Author Topic: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime  (Read 2388 times)

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Offline blueskull

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[Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« on: July 13, 2019, 10:29:29 pm »
So, my work authorization application was rejected by Uncle Sam.

My current contract ends in October, and I promised my professor to fulfill my one year contract, so I renewed my work authorization which ended on Jul 10th.

Well, today I received the rejection letter from US immigration office, for a stupid reason -- missing blank pages.

The form has 7 pages, in between there are sections, and not all sections are required for a particular application.

I left out two pages which I didn't need and shouldn't fill, thinking I can save some trees.

Nope, Uncle Sam doesn't like that. Not only they returned my documents, they also added four pages of paper and a large plastic zipper bag, just to let me know I missed two blank pages.

As a comparison, my CPA in Hong Kong actively requests me to think twice before printing, and only send them back scanned pages where I need to sign.

Since when I'm not allowed to save papers? Is this level of formalism really necessary?
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2019, 10:39:13 pm »
  Illegal immigration and the "social" hiring policies of Uncle Sam prevents them from hiring people that can read English.  Welcome to the same world that US citizens and residents have been dealing with non-stop since the late 1960s.

   Circle the relevant parts with a bright red Highlighter pen and send the paper work back to them again.  And again, if necessary. Sooner of later it will cross the desk of someone that can read.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2019, 10:39:39 pm »
It surprises me that you still question bureaucratic processes. Maybe they have a valid reason to expect all pages and it broke their system, maybe it's just useless pencil pushing. Maybe it's even designed to filter out those who are unable to duly oblige. Whatever the case, questioning it is energy wasted.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2019, 10:40:17 pm »
  Illegal immigration and the "social" hiring policies of Uncle Sam prevents them from hiring people that can read English.  Welcome to the same world that US citizens and residents have been dealing with non-stop since the late 1960s.

   Circle the relevant parts with a bright red Highlighter pen and send the paper work back to them again.  And again, if necessary. Sooner of later it will cross the desk of someone that can read.
You must be a masochist. The bureaucratic machine won't care.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2019, 11:01:07 pm »
Do not mess up with Government forms. Do not make assumptions.
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Offline m98

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2019, 11:24:35 pm »
I guess they just OCR the forms as a first step before they get sent digitally to the person who processes it? The people who process them therefore won't have the slightest clue about the particular forms.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2019, 12:23:23 am »
Did the instructions state to include all pages? I fail to see how, if one hasn't followed the instructions, it's someone else's fault.

I do the same thing at work, if someone hasn't followed instructions, I'll reject what they send me. I don't have the time to sit there correcting other people's mistakes or second-guessing what they intend.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2019, 12:33:43 am »
Did the instructions state to include all pages? I fail to see how, if one hasn't followed the instructions, it's someone else's fault.

I do the same thing at work, if someone hasn't followed instructions, I'll reject what they send me. I don't have the time to sit there correcting other people's mistakes or second-guessing what they intend.
Even if you can correct a minor omission without issue?
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2019, 01:16:55 am »
  Illegal immigration and the "social" hiring policies of Uncle Sam prevents them from hiring people that can read English.  Welcome to the same world that US citizens and residents have been dealing with non-stop since the late 1960s.

   Circle the relevant parts with a bright red Highlighter pen and send the paper work back to them again.  And again, if necessary. Sooner of later it will cross the desk of someone that can read.
You must be a masochist. The bureaucratic machine won't care.

   Not a masochist I've just learned to dammed persistent! Dealing with insurance companies is the same way.  I think they're hoping that you'll give up and just eat the cost of a claim but if you're persistent then that I think they decide to pay you instead of spending the resources in futile attempts to avoid the claim.  My mother ran a doctor's office for many years and insurance claims were always the biggest head aches.  They literally had more employees to deal with insurance companies than the entire medical staff.

   The OP's case shows why most people that need to deal with the US immigration service use a lawyer instead of fighting the battle themselves.  Individuals will quickly get frustrated and give up but a lawyer will fight the case until HELL freezes over! At least, as long as someone is paying him.
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2019, 01:22:38 am »
Did the instructions state to include all pages? I fail to see how, if one hasn't followed the instructions, it's someone else's fault.

I do the same thing at work, if someone hasn't followed instructions, I'll reject what they send me. I don't have the time to sit there correcting other people's mistakes or second-guessing what they intend.
Even if you can correct a minor omission without issue?

In this particular case that could be a crime. It's an official government document that they'd have to tamper with to get it in its acceptable format. It really is a case of just do what they say, even if it seems stupid, because that's the rule. You're free to question it but that doesn't mean you don't have to follow it in the mean time.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2019, 01:23:27 am »
   Not a masochist I've just learned to dammed persistent! Dealing with insurance companies is the same way.  I think they're hoping that you'll give up and just eat the cost of a claim but if you're persistent then that I think they decide to pay you instead of spending the resources in futile attempts to avoid the claim.  My mother ran a doctor's office for many years and insurance claims were always the biggest head aches.  They literally had more employees to deal with insurance companies than the entire medical staff.

