Author Topic: Advice needed for running Linux and develeopment tools, programming tools, etc  (Read 5527 times)

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Offline joeqsmith

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NI has or had a version of LabVIEW for GNU but it was really crippled, similar to their 64-bit version.  My guess is there is little demand for it.

Anytime I have play with any of the open source code, its go out and find all the file, sub files, sub sub files. Build, build build build build.  Then test test test test test.   Then pick the least buggy of the various attempts.   Normally asking for help in the forums is a negative result. 

I actually use a flavor of GNU LINUX for work but it is in a very limited capacity.   Every time I look at it, it's better but until the mainstream tools I use run flawless on it, I can't switch.  I've been waiting for it since Windows 95.   
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Offline eugenenine

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NI has or had a version of LabVIEW for GNU but it was really crippled, similar to their 64-bit version.  My guess is there is little demand for it.

Anytime I have play with any of the open source code, its go out and find all the file, sub files, sub sub files. Build, build build build build.  Then test test test test test.   Then pick the least buggy of the various attempts.   Normally asking for help in the forums is a negative result. 
 

Funny, I've had better luck with open source support.  I still have a couple old Microsoft cases in my notes where they refused to fix an issue.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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That doesn't surprise me at all.  With the open source community, I don't expect support so it's a matter of spending a lot of time grinding away until I find some magic combination that sort of works.   Don't get me wrong, for what it is, it is very impressive.  I started playing with LINUX around the time Windows 95 was released.  I download it every few years and see how it's doing.  Spend a few weeks trying things out and put it away again.

Does Octave now come with 64-bit indexing enabled?   Last time I looked was maybe five years ago and they still were 32-bits.  I think I asked in the forums and the through was there was no need to support it as you would never work with data sets that large.   :-DD   Fun stuff.  Everyone should at least try it once. 
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Offline lundmar

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Does Octave now come with 64-bit indexing enabled?   Last time I looked was maybe five years ago and they still were 32-bits.  I think I asked in the forums and the through was there was no need to support it as you would never work with data sets that large.   :-DD   Fun stuff.  Everyone should at least try it once.

https://www.gnu.org/software/octave/doc/v4.2.0/Compiling-Octave-with-64_002dbit-Indexing.html

Time to leave Windows behind mister ;)
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Offline Monkeh

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Anytime I have play with any of the open source code, its go out and find all the file, sub files, sub sub files. Build, build build build build.  Then test test test test test.   Then pick the least buggy of the various attempts.   Normally asking for help in the forums is a negative result. 

Just like patching together proprietary blobs with a multitude of undocumented changes and missing revisions, you mean. Except there you have no chance of fixing it yourself.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Does Octave now come with 64-bit indexing enabled?   Last time I looked was maybe five years ago and they still were 32-bits.  I think I asked in the forums and the through was there was no need to support it as you would never work with data sets that large.   :-DD   Fun stuff.  Everyone should at least try it once.

https://www.gnu.org/software/octave/doc/v4.2.0/Compiling-Octave-with-64_002dbit-Indexing.html

Time to leave Windows behind mister ;)

This is exactly my point. It's been at least four years, maybe five and they still built for 32-bit.  The option was there back then to build it with 64-bit indexing.  Of course you then need to find and set up everything. After playing with several versions, I was able to get it working fairly decent and it actually did a decent job compared with Mathworks, considering it was free.  But wow, what a time sucker.   Build a version, and graphics was great but some bug.  Build the next version, graphics are broke. 

I ran it as a sever for over a year once without a power cycle.  I thought that was pretty impressive. 

One day, maybe the mainstream tools I use will run on it. 
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Offline Karel

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"What do you anticipate Microsoft will do next?"

...

Microsoft will switch to Linux and keep selling their software on top of Linux. And it will cost the Windows users as much as before.

At the same time will the Linux community get face-stomped by hordes of Windows users, all trying to learn everything there is to learn about Linux and in record-breaking time.

Some long-time Linux supporters will switch to Microsoft in a heart beat like cold-hearted back-stabbers, while others die the slow death of the White Knight in the most epic drama the Linux community has ever seen, before the Linux community itself disappears and we will all have turned into "the new Windows user".

Once it's all done and over, and Microsoft has taken over Linux with its hordes of Windows users, will you either be the new slave of the Microsoft empire or you will have found refuge under a tiny bridge, just next to the one where all the FreeBSD trolls live, and where you'll then be telling tales of Linux's past.
 

Offline lundmar

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"What do you anticipate Microsoft will do next?"

