008004 - smaller than 01005

[ovnr]

metric screws

FTFY.

[Corporate666]

I wonder if, at some point, these types of components will be more economically embedded in the PCB as part of the fabrication process?  Very fre people are going to have the tools to place these types of things, but if there were some sort of "inkjet" type printer that could dispense an amount of resist material to form traces, then you could order your board with the various resistances and capacitances (and inductances) you need printed into the PCB and make life a lot easier.

Probably print transistors in too?

[Phaedrus]

Pretty sure PCB-embedded resistors are already a thing. Not sure about capacitors or transistors.

[T3sl4co1l]

I wonder if, at some point, these types of components will be more economically embedded in the PCB as part of the fabrication process?  Very fre people are going to have the tools to place these types of things, but if there were some sort of "inkjet" type printer that could dispense an amount of resist material to form traces, then you could order your board with the various resistances and capacitances (and inductances) you need printed into the PCB and make life a lot easier.

Probably print transistors in too?

I thought it would be pretty neat to have a "3D printing" sort of process that handles glass composites (like FR4 and related materials), solid metals (build-up, electroplate, laminate-and-etch, etc.), and electromagnetically 'dense' composites (i.e., ferroelectric or ferromagnetic loaded).  Placing chip components inside such a construction would probably be easy.  You could not only build a very compact, dense circuit board, but do a lot of filtering and power handling without ever touching a discrete capacitor or inductor: even though the composites will have relatively low permeability/permittivity, it will still be enough for basic purposes.  40 pole Bessel filter to "brick-wall" your ADC input?  No problem, it's just a bunch of tracks and goop!

Main drawback I think, such a process would be incredibly slow and expensive, at least unless it became a massively mainstream process.  The performance or density wouldn't quite be enough to justify it, even for cost-no-object projects.  So, Catch-22...

Tim

[sacherjj]

I wonder if, at some point, these types of components will be more economically embedded in the PCB as part of the fabrication process?

At the APEX show, I learned quite a bit from some PCB fab guys.  Many are now using a fixed resistance layer.  It replaces a copper layer and allows you to imbed series termination resistors as the actual trace, with a resistance given by trace width and length.

[tsmith35]

Yeah, the future is definitely well on its way. I wonder how long before 3D printed boards & components are integrated (printegrated?) into the devices they control...

[Corporate666]

Pretty sure PCB-embedded resistors are already a thing. Not sure about capacitors or transistors.

There are embedded resistors (and caps - not sure about inductors), but I believe they are items that are physically placed on the layers during the fab process and I think it's still a very high-end process that only a few fab shops can do.  I was thinking instead of some sort of printing process, either like a screen print or inkjet (selectively deposited) where PCB designers would be able to either spec the resistance/capacitance of an individual trace, or it could just be something we would add to our layer data so that instead of discrete larger components performing these functions, it could just become a commonplace part of any PCB fab. 

Then again, I am not sure how embedded components are handled now - anyone here done a board with embedded R/C parts?  I'd be curious what software was used, what the physical size of the parts are, and what special voodoo magic is involved?

[Kjelt]

Well we would need a very precisely controlled robotarm with vacuumtip for placement in our hobbyenvironment, who's gonna kickstart one 

[digsys]

I had setup for a small production run a while ago, with 100s of SOT23s, TSSOPs, 0402s etc - and suddenly let out a HUGE sneeze
into the tray !! Had to pick out the parts one by one with tweezers and head mounted magnifier !!
I got most back PLUS app 50% more - that turned out to be fly poo, dead flea parts, sand and various machining dust.
Ended up cutting up the carpet and polishing back to the wooden floor. NEVER EVER had that happen with valves !!

[6E5]

I'm very worried that over the next 30 years, through hole components will become rare and expensive. I'll stop using those in hobby projects over my dead body, SMD is just a headache. And don't get me started on DIP ICs. I'll go down as low as SOC, and don't get me started on BGA...


In short, I love through holes and DIPs

[tszaboo]

Pretty sure PCB-embedded resistors are already a thing. Not sure about capacitors or transistors.

There are embedded resistors (and caps - not sure about inductors), but I believe they are items that are physically placed on the layers during the fab process and I think it's still a very high-end process that only a few fab shops can do.  I was thinking instead of some sort of printing process, either like a screen print or inkjet (selectively deposited) where PCB designers would be able to either spec the resistance/capacitance of an individual trace, or it could just be something we would add to our layer data so that instead of discrete larger components performing these functions, it could just become a commonplace part of any PCB fab. 

Then again, I am not sure how embedded components are handled now - anyone here done a board with embedded R/C parts?  I'd be curious what software was used, what the physical size of the parts are, and what special voodoo magic is involved?

That exist. Even Dave found it in a 20 year old something, and everyone was surprised why would anyone use that technology.

[SeanB]

Microwave parts are basically shaped copper parts, and cheap calculators and cash registers use printed resistors to save cost.

[FJV]

May need to think up an assembly robot to continue hobby on this size scale.

[MatCat]

I'm very worried that over the next 30 years, through hole components will become rare and expensive. I'll stop using those in hobby projects over my dead body, SMD is just a headache. And don't get me started on DIP ICs. I'll go down as low as SOC, and don't get me started on BGA...