   The OP's case shows why most people that need to deal with the US immigration service use a lawyer instead of fighting the battle themselves.  Individuals will quickly get frustrated and give up but a lawyer will fight the case until HELL freezes over! At least, as long as someone is paying him.
Your posts suggests governments actually being aware you file the same claim over and over. That's already a gamble but suppose it is, experience tells us they don't mind and have the resources to deny your request time and time again. They may do it in confusingly different manners every time, but it's definitely an entity capable of mindless repetition until the end of time and at the cost of a huge amount of resources. It'll easily grind you into a pulp and will never know the difference. Insurance companies are profit driven, while governments can simply match what comes in to what's spent which means they virtually have endless resources.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 01:30:10 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2019, 01:27:08 am »
In this particular case that could be a crime. It's an official government document that they'd have to tamper with to get it in its acceptable format. It really is a case of just do what they say, even if it seems stupid, because that's the rule. You're free to question it but that doesn't mean you don't have to follow it in the mean time.
I don't think Halcyon is currently a government employee. I'm also not suggesting government employees tamper with documents, neither am I suggesting you don't follow government procedures. You won't win that no matter how right you are. I think I made that clear in my previous posts. I was asking whether Halcyon denies requests on the basis of them being incomplete for the sake of it, or whether it is because it's become impossible to fulfil the request without making guesses. Those are two rather distinct approaches.
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2019, 01:39:09 am »
In this particular case that could be a crime. It's an official government document that they'd have to tamper with to get it in its acceptable format. It really is a case of just do what they say, even if it seems stupid, because that's the rule. You're free to question it but that doesn't mean you don't have to follow it in the mean time.
I don't think Halcyon is currently a government employee. I'm also not suggesting government employees tamper with documents, neither am I suggesting you don't follow government procedures. You won't win that no matter how right you are. I think I made that clear in my previous posts. I was asking whether Halcyon denies requests on the basis of them being incomplete for the sake of it, or whether it is because it's become impossible to fulfil the request without making guesses. Those are two rather distinct approaches.

Sorry, I was trying to relate it back to the OP. I am pretty certain that's what Halcyon was doing? If he gets paperwork that's not correct, no matter the reason, it goes back. Same with any government employee except it could end up being an actual crime if they did.

I think for paperwork, if it's what you need to deal with, then it's probably much easier to reject rather than try and figure any of it out even as little as adding missing pages. You MIGHT have those pages lying around, but you may not and it becomes an issue where you need to find the relevant pages, print them out, and then add them in. That's if it is just simple missing pages. Anything beyond that could cause issues down the line anyway.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2019, 02:10:54 am »
I think you'll find that bureaucracy is in general extremely robot-like and has no brain. There was the equivalent of an "if(numpages != expectedpages)" somewhere in the system, probably very early, and your submission simply failed that check. It might not have even reached anyone who would actually care about reading the contents.
 
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Offline blueskull

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2019, 02:28:53 am »
I guess I should have assumed governments are not that smart after all. Anyway, I shipped out my packet today with all pages printed.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2019, 03:22:47 am »
I guess you've never filled out one of those rebate forms.  You have to follow the instructions exactly, as the rebate processors' job is to find any reason to reject it.  That's how they make money.  I wouldn't be surprised if the immigration clerk is getting paid by the number of rejections they hand out... especially in the Trump era.



 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2019, 03:45:22 am »
I guess I should have assumed governments are not that smart after all. Anyway, I shipped out my packet today with all pages printed.

Yea, it's like a beginners C program. There are no provisions for input outside of the expected so it just crashes.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2019, 03:57:24 am »
I guess you've never filled out one of those rebate forms.

IRS has been pretty nice to me for the past years. Well, 1040 doesn't have pages to be left out either.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2019, 06:10:23 am »
While I don't know what information the missing pages would have contained - in the circumstance where there would be a need to provide some - the fact that these pages were not supplied may not be sufficient.  That is to say that "two pages not supplied" does not necessarily equate to "two pages with no information entered on them".

Then there is the case of the document being incomplete, because all pages were not provided.  This could be a blanket policy for any and all documents as a simple initial check before any real effort is made in processing the content.  IF someone were to start and find there was missing information, then that would be wasted time since the forms would need to be returned for completion and when resubmitted, they will likely be dealt with by somebody else.  A preliminary check with simple rules could be performed by a junior, saving time and money.

One more possibility is that the forms may have changed over time and those pages were necessary in the past, but are not so essential now - and the procedures written for handling the updated forms have not been changed.  (This is something I have seen - with some facepalm results).

...and it could simply be that, unless all pages are provided, it does not constitute a legal document.



Bottom line - never presume that bureaucracy has any flexibility in their processes.
 
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Offline all_repair

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2019, 06:20:23 am »
 Don't fight this thing.  Just follow instructions.  The blank pages could be used by the officer to write their comments, or chop the internal departments that need to seek approval.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2019, 06:20:46 am »
While I don't know what information the missing pages would have contained - in the circumstance where there would be a need to provide some - the fact that these pages were not supplied may not be sufficient.  That is to say that "two pages not supplied" does not necessarily equate to "two pages with no information entered on them".

The two pages are for signatures of preparers and translators. If I checked boxes in previous pages indicating my form was prepared under help from translators or barred preparers, then I need to get them to sign their pages.

In this case, I clearly indicated on pages before that I prepared this form on my own.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2019, 06:56:30 am »
When filling out a form it's important to understand the difference between
- They are looking for a reason to accept your application
- They are looking for a reason to reject your application.

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Offline windsmurf

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2019, 07:38:10 am »
I guess you've never filled out one of those rebate forms.

IRS has been pretty nice to me for the past years. Well, 1040 doesn't have pages to be left out either.

Yea everyone making any money in the U.S. have to fill out a 1040 so they're extremely lenient with all kinds of mistakes and omissions, other than signature and date.

