Author Topic: 140 million liters of water down the drain  (Read 18237 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2014, 03:40:35 am »
The public are not generally complete idiots, they are generally ignorant.

True, but unfortunately all too many transition into being idiots when confronted with the facts which do not persuade them.
* Idiot is defined as sub-normal intelligence. So I'd say anyone who can't apply reason and facts to situations would fit nicely into that category.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2014, 03:47:07 am »
This is a typical analysis of a Sydney water supply (source only, pipes not included)
https://www.sydneywater.com.au/web/groups/publicwebcontent/documents/document/zgrf/mdq0/~edisp/dd_044731.pdf
and for a total wank:
http://tapsydney.com.au/
and for the full info:
http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc/publications/attachments/eh52_aust_drinking_water_guidelines_update_131216.pdf
Page 189 has chlorine.
They even pump ferric chloride into the system (the stuff you use for PCB etching)
Page 1161
 

Online IanB

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2014, 04:06:34 am »
They even pump ferric chloride into the system (the stuff you use for PCB etching)

Ferric chloride is a flocculant, used to clarify water and to remove harmful impurities. Most of the added iron is removed downstream by filtration (which was its job when added), but even if not removed iron is an essential nutrient and is not particularly harmful in small amounts.

When you get worried about water purity, you just have to watch your pet dog drinking out of a puddle on the ground and then consider how soft and feeble we humans have become...
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2014, 04:57:05 am »
Here I knew the park manager at the local supply dam. You really do not want to know what is in the raw water, they would get worried when the cholera count was over 10 per litre of water. They also did not recommend drinking the raw water as well. He is a diving instructor as well, and would dive in the dam, but the water is so turbid that he used to give black diving classes there, at 10m depth you could not see a million candlepower torch unless you held it less than 50cm from your mask. There are at least a dozen outboard motors there that are marked with an approximate location, but which cannot be found unless you drain the whole dam. They did find the Hilux that went down the slipway though by accident, it was a little big and straight so was easy to find.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2014, 05:57:58 am »
Also,TV shows don't help,where Jack Bauer,or someone similar stops a terrorist from dropping a tiny vial of poison or bacteria into an huge dam.

Maybe it's a  homoeopathic poison?

Or an actual biohazard? Bacteria reproduce incredibly fast, and urine doesn't. I wouldn't be happy drinking water contaminated with anthrax or Ebola.

Most such bacteria are not at all happy away from a congenial host,like you,me,or an animal.

Extreme dilution in water which contains natural & added chemicals which are noxious to them,is unlikely to promote rapid,(if any),growth.

Chemicals like Chlorine are remarkably effective at killing bacteria----its mainly inside us where you can't use them (for fear of killing us),that we have a problem!
 

Offline Kremmen

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2014, 06:55:52 am »
This is a typical analysis of a Sydney water supply (source only, pipes not included)
https://www.sydneywater.com.au/web/groups/publicwebcontent/documents/document/zgrf/mdq0/~edisp/dd_044731.pdf
and for a total wank:
http://tapsydney.com.au/
and for the full info:
http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc/publications/attachments/eh52_aust_drinking_water_guidelines_update_131216.pdf
Page 189 has chlorine.
They even pump ferric chloride into the system (the stuff you use for PCB etching)
Page 1161
Quote from the Helsinki Waterworks website: (note they mention ferrous sulphate which to me sounds more plausible as feric chloride would likely eat into the metallic piping...
"Drinking water production at the
Pitkäkoski and Vanhakaupunki plants
The raw water from Lake Päijänne is treated at the water treatment plants in Pitkäkoski and Vanhakaupunki in order to obtain clean domestic water. The water treatment processes of the two water treatment plants are the same.
First, the humus contained in the raw water is precipitated with ferrous sulphate, and the resulting precipitate is stirred and mixed in order to improve clarification. After this, the precipitate is separated from the water in settling tanks and sand filters.
Any microbes in the water are killed with ozone, which also improves the odour and taste of the water. Then, carbon dioxide is added to the water. This increases the alkalinity of the water, thus reducing corrosion.

The remaining organic matter is removed by means of activated carbon filtration, after which the water is disinfected with UV light. Finally, bound chlorine, i.e., chloramine, is added to the water in order to limit microbial growth in the distribution network. The pH of the water is adjusted with lime water, and the alkalinity is regulated with carbon dioxide."


Recent water quality analysis - sorry,  in Finnish but anyone with a any chemistry knowledge will easily identify elements from their periodic table lettercodes. http://www.hsy.fi/vesi/juomavesi/vedenlaatu/Sivut/vedenlaatutaulukko.aspx
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Online IanB

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2014, 08:54:10 am »
Ferric chloride is not added in any concentrations that would corrode piping. Also just enough is added to cause the precipitation reaction and it gets removed with the precipitate, so it doesn't stay in the water after it's added. Ferric chloride works a little more efficiently as a clarifying agent than ferrous sulphate but they both perform essentially the same function.

