18k for damaged household cable

[strawberry]

isnt that anything upto power meter is owned by power company
dig new cable or repair it, why bring whole property to code(why change something that works)

[tom66]

I don't get the "bringing up to code" thing.  The invoice she showed had line items for plumbing, like checking the kitchen drains and the bathroom faucet.  What would that have to do with the electrics? Even if you had to bring the whole panel up to code, I can't see it costing $18k.  The cable repair should cost a tenth of that too.  I think this poor woman got ripped off on the repair as well as by the negligent contractor.   

[Psi]

Yeah, paying for it outright herself was probably a mistake, but hard to say. It was 'risky' lets put it that way.

If eventually she does get reimbursed for all the 18k she may come out on top with all that extra work done for free.
There was likely more stuff included in that 18k bill that legally needed to be there and any insurance company is going to object to paying for things that didn't actually need to be done. 

I'm not sure how you're supposed to handle this kind of situation in USA, but in NZ there would be free things you could do to force one of the parties to arrange a fix within a reasonable timeframe. Then the two companies can fight it out as to who actually pays later on.

[strawberry]

was accident with electronic power meter . basically voltage sense coils melted and was fined with new power meter and neighborhood power loss bill totaling ~1-2k
because he did some weird wiring experiments(free energy stuff I guess) on his property, TV3 company bring up some 'expert scientist'(clearly can see that he never saw real coil in real life) to back up damaged meter claim
I think it was just faulty meter
I had one that didnt booted but kept  relay engaged

In USA I think they milk insurance. Louis Rossman interview about medics paying ~100 for pair of disposable gloves

[Psi]

Insurance really needs to be done differently.
It needs to be split into to different entities.
So the entity who investigates and decides if your claim is legit and ok to be paid out has no financial interest to avoid paying out.

[jpyeron]

I don't get the "bringing up to code" thing.  The invoice she showed had line items for plumbing, like checking the kitchen drains and the bathroom faucet.  What would that have to do with the electrics? Even if you had to bring the whole panel up to code, I can't see it costing $18k.  The cable repair should cost a tenth of that too.  I think this poor woman got ripped off on the repair as well as by the negligent contractor.   

It looks like a poor printing (note the price and text overlap @ 113 seconds - youtube.com/watch?v=U-veaS6nX_E&t=113s ) from a service aggregator (e.g angies) where those "plumbing" items are just terms of service...

Actual invoice line item details are not shown in the video.

As to the bring up to code, will try to explain a probabilistic scenario. Lets say 1. The utility does not supply the wire, 2. The code requires 200A upgrade when replacing service, 3. The code requires arc change to fault breakers when doing major work (e.g. upgrade panel)


These numbers are based on local supplier costs (Maryland, USA) with small profits and 125$/hr labor rates.

Desc	cost	calc
Electrician to request disconnect	$500.00
Utility disconnect at transformer	$-
Electrician to disconnect from meter box	$500.00
Trenching @125 ft	$2,800.00	125
4/0 AL 2$/ft/conductor @125 ft	$1,000.00	125
2" conduit 30$/10ft @125 + 20 ft	$4,500.00	145
UPGRADE Meter can from 125A to 200A	$600.00
200 Amp Meter socket	$300.00
UPGRADE Main panel 125A to 200A, 30 circuits 150$/circuit	$4,500.00	30
200 Amp panel	$400.00
Convert to arc-fault 75$ each	$1,500.00	20
misc	$1,693.94

[strawberry]

for ground cable 5x4mm^2 ~= 4EUR/m
regular connection 3phase 16A 
basically if you can make electrician to get cable out of power meter you can DIY (usually DIY outcome looks terrible and sometimes unreliable)
~5..10k to build(digging >100m trenches and paperwork) new connection in rural areas

[AVGresponding]

The charge for the 2" conduit doesn't add up, at all. $4500? For ~150 feet of conduit @$30/10ft? Surely that's $450?

[tom66]

Why would they need to dig the whole trench? Could they not just replace the damaged section of cable?

[Gyro]

It's curious that code requires that the service must be upgraded to 200A. Surely as long as the service fuse is appropriately rated, there ought to be no requirement to increase the current availability unless requested by the consumer. Even if the meter socket needs to be updated to support a presumably more modern standardised 200A meter, that wouldn't be an issue for a lower rated service. From what I've seen in various threads over the years, you still have lots of buildings in the US with grandfathered wiring nearing 100 years. It just seems an odd requirement, as it suddenly forces an upgrade of the lower current distribution panel that was presumably still giving resonable service.

Over here, when the network operator replaces a meter, they just screw the existing tails into the new meter and scrupulously avoid touching or even looking at any of the consumer's electrics, just checking the incomming wiring for obvious signs of meter bypassing or tampering. The consumer needs to specifically ask for the service fuse to be increased in rating. Only at that point will they check the gauge of the meter tails and main switch rating of the consumer unit (distribution panel). People have service fues with 60, 80 or 100A, almost at random (aside from large houses or upgrades for EV chargers etc).