 

Offline soldar

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2019, 07:42:02 am »
You send in a form which is missing pages thinking the person reviewing it will know those pages are not needed. That is not the way it works.

The documents first pass a first control done by someone who is only checking that all things required are there. They just look to confirm all papers, checks, etc are apparently complete on their face. That is just a first cull to save time and effort to the people who actually evaluate the documents. Anything missing and it is sent back. Only after it has passed this hurdle will it go on to the next step.

The people who do this are very low paid workers. Many are not citizens and their command of English is minimal. You would be surprised to learn who is checking files for citizenship, immigration, etc.  They are given basic instructions on how to check and how to organize the file. First the check, then form A, the Form B, then document D, etc. Anything missing and the whole thing is rejected.

When the next person receives the file they have the complete file, not missing any necessary documents.

The process is designed to be efficient wen processing hundreds of thousands of applications, not with just yours. This is like asking a vendor why they will not do something special for you and the reason is they have a process designed for thousands of transactions. You can say it costs them nothing to process your order differently but they prefer that you just conform with their set process.

So, while I understand the mistake of not sending in two unfilled form pages, I also understand why the process rejected them.
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2019, 08:46:35 am »
Did the instructions state to include all pages? I fail to see how, if one hasn't followed the instructions, it's someone else's fault.

I do the same thing at work, if someone hasn't followed instructions, I'll reject what they send me. I don't have the time to sit there correcting other people's mistakes or second-guessing what they intend.
Even if you can correct a minor omission without issue?

As I said, I have enough on my plate and not enough hours in the day. If they can't follow a simple instruction, perhaps they need more practice until they get it right. It's also not my signature on the page, so modifying a classified document where I'm not the author, opens up all kinds of "but I didn't write that" sorts of issues.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2019, 09:24:10 am »
Did the instructions state to include all pages? I fail to see how, if one hasn't followed the instructions, it's someone else's fault.

I do the same thing at work, if someone hasn't followed instructions, I'll reject what they send me. I don't have the time to sit there correcting other people's mistakes or second-guessing what they intend.
Even if you can correct a minor omission without issue?

Maybe they mass scan these things and having missing pages screws up the entire automated process?
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2019, 10:43:14 am »
Did the instructions state to include all pages? I fail to see how, if one hasn't followed the instructions, it's someone else's fault.

I do the same thing at work, if someone hasn't followed instructions, I'll reject what they send me. I don't have the time to sit there correcting other people's mistakes or second-guessing what they intend.
Even if you can correct a minor omission without issue?

Maybe they mass scan these things and having missing pages screws up the entire automated process?

This and an omission (depending on context) can be just as important as a deceleration, particularly if the applicant isn't being truthful (not suggesting that this was the case here). Legal arguments can be extremely nit-picky over the smallest detail. I recall one case where legislation (in this case, the Law Enforcement (Powers and Responsibilities) Act) could be interpreted two different ways.

The law reads: "A police officer may, without a warrant, stop, search and detain a person, and anything in the possession of or under the control of the person, if the police officer suspects on reasonable grounds that any of the following circumstances exists..."

I can't remember the exact context but basically did the bold part mean stop AND search AND detain or did it mean stop AND/OR, search AND/OR detain.

Silly things like that is why I hate going to court.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2019, 11:20:08 am »
The OP's case shows why most people that need to deal with the US immigration service use a lawyer instead of fighting the battle themselves.  Individuals will quickly get frustrated and give up but a lawyer will fight the case until HELL freezes over! At least, as long as someone is paying him.
Immigration lawyers and paralegals have experience dealing with the system and would not make the mistake in the first place.
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Offline soldar

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2019, 11:44:23 am »
The law reads: "A police officer may, without a warrant, stop, search and detain a person, and anything in the possession of or under the control of the person, if the police officer suspects on reasonable grounds that any of the following circumstances exists..."

I can't remember the exact context but basically did the bold part mean stop AND search AND detain or did it mean stop AND/OR, search AND/OR detain.
There is no doubt as to how a law will be interpreted because there is what they call statutory interpretation.
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2019, 12:20:40 pm »
Did the instructions state to include all pages? I fail to see how, if one hasn't followed the instructions, it's someone else's fault.

I do the same thing at work, if someone hasn't followed instructions, I'll reject what they send me. I don't have the time to sit there correcting other people's mistakes or second-guessing what they intend.

I would assume there is a process they are to follow.  I can't imagine not following it because I thought I would save two sheet of paper to save the world, then post about it.
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Offline soldar

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2019, 12:43:22 pm »
I have already explained how these things are processed and why this happened.

I can understand how the OP thought it would not make a difference. He was mistaken. I can see how he is frustrated, I would be too even if it was my mistake.

I do not see why we have to make judgments about who is wrong. Mistakes happen and I don't see how or why we need to pile on the OP for not "following instructions". 
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Offline Stray Electron

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2019, 12:49:03 pm »
I guess you've never filled out one of those rebate forms.

IRS has been pretty nice to me for the past years. Well, 1040 doesn't have pages to be left out either.

Yea everyone making any money in the U.S. have to fill out a 1040 so they're extremely lenient with all kinds of mistakes and omissions, other than signature and date.

   I purposely made a simple math error on my IRS 1040 form one year just to see if the IRS would catch it. They did and they corrected it and revised the amount that I was owed and sent me the correct refund.  They included a short note about the correction with the refund and that was it, I never heard any more about it.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 12:56:52 pm by Stray Electron »
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2019, 12:54:43 pm »
The OP's case shows why most people that need to deal with the US immigration service use a lawyer instead of fighting the battle themselves.  Individuals will quickly get frustrated and give up but a lawyer will fight the case until HELL freezes over! At least, as long as someone is paying him.
Immigration lawyers and paralegals have experience dealing with the system and would not make the mistake in the first place.