I'm confused about carbon dioxide "increasing the alkalinity" of the water. Is this a mis-translation? Carbon dioxide is an acid gas and will decrease alkalinity/increase acidity. I think perhaps they increase the pH with lime water and decrease the pH with CO2. That would give them control in both directions and would fit the chemistry better.
 

Offline Artlav

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2014, 09:31:44 am »
Why is it called drinking water, btw?
Isn't it the water that would come out of the faucets?

Or are there separate faucets for drinking in Portland?
 

Offline Kremmen

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2014, 10:38:08 am »
Ferric chloride is not added in any concentrations that would corrode piping. Also just enough is added to cause the precipitation reaction and it gets removed with the precipitate, so it doesn't stay in the water after it's added. Ferric chloride works a little more efficiently as a clarifying agent than ferrous sulphate but they both perform essentially the same function.

I'm confused about carbon dioxide "increasing the alkalinity" of the water. Is this a mis-translation? Carbon dioxide is an acid gas and will decrease alkalinity/increase acidity. I think perhaps they increase the pH with lime water and decrease the pH with CO2. That would give them control in both directions and would fit the chemistry better.
Fair enough, just my gut feling - it is true that it would be quite a soup if FeCl was aded in PCB etching concentrations :)

As to carbon dioxide - no mistranslation, the same wording can be found on the original Finnish page. In fact the case is not that simple. Some dissolved CO2 in water turns partly into carbonic acid H2CO3 and from there it dissociates at least partially into ionic forms HCO3- (the bicarbonate ion) and CO32- (carbonate ion) the proportions depending on the original pH of the water. The bicarbonate ion at least is an amphoteric compound that can act either as an acid or a base, depending on the acidity of the original solution. So i think they knew what they were writing. At the same time there is a diagram of the process here: http://www.hsy.fi/vesi/Documents/Juomavesi_ja_veden_laatu/Vedenpuhdistusprosessi_HSY.pdf describing how they add CO2 ("Hiilidioksidi") and lime water ("Kalkkivesi") as the last stages of the treatment, in that order.
Nothing sings like a kilovolt.
Dr W. Bishop
 

Offline electrolux

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2014, 10:49:36 am »
Give it to the farmers. They'll appreciate all the water with a trace of "fertilizer" added...
Yeah, fertilizer Plus drowning cows
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Offline electrolux

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2014, 10:52:04 am »
Much better to filter it all. If that's not possible drain it away I DONT DRINK PEE.
The funniest thing about this signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything its too late to stop reading it.
 

Offline StonentTopic starter

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2014, 11:32:10 am »
Much better to filter it all. If that's not possible drain it away I DONT DRINK PEE.

Urea molecules at 3 parts per billion might be tough to filter.
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Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2014, 11:44:46 am »
Much better to filter it all. If that's not possible drain it away I DONT DRINK PEE.
   :-DD  So you think.  You'd be surprised what you drink.  And you eat poop as well. But maybe you didn't want to know that.
 

Offline con-f-use

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2014, 11:46:28 am »
Much better to filter it all. If that's not possible drain it away I DONT DRINK PEE.
You drank your own pee in your mothers womb. Since then you drank an average of a 1l a year.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2020, 07:28:09 am »
What do they think public swimming pool water contains?
 
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Offline BravoV

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2020, 07:46:40 am »
Thread necro by mod.  :-DD
 
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2020, 07:55:14 am »
Thread necro by mod.  :-DD

It popped back up due to a spammer (who is now banned and had his post deleted).

I'll wear it though. Sorry guys!
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2020, 08:27:09 am »
The public are not generally complete idiots, they are generally ignorant.

True, but unfortunately all too many transition into being idiots when confronted with the facts which do not persuade them.
* Idiot is defined as sub-normal intelligence. So I'd say anyone who can't apply reason and facts to situations would fit nicely into that category.

Most people are dopes.

Consider the case where there are two streets to the left of a road, one just after after the other as Driver A is travelling along a road. We will call the streets on the left First Street (nearer the car) and Second Street (the next street further away). Now, Driver A wants to turn left into Second Street, but he signals left too early, prior to First Street. Now Driver B who is in First Street and wants to exit First Street, sees Driver A's signal to turn left, so he proceeds. BANG! A collision has occurred. The cause is twofold: Driver A lacks the intelligence to understand his ambiguity in his signalling can cause a car crash; and Driver B lacks the wisdom to realise indicators are not to be trusted.