[coppice]

I don't get the "bringing up to code" thing.  The invoice she showed had line items for plumbing, like checking the kitchen drains and the bathroom faucet.  What would that have to do with the electrics? Even if you had to bring the whole panel up to code, I can't see it costing $18k.  The cable repair should cost a tenth of that too.  I think this poor woman got ripped off on the repair as well as by the negligent contractor.   

The kitchen drains and bathroom faucet are presumably included for the same reason they would be included in the UK - grounding.

[AVGresponding]

I don't get the "bringing up to code" thing.  The invoice she showed had line items for plumbing, like checking the kitchen drains and the bathroom faucet.  What would that have to do with the electrics? Even if you had to bring the whole panel up to code, I can't see it costing $18k.  The cable repair should cost a tenth of that too.  I think this poor woman got ripped off on the repair as well as by the negligent contractor.   

The kitchen drains and bathroom faucet are presumably included for the same reason they would be included in the UK - grounding.

Under current regs you just have to earth bond gas and water at the incomers, not taps/basins/sinks/drainers etc.

[coppice]

I don't get the "bringing up to code" thing.  The invoice she showed had line items for plumbing, like checking the kitchen drains and the bathroom faucet.  What would that have to do with the electrics? Even if you had to bring the whole panel up to code, I can't see it costing $18k.  The cable repair should cost a tenth of that too.  I think this poor woman got ripped off on the repair as well as by the negligent contractor.   

The kitchen drains and bathroom faucet are presumably included for the same reason they would be included in the UK - grounding.

Under current regs you just have to earth bond gas and water at the incomers, not taps/basins/sinks/drainers etc.

When did they drop the requirement to go through the whole plumbing chain to ensure plastics are not interrupting the earth bond?

[jpyeron]

The charge for the 2" conduit doesn't add up, at all. $4500? For ~150 feet of conduit @$30/10ft? Surely that's $450?

Please check my math. Pretty sure I can multiply.


 150
x 30
====
 000
450
====
4500

[.RC.]

Trenching @125 ft   

Were they trenching for NASA?

That is an insane rate.  I thought even the electrician rates at US$125/hr was a bit rude.   I thought here in Australia (not Austria) was bloody expensive for an electrician, but they are way cheaper then that.

[Monkeh]

The charge for the 2" conduit doesn't add up, at all. $4500? For ~150 feet of conduit @$30/10ft? Surely that's $450?

Please check my math. Pretty sure I can multiply.

And if they were 1ft lengths, you'd be right, but being that they're 10ft..

[jmelson]

MANY years ago, our power went out, first one "phase" then the other.  Typical US residential split-240 V power.  We had had a large water main replaced along the street, and they moved a part of the main to under the sidewalk, replacing the entire sidewalk between our property and the street.  They apoparently nicked the buried power feed, causing the feeder to fail some months later.  We called the power company, they put in a temporary feeder laying on the ground and tied it into our meter box.  later a contractor dug a hole at the bottom of the pole and installed a patch over the burned-out section.
They never even came into our house, and there was no bill for this.  Their patch must have been done well, it has lasted over 20 years.  The only thing they said was that our meter box was badly rusted and some day we would have to have it replaced at our cost.
Jon

[james_s]

It's curious that code requires that the service must be upgraded to 200A. Surely as long as the service fuse is appropriately rated, there ought to be no requirement to increase the current availability unless requested by the consumer. Even if the meter socket needs to be updated to support a presumably more modern standardised 200A meter, that wouldn't be an issue for a lower rated service. From what I've seen in various threads over the years, you still have lots of buildings in the US with grandfathered wiring nearing 100 years. It just seems an odd requirement, as it suddenly forces an upgrade of the lower current distribution panel that was presumably still giving resonable service.

Over here, when the network operator replaces a meter, they just screw the existing tails into the new meter and scrupulously avoid touching or even looking at any of the consumer's electrics, just checking the incomming wiring for obvious signs of meter bypassing or tampering. The consumer needs to specifically ask for the service fuse to be increased in rating. Only at that point will they check the gauge of the meter tails and main switch rating of the consumer unit (distribution panel). People have service fues with 60, 80 or 100A, almost at random (aside from large houses or upgrades for EV chargers etc).

Something doesn't add up here, makes me wonder if it's a case of missing details in the story, or somebody directly involved not understanding the code requirements correctly. When installing a new service panel 200A is the standard in American homes and I think it's the minimum allowed at least in most regions however I've never heard of anyone having to upgrade their panel if they are not adding additional circuits to the house. It's no problem to feed a 125A panel with cables capable of carrying 200A, the main breaker in the panel will limit the current available. There are indeed loads of older panels still in service, I know several people that have older homes with 100 and 125A panels. No requirement to upgrade unless you need more power.

[sleemanj]

The charge for the 2" conduit doesn't add up, at all. $4500? For ~150 feet of conduit @$30/10ft? Surely that's $450?

Please check my math. Pretty sure I can multiply.


 150
x 30
====
 000
450
====
4500

You can multiply, but you needed to divide as well

[boB]

Probably nicked the L1 or L2 hot lines.  Good thing that neutral wasn't clipped.

