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A serious (as in not troll) requestfor help w/ultrasonic transducer

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coppercone2:
i wanna see what they say about contamination when you put it in a glass jar and prove there is ultrasonic energy in there. its how you do chemistry. they have wands for starting reactions in glassware. reactions that require the purest of pure conditions, for biological science.

IanB:

--- Quote from: watchmaker on April 23, 2024, 12:34:20 am ---Then comes the issue that for those with parts accounts, the cleaning machine has to be accepted by the brands.  This 50 year old machine is one of the few that are accepted.

Refurbished, this machine costs close to $5K USD. The new machines (Greiner, Matador) start at $7K USD.  This is not a problem for me since I no longer have a parts account.  But many of my colleagues do, and most have this machine.

You should see the cost for a water leak tester!

--- End quote ---

Honestly, this is ludicrous! An ultrasonic cleaner suitable for watch parts and jewelry shouldn't cost more than a few hundred dollars.

As for being accepted by the brands, I have heard enough horror stories of watches being damaged by authorized repairers that I would be very wary of trusting an expensive timepiece to one of them. It's not the parts cleaner that does the damage, it is the incompetent human doing the work.

I would rather put my trust in a known independent watch repairer with a track record and good references. (Though, granted, finding one of those might not be easy.)

watchmaker:

--- Quote from: IanB on April 23, 2024, 12:45:30 am ---
--- Quote from: watchmaker on April 23, 2024, 12:27:48 am ---I am not repairing these, there is a business that does only these.  While I am hoping my unit is down because of a failed capacitor array (to be checked this week), the next failure point is the head.  And the tech and his Dad have been trying to come up with replacements for broken transducers since they ran out of their stock of replacements.

I am asking here because I want these units to continue to be available rather than force more watchmakers out of business or have to line the pockets of the brands who have a vested interest in the new machines.

If anyone know a source, it may make business sense for the repair business to have 50 or 100 donuts made.

--- End quote ---

Thanks, I will upload a pic tomorrow,  But there is no real real mass-produced transducer replacement.  The motor arbor must pass thru the assembled transducer to the partsbasket which is below the transducer.

Here is a link to a YT on showing the machine:




Unfortunately, I can't tell what this "donut" thing is? If I search for "ultrasonic transducers" I find pictures of things that look like the one below. They are shiny metal in appearance and have two electrical terminals for the power to be applied. They don't look like your picture.

If you were able to show more pictures of the whole machine and the assembly of the transducer and associated parts, it might be easier for someone to search for equivalents. But unless you find here an expert in the field, it is only guesswork.

https://www.amazon.com/Conversion-Efficiency-Ultrasonic-Piezoelectric-Transducer/dp/B0CLTX5JMD

--- End quote ---

watchmaker:

--- Quote from: IanB on April 23, 2024, 12:52:13 am ---
--- Quote from: watchmaker on April 23, 2024, 12:34:20 am ---Then comes the issue that for those with parts accounts, the cleaning machine has to be accepted by the brands.  This 50 year old machine is one of the few that are accepted.

Refurbished, this machine costs close to $5K USD. The new machines (Greiner, Matador) start at $7K USD.  This is not a problem for me since I no longer have a parts account.  But many of my colleagues do, and most have this machine.

You should see the cost for a water leak tester!

--- End quote ---

Honestly, this is ludicrous! An ultrasonic cleaner suitable for watch parts and jewelry shouldn't cost more than a few hundred dollars.

As for being accepted by the brands, I have heard enough horror stories of watches being damaged by authorized repairers that I would be very wary of trusting an expensive timepiece to one of them. It's not the parts cleaner that does the damage, it is the incompetent human doing the work.

I would rather put my trust in a known independent watch repairer with a track record and good references. (Though, granted, finding one of those might not be easy.)

--- End quote ---

All the rants have been made for over 2 decades as parts account were closed.  But now comes the time to deal with the reality.

If you want to know the real joke, ALL of the major brands are partners in Bergeon, one of the major distributors of these kinds of machines  Portescop (Greiner) is a part of the Swiss Watchmaking consortium (cartel).  Cartel is not a dirty word to the Swiss and the govt, banks and manufacturing have openly operated as a cartel since WWI.  Collaboration is better than competition in their view.  FOr example, many brands buy the ETA 7750 to use in their watches.

