"household devices, electrical batteries, chemicals"

[Whales]

Regarding an Australian ABC article on an alleged terror plot involving a teenager and explosives.

The article covers something that is of course disturbing and I don't mean to be offensive by avoiding the main issues in it.  I'd like to discuss the advice the police have given to the general public:

However, Acting Chief Commissioner Tim Cartwright said it was important the community remained alert.

"If you do see anything suspicious, if you see young people taking an unusual interest in what would normally be household devices, electrical batteries, chemicals, then you need to be concerned," he said.

"You need to tell us, you need to ring the terrorist hotline [1800-123-400], you need to ring triple-0, or Crime Stoppers."

I work with Li-po batteries in projects for myself and my student group.  Simple chemicals like acetone, alcohol and otherwise are commonplace in both my bedroom lab and at a few places I solder at uni.  I'm often working on some 'household device'.  I fit into all three of the categories of concern in the quote above.  Despite the fact the police have found someone potentially wanting to hurt others I'm also worried that those around me will think I'm trying to hurt people because I sometimes carry wires, projects, batteries and 'household devices' around with me.  What about other students and hobbyists in the same position?

I think it's important we're critical of everyone's voice, including the police, to ensure negative feedback (which helps everybody).  What do you guys think?

[Zero999]

I agree, not everyone who uses such chemicals is a terrorist. Hell, even some people like to experiment with making explosives as part of their study of chemistry but they wouldn't do so to hurt anyone.

[staxquad]

Most likely patsies, informants, entrapment.

Find vulnerable and not too bright people, get an informant to rile them up, offer money, plans, transportation, material,  then send them to jail for decades, use the propaganda to remove rights to justify loss of liberty to solidify power and their perpetual war on terror which is just plain Imperialism and resource theft.

They always get caught before anything is used because the State created and control them.

Anyway, that's my take after seeing so many get entrapped in the USA and Canada by the FBI and Mounties.

[cimmo]

Most likely patsies, informants, entrapment.

I think this could be happening in many cases. But sometimes, the general public (and equally clueless police) can misinterpret completely innocuous events:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Boston_bomb_scare
"During the preliminary investigation at the site, police found that the device shared "some characteristics with improvised explosive devices." These characteristics included an identifiable power source, circuit board with exposed wiring, and electrical tape. "

How many of our gadgets/projects fall into that category?

[Lee697]

I do rocketry as well..... so my bench is covered in power supplies, batteries, exposed circuit boards, solvents, and I am no doubt at times covered in nitrogenous residues!

[IanB]

There's a reason why the police have been nicknamed "PC Plod".  Anything that involves thinking or education is likely to be beyond their comprehension.

[BradC]

and I am no doubt at times covered in nitrogenous residues!

I make sure I rub a bit of nitrogen based fertilizer on my bag or my jeans most times I fly. it livens up everyones day.

[steve30]

Based on advice I've seen given to the public on how to watch out for terrorism etc, I'm probably the ultimate in terrorists. For starters, I do electronics, and have chemicals for a variety of purposes. I also dabble in photography (perhaps the most obvious sign of terrorism), and that is a hobby which requires lots of chemicals (although whether they can explode, I don't know).

 

[T3sl4co1l]

RIP Australia...

You think that's bad, imagine trying to actually perform real, useful chemistry (in most any "western" country).  The guys at SMDB have many stories, and much advice.  Some of whom do entertain the more "off limits" branches of the field (explosives, drugs, poisons), but most just want to do neat things.  (Personally, still one of my favorites is simply growing bit copper sulfate crystals.  It's just so pretty.)

Sadly, even in the US, one can have their equipment and information (computers, etc.) seized with absolutely no legal process necessary, not even a warrant.  Mere suspicion is sufficient for the Drug War, let alone DHS.  I imagine it's worse (more reasons, like Public Safety!) in .au, .eu, etc.

Tim

[tszaboo]

Probably the police is smart enough to distinguish between WD40 and alcohol or 600 KG of ammonium nitrate. Otherwise... The KGB asked similar things from an average citizen. Spy on your neighbors!

[G7PSK]

If ammonium nitrate is the mark of a terrorist my neighbour had better watch out he/they leave ton bags of the stuff around and have sheds full of it. They also have pipes and tanks and all sorts of other equipment as well.
It is not what you have but but showing a sudden interest in a few specifics that make the police sit and notice along with your political and or religious beliefs.
Most of the present terrorist problems would fade away if they cut off the hydras head, read Saudi Arabia here.

