Author Topic: 3D Printer yet?  (Read 319148 times)

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Offline tszaboo

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #200 on: October 02, 2019, 09:05:24 am »
I have an Ender 3 pro. I dont think I would want a printer with bigger build volume, unless it prints a lot faster. The only annoying thing about it is the bed levelling, and some of the mechanical problems, that are easy to solve. After getting it, you might want to spend a few hours upgrading it, printing stuff for upgrading the machine. You also want to spend 1-2 kg of filament learning. Otherwise it is cheap to own, cheap to run. I haven't seen a reason to print anything other than PLA, but I dont want to print load bearing structural elements or water pipes or something.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 09:07:13 am by NANDBlog »
 

Offline janoc

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #201 on: October 02, 2019, 10:09:05 am »
PLA is easier to print but PETG, Gfil and ABS are both more temperature resistant and much easier to post treat/machine than PLA is.

So if you are planning on printing anything that may need to be sanded/filed or be exposed to heat higher than 60 degrees or so, you will need other materials than PLA.

I agree with the issue of the printing volume - my Mendel90 has only about 200x200x200mm printing volume and I rarely if ever use the entire bed. It is just not practical to print objects that large - it would take ages (days) and the risk of failure (e.g. something warping/cracking or the filament running out/snapping) is much higher with such a long print.

In my experience it is best to combine the fabrication methods - use subtractive methods (sawing, drilling, milling, etc.) to manufacture the bulk of whatever large object you need to build and use 3D printing for smaller things with complicated shapes, such as various brackets, fittings, etc. And then screw/glue them together. It makes zero sense to spend hours printing a large base plate for something if it is mostly flat and can be cut out of a sheet of material in a tiny fragment of the time that it would take to print it.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 10:11:08 am by janoc »
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #202 on: October 02, 2019, 10:44:48 am »
Composite construction techniques are something that I would definitely include in my solution seeking.  Speed of fabrication, cost of materials, reprinting one part of an assembly if it fails rather than a huge component - these are just a few of the practical application considerations that I agree should be part of the engineering.

PLA is just the filament I plan to start with.  It seems the most appropriate material to get my feet wet ... and hopefully minimal  |O
 

Online xrunner

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #203 on: October 02, 2019, 11:57:40 am »
I have an Ender 3 pro. I dont think I would want a printer with bigger build volume, unless it prints a lot faster. The only annoying thing about it is the bed levelling, ...

If you already know this then disregard ...

But if you don't - flash your Ender with the Marlin firmware and nuke the Creality firmware. Then enable manual mesh bed leveling menu item in the build and it will have a new menu item on the printer. This type of leveling made a dramatic quality improvement in my prints ESPECIALLY the first layer(s). You can read up on manual mesh bed leveling yourself elsewhere, but I recommend it without reservation.  :-+

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Offline Fire Doger

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #204 on: October 02, 2019, 12:18:58 pm »
32bit MCU control board with TMC drivers.
The best upgrade to any low budget printer but needs some basic knowledge of mcu.
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Offline Brumby

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #205 on: October 02, 2019, 12:55:01 pm »
TMC drivers are definitely in the line-up for my own build.

32bit MCU?  Seems a bit ahead of the curve, but it's not something I would ignore.  While I'm not against getting my hands dirty on the processor side, I'm not inclined to dive too deeply.  This is not a development area for me - just one where I would expect a reasonably modest amount of configuration.
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #206 on: October 02, 2019, 01:58:56 pm »
Because a printer doesn't have a 32 bit board isn't a reason not to buy it but for a manufacturer not to step up to 32 bit now the cost differential is nearly zero in relation to a printer the time should be coming.

Hot off youtube a newer and slightly less horrid Anet printer  :o No way I would suffer one but maybe if you are the masochistic type.

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Offline janoc

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #207 on: October 02, 2019, 02:07:10 pm »
TMC drivers are definitely in the line-up for my own build.