In short, I love through holes and DIPs

I don't understand why so many people are against SMD, It's not like 0603 and bigger is going anywhere, and a TSSOP is easier to solder then a DIP so to me the old fogey view that DIP and PTH and giant projects are the only way for a hobbyist to be happy is baloney. 

[codeboy2k]

I'm an old fogey.  Through holes and dip are garbage to me now   I'm much happier with SMD and soldering from the top, rather then bending leads, putting them in holes, flipping the board over trying to hold it so it doesn't fall out, and trying to put a little bend in the leads so it stays..

I've had 30 years of soldering through holes... I like SMD much, much, better...

[sacherjj]

I like SMD to a point.  When your resistor shoots across the room, because you didn't have the tweezers just right when you applied pressure, it gets annoying.

I just wish I could use some lead.  Just a little lead.  I was trying to do all my prototyping in lead-free to get used to it.  Just finished soldering on a tiny reset switch between a test pad and ground.  Couldn't get one connection to go.  Cleaning, flux, nothing.  Pulled out my roll of 63/37.  First try.  I miss that stuff.

[MatCat]

I like SMD to a point.  When your resistor shoots across the room, because you didn't have the tweezers just right when you applied pressure, it gets annoying.

I just wish I could use some lead.  Just a little lead.  I was trying to do all my prototyping in lead-free to get used to it.  Just finished soldering on a tiny reset switch between a test pad and ground.  Couldn't get one connection to go.  Cleaning, flux, nothing.  Pulled out my roll of 63/37.  First try.  I miss that stuff.

You could use lead if you wanted (unless your selling to the EU market...)

[sacherjj]

I like SMD to a point.  When your resistor shoots across the room, because you didn't have the tweezers just right when you applied pressure, it gets annoying.

I just wish I could use some lead.  Just a little lead.  I was trying to do all my prototyping in lead-free to get used to it.  Just finished soldering on a tiny reset switch between a test pad and ground.  Couldn't get one connection to go.  Cleaning, flux, nothing.  Pulled out my roll of 63/37.  First try.  I miss that stuff.

You could use lead if you wanted (unless your selling to the EU market...)

We will be distributing worldwide.

[codeboy2k]

You can still prototype with lead.  Just manufacture with lead-free .

[6E5]

I'm very worried that over the next 30 years, through hole components will become rare and expensive. I'll stop using those in hobby projects over my dead body, SMD is just a headache. And don't get me started on DIP ICs. I'll go down as low as SOC, and don't get me started on BGA...


In short, I love through holes and DIPs

I don't understand why so many people are against SMD, It's not like 0603 and bigger is going anywhere, and a TSSOP is easier to solder then a DIP so to me the old fogey view that DIP and PTH and giant projects are the only way for a hobbyist to be happy is baloney.

Sure, for final versions SMDs are ok, and I sometimes find myself using them, but when you do some physical prototyping, through hole is the way to go. You can only get so far in SPICE.

If someone could figure out how to make a SMD breadboard, and make it easy to use as a traditional type, maybe I'll change my mind.

[Kjelt]

Sure, for final versions SMDs are ok, and I sometimes find myself using them, but when you do some physical prototyping, through hole is the way to go. You can only get so far in SPICE.

There are a lot of ic's that are no longer even sold in through hole versions and that need some sort of ground plane. So if you look at our engineers they use a copperplate or blank pcb and solder everything on there with teflon wires in 3D even the smd chips (for the extreme small ones they use prototype boards). But as soon as possible they start with real pcb's to start the EMC process. Four versions later they are finished.

So for hobbieists it is already a giant leap that since a couple of years pcb prototyping is in the very affordable region (<$20 for 3 pieces) but the only annoyance is the shipping time and costs (multiples of the order costs if you want it reliable and fast, or weeks of time if you want it cheap).
So the next step would be to have these cheap pcb prototyping firms in each country with local shipping, I keep on hoping 

[KJDS]

So the next step would be to have these cheap pcb prototyping firms in each country with local shipping, I keep on hoping 

pcbtrain in the UK provide sensible service at reasonable rates.

[AlfBaz]

Sure, for final versions SMDs are ok, and I sometimes find myself using them, but when you do some physical prototyping, through hole is the way to go. You can only get so far in SPICE.

If someone could figure out how to make a SMD breadboard, and make it easy to use as a traditional type, maybe I'll change my mind.

I use to have a good setup to make my own pcb's and have to say that going to smd was the best thing ever as I didn't have to work around not having the facilities for plated through holes. At most all I had to do was refrain from placing vias under components.

...and now with reflow ovens and cheap stencils...

[scientist]

10 copies of a 2"x2" 2 layer board for $10 doesn't even make that prospect particularly attractive anymore. What is the world coming to?

[codeboy2k]

10 copies of a 2"x2" 2 layer board for $10 doesn't even make that prospect particularly attractive anymore. What is the world coming to?

Agreed.

I used to make my own boards in the past, but not anymore.  I rarely need a board right now, so I can wait for the turnaround from China

It just makes more sense; the quality is better than I could ever make, there is no need for me to keep chemicals around, and the expense of the entire setup is rarely, if ever, cheaper than China now.