...

Microsoft will switch to Linux and keep selling their software on top of Linux. And it will cost the Windows users as much as before.

At the same time will the Linux community get face-stomped by hordes of Windows users, all trying to learn everything there is to learn about Linux and in record-breaking time.

Some long-time Linux supporters will switch to Microsoft in a heart beat like cold-hearted back-stabbers, while others die the slow death of the White Knight in the most epic drama the Linux community has ever seen, before the Linux community itself disappears and we will all have turned into "the new Windows user".

Once it's all done and over, and Microsoft has taken over Linux with its hordes of Windows users, will you either be the new slave of the Microsoft empire or you will have found refuge under a tiny bridge, just next to the one where all the FreeBSD trolls live, and where you'll then be telling tales of Linux's past.

Lol Karel, this is poet level material!
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Online hendorog

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Does Octave now come with 64-bit indexing enabled?   Last time I looked was maybe five years ago and they still were 32-bits.  I think I asked in the forums and the through was there was no need to support it as you would never work with data sets that large.   :-DD   Fun stuff.  Everyone should at least try it once.

https://www.gnu.org/software/octave/doc/v4.2.0/Compiling-Octave-with-64_002dbit-Indexing.html

Time to leave Windows behind mister ;)

This is exactly my point. It's been at least four years, maybe five and they still built for 32-bit.  The option was there back then to build it with 64-bit indexing.  Of course you then need to find and set up everything. After playing with several versions, I was able to get it working fairly decent and it actually did a decent job compared with Mathworks, considering it was free.  But wow, what a time sucker.   Build a version, and graphics was great but some bug.  Build the next version, graphics are broke. 

I ran it as a sever for over a year once without a power cycle.  I thought that was pretty impressive. 

One day, maybe the mainstream tools I use will run on it.

Fair point, recompiling Octave for 64bit indexing does look a bit ugly. For whatever reason they haven't made that simple.

If you can stay with the mainstream software then linux is very simple these days. The definition of mainstream is not the same as it is for windows however.

It's all about expectations.

MS now support running a real Ubuntu Linux natively inside Windows 10, so I use that for any command line stuff - no VM required!


 

Offline eugenenine

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I guess building stuff isn't a big deal to me.  When I got off of windows back in 2002 I went with slackware.  Most everything you build anyway so its pretty easy now.
 

Offline timb

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Here, most of the software testing is done in Virtualbox VMs on a Debian host.

Used VMWare in v1 days and it was good, but v2 sucked like hell so we switched to Virtualbox. Not looked at VMWare since so can't comment on recent versions, but we're happy with Virtualbox anyway. It allows you to redirect specific USB devices from host to guest. Support is USB1 only unless you install the extension pack, which is not strictly free for business use.

For what it’s worth, VMWare has mighty fine USB3 support. (Works with all hosts but only officially on Windows 7+ and macOS 10.9+ guests; Linux guests may work if they support the particular Intel USB3 controller VMWare emulates. USB2 is supported on pretty much everything.)

As for virtualization being slow, well, it’s not! Modern CPUs actually provide specific hardware that allows guest OSes direct access to the processor, so they can run at near bare metal speeds. Add in features like Linux’s Kernel Virtual Machine (which allows a VM direct access to other hardware, like PCI-e devices, etc.)

Honestly, there’s really no reason to dick around with WINE in my opinion.

VMWare Fusion (macOS) even has a feature that allows you to run Windows apps directly alongside macOS apps (essentially they give each running Windows program a dock icon, macOS title bar and window, the rest of the Windows interface (desktop, start menu, etc.) is hidden). It’s pretty slick and makes you *almost* forget you’re running Windows, too.
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Offline eugenenine

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Well, Virtualization is slow if you try to use Windows as a host, thats where the 'virtualization' is slow comes from.  When Microsoft removed from XP some of the reg keys we used to get good performance on 2000 then later released their own virtualization product the reason then made sense.  They intentionally cripple the rest of their OS products to get you to buy their virtual stuff.

Running on a Linux host I can't tell any slowdown.  I used to hand people my laptop and let them run windows on it then pop it out of full screen so they could see they were running as a virtual guest on a linux host and they were all surprised that the windows guest performance was so good.  I think it actually works better than on native hardware because Linux is caching into ram what widows thinks its swapping to disk.
 

Offline Lightages

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Which of the 50 VMWare products does one choose? It isn't even close to obvious.
 

Online hendorog

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Honestly, there’s really no reason to dick around with WINE in my opinion.


