Author Topic: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.  (Read 14704 times)

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Offline etiTopic starter

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2021, 11:05:47 pm »
Fairphone = Android, Android = Google, and Google = the MASTERS of lacking ethics and spying, the GRAND masters of everything "woke" and devious.

A rather generic and inaccurate comment based on nothing more than opinion I would suggest.

If you want facts: Apple devices actually collect and store more user information, including user interaction than Android devices. iPhones are an absolute treasure trove of granular detail if you're the type of person interested in delving into things like the knowledgec.db database.

The VERY pertinent difference being in the way iOS is locked down hard and tight, and the ethics of the company that make the devices. Of the two companies, it should be VERY clear which one should trust more. I have been an Apple user and done HUGE amounts of research over the years - pertinently from a known security expert you might have heard of - Steve Gibson of GRC.com (and if you don't know him, do some listening to his podcasts - he's a man of legendary status in the security field)

iOS security in INSANE levels of detail, from one that knows what is what in this area:



 
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Online Halcyon

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2021, 11:10:20 pm »
iOS security in INSANE levels of detail, from one that knows what is what in this area

Thanks. You might also like to know that I have over 20 years of experience in the field, including a Master's degree and I regularly give expert evidence on these kinds of matters in high level courts. I also teach on the subject at Universities across Australia.

I'm not suggesting that Apple isn't a relatively secure handset (particularly when regular users are concerned), what I am disputing is your claim that Android/Google is somehow more "evil" and spies on their users without consent, when that is simply incorrect. You might also like to do some research into Google Workspace and how those services differ from the free Google accounts.

What is far more concerning are third-party applications and custom firmware that certain manufacturers include with their handsets, rather than just the stock Android/Google services.

As for the information that Google openly collects, you do realise Apple does the same?
 

Offline Fixed_Until_Broken

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2021, 11:18:00 pm »
Your tone is not conducive to a productive discussion.
...
can you not be polite please?
I am just using your own words. What's not productive is the fact that you completely ignoring the very valid points being made. You title your post with a baseless claim that the phone is nonsense with nothing to back it up. You have provided no argument whatsoever.  you have mentioned iPhone more than you have mentioned fair phone. There is no discussion to be had because there is nothing in the world anyone is going to say that changes your mind. Prove me wrong, What could I say to change your mind that Fair phone isn't "Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense. ". You made it clear from the very title you chose your mind is made up. So I am here to drag you not to change your mind. You are wrong it's plain and simple. I don't need to change your mind.

Your title should be "I only want an iPhone and You Can't Change My Mind"

PS why do you want me to not be polite?
 
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Offline HobGoblyn

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2021, 11:20:07 pm »
Say everything about the mission statement of the company, etc. The phone seems to be very easily repairable, with very fair specifications and price.

Watched a Louis Rossmann vid about them today, while they make it easy enough to swap hardware, they will not provide schematics, hence they haven’t really made it easy to repair at component level.

https://youtu.be/fhLtyrRwGcg
 

Offline etiTopic starter

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2021, 11:25:51 pm »
Your tone is not conducive to a productive discussion.
...
can you not be polite please?
I am just using your own words. What's not productive is the fact that you completely ignoring the very valid points being made. You title your post with a baseless claim that the phone is nonsense with nothing to back it up. You have provided no argument whatsoever.  you have mentioned iPhone more than you have mentioned fair phone. There is no discussion to be had because there is nothing in the world anyone is going to say that changes your mind. Prove me wrong, What could I say to change your mind that Fair phone isn't "Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense. ". You made it clear from the very title you chose your mind is made up. So I am here to drag you not to change your mind. You are wrong it's plain and simple. I don't need to change your mind.

Your title should be "I only want an iPhone and You Can't Change My Mind"

PS why do you want me to not be polite? <<<---

I have better things to do that "convince" you. Do your own drawing of conclusions - your choice what you believe. Have a nice day.

