Author Topic: [YouTube]: American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design  (Read 14872 times)

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Offline Simon

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2022, 02:58:37 pm »
It's a joke, lets not get into "that" debate.
 

Offline MadScientist

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2022, 03:18:09 pm »
I have moved from U.K. plug land ( Ireland ) to Schuko ( Greece ) I way prefer Schuko
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Online wraper

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2022, 03:33:21 pm »
I have moved from U.K. plug land ( Ireland ) to Schuko ( Greece ) I way prefer Schuko
Schuko is garbage. Non polarized and unreliable. I've seen plenty of them eventually fail with melted and carbonized plastic around terminals when intensely used close to the max rated current. And those were sockets from reputable manufacturers like Siemens. Sockets from less reputable manufacturers have an unreliable contact even with light use. Sockets which are protected from inserting things are garbage too. UK socket mechanism relies on earth prong to release the shutter on live terminals. Schuko is either unprotected, or even worse, protected and relies on garbage shutters you need to push though with a lot of force, some sockets are nearly impossible to use because of that. Works especially bad with phone chargers and similar things which often get damaged with bent or broken prongs as a result.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2022, 03:36:37 pm by wraper »
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2022, 04:04:23 pm »
Well, we all know there is a clearly superior mains wiring solution, and you are already using it. It is IEC 60320 C13 and the E plug. The C13 plugs are virtually on every computer and home equipment with replaceable wiring. It's 1/4 the size of the British plug and about the size of the American 2 prong (which is hot garbage). It exist in lockable version. Extension cords interlock, you only would ever need a male to female version of the cable. Extension boxes are super easy to wire and to make them reliable and it is polarized. And it's an existing standard.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2022, 04:42:48 pm »
I believe shuko are 16a rated? In Italy they have similar plugs, one size is 16A and the other 10A, most sockets are dual size, they also have shuko, it's a right mess. The UK used to have a 3 pin plug that is the roughly the same shape as the current ones but with none of the considerations of the current ones, then there were 2 or more sizes.

I've put 16A through a UK plug, they handle it, get a bit warm but quite happy. I've heard of one finally melting at 46A
« Last Edit: October 22, 2022, 04:47:49 pm by Simon »
 

Online themadhippy

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2022, 05:20:51 pm »
Quote
I believe shuko are 16a rated?
yep,same as a 16A ceeform,i know which id trust most to handle 16A 24/7
Quote
The UK used to have a 3 pin plug that is the roughly the same shape as the current ones but with none of the considerations of the current ones, then there were 2 or more sizes.
Do you mean the old round pin 15A, 5A and 2A,rarely fused and until fairly recently non shrouded pins,the 15A and 5A is still very common  for dimmed supply's in theatres.The 5A and 2A  is also still in use for lighting circuits were you want to centrally control over  table lamps
 

Offline james_s

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2022, 05:31:11 pm »
So did we in the UK. The BS1363 plug & socket was a replacement, developed as a result of a committee set up in 1942 to consider the electrical aspects of post-war rebuilding. One of its members (and the only safety specialist) was the electrical engineer Caroline Haslett https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Haslett, noted (among many, many other things) for her activism in promoting the use of electricity in the home to reduce women's workload, and in home safety.

Of course the BS1363 plug is a model of good design - a woman was responsible for it!

That's relatively recent compared to the American NEMA 15 plug, which was developed in 1904 and remains in common use today. It has been improved with polarization and grounding but an original 1904 plug will fit perfectly in a modern receptacle.
 

Online coppice

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2022, 05:49:49 pm »
I have moved from U.K. plug land ( Ireland ) to Schuko ( Greece ) I way prefer Schuko
Schuko is garbage. Non polarized and unreliable. I've seen plenty of them eventually fail with melted and carbonized plastic around terminals when intensely used close to the max rated current. And those were sockets from reputable manufacturers like Siemens. Sockets from less reputable manufacturers have an unreliable contact even with light use. Sockets which are protected from inserting things are garbage too. UK socket mechanism relies on earth prong to release the shutter on live terminals. Schuko is either unprotected, or even worse, protected and relies on garbage shutters you need to push though with a lot of force, some sockets are nearly impossible to use because of that. Works especially bad with phone chargers and similar things which often get damaged with bent or broken prongs as a result.
The UK plugs often weld into their socket, through melting/melding of the plastic with older sockets. There was a plague of this when the plastic half sleeve was introduced on the live and neutral pins. The contact position inside the socket had not previously been well defined, and many sockets were contacting the pin close to the plastic/metal transition. The resulting poor contact meant high consumption appliances, like tumble dryers, that run for long periods would melt the plug and socket into each other. Things like kettle are usually OK, as they run in shorter bursts.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2022, 05:55:12 pm »
Quote
The UK plugs often weld into their socket, through melting/melding of the plastic with older sockets.