Um, guys, beware with those TMC drivers.

I have upgraded my machine with TMC2130 recently and it has not been smooth sailing, by far. In fact, unless you are annoyed by the "Terminator" noise the usual Allegro A4988 produce, I wouldn't bother. Only switch drivers if you have the TI DRV8825 or similar, which have known issues, requiring fudges like "smoothers" (= 4 diodes dropping the motor voltage to make the driver behave and sold for exorbitant prices).

The benefits of the Trinamic drivers are minimal - the fact that the driver supports 128x or 256x microstepping or step interpolation doesn't mean you will get smoother print! The machine tolerances will be a much larger factor and the stepper motor may not even be able to keep up with so fast pulse trains. So you end up with 16x or 32x microstepping as with the Allegro driver - but you have paid quite a bit more for it!

The only somewhat relevant thing you can't get elsewhere is the StallGuard feature, that could prevent damage to the machine if you manage to crash it. However, then on the Z axis the mechanical advantage of the leadscrews is such that the machine will get damaged way before the StallGuard triggers (and you can't turn the threshold so low to avoid it, otherwise it could trigger accidentally mid-print as well).

I wrote about my misadventures with the Trinamic drivers on my blog:
https://janoc.rd-h.com/archives/770

But in short:

- The drivers do get hot, heatsinks and potentially a fan are a must otherwise the driver could start limiting current or even shut down mid-print. Never had such issues with the A4988.

- The Trinamic drivers are rated for less current - ok for lights machines but my Mendel90 throwing around a heavy Wade's extruder pushing 3mm filament gives them quite a workout. Running the machine from 12V doesn't help neither, many of the Chinese printers run from 24V, so less current is needed.

- If you have dual drive on the Z axis (each screw has its own motor), the silent "stealthchop" mode will most likely go completely haywire and could even cause breakage to the machine because the motors will be driven out of sync.

- StealhChop includes also step interpolation (the "MicroPlyer" feature), which has issues with missed steps (see here:
https://forum.raise3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=6013)

So given that the biggest selling points of these drivers either don't really work well or the benefit isn't all that great, I wouldn't rush into buying them. I certainly wouldn't have had I known this. Many people have used these successfully but don't rush into buying these expecting that they will make your prints better. They won't and they may not even work in your printer to begin with.

32bit MCU?  Seems a bit ahead of the curve, but it's not something I would ignore.  While I'm not against getting my hands dirty on the processor side, I'm not inclined to dive too deeply.  This is not a development area for me - just one where I would expect a reasonably modest amount of configuration.

You definitely want a 32bit CPU. The 8bit boards based on the various ATMegas are being pushed to their absolute limits with the current Marlin. Both in terms of memory (e.g. the reason for me replacing the electronics on my machine was that the Melzi board I had just couldn't fit Marlin compiled with bed leveling support!) and also in terms of computing power.

32bit CPUs have no issues doing complex bezier interpolations, leading to much less stress on the machine (vibration) and better quality prints, all the while driving an LCD, talking to the host computer and/or communicating over wifi, all at the same time. You just can't do that with a slow ATMega, those are being pushed to their limits just driving the stepper motors already.

If you are hoping to update the machine to support some newer features like the automatic bed leveling, definitely go for a 32bit board (or a machine that has one already).
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 02:19:52 pm by janoc »
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #208 on: October 03, 2019, 07:59:36 am »
Just adding this here as well as it getting lost in the TEA thread.

Lisence Agreement - Use it hack it is all good but sell it for $ and I will hunt you down and do nasty things to you with a bit of filament  >:D

STL is in the zip file.

Slots are 7mm wide so it should take most cables. 203mm wide so it will fit on the smaller beds and more screw holes than needed.
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Online xrunner

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #209 on: October 03, 2019, 10:55:18 am »
Thanks beanflying I need a few more of those. Before my 3D printer I had to buy them.  |O
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Offline beanflying

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #210 on: October 03, 2019, 11:52:52 pm »
And off the printer overnight. Fingers are more than up to the job, could be made a lot lighter but it's only about 22m of filament so leaving it as is and stronger than needed.