"Can you not be polite?" is asking if you're able to be polite - English grammar, I can see it is a little confusing, having read it back.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 11:34:00 pm by eti »
 

Offline Fixed_Until_Broken

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2021, 11:56:28 pm »
I have better things to do that "convince" you. Do your own drawing of conclusions - your choice what you believe. Have a nice day.
If you are not here to convince someone of your baseless claim that the phone is nonsense then what was the point of your "discussion"? You have made it clear you aren't here to have your mind changed. So why did you even start this topic at all?

You currently haven't even attempted to answer any direct questions asked, not even one as simple as "What could I say to change your mind that Fair phone isn't "Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense. "".

The facts are:
-The phone has respectable specs at a reasonable cost.
-It offers a longer manufacture warranty than most
-It is respectable for a company to use Fairtrade Gold
-It is respectable for them to go through the effort of using 100% Recycled plastic
-The bootloader not being locked means you actually own your device

The only spot I see worth taking away marks is the fact that they aren't providing schematics for component-level repair. It's a step in the right direction that they at least made an easy to open device. It's just not there without schematics to call it " Right To Repair Friendly" but it's about as close as you are getting at the moment... without building your own pi phone lol.

It is for sure not an ego massaging marketing con job as you suggest. To be clear I do not own one and I recently got a new phone so I won't be upgrading soon. I just find what they did to be respectable and a step towards a sustainable future. It's not the answer but it's closer than Iphone or Samsung have been making.
 
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Offline etiTopic starter

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2021, 12:05:58 am »
I have better things to do that "convince" you. Do your own drawing of conclusions - your choice what you believe. Have a nice day.
If you are not here to convince someone of your baseless claim that the phone is nonsense then what was the point of your "discussion"? You have made it clear you aren't here to have your mind changed. So why did you even start this topic at all?

You currently haven't even attempted to answer any direct questions asked, not even one as simple as "What could I say to change your mind that Fair phone isn't "Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense. "".

The facts are:
-The phone has respectable specs at a reasonable cost.
-It offers a longer manufacture warranty than most
-It is respectable for a company to use Fairtrade Gold
-It is respectable for them to go through the effort of using 100% Recycled plastic
-The bootloader not being locked means you actually own your device

The only spot I see worth taking away marks is the fact that they aren't providing schematics for component-level repair. It's a step in the right direction that they at least made an easy to open device. It's just not there without schematics to call it " Right To Repair Friendly" but it's about as close as you are getting at the moment... without building your own pi phone lol.

It is for sure not an ego massaging marketing con job as you suggest. To be clear I do not own one and I recently got a new phone so I won't be upgrading soon. I just find what they did to be respectable and a step towards a sustainable future. It's not the answer but it's closer than Iphone or Samsung have been making.

I posted an article, with my opinion of the aims of the device - I am under no "obligation" to spend hours on fruitless, tedious debates. I pasted a link - you and others discuss away, I post things you might find interesting. Don't be a thundering bore.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2021, 01:02:29 am »
Say everything about the mission statement of the company, etc. The phone seems to be very easily repairable, with very fair specifications and price.

Watched a Louis Rossmann vid about them today, while they make it easy enough to swap hardware, they will not provide schematics, hence they haven’t really made it easy to repair at component level.

https://youtu.be/fhLtyrRwGcg
Yes, despite this, it is quite an excellent phone moving on the right direction. Glued and curved screens (a great deal of the repairs) and glued or enclosed batteries are huge steps backwards that are addressed by this phone.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2021, 01:41:15 am »
The curved screen trend I really don't get. We spent decades trying to make screens as flat as possible, then when we finally have completely flat screens with nice square corners we start making them curved again because we can? I hate the notches and holes in screens too, I don't really grasp the point of the "all screen" phone. A screen that is all there, uninterrupted, and not compromised by a chunk cut out of it is far superior than a screen that spans edge to edge. Bezels have a purpose, it gives you something to hold onto and frames the display. When people hang a painting or photo on the wall they usually put it in a frame for the same reason.
 
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Offline Simon

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2021, 04:57:02 am »
Your tone is not conducive to a productive discussion.
...
can you not be polite please?
I am just using your own words. What's not productive is the fact that you completely ignoring the very valid points being made. You title your post with a baseless claim that the phone is nonsense with nothing to back it up. You have provided no argument whatsoever.  you have mentioned iPhone more than you have mentioned fair phone. There is no discussion to be had because there is nothing in the world anyone is going to say that changes your mind. Prove me wrong, What could I say to change your mind that Fair phone isn't "Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense. ". You made it clear from the very title you chose your mind is made up. So I am here to drag you not to change your mind. You are wrong it's plain and simple. I don't need to change your mind.