Really? I've never experienced that.  :-\

You must have some really old sockets.
Best Regards, Chris
 

Online coppice

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2022, 06:34:08 pm »
Quote
The UK plugs often weld into their socket, through melting/melding of the plastic with older sockets.

Really? I've never experienced that.  :-\

You must have some really old sockets.
Its probably a matter of makes. MK developed the sleeve design, and probably always made sockets which work well with them. Old Crabtree and Contactum sockets would weld. Clipsal sockets of any vintage will weld, but they are not exactly high quality products.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2022, 06:50:17 pm »
I've never heard of it but then how long ago was the plastic bit added?
 

Online coppice

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2022, 06:55:48 pm »
I've never heard of it but then how long ago was the plastic bit added?
The regulations changed to add the sleeve in 1984, but MK was making plugs with sleeves for a number of years before that.
 

Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2022, 07:07:52 pm »
coppice answered it, but you can check it out here: https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/British-plugSocket_history.html

The complete history, but it is just the one site so how trust worthy is it 8)

Offline Simon

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2022, 07:38:29 pm »
OK in 1984 I was 1.....
 

Offline b_force

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2022, 07:44:22 pm »
I am very confused about a big portion of the replies here.

A plug design is a mixture of being safe (probably highest priority), size/convenience and costs.
These plugs have certain standards that have to be met.

I have read some stories of plugs being burned or so.
I believe those stories, but keep in mind that these plugs were also not confirm standards.
Because that is not normal behavior for such a plug.

As for safety, I really don't understand US standard plugs.
They are very prone to kind of hang out of the socket with both pins totally exposed, very easy to touch (even more so for little fingers)
AUS/NZ plugs used to have the same problem, and therefor modern plugs need have to have a coated on the pins (that is mandatory according current standards).
US plugs are also extremely easy to kick/slap/pulled out of the socket.
I just really don't understand at all how such a plug with such simple safety flaws can be a standard at all?


All other choices are just kind of different taste I guess.

A modern schuko is totally recessed in the socket, so any (side) force on it is dealt with by the socket itself (which is quite a big surface).
Most other type plugs (UK or US) all rely on the mechanical strength of the electrical pins.
Which is from a electro-mechanical point of view, kind of interesting.
The same goes for rectangular shaped pins, which are not only a little more tricky to make, they also have a less uniform design.
Which is less great for mechanical stress, corrosion and electrical loads.

Schuko can also mounted either way, which is totally fine for any electrical device made from about the 90s or so.

I personally don't have a preference as long as the plug is safe and sturdy.
I guess the schuko is just a compromise between that, as well as not being so enormous like UK plugs.
(that size just doesn't make any sense)

In the end it's obviously also not possible to change a whole plug type for any country.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2022, 07:46:05 pm by b_force »
 

Offline Simon

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2022, 08:39:45 pm »
I do seem to remember wondering at the US plugs, they are rather exposed. At least 120V is not quite as dangerous as 240V (250V at mine still - yay for transmission efficiency)
 

Offline james_s

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2022, 08:58:36 pm »
As for safety, I really don't understand US standard plugs.
They are very prone to kind of hang out of the socket with both pins totally exposed, very easy to touch (even more so for little fingers)
AUS/NZ plugs used to have the same problem, and therefor modern plugs need have to have a coated on the pins (that is mandatory according current standards).
US plugs are also extremely easy to kick/slap/pulled out of the socket.
I just really don't understand at all how such a plug with such simple safety flaws can be a standard at all?

Because they have been in use for over 100 years and people just know not to touch the prongs. You have to be really careless to get a shock, certainly never in my life have I ever been shocked by the prongs of a plug. Also the voltage is half what it is in places like the UK so a shock is much less likely to be lethal. Another thing worth noting, light sockets throughout the world have no safety mechanisms that I've ever seen, a person can easily insert a finger in an empty socket and receive a shock. Is that really so much different than being able to touch part of a plug you're not supposed to touch? Electricity is dangerous, it's easier to teach people how to handle it safely than to try to protect against every possible abuse.

