"Smart" TVs, AI and basically spying on people...

[NiHaoMike]

It would be funny to find a "drive by" vulnerability that can be used to upload a (not so) "malware" that performs a DoS attack against the data collection servers and maybe even close the very security hole it entered through.

[lhk5195]

It is conceivable that if AI truly develops, the emergence of Terminators in Skynet is bound to happen sooner or later. Didn't an AI teaming-up incident just happen recently?

[tom66]

If they choose to have their TVs connect to a wifi interface they've negotiated access to, they can do that. They already do with cars - both wifi and cell. You don't get a say.

But, you could get into it and perhaps mangle what's being sent? It's likely they put more effort into having the feature work and less effort on keeping hackers out.

It will be data sent over HTTPS.  You'd only be able to mangle it at the source itself, by modifying the TV's software, or by emulating what a TV sent (you'd likely have to steal the TV's certificates, but that's not too hard if you got root access to the TV.)

[Randy222]

If they choose to have their TVs connect to a wifi interface they've negotiated access to, they can do that. They already do with cars - both wifi and cell. You don't get a say.

But, you could get into it and perhaps mangle what's being sent? It's likely they put more effort into having the feature work and less effort on keeping hackers out.

It will be data sent over HTTPS.  You'd only be able to mangle it at the source itself, by modifying the TV's software, or by emulating what a TV sent (you'd likely have to steal the TV's certificates, but that's not too hard if you got root access to the TV.)

If there's a way in, then there's a way to hack it. That has always been a flaw with computing goods.

[PlainName]

I suspect that LG would throw massive weight behind having the perpetrators given jail time for unauthorized computer access.

[Andy Chee]

I suspect that LG would throw massive weight behind having the perpetrators given jail time for unauthorized computer access.

One would think that before attempting to perform unauthorised computer access, that the perpetrator(s) have fully anonymised their attack vector(s).

[madires]

I suspect that LG would throw massive weight behind having the perpetrators given jail time for unauthorized computer access.

Or they will sell you a subscription for an AI powered total protection package.

[studiot]

I suspect that LG would throw massive weight behind having the perpetrators given jail time for unauthorized computer access.

Or they will sell you a subscription for an AI powered total protection package.

Deep Freeze is the only 'total protection package' I know of that actually works, since hardware versions have gone out of style.

[studiot]

For those that might be interested and have access to UK television
Channel 5 has an investigative programme about similar complaints for mobile phones.

Wed 23 sept 1900 BST  or 1800 GMT

[Randy222]

For those that might be interested and have access to UK television
Channel 5 has an investigative programme about similar complaints for mobile phones.

Wed 23 sept 1900 BST  or 1800 GMT

Many things IoT have lots of china made stuff in it.
If one wants assurance for security, chip stuff that is made on home turf by reputable company names would be the 1st step.
Open source firmware would be the 2nd step.

Unless you have those two, then consider the thingy as a spy device.

[PlainName]

For those that might be interested and have access to UK television
Channel 5 has an investigative programme about similar complaints for mobile phones.

Wed 23 sept 1900 BST  or 1800 GMT

Many things IoT have lots of china made stuff in it.
If one wants assurance for security, chip stuff that is made on home turf by reputable company names would be the 1st step.
Open source firmware would be the 2nd step.

Unless you have those two, then consider the thingy as a spy device.

Haven't seen the programme yet (set to record) but ISTM there are two distinct scenarios. One is some foreign (or even local!) government organisation spying. I don't think that's what the programme is about and it isn't what has been discussed so far in this thread. While it is something to consider, but non-governmental or otherwise sensitive users it is below the radar.

The second, and what we are about here, is some manufacturer sucking up data to sell on for profit, and/or keeping track of the user (what they do, what they watch, where they go, etc) for similar purposes. It is this that is particularly irritating for the average user.

So, while China fear is valid, please don't conflate it with the thing being discussed here.

[Randy222]

The second, and what we are about here, is some manufacturer sucking up data to sell on for profit, and/or keeping track of the user (what they do, what they watch, where they go, etc) for similar purposes. It is this that is particularly irritating for the average user.

So, while China fear is valid, please don't conflate it with the thing being discussed here.

Ok, "them" collecting data, is usually in the fine print of the EULA print in font size 0.01 on the paper that come with.
So, either use the product per the EULA, or don't.

Certainly if it's not disclosed in any way, that "they" will collect data via the device "they" sold you, then by all means go after those evil doers. It is however a fruitless task IMHO.

