Author Topic: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.  (Read 8469 times)

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Offline G7PSK

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220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« on: June 26, 2012, 06:08:08 pm »
The Chinese are planning to build the worlds tallest building at 838 meters high and 220 stories and all in 90 days.

http://www.propertyoverseastoday.com/news_features/chinese-firm-aims-to-build-worldE28099s-tallest-building-in-just-90-days


i wonder how long it will last with all the fake materials that are quite likely to get included in it.
 

Offline bullet308

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2012, 06:18:01 pm »
It would seem to be a viable means of building such a structure. They way they have modularized it actually seems rather overbuilt for the smaller structures I have seen using this method.



This also offers up the prospect of the Chinese being able to do something else that nobody has done before...export prefab skyscrapers to anywhere in the world.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 06:19:45 pm by bullet308 »
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Offline PeteInTexas

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2012, 06:45:04 pm »
This also offers up the prospect of the Chinese being able to do something else that nobody has done before...export prefab skyscrapers to anywhere in the world.

How will it pass local building codes in countries/states that take these things seriously?  Just thinking about earthquake "proofing" in California and Hurrincane hardening in the Gulf Coast.
 

Offline bullet308

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2012, 07:13:06 pm »
You underestimate the quality of Chinese engineering and manufacture. The Chinese collectively can achieve pretty much any level of build quality they care to and that somebody is willing to pay for, from dollar store merchandise to manned spacecraft. If they need to build those modules to meet a specific code, they can buy access to the code just like any other builder and do whatever it requires to meet it.

From what I have seen of their methodology, these buildings have a metric assload of steel in them, all arranged in to tidy, relatively compact boxes that then lock together. I suspect that if they put a proper foundation under it, it will work out fine.
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Offline Bored@Work

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2012, 07:23:08 pm »
There is an upper limit how long it has to last in China.

First, you get 40 or 50 year land leases in China for commercial use (I am too lazy to look up it it was 40 or 50 years).  What happens after your lease expires is not really clear today, so an investor will likely not plan to erect a building that lasts 100 years, but more likely one that lasts 35, 40 years and a bit.

Second, if you build in a boom region in China you probably want to replace a building after 10 to 15 years with something better, higher, more glamorous.

Knowing that limited lifetime of the building you can take shortcuts.
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Offline SeanB

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2012, 07:40:12 pm »
A simple demonstration of assembly line processing. Build it all in separate factories and then bring it together in a single stage of final assembly. Kind of like a vehicle production line, where a chassis will spend a week or more going down the line, but a new one pops off every 20 minutes at the end.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2012, 09:18:29 pm »
Well obviously there is no reason that the Chinese should be any more or less capable in engineering and building than any other nation.
 

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2012, 09:32:38 pm »
Well obviously there is no reason that the Chinese should be any more or less capable in engineering and building than any other nation.

That's what these guys figured!  :)


http://gizmodo.com/5304233/entire-new-13+story-building-tips-over-in-shanghai/gallery/1
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 09:37:49 pm by Uncle Vernon »
 

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2012, 10:49:41 pm »
I am constantly amazed at how they can construct entire buildings in often less time than it takes us EE's to design and build a board.

Dave.
 

Offline digsys

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2012, 11:55:40 pm »
Quote
That's what these guys figured!  :)
STILL looks perfectly usable to me .. just on another plane :-)  Just needs the furnishings redecorated.
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Offline bullet308

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2012, 01:22:35 am »
Obvious problems with the foundation, but look at how friggin' strong that building was to stay intact like that.
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Online Mechatrommer

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2012, 04:33:25 am »
i thought this is about 1001 nights "stories". looked at the pic. yeah its friggin impossible for a building collapsed still intact like that, its an excellent engineering achievement if its a real life, or just overkill usage of materials. no engineers can outsmart nature. the way its tipped either the land is not stable (too "mild" at one side) or landslide from the side pushing the building or the building is not straight up while built. as the last one seems impossible since no idiot engineer can build a building too leaned or excessively "not up straight". now 220 "storeys" in 3 months? nearly 1km tall? let it occupied for 1 year, its another engineering achievement! deserves a "story" in history book, or that crappy "guiness stout" book of record.
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Offline G7PSK

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2012, 07:33:16 am »
i thought this is about 1001 nights "stories". looked at the pic. yeah its friggin impossible for a building collapsed still intact like that, its an excellent engineering achievement if its a real life, or just overkill usage of materials. no engineers can outsmart nature. the way its tipped either the land is not stable (too "mild" at one side) or landslide from the side pushing the building or the building is not straight up while built. as the last one seems impossible since no idiot engineer can build a building too leaned or excessively "not up straight". now 220 "storeys" in 3 months? nearly 1km tall? let it occupied for 1 year, its another engineering achievement! deserves a "story" in history book, or that crappy "guiness stout" book of record.

Another win for technology (auto spell check). There are famous cases where builders have continued to build despite a bad start, most famous of all is in Italy.
 