[donotdespisethesnake]

Sadly, the "threat" of terrorism is used as an excuse to bolster the police state and to erode civil liberties throughout western countries - here is one example of many : http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/new-york-police-terrorism-pressure-cooker

Do you own a pressure cooker? My husband said no, but we have a rice cooker. Can you make a bomb with that? My husband said no, my wife uses it to make quinoa. What the hell is quinoa, they asked.

It's a real shame how we have turned on ourselves. Kids interested in science are treated as potential terrorists. With anti-terror laws, DMCA etc, the state is increasingly becoming an enforcer for big business. The ordinary public are turned into passive consumers, banned from any technical activities.

[smjcuk]

It's deeper than this.

One of our staff was detained at a London terminal station after being stopped and searched when he was carrying an Inno view fiber fusion splicer in case it "was a bomb". Took 4 hours to get it cleared which fucked our SLA. Plus the guy quit.

That is the level of on the ground ignorance we're talking about. Add to that the layers of judicial incompetence and political pandering and we're heading down a dangerous road.

[Rerouter]

Not had any worries so far, but jeeze they did not word it well, also every time i hear of these terrorism threats i tend to laugh, not because they are false, but because most of the approaches where doomed to fail,

To anyone with an idle mind driving through the city you would notice pinch points in the traffic etc that a single accident can stall half the city for a few hours, or hear about a train signalling problem in one location that shuts down half the network for a few hours, etc, not that i have any intention on ever acting on these thoughts, but a city is not hard to topple for a day, and i see that as far more terrorism to the people than one guy trying to blow up 2-3 others every few months

There are many more pinch points to the gas and power network in every city, but i think that would already get me called up for review,

[Sionyn]

a friend of mine was nearly arrested when some woman told a police officer he was a 'hacker' whilst he had a terminal session running updating a server he looked after before he bored his plane in Heathrow   

[LordNobady]

I only have one thing to say.
Don't underestimate the power of stupid. 

[SArepairman]

Yea mad retarded chemphobia, there is not much you can do about it.  It's just retarded dark age horse shit their trying to push  Burn the fucking witch!!!!!!!


All this does is stunt the development of skilled chemists. 

You know what you need to get yourself one of those PhD's thats gonna change the world with revolutionary synthesis and whatnot? You need a kid that had his own chemistry lab since he was 13 and broke a fair bit of goverment regulations. Everyone who means something thinks what they are doing is cool regardless of what they are paid or who they work for. IMO the pathfinders kinda just see their employment/bosses/etc as a means to the end they are studying.. if you gave them $ they would setup their own lab and do something similar, after they had a few years to get bored of luxuries and the part of their brain thats responsible for science starts itching again (just try and turn it off)

I'm sure alot of the skilled electrical people all have their own labs and their own passions right?

do i give a fuck about some upidy kid in syria yelling into youtube about how hes gonna kill me? not really
am i 100x more scared about a paranoid goverment over reacting and hurting me? yes.

in the last 5 years I prob nearly died/got grevious injured about 8 times on the street due to motorists. and harassed by cops over stupid shit 2 times.

in the last 5 years I have not encountered a single terrorist attack/threatening muslim/etc. hell, both whites and non whites in my university were agreeing and cheering with me when I was telling everyone to party it up on the day we were told that bin laden got whacked.

[G7PSK]

What the police are now doing in many parts of the world is exactly what the terrorists want. The whole purpose of terrorist acts is to cause the authorities to clamp down on the people, that is why for so many years the IRA was treated as a policing action and not a military one and security precautions were relatively light it was only after 9/11 that we began to see the knee-jerk reactions of the security forces.

[SArepairman]

What the police are now doing in many parts of the world is exactly what the terrorists want. The whole purpose of terrorist acts is to cause the authorities to clamp down on the people, that is why for so many years the IRA was treated as a policing action and not a military one and security precautions were relatively light it was only after 9/11 that we began to see the knee-jerk reactions of the security forces.

Indeed, the geopolitical reasons behind the behavior of terrorist organizations are often ignored. THey are not psychos, they do what they do in order to have a geopolitical effect. An a example of the type of analysis that is often overlooked


I'm not saying this guy is the gospel, but in general human beings want the same thing, money and power. In American we are often made to see terrorists as psychotic children, sure, it happens sometimes, but the well funded organizations thought long and hard as to what buttons to push and why.

[c4757p]

THey are not psychos, they do what they do in order to have a geopolitical effect.

The two are hardly mutually exclusive.