conform with their set process.

So, while I understand the mistake of not sending in two unfilled form pages, I also understand why the process rejected them.
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2019, 08:46:35 am »
Did the instructions state to include all pages? I fail to see how, if one hasn't followed the instructions, it's someone else's fault.

I do the same thing at work, if someone hasn't followed instructions, I'll reject what they send me. I don't have the time to sit there correcting other people's mistakes or second-guessing what they intend.
Even if you can correct a minor omission without issue?

As I said, I have enough on my plate and not enough hours in the day. If they can't follow a simple instruction, perhaps they need more practice until they get it right. It's also not my signature on the page, so modifying a classified document where I'm not the author, opens up all kinds of "but I didn't write that" sorts of issues.
 


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