VM's are great, but virtualisation is a RAM and disk space eater, that is one reason why Wine is still relevant. It is also handy for software which is only used occasionally where you don't want to maintain an entire other OS just for the odd program.



« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 09:03:46 pm by hendorog »
 

Online hendorog

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Which of the 50 VMWare products does one choose? It isn't even close to obvious.

You probably want Workstation: https://www.vmware.com/products/workstation-pro.html

Personally I would suggest you try VirtualBox first as it is free and might be good enough. You can always go and pay for VMWare if VB doesn't do the job.
I used VMWare Workstation for many years, but found it good but not good enough to pay the premium over VB.
 

Offline nctnico

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Honestly, there’s really no reason to dick around with WINE in my opinion.

VM's are great, but virtualisation is a RAM and disk space eater, that is one reason why Wine is still relevant. It is also handy for software which is only used occasionally where you don't want to maintain an entire other OS just for the odd program.
But getting something to work under Wine eats more time than RAM and hard drive space cost nowadays. I have tried Wine in the past but every time the first piece of software I try doesn't work.
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Online hendorog

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Honestly, there’s really no reason to dick around with WINE in my opinion.

VM's are great, but virtualisation is a RAM and disk space eater, that is one reason why Wine is still relevant. It is also handy for software which is only used occasionally where you don't want to maintain an entire other OS just for the odd program.
But getting something to work under Wine eats more time than RAM and hard drive space cost nowadays. I have tried Wine in the past but every time the first piece of software I try doesn't work.

It depends on the software - I posted a while back about running Sonnet Lite under Wine on my Mac and it worked fine.

I wouldn't try too hard, if it doesn't work it doesn't work and then you know a VM is the way forward. If it does work then you are up and running in less time than it takes to boot a VM :)
 

Offline cdev

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In my experience the kinds of task-specific programs, loggers, calculators, etc. used with my electronics equipment often work under Wine.

Wine has gotten a lot better over the years.
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Offline timb

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Honestly, there’s really no reason to dick around with WINE in my opinion.


VM's are great, but virtualisation is a RAM and disk space eater, that is one reason why Wine is still relevant. It is also handy for software which is only used occasionally where you don't want to maintain an entire other OS just for the odd program.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you; but now you can have 16GB of ram and 1TB of solid state storage for very little money.

I basically stopped even trying WINE awhile back because it was easier to use a VM. Keep in mind I keep the Windows 7 VM booted but paused, so it only takes a few seconds to start.

I also find a VM much handier than dual booting because of one fantastic little feature: Snapshots. Being able to take a snapshot of the entire VM (which includes memory contents if it’s running) allows you to roll back to any point instantly. It’s great for trying out new software, without botching an entire Windows install.

(I don’t know how other VM software does it, but in VMWare they essentially use “linked clones” of the virtual hard disk image to do snapshots, so you’re only saving the changed data between snapshots and not an entirely new copy of the disk image. That saves a good deal of space!)

Anyway, WINE does have its place, I’m just not a big fan. (For example, Novarm distribute their macOS version of DipTrace as a WINE bottled application, however I never quite felt it worked 100% right, despite being coded specifically with the constraints of WINE in mind. I eventually moved over to the Windows version in a VM and was much happier.)
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Online hendorog

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Honestly, there’s really no reason to dick around with WINE in my opinion.


VM's are great, but virtualisation is a RAM and disk space eater, that is one reason why Wine is still relevant. It is also handy for software which is only used occasionally where you don't want to maintain an entire other OS just for the odd program.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you; but now you can have 16GB of ram and 1TB of solid state storage for very little money.

I basically stopped even trying WINE awhile back because it was easier to use a VM. Keep in mind I keep the Windows 7 VM booted but paused, so it only takes a few seconds to start.

I also find a VM much handier than dual booting because of one fantastic little feature: Snapshots. Being able to take a snapshot of the entire VM (which includes memory contents if it’s running) allows you to roll back to any point instantly. It’s great for trying out new software, without botching an entire Windows install.

(I don’t know how other VM software does it, but in VMWare they essentially use “linked clones” of the virtual hard disk image to do snapshots, so you’re only saving the changed data between snapshots and not an entirely new copy of the disk image. That saves a good deal of space!)

Anyway, WINE does have its place, I’m just not a big fan. (For example, Novarm distribute their macOS version of DipTrace as a WINE bottled application, however I never quite felt it worked 100% right, despite being coded specifically with the constraints of WINE in mind. I eventually moved over to the Windows version in a VM and was much happier.)