A good example intersection is here (corner of Ricketts Road and Blackburn Road, where Driver A is heading North on Blackburn Road intending to turn left onto the Monash Freeway and Driver B is turning left from Ricketts Road onto Blackburn Road). I have observed about eight out of ten people are Driver A's. There are typically a few accidents there every week to to the stupidity of drivers mentioned above, as I observed due to working in a building nearby.
https://www.google.com/maps/search/google+maps/@-37.895357,145.1417133,900m/data=!3m1!1e3

For our American and EU friends, we drive on the left side of the road in Australia, so change "left" to "right" in the above description.
 

Offline MadTux

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2020, 09:56:49 am »
Piss works great as fertilizer, btw. And pissing in a bucket saves like 50% of total water.
Started pissing in a bucket and "watering" my outside plants early this year. My lemon tree looks nicer that ever before now.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2020, 11:18:35 am »
Quote
Isn't that partly why water in most of the US is slightly chlorinated so that things like this don't matter?

In most cities, it's fluorinated with a few ug/L; helps convert the hydroxyapatite in tooth enamel into fluoroapatite, which is a bit more durable. Chlorine is usually what they dump in copious amounts into swimming pools.

Drinking water is chlorinated at the point of supply as a standard measure in treated water systems. You can smell the chlorine if you run fresh water from the tap/faucet at high velocity so it froths up.
why they didn't use O3? (ozone)

A few places do, for initial decontamination. Ozone is so reactive that a few seconds after you add it, it's all used up. Adding chlorine is to protect the water while it is in the distribution system and to allow for it sitting in cold water tanks in people's lofts and so on.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline cdev

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2020, 12:36:59 pm »
(The Vikings?) primitive peoples used to use animal urine for washing battle wounds - somehow they realized before germs were even known to science that it is usually sterile of germs (unless somebody has a UTI) At least much more so than stream or lake or even puddle water which anybody who has  microscope will realize is absolutely teeming with microorganisms.

I'd bet there are several million people in the world that would love to have 140 million liters of water contaminated with nothing more than .5L of urine.

Isn't that partly why water in most of the US is slightly chlorinated so that things like this don't matter?
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online tooki

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2020, 03:19:25 pm »
(The Vikings?) primitive peoples used to use animal urine for washing battle wounds - somehow they realized before germs were even known to science that it is usually sterile of germs (unless somebody has a UTI) At least much more so than stream or lake or even puddle water which anybody who has  microscope will realize is absolutely teeming with microorganisms.

I'd bet there are several million people in the world that would love to have 140 million liters of water contaminated with nothing more than .5L of urine.

Isn't that partly why water in most of the US is slightly chlorinated so that things like this don't matter?
Urine is not sterile. Take your pick of popular or scholarly sources:
http://www.urotoday.com/conference-highlights/aua-2019-annual-meeting/aua-2019-infections-inflammation/112448-aua-2019-urine-is-not-sterile-what-s-next.html
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/turns-out-urine-isnt-actually-sterile-180954809/
https://www.popsci.com/urine-sterile-drinking-pee/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3957746/
https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/gory-details/urine-not-sterile-and-neither-rest-you
 

Offline Sal Ammoniac

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2020, 04:42:53 pm »
Piss works great as fertilizer, btw.

Does it? Back when I had a lawn, I'd always see brown spots after a dog pissed on it.
"That's not even wrong" -- Wolfgang Pauli
 

Offline MadTux

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2020, 10:54:53 pm »
Does it? Back when I had a lawn, I'd always see brown spots after a dog pissed on it.

Might be because of concentration and dogs diet. If dog drinks very little and eats lots of protein/meat, dog urine contains lots of nitrogen, perhaps so much that it's toxic to plants.
Human with a little protein and more water/beer/coke input might have a more plant friendly piss, more dilute with less nitrogen and more phosphorous from coke.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 10:56:39 pm by MadTux »
 

Offline eti

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Re: 140 million liters of water down the drain
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2020, 11:22:44 pm »
They reckon that the water in London has been drunk three times before you get to drink it, keeping processed water in an open holding tank at ground level with no protection at all seems silly as any thing and every thing in the form of contamination can get in.
The Ganges problem is such that it affects not just India but other parts of the world, in the 1970's cooked bones for dogs were being imported from India,then some one found their dog munching on a human bone, it turned out that the company in India was collecting the bone from the Ganges before cooking or drying them in the sun, the importation was stopped by the then Ministry of Agriculture  on the grounds that it could bring foot and mouth into the country.

Only THREE? Do they not realise how long the earth has existed for? I'd say maybe 3 billion times!
 


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