Author Topic: [YouTube]: American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design  (Read 14868 times)

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Offline b_force

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #75 on: October 22, 2022, 09:52:22 pm »
Even a table lamp with an es lamp base?
What is the question here?

Any lamp fixture has to be grounded (and therefore connected to a ground), any lamp base is either grounded or double insulated?
A regular light bulb doesn't care, a modern LED bulb also doesn't care?

It's not very double insulated when you're screwing in the lamp.
Yes it is, once it is screwed.

Technically speaking one has to call a capable person (like an electrician or licensed handy man), to replace those.
In practice this obviously never happens, but that doesn't matter from a standards point of view.

For those lamp fittings with just a simple two prong cable with a small bulb, it is impossible to touch or reach the metal threat of the lamp receptacle. 
Which is also a form of double insulation.

But it does raise an interesting question or point about those full E27 bulbs standing lamps
I guess one has to follow the manual, which means disconnecting the lamp, remove the bulb, install new bulb and connect the lamp again.
Otherwise there is risk of being zapped. I have actually never thought (and cared) about it to be very honest.

With fixed lamp fittings, the Life and Neutral have to be connected according standards, so in that case it's never an issue.
The default standard procedure there, is to switch of the breaker/fuse first and than replace the bulb.

Offline b_force

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #76 on: October 22, 2022, 09:54:56 pm »
thus removing the temptation to pull on the cord.
(Attachment Link)
But increasing the temptation for kids to unplug chords  ???
Which creates all kinds of other hazards.

A schuko has a grip on the sides for this btw
(well some do)

Offline Monkeh

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #77 on: October 22, 2022, 10:14:44 pm »
Even a table lamp with an es lamp base?
What is the question here?

Any lamp fixture has to be grounded (and therefore connected to a ground), any lamp base is either grounded or double insulated?
A regular light bulb doesn't care, a modern LED bulb also doesn't care?

It's not very double insulated when you're screwing in the lamp.
Yes it is, once it is screwed.

So "no, it isn't".

Quote
Technically speaking one has to call a capable person (like an electrician or licensed handy man), to replace those.

 :-DD
 

Online IanB

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #78 on: October 22, 2022, 10:31:33 pm »
It is a molded 3-prong plug for US 120 V service, at the end of the attached cord for a relatively modern toaster (that has no internet connection).

I am surprised it is a three prong plug. Every small kitchen appliance I have encountered so far has only had a two prong plug on it.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2022, 10:45:15 pm »
OK in 1984 I was 1.....

The early '80s was the best time to be 1, so I'm told.

Wait. What?
iratus parum formica
 

Offline b_force

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #80 on: October 22, 2022, 10:47:31 pm »
Even a table lamp with an es lamp base?
What is the question here?

Any lamp fixture has to be grounded (and therefore connected to a ground), any lamp base is either grounded or double insulated?
A regular light bulb doesn't care, a modern LED bulb also doesn't care?

It's not very double insulated when you're screwing in the lamp.
Yes it is, once it is screwed.

So "no, it isn't".

Quote
Technically speaking one has to call a capable person (like an electrician or licensed handy man), to replace those.

 :-DD
What's so funny?

That is actually the case in a lot of places/countries?

Offline Monkeh

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #81 on: October 22, 2022, 10:48:59 pm »
What's so funny?

That is actually the case in a lot of places/countries?

Not being allowed to change a lightbulb by yourself? That is, in fact, hilarious, depressing, and stupid in equal measure.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: [YouTube]: American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #82 on: October 22, 2022, 10:58:55 pm »
How many bond traders does it take to change a light bulb?
 

Offline james_s

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #83 on: October 23, 2022, 01:23:27 am »
It is a molded 3-prong plug for US 120 V service, at the end of the attached cord for a relatively modern toaster (that has no internet connection).

I am surprised it is a three prong plug. Every small kitchen appliance I have encountered so far has only had a two prong plug on it.

My toaster oven, microwave and refrigerator all have 3 prong plugs. Smaller stuff like toasters, hand mixers, popcorn poppers and stuff like that are normally 2 prong.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #84 on: October 23, 2022, 01:25:40 am »
Even a table lamp with an es lamp base?
What is the question here?

Any lamp fixture has to be grounded (and therefore connected to a ground), any lamp base is either grounded or double insulated?
A regular light bulb doesn't care, a modern LED bulb also doesn't care?

It's not very double insulated when you're screwing in the lamp.
Yes it is, once it is screwed.

Technically speaking one has to call a capable person (like an electrician or licensed handy man), to replace those.
In practice this obviously never happens, but that doesn't matter from a standards point of view.

For those lamp fittings with just a simple two prong cable with a small bulb, it is impossible to touch or reach the metal threat of the lamp receptacle. 
Which is also a form of double insulation.

But it does raise an interesting question or point about those full E27 bulbs standing lamps
I guess one has to follow the manual, which means disconnecting the lamp, remove the bulb, install new bulb and connect the lamp again.
Otherwise there is risk of being zapped. I have actually never thought (and cared) about it to be very honest.