I gave up my parts accounts when it became a requirement to buy a water tester for $11K (yes that $11K).  Omega allowed me to keep a small account and to continue as a service provider, but I only serviced vintage Omegas even tohugh I was trained on the Coaxial and the chronograph module.

The ultimate goal is to bring ALL service back into the brand house.  Audemars no longer even services anything in the US, it all goes back to Switz.
Last I heard, ROlex was sending its USA work to South America an  China.  I am pretty sure Omega is still done in the US Swatch service centers, but I am not sure about the higher-end Swatchnames.  They probably go back home.

I was involved in the effort to get the US watchmaker groups to provide evidence to the FTC case about parts restrictions back in the late 1990s.  But the volunteer officers and board members preferred to think they would be protected from closures if the kept their mouths shut (I still have the correspondence).  Happplily, they were not even close to the last of accounts to be closed .  Camus.  (They actually thought they were as smart s a Rolex International VP!!)

So I am not excersized about the situation.  But the trade treated me very well, and I have always tried to further its interests.

coppercone2:
what the hell do they care about the water for?

you rinse it with DI water.


You know a standard ass lab can make semiconductor clean surfaces. as EE we know this. Usually it involves a DDI water rinse at the end to get rid of any 'chemicals'.

For steel you can find all sorts of free access tables for which one is the least contamination. its basic science 101 for some fields, even at an associates level (technician) to have to know how to clean stuff. the only requirementi s money, because it costs a bit more for the spectroscopic grade stuff. the most basic ass job in analytical chemistry at 15.50 an hour high school intern requires knowledge of this.

that's right. spectro scopic grade. for things like precision diffraction gratings with micron features.


what in a watch requires this nonsense? The only part where its not cringe worthy is prep before plating. then its important to be really clean, for the highest quality. But its little more then careful rinsing wiht clean stuff. Optics seems harder to clean because of scratching, and fragile thin films... but its only a problem if you basically don't spend any time researching and don't spend any more (as I found out with some laser stuff, because its basically plastic coated and there is some incompatibilities that seem like nonsense to any home owner that has glass (late roman empire ) (no ammonia))


I only ever seen the ultrasonic do bad things with brass, when loaded with concenrated acid. then it starts plating the tub if you leave it for 30 min lol



and if it really mattered, that fancy machine would use a glass transducer for ultrasonic delivery. they would figure out how if they are worried about ion contamination .  So you have a glass bowl but you stick metal in it. you would either use a much bigger tank to deliver the energy through water surrounding a glass bowl, or figure out how to deliver it through a glass horn that is dipped in (i.e. maybe quartz is tough enough). because money is no object for the swiss and they would want the best performance. the term you want for that apparatus your fixing is ultrasonic horn that is glued to the tank. Basically if you are after the ultimate clean, putting a mason jar in there with a loose lid on it filled with the cleanest water is going to be cleaner then that expensive machine in the video, because their dipping metal into it. it might matter, if its preparing a sample for a ICP plasma metal study.  :P . I would put money on that, that my 5$ beaker filled with clean water, with a watch glass on top in a chinese ultrasonic cleaner would be cleaner then a water sample from that machine for metal ions, in what... the PPB concentration?



talk about stepping on the little guy. because the big guy can't innovate, or rather does not want to... and instead wants a 'subscription' fee from maintence contact. all these companies now think their so smart an hot for trying to make you subscribe.

usually it means your R&D is a dumpster fire that can't make anything people actually want and its sad because there is so much analog computing watches can do. they did the turbulon. maybe they should come up with something new so they don't have to worry about their ancient designs. three dimensional mechanical displays,things with prisms, new materials,... nope...


I noticed this with victornox too. the swiss army knife guys. leatherman has them in the DUST because they innovated. actually managed to use magnets and their not stupid and annoying. and other people can't get the super alloys right so the off brand tools are OK if you don't mind your knife snapping on you because it felt like it.

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