Edit - First one installed. Sits over the PC so the leads need to be doubled but the slots work well for a straight drop and grabbing the connectors.

« Last Edit: October 04, 2019, 03:12:12 am by beanflying »
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Online tautech

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #211 on: October 04, 2019, 12:17:26 am »
And off the printer overnight. Fingers are more than up to the job, could be made a lot lighter but it's only about 22m of filament so leaving it as is and stronger than needed.
Good call, hang a few IEC leads on them and their strength will be appreciated.
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Offline beanflying

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #212 on: October 05, 2019, 02:21:32 am »
Check multiple IEC's/slot and tested for deflection with additional loading - nil to very little, array of lead types and diameters and another couple of racks made. Small washer for the rear to allow clamping to the wire racks. No more untangling to get a particular colour test lead  ;D

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Offline Brumby

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #213 on: October 09, 2019, 11:14:47 am »
Well, the printer purchase seems to have been the inexpensive move - in itself.  I had expected to start outlaying for filament, but I haven't got there yet.

Before I get into printing, I wanted to establish a home for the machine.  Find space which is solid, stable, convenient and, hopefully, level.  Here is a "before" shot of the area. My desk and computer are about a metre off to the right.



The item under the pink cloth is my AKAI GX-620 which, last time I checked, had one dead audio channel.  A cap and transistor replacement for these is so common, there are places that sell them as a kit.  This will get relocated.  The TDS220 just happened to be sitting there when I took the shot.  The crap to the left will get moved elsewhere.

Here's an intermediate view showing filing cabinet relocation and the general placement of the printers.  The board bridging the gap is temporary - I am in the process of preparing a single piece which spans the entire area, with a small cantilever to the left.  The gap was deliberately stretched a few millimetres so it would be 6RU wide, which allows my two 8656B's to be kept out of harms way until I get my equipment rack sorted.


« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 11:16:48 am by Brumby »
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #214 on: October 09, 2019, 11:19:36 am »
I wonder what else will crop up.

Actually ... no, I don't.  I don't want to know.   Not yet, anyway.   :scared:
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #215 on: October 09, 2019, 11:36:07 am »
Let me 'assist' you further just because I am that sort of guy :-DD Good value filament here @hobbyking
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Offline Brumby

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #216 on: October 09, 2019, 12:11:13 pm »
Prices look good.


 :palm: And here we go down the rabbit hole.....
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #217 on: October 09, 2019, 12:18:43 pm »
Tempted to grab some ABS to play with for myself as some of it is very cheap.

Wouldn't maybe bother with the 250g spools but 500g ones would be a way to get a larger spread of colours initially. The eSun in particular seems to be well regarded but for PLA I wouldn't worry to much.
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Offline Brumby

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #218 on: October 09, 2019, 12:22:55 pm »
Yes, I noticed the price on some of the ABS.

I've already started a cart ....  :palm:
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #219 on: October 09, 2019, 12:46:56 pm »
I suspect ABS is going for cheap because of its disadvantages - needs heated chamber and unhealthy fumes being the main ones. PETG has largely replaced it.
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Offline beanflying

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #220 on: October 09, 2019, 01:10:09 pm »
ABS has been cheaper than PLA or PETG historically. I have chambers for my printers and I was planning to run ducts on them prior to playing with ABS and one of the Enders is setup to play with higher temp filaments too so PC, Nylon etc.

I very much doubt I would go to ABS from the other two for general use but I want to have a play and being able to add a more temperature tolerant result which hanging around coffee gear would be useful in some applications.
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Offline janoc

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #221 on: October 09, 2019, 03:26:21 pm »
I suspect ABS is going for cheap because of its disadvantages - needs heated chamber and unhealthy fumes being the main ones. PETG has largely replaced it.