Heck, I just did firmware update on my Bravia TV, I had to select some items for "privacy" and hit "agree". The odd one was, "select this box to experience all the Smart features", and the description said that Sony would collect some basic info about the TV (serial, model, etc). Hmmm, to get all the features I must agree to Sony collecting data? I did not select that item, didnt select any items. Not even sure what "features" I would or would not get with that checkbox. The default DENY is my approach.

[PlainName]

The vast majority never read EULAs. Maybe, once upon a time, they figured there really ought to and gave it a try, and that convinced them to just not bother in future.

But EULAs, that I've read, are often unclear on what data is used and for what purpose. Further, the company's 'partners' maybe be simply the contractor checking for problems or the clients they are selling the stuff to. So is letting them have the data a good idea or is not using it just cutting off your nose for no reason?

Even when I get the option to opt out (it is not often opt in, of course) and choose that, I still don't believe that they will take note of that. After all, it is just their word that they will, honest guv, and if they were that trustworthy their wouldn't be anything to opt out of in the first place. So I also just block what I can with third party tools available to me as a matter of course.

But the problem with this approach is that it become the norm. And then the exception because the norm has meantime moved to "perfectly OK to monetise your life". One hopes that something like this program (still haven't watched it yet) would raise awareness in the greater population and lead to the norm ratcheting back a bit, at least for a while. That did actually happen once with Phorm: when it blew up they got properly rogered and things rolled back for a while. Didn't last, of course

[Randy222]

EULA's are the loophole, and the product folks know it.

When your PII suddenly shows up as being sold off for profit, it's still a burden coming into that issue after the fact. If we read the EULA but then thought "hmmm, not very clear here", and still used the product, that's the quick-sand trap, probably should have passed on using the product given the "not very clear" parts.

Toyota is said to collect data that is technically your data.

There are legit reasons to collect some types of data, but in my book it cannot go past the product itself. Example, vehicle telemetry data, being sold to insurance companies so they can re-price regional plans should be a crime. However, collecting data on how the vehicle is working to pre-empt an issue, like odd shifts in spark timing or engine temps that suddenly run hotter than usual, could be used to alert the owner before it becomes a real problem.

Aircraft should be sending tons of performance data into AI looking for signs before an issue arises. The word "agentic" comes to mind. Could very well have a C2 system that can literally adjust performance of the aircraft in realtime in an effort to avoid an issue that the pilots may never be aware of. Or at least, the actions agentic would do could be relayed into the cockpit. Doable yes, but it needs time to mature.

Radar systems can feed data into agentic AI, if two planes appear to be on near-collision course, the AI could alert tower folks and/or the aircraft involved. This is way better than relying on just ATC or tower people to watch glass.

[studiot]

Well I rated the program as fair.
It was clearly media production company led so content was presented in sensationalist manner.

However there were some interesting and disturbing pieces of information presented.

Why for instance should an air fryer be sending any data details to anyone about what the owner was cooking or when she was cooking it ?

My main question went unanswered though.

It was made clear that a vast amount of unnecessary data is collected, transmitted not only to one but often many recipients, and then stored in data stores.
In fact the impression that the unnecessary data swamped the necessary but not figures were supplied as to by what factor.
What this means is that the purchaser is paying for a great deal of hardware he does not want or need for his purposes and that the product could be much cheaper without that overlay.

[Randy222]

Why for instance should an air fryer be sending any data details to anyone about what the owner was cooking or when she was cooking it ?

I can tell you why, because some data scientist said it's good data to have.
What time of day, how long, temp setting, is all data that does not identify you or the food, it describes patterns on how food is cooked, and for those machines that you scan a Q code then they now know what items are more popular than others.

You do know why milk is in the back of the store, yes? It took a little time to figure that one out, that milk and eggs sales were very popular, so why not make people walk the whole store to get it.

Gool collects a ton of data, most of it we think of it as "what for?", they have a use for it.

[tom66]

You do know why milk is in the back of the store, yes? It took a little time to figure that one out, that milk and eggs sales were very popular, so why not make people walk the whole store to get it.

Gool collects a ton of data, most of it we think of it as "what for?", they have a use for it.

Even more so most of the time milk and eggs are either loss leaders or sold at cost so they want you to pick up more things on the way.
For convenience stores the opposite is usually true, milk might be frequently purchased from such places, which means they tend to more prominently site these goods.