Offline johnboxall

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2012, 11:51:40 am »
It is 220 prefabricated stories..  like Lego...

Reminds me of the old Krushchev blocks. If something goes wrong, the Chinese can always try and bury the evidence...



from http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/07/25/china-caught-burying-crashed-train-cars-and-the-truth/

Online HackedFridgeMagnet

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2012, 02:18:33 pm »
Quote
Obvious problems with the foundation, but look at how friggin' strong that building was to stay intact like that.
They were my exact thoughts when I saw it a while ago.
I saw some other photos of the same collapse, the piles had no steel reinforcing in them.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2012, 02:46:51 pm »
I seem to remember that block falling some time ago in a typhoon. The building is obviously far to wide and high for its depth and would not take a lot to push over wind wise. Steel in the foundations would just shear or bend in any case in such a scenario.
 

Online HackedFridgeMagnet

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2012, 06:37:31 am »
I'll admit that I know squat about building construction, but I thought the steel in the piles was for it's tensile strength, and that it would help prevent the shearing of the piles.
From memory the piles sheared neatly at about ground level, and I could see no reinforcing in them.

Isn't it normal to put steel reinforcing into concrete piles?

 

Offline T4P

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2012, 07:31:47 am »
Isn't it normal to put steel reinforcing into concrete piles?

At least, outside of china  ;D
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2012, 09:19:23 am »
It is possible that if there was a violent ground slip that the inertia of the building will cause the rebar to shear at the point of separation in the concrete pour if there was no bonding at that point due to a damp proof membrane, I have seen similar in a high wall blown over by the wind where a damp proofing membrane had been used which allowed corrosion to occur on the rebar ties such that the rebar looked like it had been cut. 
 

Online HackedFridgeMagnet

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2012, 11:46:11 am »
Quote
http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=53958
Some discussion.

Here are some other pictures of what seems to be the same building.


 

Offline Architect_1077

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2012, 01:38:10 pm »
Much like in electronic circuits, it all comes down to what the building has been designed to withstand and/or whether or not those specs were followed through during the construction phase. Many things can go wrong in a building, anything from the engineers miscalculating the forces involved to the contractors skimping on material quality during construction, or even unpredictable circumstances.

When it comes to earthquakes, the "forces involved" part is an extremely grey and vast area, simply because earthquakes are very unpredictable forces, being a phenomenon which is not yet fully understood. In the OP example, that building collapse doesn't mean there was necessarily malpractice. It could simply be that the building code model used was not enough to guarantee that the building would withstand the forces involved in that particular earthquake. The Kobe earthquake of 1995 was a prime example of that. The building code used up until that point was simply not enough. It wasn't malpractice, just that until that point no one really knew that an earthquake of that (relatively low) magnitude could cause the type of damage that it did. It proved that our understanding of all the natural forces is still rather incomplete.

Edit: I didn't see the link that shows the article where the pictures came from when I posted my reply. After reading it, to me it is a case of irresponsible/incorrect procedures used on site. This would classify as an "unforeseen circumstance".
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 04:10:44 pm by Architect_1077 »
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2012, 03:42:16 pm »
Looks like they just did not go deep enough, and did not use enough steel in the piles, which in any case were too small anyway. Here you basically go down to the bedrock on such a high building, which means around 30m of pile. Otherwise the building is basically floating on sand, and it will move and buckle with time.
 

Online Mechatrommer

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2012, 04:51:20 pm »
piles are not meant to hold building from getting pulled upward, it only meant to reach the bedrock (hard ground) and avoid building from sinking, or leaning uneven to the side due to soft soil. high rise building may call for different foundation setup, but this 12 "stories" is not eligible to be called as one. now reading the link again, http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=53958 the later decision was to dig underground parking lot at the side, and the worsening mistake was to pile the digged soil on the other side. must not be within the calculation before it was built. decision like this usually come out from the big boss, they believe they can twist facts from impossible to "possible". engineers scratching their head. later on, peoples making "storeys", gossips and speculations.
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Offline G7PSK

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2012, 05:48:57 pm »
Piles work as much by friction as anything else and very often do not go down to bedrock. A lot of concrete piles are reinforced with man made fiber such as polypropylene  and not steel.
 

Online HackedFridgeMagnet

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Re: 220 stories in 90 days how long will it last.
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2012, 12:21:17 am »
Quote
piles are not meant to hold building from getting pulled upward, it only meant to reach the bedrock (hard ground) and avoid building from sinking, or leaning uneven to the side due to soft soil.

I have been told that the tensile strength of the reinforcing will help stop concrete snapping as lateral forces are exerted, because the pile will start to bend and the outside of the piles bend is under tensile forces, while the inside of the bend is under compressive forces. Because concrete has poor tensile strength, by itself it will snap like a carrot when bent.

I am still of the opinion that steel reinforcing probably should've been used here, and probably was supposed to be used, and may have prevented  the building from falling.
 


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