Just jumper over the broken section.  Carefully of course and turn the house power off first.

Hey, if nobody is going to help ya know ?

boB

[AVGresponding]

I don't get the "bringing up to code" thing.  The invoice she showed had line items for plumbing, like checking the kitchen drains and the bathroom faucet.  What would that have to do with the electrics? Even if you had to bring the whole panel up to code, I can't see it costing $18k.  The cable repair should cost a tenth of that too.  I think this poor woman got ripped off on the repair as well as by the negligent contractor.   

The kitchen drains and bathroom faucet are presumably included for the same reason they would be included in the UK - grounding.

Under current regs you just have to earth bond gas and water at the incomers, not taps/basins/sinks/drainers etc.

When did they drop the requirement to go through the whole plumbing chain to ensure plastics are not interrupting the earth bond?

Hmm, around the time of the 17th edition, with the introduction of mandatory RCDs in most domestic circumstances.

You also appear to be misunderstanding the purpose of the earth bonding; it's to prevent external influences introducing potential into extraneous conductive parts in fault conditions (ie a damaged mains cable in the road putting dangerous voltages on your gas or water pipework), it's not for protecting you from shock hazards due to internal wiring faults.

The 18th edition and amendments have further tightened requirements for RCD/RCBO in domestic installations; it's effectively no longer permitted to not fit them in new installs under any circumstances, as they decided the exceptions were being abused.

[jmelson]

It's curious that code requires that the service must be upgraded to 200A. Surely as long as the service fuse is

Well, the secondary breaker in the current crop of transformers may only be available in 200A rating, so everything downstream needs to be able to handle that current.  Generally, the only protector between the transformer and the main breaker in the panel is in the transformer, and if there is a fault in between those, the results could be pretty spectacular.
Jon

[james_s]

It's curious that code requires that the service must be upgraded to 200A. Surely as long as the service fuse is

Well, the secondary breaker in the current crop of transformers may only be available in 200A rating, so everything downstream needs to be able to handle that current.  Generally, the only protector between the transformer and the main breaker in the panel is in the transformer, and if there is a fault in between those, the results could be pretty spectacular.
Jon

Secondary breaker? Don't the transformers just have a fuse on the primary? The pole mounted sort do, I've never looked inside one of the pad mounted kind that feeds my house. One transformer normally feeds several houses so it will be fused considerably higher than what is needed to supply 200A.

[Homer J Simpson]

It's curious that code requires that the service must be upgraded to 200A. Surely as long as the service fuse is

Well, the secondary breaker in the current crop of transformers may only be available in 200A rating, so everything downstream needs to be able to handle that current.  Generally, the only protector between the transformer and the main breaker in the panel is in the transformer, and if there is a fault in between those, the results could be pretty spectacular.
Jon

Secondary breaker? Don't the transformers just have a fuse on the primary? The pole mounted sort do, I've never looked inside one of the pad mounted kind that feeds my house. One transformer normally feeds several houses so it will be fused considerably higher than what is needed to supply 200A.

[johansen]

There is a lot of selective code interpretation.

The trenching at 22.5$ a foot is cheaper than where i live.
Conduit is overpriced by 10 fold as others pointed out.

And so is the 4/0aluminum... Which does not need to be in conduit anyways.

[Gyro]

Those single end supported secondary connection bars in the pad-mount transformer video look dodgy as hell. From the way they were moving when he was using the spanners reasonably close in to the support, if fully populated with 7 loads I can see them easily bending onto the adjacent bar or snapping off! They would probably be getting more support from the tails than from the transformer bushes.

[jmelson]

Secondary breaker? Don't the transformers just have a fuse on the primary? The pole mounted sort do, I've never looked inside one of the pad mounted kind that feeds my house. One transformer normally feeds several houses so it will be fused considerably higher than what is needed to supply 200A.

I can't answer for other locations, but our utility has a primary fuse that is fairly large (10 - 15 A) at 7200 V to protect the distribution network.  The transformer has a mechanical breaker inside the can that can be operated by a lever on the outside of the can.  That's also a handy way to shut off the LV feeder without having to mess with the HV fuse.
Jon

[james_s]

Those single end supported secondary connection bars in the pad-mount transformer video look dodgy as hell. From the way they were moving when he was using the spanners reasonably close in to the support, if fully populated with 7 loads I can see them easily bending onto the adjacent bar or snapping off! They would probably be getting more support from the tails than from the transformer bushes.

They look a bit weird but you don't tend to hear about these transformers failing and there are millions and millions of them, I know of 6 or 7 on my street alone. The wires themselves will offer a good deal of support, I've installed service panels a couple times and 4/0 aluminum cable is sturdy stuff. Once you bend it into place and terminate it on the bar it will work for you rather than against. It's coming out of the ground so it's going to be firmly anchored and not moving around.

[soldar]

Steve Lehto, the long-winded Youtube lawyer, discussed this case in his channel.

[jpyeron]

 

You can multiply, but you needed to divide as well