   Well they make mistakes too but they learn not to repeat that mistake on the next person's forms.  Lawyers and paralegals specialize in things like this and do it over and over and over again and they get very good at it.  You and I on the other hand, have to learn through trial and error and it's a very steep learning curve for something that we will probably only do once.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2019, 12:57:30 pm »
Just a couple remarks off the top of my head:

- It may seem silly at first sight, but it actually makes sense. Missing pages/documents/items in any formal setting (being private of public) usually make the whole thing incomplete by nature. It's impossible to formally know that those were omitted for a reason or just because they were forgotten, and it's impossible to know the reason (having to guess is usually not acceptable even if the guess would be obvious). What would have to be done at the very least would be to document which pages/paragraphs were omitted, in an additional document, and the reason why (with date and signature...) Now of course even with that, some heavy administrations may reject the forms because they are non-conforming. But barely omitting stuff without specifying anything about it is asking for trouble.

- If you think the US administration is a dinosaur, you should come to Europe!  :-DD

 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2019, 01:10:07 pm »


The two pages are for signatures of preparers and translators. If I checked boxes in previous pages indicating my form was prepared under help from translators or barred preparers, then I need to get them to sign their pages.

In this case, I clearly indicated on pages before that I prepared this form on my own.

  I have sort of run into a problem like this when preparing building (construction) applications.  Many of the forms that have to be included with those are usually prepared by Profession Engineers, Architects, etc and when they are then you must include copies of their licenses, insurance papers, etc.  We did all of that ourselves and then turned in the whole package to the local county government. The first thing that they looked for were the licenses, etc and they were surprised that they weren't there.  Lucky we had taken the package down to their office and turned it in in person so we explained why the licenses weren't there.  They looked over the rest of the package and signed off on it right on the spot and handed it back to us. They told us that it was the most complete and error free application that they had ever seen.  Normal time to get a building permit in this area is about three days but we had that one in less than 10 minutes. Being there in person instead of having a contractor take it in, and being able to answer their questions on the spot made a huge difference.  FWIW
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2019, 04:06:18 pm »
I do not see why we have to make judgments about who is wrong. Mistakes happen and I don't see how or why we need to pile on the OP for not "following instructions".

Seems like if you were going out of your country to be educated, you would have more sense.    Their frustration was brought on my themselves.  Rather than manning up, learning from their mistake and moving on, they want to come on a public forum, sucking their thumb.   They are begging for a response, but I doubt mine is providing them with the sympathy they are looking for. 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2019, 04:13:37 pm »
Anyway, I shipped out my packet today with all pages printed.

Given that your current authorization has already expired a few days ago -- do you expect problems on that front, or is there a grace period?
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2019, 05:43:05 pm »
Maybe they have a valid reason to expect all pages and it broke their system, maybe it's just useless pencil pushing.

They require the blank pages because being blank is part of the submission to demonstrate that no pages are missing.  It is the same reason that a research notebook should have permanently bound sequentially numbered pages.

Like a ballot for voting however, nothing blank should be submitted because someone else could add to it.  So cross out or mark up the blank pages.
 

Offline magic

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2019, 06:24:43 pm »
They require the blank pages because being blank is part of the submission to demonstrate that no pages are missing.  It is the same reason that a research notebook should have permanently bound sequentially numbered pages.
That's it, they don't want people claiming that something had been lost, or tampered with, or was filled-in differently than it really was, or whatever. There is probably a blanket policy that everything should be complete.

Now, maybe you spent 30 seconds and came up with a solid proof that what you sent is sufficient to deduce the missing pages without any doubt, but the clerk who reads your application and then another 100 applications and then wants to go home and watch TV isn't going to bother figuring it out and taking responsibility for violation of procedure.

There is the risk that you are trying some scam and will later say that those pages had been lost and contained something important and you just forgot to check the box indicating that they contain relevant information. Nobody is going to sit and wonder about possibilities of that and whether you would win in court or not when there is work to be done.

Also, people who work that sort of jobs probably aren't as intelligent as you and either have learned not to break rules lest stupid mistakes happen or their supervisors have learned to punish every disobedience before it leads to disaster.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2019, 06:40:55 pm »
Given that your current authorization has already expired a few days ago -- do you expect problems on that front, or is there a grace period?

There is an auto extension for my particular type of application, of 180 days. As long as my application package is sent out, I have no worries.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2019, 06:49:55 pm »
I forgot to mention the best part.

I also attached a form that gives them consent to contact me in Emails, and of course, my Email address and phone number.

They didn't bother to send me anything before shipping the entire application package back to me :palm:.

To their credit, the regulation does say that they are supposed to send me acceptance notification to my Email address if I filed the consent form, not rejection notice.

But I would be very appreciating if they can deviate a little bit from SOP and actually give me a heads up so I can send them additional pages ASAP.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2019, 07:16:21 pm »
I guess you've never filled out one of those rebate forms.

IRS has been pretty nice to me for the past years. Well, 1040 doesn't have pages to be left out either.

Yea everyone making any money in the U.S. have to fill out a 1040 so they're extremely lenient with all kinds of mistakes and omissions, other than signature and date.

   I purposely made a simple math error on my IRS 1040 form one year just to see if the IRS would catch it. They did and they corrected it and revised the amount that I was owed and sent me the correct refund.  They included a short note about the correction with the refund and that was it, I never heard any more about it.