With fixed lamp fittings, the Life and Neutral have to be connected according standards, so in that case it's never an issue.
The default standard procedure there, is to switch of the breaker/fuse first and than replace the bulb.

I don't think I've ever seen a portable lamp with a grounded cord on it. It doesn't matter though, ES or BC, if you remove the lamp you've got a live exposed contact in the socket. The solution is to teach people not to stick anything in a light socket except for a bulb, and ideally unplug the lamp or turn off the wall switch before doing it.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #85 on: October 23, 2022, 01:27:37 am »
best  come to the uk and have a look at our enhanced safety lamp holder,with the lamp out theres no power to the pins.

I've been to the UK and I have some light sockets I got from there, I confess I've never tried sticking my finger in one that was energized to see if it would shock me. How does the mechanism work? Is it a standard feature?
 

Online coppice

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #86 on: October 23, 2022, 01:34:34 am »
best  come to the uk and have a look at our enhanced safety lamp holder,with the lamp out theres no power to the pins.

I've been to the UK and I have some light sockets I got from there, I confess I've never tried sticking my finger in one that was energized to see if it would shock me. How does the mechanism work? Is it a standard feature?
It doesn't. I assume he's messing about. When you remove a bayonet lamp the exposed pins are live.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #87 on: October 23, 2022, 02:41:37 am »
best  come to the uk and have a look at our enhanced safety lamp holder,with the lamp out theres no power to the pins.

I've been to the UK and I have some light sockets I got from there, I confess I've never tried sticking my finger in one that was energized to see if it would shock me. How does the mechanism work? Is it a standard feature?
It doesn't. I assume he's messing about. When you remove a bayonet lamp the exposed pins are live.

No, they're actually a thing, they integrate a rotary switch into the body.

https://docs.rs-online.com/8b74/0900766b813fbb9b.pdf
 

Online themadhippy

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Re: [YouTube]: American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #88 on: October 23, 2022, 02:45:44 am »
Quote
It doesn't. I assume he's messing about. When you remove a bayonet lamp the exposed pins are live.
why would i be messing about? just because you haven't seen them dont  mean they dont exist.
first google hit and  ,https://www.discount-electrical.co.uk/product.php/380562925/ashley-624sel212-9-kleva-white-t2-rated-safety-enhanced-pendant-set-complete-with-9-inch-flex-short-skirt---lampholder
if you read the specifications
Quote
Safety ceiling products are designed to make life easy for you. When the lamp is removed from the lamp holder body the power is automatically disconnected at the contacts - ensuring that there is no risk of access to live parts.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #89 on: October 23, 2022, 02:52:44 am »
It is a molded 3-prong plug for US 120 V service, at the end of the attached cord for a relatively modern toaster (that has no internet connection).

I am surprised it is a three prong plug. Every small kitchen appliance I have encountered so far has only had a two prong plug on it.

My toaster oven, microwave and refrigerator all have 3 prong plugs. Smaller stuff like toasters, hand mixers, popcorn poppers and stuff like that are normally 2 prong.

All of my kitchen appliances with metal exteriors, including large appliances, such as refrigerators, and the small appliances such as mixer, toaster, and coffee grinder, have three-prong plugs.  The small appliances with two-prong (polarized) plugs are double-insulated, with plastic exteriors.
 

Online vk6zgo

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #90 on: October 23, 2022, 03:19:05 am »
Even a table lamp with an es lamp base?
What is the question here?

Any lamp fixture has to be grounded (and therefore connected to a ground), any lamp base is either grounded or double insulated?
A regular light bulb doesn't care, a modern LED bulb also doesn't care?

The threaded part of an ES lamp socket is part of the wiring of the lamp circuit, & cannot be grounded.
Depending on how the connections are made to the socket, it could be Neutral or Active.

If the light switch is inadvertently wired in the Neutral line, & the socket transposed, the threaded part is still "hot" when off.

In the Bayonet cap lamps used for house lighting in Oz, both the  Active & Neutral contacts are insulated from the metal part of the light bulb.
Ideally, the metal part of the socket would be grounded, but that is AFAIK not done---in any case, many modern sockets make that part out of plastic, as it doesn't need to be metal.
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #91 on: October 23, 2022, 03:34:30 am »
What's so funny?

That is actually the case in a lot of places/countries?

Not being allowed to change a lightbulb by yourself? That is, in fact, hilarious, depressing, and stupid in equal measure.

Seeing how some people are clueless of some stuff that is not twitter rants and celebrity's gossip I would not even task them into connecting a plug to an outlet...
 

Online IanB

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #92 on: October 23, 2022, 05:04:57 am »
It is a molded 3-prong plug for US 120 V service, at the end of the attached cord for a relatively modern toaster (that has no internet connection).

I am surprised it is a three prong plug. Every small kitchen appliance I have encountered so far has only had a two prong plug on it.

My toaster oven, microwave and refrigerator all have 3 prong plugs. Smaller stuff like toasters, hand mixers, popcorn poppers and stuff like that are normally 2 prong.