Being able to kick/pull a plug out of a receptacle is in many cases a feature and not a bug. If you trip over a cord it's usually better to pull the plug out of the wall than to yank the appliance onto the floor or trip and fall, possibly injuring yourself. A good quality receptacle holds the plug pretty firmly, they don't just fall out, unless it's a very cheap and well worn receptacle.
 

Online coppice

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2022, 08:59:57 pm »
I do seem to remember wondering at the US plugs, they are rather exposed. At least 120V is not quite as dangerous as 240V (250V at mine still - yay for transmission efficiency)
A lot of US sockets have an RCB/GFCI in them these days, especially in bathrooms. They seem to have gone down this path, rather than improve the plug and socket.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2022, 09:03:37 pm »
A lot of US sockets have an RCB/GFCI in them these days, especially in bathrooms. They seem to have gone down this path, rather than improve the plug and socket.

GFCI protection is required in damp locations, it has been required in bathrooms, garages and outdoor receptacles since the late 70s and in the 90s I think was when they added that requirement for kitchen receptacles or anything within 6' IIRC of a water source. They are primarily for protecting against leakage due to things being wet.
 

Online themadhippy

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2022, 09:09:58 pm »
Quote
Schuko can also mounted either way, which is totally fine for any electrical device made from about the 90s or so.
Even a table lamp with an es lamp base?
Quote
light sockets throughout the world have no safety mechanisms that I've ever seen,
best  come to the uk and have a look at our enhanced safety lamp holder,with the lamp out theres no power to the pins.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2022, 09:13:38 pm »
Another thing worth noting, light sockets throughout the world have no safety mechanisms that I've ever seen, a person can easily insert a finger in an empty socket and receive a shock. Is that really so much different than being able to touch part of a plug you're not supposed to touch?

The difference being those you can turn off, and you don't have to interact with them regularly.

Quote
Electricity is dangerous, it's easier to teach people how to handle it safely than to try to protect against every possible abuse.

Swiftly followed by..

Quote
Being able to kick/pull a plug out of a receptacle is in many cases a feature and not a bug. If you trip over a cord it's usually better to pull the plug out of the wall than to yank the appliance onto the floor or trip and fall, possibly injuring yourself.

Because it's easier to make a crappy socket than teach people not to trip over cables strung wildly around where they don't belong?
 

Offline b_force

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2022, 09:33:24 pm »
Even a table lamp with an es lamp base?
What is the question here?

Any lamp fixture has to be grounded (and therefore connected to a ground), any lamp base is either grounded or double insulated?
A regular light bulb doesn't care, a modern LED bulb also doesn't care?

Offline Monkeh

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2022, 09:34:43 pm »
Even a table lamp with an es lamp base?
What is the question here?

Any lamp fixture has to be grounded (and therefore connected to a ground), any lamp base is either grounded or double insulated?
A regular light bulb doesn't care, a modern LED bulb also doesn't care?

It's not very double insulated when you're screwing in the lamp.
 

Offline b_force

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #73 on: October 22, 2022, 09:42:05 pm »
Because they have been in use for over 100 years and people just know not to touch the prongs.
I find it very hard to believe if that is just a personal subject thought, or something actually being considered?
For the last one, I hope not, because from a bigger perspective, that is extremely poor argumentation.

Most schuko sockets used to be also totally open (as in, one could put a pen, or metal object in it).
I forget when it was introduced, but since a few years a "child safety" little press cap inside the sockets in mandatory by standards.
I absolutely hate them (also remove them on my own bench), but I totally get why it became mandatory from a bigger picture.
Before people also knew very well that it was not safe to put a metal object inside those things and it also very rarely happened.

In this case it's a cost vs hazard analyses.
It's not if it very rarely happens, it's about the issues that are being created WHEN it happens.
For any exposed pins, there is no excuse for. 115Vac or not, that doesn't matter.
Some other wire or something else could get stuck in between (I have seen it), and create a spark or something that starts to smolder.
I really fail to see and understand with any kind of logic why flimsy hanging plugs are a feature, I am really sorry.
Mostly because the other end is meant for this.

What people did in AUS and NZ  was sensible to this, just add a insulating sleeve to the pins.
Easy to implement, very cost effective, and will prevent any major issues.

Offline TimFox

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #74 on: October 22, 2022, 09:45:49 pm »
Here is an American plug with which I am impressed.
Unfortunately, it is not at all common, and this is the only example I have seen.
It is a molded 3-prong plug for US 120 V service, at the end of the attached cord for a relatively modern toaster (that has no internet connection).
Note the finger hole that makes it very easy to safely unplug the cord from the wall socket, thus removing the temptation to pull on the cord.
 
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