Yep totally agree. It's useful when it works, but probably not for a complex app you use heavily.

 

Offline Red Squirrel

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For anything that requires a physical connections VMs can be hit and miss, the device won't always show up as an option to do pass through or sometimes it will just be flaky.  My experience with that has always been mixed.   I would just have a separate machine with windows for that stuff.   But in general I do my best to avoid anything that may require windows.   It is annoying that so many things are designed for it though instead of being open. 
 

Offline timb

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Advice needed for running Linux and develeopment tools, programming tools, etc
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2017, 10:48:01 am »
For anything that requires a physical connections VMs can be hit and miss, the device won't always show up as an option to do pass through or sometimes it will just be flaky.  My experience with that has always been mixed.   I would just have a separate machine with windows for that stuff.   But in general I do my best to avoid anything that may require windows.   It is annoying that so many things are designed for it though instead of being open.

I disagree, though, it may depend on the VM software you use. I’ve found that commercial options tend to be much better in this regard (Parallels, VMWare, etc). Especially when it comes to basic USB pass through and such working reliably out of the box.

I use VMWare Fusion (which uses basically the same VMX core as Workstation) almost daily, for everything from test equipment connections (scopes, AFGs, power supplies, DMMs, GPIB adapters and so on) to embedded development (including firmware programming and debugging) and I rarely, if ever, have a single device fail to pass through. In fact, I think the last time was circa 2009 with some odd Chinese device that didn’t quite respect the USB bulk transfer standard. The developer who handles USB for VMWare had me turn on verbose USB logging, plug the device in and send her the log. I had a patch a few days later.

I’ve actually found using a VM with good USB logging capabilities can be very, very helpful when writing software for an embedded
USB stack. Also for reverse engineering protocols and hacking devices. It makes it super easy to monitor the traffic flow. [emoji4]

Anyway, as I mentioned before, VMs give you the ability to do snapshots and rollbacks of the entire image, in seconds, which is a lot more difficult to setup on a physical machine (and a lot more time consuming to actually do the rollbacks).

Most of my software development is done on the command line these days, and while I *could* easily setup the toolchain under macOS, I instead tend to run them under a Linux VM instead. This has three big advantages:
1) I can rollback to a previous snapshot if something breaks.
2) I can have separate VMs with otherwise incompatible combinations of software installed.
3) I can archive a copy of the VM (with all the dev tools installed) with the rest of the project files (source code, gerbers, etc). That way, if I have to go back 6 months or 6 years from now and make a change, I know the dev environment will be intact and I won’t have to spend a weekend figuring out how to install ancient dev tools on a modern environment).

That applies equally to Linux and Windows tools.

And hey, if you don’t want to have to boot into an OS just to VM another OS, there’s always bare metal virtualization systems (HyperVisors) to manage and run the VMs.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 10:49:45 am by timb »
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Offline Karel

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I’ve actually found using a VM with good USB logging capabilities can be very, very helpful when writing software for an embedded
USB stack. Also for reverse engineering protocols and hacking devices. It makes it super easy to monitor the traffic flow. [emoji4]

Better than, for example, using Wireshark?
 

Offline nctnico

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Honestly, there’s really no reason to dick around with WINE in my opinion.

VM's are great, but virtualisation is a RAM and disk space eater, that is one reason why Wine is still relevant. It is also handy for software which is only used occasionally where you don't want to maintain an entire other OS just for the odd program.
But getting something to work under Wine eats more time than RAM and hard drive space cost nowadays. I have tried Wine in the past but every time the first piece of software I try doesn't work.

It depends on the software - I posted a while back about running Sonnet Lite under Wine on my Mac and it worked fine.

I wouldn't try too hard, if it doesn't work it doesn't work and then you know a VM is the way forward. If it does work then you are up and running in less time than it takes to boot a VM :)
A VM boots in seconds (from SSD) but my Windows XP VM is always running so Windows is a mouseclick away. Schematics and PCB design work just fine in the VM as well.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline timb

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I’ve actually found using a VM with good USB logging capabilities can be very, very helpful when writing software for an embedded
USB stack. Also for reverse engineering protocols and hacking devices. It makes it super easy to monitor the traffic flow. [emoji4]

Better than, for example, using Wireshark?

At the very least I find it’s easier to setup and much less intrusive, since you don’t need any custom drivers or low level modifications to the system (which all of the useful USB logging apps I’ve seen require).

It removes that additional abstraction layer, so I’ve found it’s less likely to interfere with what you’re trying to debug.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 


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