All of my kitchen appliances with metal exteriors, including large appliances, such as refrigerators, and the small appliances such as mixer, toaster, and coffee grinder, have three-prong plugs.  The small appliances with two-prong (polarized) plugs are double-insulated, with plastic exteriors.

That's interesting. I have a toaster and two kettles with metal exteriors and two prong plugs. That's why I made the comment, and said "small" kitchen appliances. Refrigerator and microwave do indeed have three prong plugs.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #93 on: October 23, 2022, 10:13:09 am »

This is precisely why strain reliefs fail, and is a practice which encourages unnecessary wear and tear and increases the chance of a fault in the plug or socket.

Yeh, maybe. But in my time, I've never actually seen a plug fail in this manner. They are extremely robust. That's not to say it doesn't occur, but it's rare.

A clean, low (physical) resistance break is far less likely to result in damage to a plug or socket. Even if it's unintentional (like you moving a vacuum cleaner just that bit too far), I'd rather just have it shut off because the plug was pulled as opposed to damaging pins or the wall socket itself.
 

Online coppice

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #94 on: October 23, 2022, 02:21:14 pm »
best  come to the uk and have a look at our enhanced safety lamp holder,with the lamp out theres no power to the pins.

I've been to the UK and I have some light sockets I got from there, I confess I've never tried sticking my finger in one that was energized to see if it would shock me. How does the mechanism work? Is it a standard feature?
It doesn't. I assume he's messing about. When you remove a bayonet lamp the exposed pins are live.

No, they're actually a thing, they integrate a rotary switch into the body.

https://docs.rs-online.com/8b74/0900766b813fbb9b.pdf
There have long been some niche products like that. You made it sounds like bayonet lamps are safe. The vast majority are not.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #95 on: October 23, 2022, 02:29:53 pm »
It is a molded 3-prong plug for US 120 V service, at the end of the attached cord for a relatively modern toaster (that has no internet connection).

I am surprised it is a three prong plug. Every small kitchen appliance I have encountered so far has only had a two prong plug on it.

My toaster oven, microwave and refrigerator all have 3 prong plugs. Smaller stuff like toasters, hand mixers, popcorn poppers and stuff like that are normally 2 prong.

All of my kitchen appliances with metal exteriors, including large appliances, such as refrigerators, and the small appliances such as mixer, toaster, and coffee grinder, have three-prong plugs.  The small appliances with two-prong (polarized) plugs are double-insulated, with plastic exteriors.

That's interesting. I have a toaster and two kettles with metal exteriors and two prong plugs. That's why I made the comment, and said "small" kitchen appliances. Refrigerator and microwave do indeed have three prong plugs.

My former classic toaster did have a two-prong plug before it was retired after 60 years of service (obtained from a parent).  The modern replacement also has a metal body, and is one of my countertop small appliances with a three-prong plug.  For the plastic-cased double-insulated small appliances, I don't know where the third wire would be connected.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #96 on: October 23, 2022, 02:42:04 pm »
best  come to the uk and have a look at our enhanced safety lamp holder,with the lamp out theres no power to the pins.

I've been to the UK and I have some light sockets I got from there, I confess I've never tried sticking my finger in one that was energized to see if it would shock me. How does the mechanism work? Is it a standard feature?
It doesn't. I assume he's messing about. When you remove a bayonet lamp the exposed pins are live.

No, they're actually a thing, they integrate a rotary switch into the body.

https://docs.rs-online.com/8b74/0900766b813fbb9b.pdf
There have long been some niche products like that. You made it sounds like bayonet lamps are safe. The vast majority are not.

No, he made it sound like there's a product on the market with safety features.
 

Online PlainName

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Re: [YouTube]: American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #97 on: October 23, 2022, 02:57:31 pm »
What are the holes in the US prongs for? Are they for ball bearings to drop in and retain the plug? I presume they're not so some kid can bolt some wires to them...

If they are part of a retaining mechanism, shouldn't that mitigate against them falling out of the socket, but still allow them to pop out if the cable is snagged?
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: [YouTube]; American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #98 on: October 23, 2022, 03:20:32 pm »

I'm fully aware the fuse has nothing to do with protecting the equipment.  However, the fuse also protects the plug and by extension the socket as well, and the BS1363 plug and socket is not rated to exceed 13 amps, therefore it is still required with 4mm^2 cable.  I can tell you having used a 10 amp electric car charger for some time on a BS1363 socket/plug that they don't like extended high current operation and begin to overheat,  a safe limit is around 8 amps. The idea of 32 amps being OK with the right cable is farcical.
The irony is that a lot of the heat in a heavily loaded 13A plug comes from the fuse, so on balance it may actually be safer overall to use an unfused 13A plug for a 10A car charger.

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Online themadhippy

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Re: [YouTube]: American is impressed by sensible British mains plug design
« Reply #99 on: October 23, 2022, 03:54:20 pm »
Quote
There have long been some niche products like that.
Not even niche,available from all good electrical wholesalers,nor that new, i first discovered them in the mid 90's , but if your  not playing with the stuff most days you may be excused for thinking that.They do have 1 minor down fall ,but that don't effect the end user,you need  another  adaptor in your testing kit as just probing the contacts dont work
 


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