Yea, but they did not reject it and send it back to you to redo the whole thing.

 

Offline soldar

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2019, 07:47:29 pm »
I forgot to mention the best part.

I also attached a form that gives them consent to contact me in Emails, and of course, my Email address and phone number.

They didn't bother to send me anything before shipping the entire application package back to me :palm:.

To their credit, the regulation does say that they are supposed to send me acceptance notification to my Email address if I filed the consent form, not rejection notice.

But I would be very appreciating if they can deviate a little bit from SOP and actually give me a heads up so I can send them additional pages ASAP.
Again, I do not know if I can explain this any clearer. A low paid worker who barely speaks English is checking for file completeness at breakneck speed. Complete files go in a green plastic bin for the next step of evaluation. Incomplete files go in a blue plastic bin to be returned to applicants. This is done faster than they can really go and they are still way behind because they are understaffed. There is no way for someone to put your file aside and keep it there while while you send the missing papers. There are hundreds and thousands of files rejected each day. It is just not possible to do it any other way unless you hire three times the number of workers.

This is like asking why a car factory cannot just make a special model for you with your own requirements. They are not set up for that and it would be a major problem. This is like asking a guy who sells on ebay thousands of items a month why he wont take your check and will only take Paypal. Because he is set up that way and changing the system is just not practical.

You may think you are unique and all important but to the US government you are less than a speck of dust. They really care very little about American citizens and they care nothing about foreigners. They're like the phone company. They don't care. They don't have to.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2019, 12:55:23 pm »
Again, I do not know if I can explain this any clearer. A low paid worker who barely speaks English is checking for file completeness at breakneck speed. Complete files go in a green plastic bin for the next step of evaluation. Incomplete files go in a blue plastic bin to be returned to applicants. This is done faster than they can really go and they are still way behind because they are understaffed. There is no way for someone to put your file aside and keep it there while while you send the missing papers. There are hundreds and thousands of files rejected each day. It is just not possible to do it any other way unless you hire three times the number of workers.

This is like asking why a car factory cannot just make a special model for you with your own requirements. They are not set up for that and it would be a major problem. This is like asking a guy who sells on ebay thousands of items a month why he wont take your check and will only take Paypal. Because he is set up that way and changing the system is just not practical.

You may think you are unique and all important but to the US government you are less than a speck of dust. They really care very little about American citizens and they care nothing about foreigners. They're like the phone company. They don't care. They don't have to.
Do you know this is the actual procedure in the US or are you venting and speculating?
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2019, 01:19:30 pm »
Again, I do not know if I can explain this any clearer. A low paid worker who barely speaks English is checking for file completeness at breakneck speed. Complete files go in a green plastic bin for the next step of evaluation. Incomplete files go in a blue plastic bin to be returned to applicants. This is done faster than they can really go and they are still way behind because they are understaffed. There is no way for someone to put your file aside and keep it there while while you send the missing papers. There are hundreds and thousands of files rejected each day. It is just not possible to do it any other way unless you hire three times the number of workers.

This is like asking why a car factory cannot just make a special model for you with your own requirements. They are not set up for that and it would be a major problem. This is like asking a guy who sells on ebay thousands of items a month why he wont take your check and will only take Paypal. Because he is set up that way and changing the system is just not practical.

You may think you are unique and all important but to the US government you are less than a speck of dust. They really care very little about American citizens and they care nothing about foreigners. They're like the phone company. They don't care. They don't have to.

Clearly you don't get what OP means... Just because things are done wrong they should stay wrong just because it's how it has been for the last decade, for example. Let's not optimize things because optimising is bad and makes people work too much or make more with less.

"They are the government! They are always right even when they are not right!!!", right?
 

Offline soldar

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2019, 01:21:31 pm »
Do you know this is the actual procedure in the US or are you venting and speculating?
I don't know where you see any "venting" but, yes, I know this for a fact. I personally know a non-citizen who was doing that kind of work very few years ago. I remember vaguely the documents are processed in only two or three centers for all of the USA. The files go through a first screening just to verify everything is complete and even in the right order so when the bureaucrat receives the file he can go right into the evaluation and not waste time checking for missing documents, etc. If a document is missing the file does not even get to the bureaucrat.
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Offline soldar

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2019, 01:32:08 pm »
Clearly you don't get what OP means... Just because things are done wrong they should stay wrong just because it's how it has been for the last decade, for example. Let's not optimize things because optimising is bad and makes people work too much or make more with less.

"They are the government! They are always right even when they are not right!!!", right?
You didn't read the thread did you? You might want to re-read the thread because I don't see that I said anywhere that "the government is always right". Especially if you read the last phrase of my previous post. Read it.

I did not express any opinion on the matter. I just explained why things work the way they do and that it is done that way because it saves money.  If you have a better solution the US Government would like to hear from you.

Quote
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
- - H. L. Mencken

« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 01:33:49 pm by soldar »
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Offline dnwheeler

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2019, 02:28:20 pm »
I can't speak to this particular situation, but any big company or organization that deals with large quantities of submitted paperwork has processes in place to optimize their throughput. Typically, the first person involved just does a basic verification that the file is complete (e.g., are there 10 pages, is page 3 signed, does the name match in each location it appears, etc.). This is either preceded by or followed by scanning the document into a computer. The scanning process may make assumptions about what data is on each page, so leaving out pages that don't apply could offset all the following pages.