ABS doesn't need heated chamber.

You need to protect the printer from drafts - i.e. don't operate it next to an open door or window if you want to print ABS - the temperature differentials will cause it to warp or crack.

Enclosing the machine helps, though - doesn't need to be heated (nor insulated or airtight!). A simple  box to keep the heat from the bed in and drafts out will help you a ton against warping and layer separation on larger parts*. This applies to any filament which has warping issues due to irregular/too rapid cooling (ABS, Nylon, even PETG to a degree).

I have built a simple 50x50x50cm cube from cheap acrylic to put over my Mendel90 and it easily keeps the inside at balmy 30-40 degrees while printing - completely sufficient to not have any warping issues anymore and still cool enough to not have to move the electronics outside (which would be a major issue - having the box insulated and airtight is actually counterproductive). Others have used various plastic boxes or even Ikea tables for this.

Having the machine covered up also helps with any objectionable fumes and protects the machine from collecting dust when not in use (bad for leadscrews, pullies, etc. which can get gunked up due to oil/grease picking up dust).

The unhealthy fumes are pretty much the same as with PETG - that it doesn't smell doesn't mean you aren't getting lungs full of nanoparticles (the main issue with ABS, even PLA emits those, just to a smaller degree) and some styrene (ABS) or caprolactam (PETG). Enclosing the printer helps with that. If you print a lot, you may want to add an exhaust fan and a HEPA filter.

However, if you aren't sitting for hours next to the printer (i.e. don't run it in your bedroom!) and ventilate the room well after you are done, you don't really need to worry much about this at the scales most people print at home. Of course, if you are running a production line or a hackerspace with multiple machines running non-stop, then that is a different matter.

*Even if that happens and you get cracking and layer separation on larger prints when ABS cools because you don't have the machine enclosed, it is often easy to fix - ABS is very easy to glue using acetone. Just brush on a bit of acetone and clamp the cracked bits together. After the acetone evaporates the part will be most likely fine.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 03:49:27 pm by janoc »
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #222 on: October 10, 2019, 06:28:09 am »
I like the idea of dust protection - and the environmental temperature stability.  That gives me more confidence to try ABS and PETG.  I like more durable items.

One of the first I'm likely to try for is the screw block for the clip of the sun visor in my car.  That needs some tolerance to heat.


... but I'm getting ahead of myself.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #223 on: October 10, 2019, 09:26:46 am »
I like the idea of dust protection - and the environmental temperature stability.  That gives me more confidence to try ABS and PETG.  I like more durable items.

One of the first I'm likely to try for is the screw block for the clip of the sun visor in my car.  That needs some tolerance to heat.


... but I'm getting ahead of myself.

Small parts (< ~5cm on the side) will likely print just fine even without any enclosure in ABS and almost certainly in PETG/GFil, as long as you have a heated bed, good first layer and use something to make the plastic stick to the bed (or have something like Buildtak bed). You will also want to turn off or slow down the extruder fan (if you have two, the one cooling the piece, not the hotend). Running the fan at full blast (which is default for PLA) is one of the most common reasons why people struggle with printing ABS - it will cause the plastic to cool down too rapidly, causing stresses and ultimately layer separation/warping.

I am printing ABS at around 90°C bed temperature, about 230°C hotend, on glass, using either a layer of UHU glue or, more recently, the Dimafix spray to make it stick. I have actually more reliable results printing ABS than I ever had with PLA, which is a lot more fussy when printed on glass.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 09:30:02 am by janoc »
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: 3D Printer yet?
« Reply #224 on: October 10, 2019, 12:12:57 pm »
Let me 'assist' you further just because I am that sort of guy :-DD Good value filament here @hobbyking

Well, there goes $120.  Some colours in PLA, a couple of ABS and a PETG.


7.5 kg should be enough to drive me around the bend.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 11:03:37 pm by Brumby »
 


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