These processes are all about removing the need for workers to think and make decisions. The amount of extra work put on the person submitting the paperwork is not a factor.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2019, 03:39:34 pm »
People seem to be more understanding when it is a computer process that rejects something. "Oh, well, it's a computer."

But if it is a human they consider it unforgivable, not realizing the human is doing exactly the same: applying extremely simple rules to the situation.

It would not make sense to put a much higher paid human, with higher capability to make decisions, so that a few applications could save a few sheets of paper. It makes more sense to make the process as simple as possible so that it can be done by the lowest qualified person.

I can understand the motivation and the frustration of the OP but it is just a mistake and nobody is in the wrong.

I have learned to fill forms completely. Leave nothing blank. Write "N/A" or cross out if it does not apply. If the form is seven pages with a total of 75 boxes I will fill out every single one and check and double check each one. And there's a good chance a mistake still crept in so I will check again the next day.

I hate bureaucracy. I believe bureaucracy is a cancer that can be very damaging to a country and it should be kept to a minimum. Spain is awful in this regard. Just awful.

Also, most countries assign insufficient resources to immigration because immigrants can't vote and because many nationals are xenophobic and support giving those furriners a hard time. Immigration bureaucracy is hell pretty much everywhere.

But, having said that, if you are careful, fill and fulfill everything correctly, file it in time, and meet all requirements, generally things work out well.

Of course, you can always come across the asshole who takes pleasure in making others miserable. There's a lot of people like that in the world. And people who support them. It is a sad fact of life.

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Offline rrinker

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2019, 05:56:56 pm »
 This is pretty much EVERY government, EVERYWHERE. The rote workers who enter the forms are little more than robots. Then go page by page, if you leave out a blank page, then they are off by one page and they literally can't figure out what went wrong. That deep in the bureaucracy, you are not dealing with anything like the "best and the brightest".

 Even in private industry - although in private industry you can (usually) get rid of the underperformers - years ago we had to get a lot of paper records copied in to an electronic system, and the quickest way was to set up heads down data entry screens and bring in a bunch of temp workers for a few hours each night. Coworker and I wrote and tested the heads down system, which included double blind entry for accuracy and also included performance metrics. After the first night's reports were reviewed, it was nearly a shining example of the 80/20 principal, 20% of the workers did 80% of the data entry, the most reliably. We only had the top 50% come back the second night, and there was no reduction at all in data throughput.
 

Offline macboy

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2019, 06:41:11 pm »
... It is just not possible to do it any other way unless you hire three times the number of workers.

This is like asking why a car factory cannot just make a special model for you with your own requirements. They are not set up for that and it would be a major problem. ...
[snip]
Actually, the American car companies do exactly that. I custom ordered my most recent vehicle (Ford). I wanted a higher end trim level but no sunroof (combination impossible to find on a dealer's lot), I needed a towing package (hitch, wiring, transmission cooler). I wanted a specific interior/exterior color combination, and a specific style of wheel. No problem. Make a down payment, wait about a month. Done. Getting my car my way was a true joy compared to the compromises I had to make when buying a Nissan or Subaru in the past.

On topic though, I completely agree with your argument and point. The procedure is the procedure, likely for many reasons.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2019, 10:12:33 pm »
This is pretty much EVERY government, EVERYWHERE. The rote workers who enter the forms are little more than robots. Then go page by page, if you leave out a blank page, then they are off by one page and they literally can't figure out what went wrong. That deep in the bureaucracy, you are not dealing with anything like the "best and the brightest".
You say that like its a bad thing but see it in a different light. I see it as a good thing to structure the work so it can be done with the least amount of training, by the people with lowest possible qualifications. Yes, you could have a fully trained lawyer doing it but the cost would be huge and people would complain about high taxes for paying lawyers to do a job which could be done by a trained monkey. And people with no education or training also vote and they believe they have a right to make a living.

I believe one of the causes of the huge success of America in the last century is that it understood designing manufacturing and other processes so they could be done by the least qualified people who could do the job. (Also for training people to do the highest job they could do.) 

Even dentists and surgeons have their minions do all the preparatory work and then they come in to do their masterful job. That way they are much more productive. Lawyers have their paralegals, etc.


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Offline windsmurf

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2019, 10:51:25 pm »
This is pretty much EVERY government, EVERYWHERE. The rote workers who enter the forms are little more than robots. Then go page by page, if you leave out a blank page, then they are off by one page and they literally can't figure out what went wrong. That deep in the bureaucracy, you are not dealing with anything like the "best and the brightest".
...
paying lawyers to do a job which could be done by a trained monkey. And people with no education or training also vote and they believe they have a right to make a living.

I believe one of the causes of the huge success of America in the last century is that it understood designing manufacturing and other processes so they could be done by the least qualified people who could do the job. (Also for training people to do the highest job they could do.) 
...

The problem is, the trained monkey jobs are all getting eliminated by automation. 
Those whose jobs have been eliminated vote for demagogues like Trump who blame everyone else for their condition.
Its ironic that its the progressives that want to help them most... through better public education and accessible higher education and healthcare.
 
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Offline splin

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2019, 10:52:03 pm »
Did the instructions state to include all pages? I fail to see how, if one hasn't followed the instructions, it's someone else's fault.

I do the same thing at work, if someone hasn't followed instructions, I'll reject what they send me. I don't have the time to sit there correcting other people's mistakes or second-guessing what they intend.

My sympathies. But I'm guessing you are employed by an institution which has a mission statement with hyperbolic phrases including the words "outstanding", "customer", "satisfaction", "paramount", "service" etc. etc? Unless you work for the government in which case none of those apply...
 

Offline splin

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2019, 11:32:07 pm »
I can't speak to this particular situation, but any big company or organization that deals with large quantities of submitted paperwork has processes in place to optimize their throughput. Typically, the first person involved just does a basic verification that the file is complete (e.g., are there 10 pages, is page 3 signed, does the name match in each location it appears, etc.). This is either preceded by or followed by scanning the document into a computer. The scanning process may make assumptions about what data is on each page, so leaving out pages that don't apply could offset all the following pages.

These processes are all about removing the need for workers to think and make decisions. The amount of extra work put on the person submitting the paperwork is not a factor.

So "optimized" that they get to have to post it back along with some explanation of why it failed. And then do it all again when it is resubmitted, all because the checker wasn't programmed to check if the checkboxes (or whatever) which determine if the pages omitted by the OP were required were checked or not.

And after the second submission has been processed and approved by the first line checkers, someone still has to decide if Page X and Y needed to be filled in or not. This second line employee, presumably better paid than the first, has to make the check; it could fail so be rejected again and everybody gets to pay the costs of resubmitting and validating for a third time. Got to love these efficiency experts... 

So in this particular case a crap system, which increased the organisation's cost quite unnecessarily, leading to resentment from customers who aren't used to dealing with organisations who clearly don't give a s**t about customer satisfaction. But it is a government organisation so probably chalked it up as a success. I'm also assuming the applicant doesn't have to pay a resubmission fee which would encourage such bad processes.

Note that I am *not* saying that first line checks are not important to reject clearly invalid applications.
 

Offline magic

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2019, 07:48:10 am »
Its ironic that its the progressives that want to help them most... through better public education and accessible higher education and healthcare.
You can't help idiots by education.
Egalitarians will never get it and you will never understand that leaders like Hitler or Trump are elected precisely when egalitarianism/liberalism/globalism/democracy/etc get thoroughly debunked by the very act of trying to make them happen.

In reality, literally half of the population is below 100IQ. But yeah, intelligence is a social construct and genetics is a pseudo-science invented by bourgeoisie to justify racism and aristocracy. I have heard it all, the Soviets figured it out 80 years before American Democrats did :P
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2019, 08:39:16 am »
Its ironic that its the progressives that want to help them most... through better public education and accessible higher education and healthcare.
You can't help idiots by education.

Not all persons doing "trained monkey" work are idiots.  Many are there due to difficult life circumstances, and are unable to get out.

Egalitarians will never get it and you will never understand that leaders like Hitler or Trump are elected precisely when egalitarianism/liberalism/globalism/democracy/etc get thoroughly debunked by the very act of trying to make them happen.

My take on the cause of Hitler's rise is that he came to power, thanks to the Treaty of Versailles and undue economic burden imposed by the Treaty on the German people after WWI.  And just like Trump, he blamed ethnic minorities (Jews) and progressives of their day (Marxists) for all of the troubles of the German people.
https://www.thoughtco.com/treaty-of-versailles-hitlers-rise-power-1221351

My take on the cause of Trump's rise is the stagnation of the middle-class, which began with Reagonomics.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/column-how-reaganomics-deregulation-and-bailouts-led-to-the-rise-of-trump

Egalitarianism/liberalism has nothing to do with Trump's rise; however, Trump is using, like Hitler, egalitarians/liberals and Ethnic Groups as targets of his demagogic rhetoric. 

In reality, literally half of the population is below 100IQ. But yeah, intelligence is a social construct and genetics is a pseudo-science invented by bourgeoisie to justify racism and aristocracy. I have heard it all, the Soviets figured it out 80 years before American Democrats did :P

Sure, there are many people with low IQ's.  Progressives don't doubt that.  What we don't belive in doing is kicking them to the curb to rot and die with no healthcare and no support.

Sorry this has gotten off-topic...

One of these days papers will be eliminated, and paper trails won't be necessary with blockchain authentication and verification.  So in the future, Blueskull hopefully won't have to deal with missing papers...or any papers at all.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 09:14:21 am by windsmurf »
 
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Offline thm_w

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2019, 08:58:23 pm »
I forgot to mention the best part.

I also attached a form that gives them consent to contact me in Emails, and of course, my Email address and phone number.

They didn't bother to send me anything before shipping the entire application package back to me :palm:.

To their credit, the regulation does say that they are supposed to send me acceptance notification to my Email address if I filed the consent form, not rejection notice.

But I would be very appreciating if they can deviate a little bit from SOP and actually give me a heads up so I can send them additional pages ASAP.

Same thing here in Canada, at least for immigration department:
- Sent application in with all of the required materials (they have a checklist you go through), included email and phone as required, linked to an online account.
- Many many months later rejection letter received saying "Missing this one document - denied", no email, no phone call, no possibility for appeal, the only option is pay $500 and start the application all over again. Literally could have uploaded the "missing" document to them within an hour if they had asked. :palm:

It is incredibly frustrating and I don't blame you for making a mistake like this, there are so many little things you need to know to "navigate" the system. Which is why a lot of people pay consultants, who've gone through many applications.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2019, 11:08:18 pm »
This is pretty much EVERY government, EVERYWHERE. The rote workers who enter the forms are little more than robots. Then go page by page, if you leave out a blank page, then they are off by one page and they literally can't figure out what went wrong. That deep in the bureaucracy, you are not dealing with anything like the "best and the brightest".

 Even in private industry - although in private industry you can (usually) get rid of the underperformers - years ago we had to get a lot of paper records copied in to an electronic system, and the quickest way was to set up heads down data entry screens and bring in a bunch of temp workers for a few hours each night. Coworker and I wrote and tested the heads down system, which included double blind entry for accuracy and also included performance metrics. After the first night's reports were reviewed, it was nearly a shining example of the 80/20 principal, 20% of the workers did 80% of the data entry, the most reliably. We only had the top 50% come back the second night, and there was no reduction at all in data throughput.

Some of them may have been quite bright at one time.  But it doesn't take many days, weeks, months or years of stultifying work to dull the sharpest tool.  While it is true that those who are capable often escape these jobs before losing all of their edge, many circumstances can cause good people to stay on past their survival date.  And bureaucracies have golden handcuff policies just to keep people from moving around.  Why do you think those cushy pensions exist?
 

Online tooki

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2019, 11:55:15 pm »
You can't help idiots by education.
No, but lack of education and other mental stimulation actually creates more idiots: we know that unstimulated children’s brains do not develop as many neural connections as the brains in children with more stimulation. This does not, obviously, eradicate other factors, so not every stimulated kid will end up a genius. But lack of stimulation will cause some kids to never develop the potential they had.

As for the rest of your comment, it’s pointless drivel not worth the time to reply to...
 

Offline Bud

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #60 on: July 19, 2019, 01:36:24 am »
the required materials (they have a checklist you go through), included email and phone as required,
- Many many months later rejection letter received saying "Missing this one document - denied", no email, no phone call, no possibility for appeal, the only option is pay $500 and start the application all over again. Literally could have uploaded the "missing" document to them within an hour if they had asked
I never received a single email from the Government in my life. All is done via post office. Irecall they said they do not use email to communicate with citizens. And honestly, for you own protection , you do not want to use email . All of "Tax Office" and similar emails so far come from fraudsters.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline magic

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2019, 06:03:01 am »
No, but lack of education and other mental stimulation actually creates more idiots: we know that unstimulated children’s brains do not develop as many neural connections as the brains in children with more stimulation. This does not, obviously, eradicate other factors, so not every stimulated kid will end up a genius. But lack of stimulation will cause some kids to never develop the potential they had.
It's all theoretical concerns and handwaving, while I actually come from place which already has free public education up to university level and people are as dumb as they have always been, of course. Some would probably be better off if they haven't been forced to endure the 10 years of mandatory primary educatation which exists here and still leaves little impression on them anyway. Teach them to read and write and let them work.

Automation hasn't made dumb people obsolete at all, otherwise those bright young starts of ours wouldn't be emigrating to the UK or masses of Ukrainians wouldn't be coming here. Because dumb jobs is the jobs those migrants predominantly do. Higher education is not a requirement to work in construction or as a cashier. It's just a matter that "smart" people thought they deserve to have those jobs done cheaper than it would cost to hire fairly paid local workers, who have families to feed locally for local prices and are already used to some minimum standards of living, unlike immigrants from ex-commie shitholes and even worse places.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 06:06:02 am by magic »
 

Online tooki

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2019, 07:02:51 pm »
the required materials (they have a checklist you go through), included email and phone as required,
- Many many months later rejection letter received saying "Missing this one document - denied", no email, no phone call, no possibility for appeal, the only option is pay $500 and start the application all over again. Literally could have uploaded the "missing" document to them within an hour if they had asked
I never received a single email from the Government in my life. All is done via post office. Irecall they said they do not use email to communicate with citizens. And honestly, for you own protection , you do not want to use email . All of "Tax Office" and similar emails so far come from fraudsters.
For sure snail mail is the default of governments worldwide. But I have definitely used email successfully with both the county board of elections and the state motor vehicle administration of my home state in USA. I also get updates from the US embassy by email.
 

Online tooki

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2019, 07:03:30 pm »
No, but lack of education and other mental stimulation actually creates more idiots: we know that unstimulated children’s brains do not develop as many neural connections as the brains in children with more stimulation. This does not, obviously, eradicate other factors, so not every stimulated kid will end up a genius. But lack of stimulation will cause some kids to never develop the potential they had.
It's all theoretical concerns and handwaving, while I actually come from place which already has free public education up to university level and people are as dumb as they have always been, of course. Some would probably be better off if they haven't been forced to endure the 10 years of mandatory primary educatation which exists here and still leaves little impression on them anyway. Teach them to read and write and let them work.

Automation hasn't made dumb people obsolete at all, otherwise those bright young starts of ours wouldn't be emigrating to the UK or masses of Ukrainians wouldn't be coming here. Because dumb jobs is the jobs those migrants predominantly do. Higher education is not a requirement to work in construction or as a cashier. It's just a matter that "smart" people thought they deserve to have those jobs done cheaper than it would cost to hire fairly paid local workers, who have families to feed locally for local prices and are already used to some minimum standards of living, unlike immigrants from ex-commie shitholes and even worse places.
No no no, you misunderstand: if you didn't have public education, you'd have a lot more dumb people.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: [Rant] Since when paper saving has been a crime
« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2019, 08:30:02 pm »
I never received a single email from the Government in my life. All is done via post office. Irecall they said they do not use email to communicate with citizens. And honestly, for you own protection , you do not want to use email . All of "Tax Office" and similar emails so far come from fraudsters.

Email is used for CRA, its just that there is no content in the email itself and it will say "new message, check your account online".
Immigration has a similar online system, but they don't make much use of it.
 


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