Your title should be "I only want an iPhone and You Can't Change My Mind"

PS why do you want me to not be polite? <<<---

I have better things to do that "convince" you. Do your own drawing of conclusions - your choice what you believe. Have a nice day.

"Can you not be polite?" is asking if you're able to be polite - English grammar, I can see it is a little confusing, having read it back.

Your thread seems to be all about convincing! All companies collect data, they all do it for one reason: to make more money or to inform their next products. Get used to it. What counts as spying seems to be a matter of personal definition these days.
 

Online Halcyon

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2021, 05:06:08 am »
Your thread seems to be all about convincing! All companies collect data, they all do it for one reason: to make more money or to inform their next products. Get used to it. What counts as spying seems to be a matter of personal definition these days.

Precisely. I'll also add that this kind of data collection happens with the user's consent. If you don't want certain data to be collected about you, either modify the preferences or use an alternative service. If something is free, companies aren't doing it out the of the goodness of their heart, they are doing it as a service to which to expect some kind of return.

This is why I pay the $9/month for Google Workspace, so that my emails aren't scanned for content and I have granular control over individual Google services.
 

Offline etiTopic starter

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2021, 05:20:33 am »
Your thread seems to be all about convincing! All companies collect data, they all do it for one reason: to make more money or to inform their next products. Get used to it. What counts as spying seems to be a matter of personal definition these days.

Precisely. I'll also add that this kind of data collection happens with the user's consent. If you don't want certain data to be collected about you, either modify the preferences or use an alternative service. If something is free, companies aren't doing it out the of the goodness of their heart, they are doing it as a service to which to expect some kind of return.

This is why I pay the $9/month for Google Workspace, so that my emails aren't scanned for content and I have granular control over individual Google services.

You’re possibly naive if you believe Google when they say that. They’re not known for honesty or morality.
 
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Offline Simon

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2021, 05:21:52 am »
Yea, I use youtube premium, I don't understand why people, well I do understand, the majority are idiots. We got spoiled with free stuff too stupid to think "who pays for this?" and just expect it all for free. I am a fan of paying for what I use and and not being treated like shit or having my time wasted.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2021, 05:26:27 am »
Your thread seems to be all about convincing! All companies collect data, they all do it for one reason: to make more money or to inform their next products. Get used to it. What counts as spying seems to be a matter of personal definition these days.

Precisely. I'll also add that this kind of data collection happens with the user's consent. If you don't want certain data to be collected about you, either modify the preferences or use an alternative service. If something is free, companies aren't doing it out the of the goodness of their heart, they are doing it as a service to which to expect some kind of return.

This is why I pay the $9/month for Google Workspace, so that my emails aren't scanned for content and I have granular control over individual Google services.

You’re possibly naive if you believe Google when they say that. They’re not known for honesty or morality.

I just spilled coffee on the desk.
iratus parum formica
 

Online Halcyon

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2021, 05:30:17 am »
Your thread seems to be all about convincing! All companies collect data, they all do it for one reason: to make more money or to inform their next products. Get used to it. What counts as spying seems to be a matter of personal definition these days.

Precisely. I'll also add that this kind of data collection happens with the user's consent. If you don't want certain data to be collected about you, either modify the preferences or use an alternative service. If something is free, companies aren't doing it out the of the goodness of their heart, they are doing it as a service to which to expect some kind of return.

This is why I pay the $9/month for Google Workspace, so that my emails aren't scanned for content and I have granular control over individual Google services.

You’re possibly naive if you believe Google when they say that. They’re not known for honesty or morality.

It's called the law (in many countries) and there are strict rules on what companies can and can't do with your private information. But as I said, you as the user consent to it. If you don't know what you've agreed to, well, that's purely on you.

But it's not just about "believing Google" it's based on my own, expert experience. What were your qualifications again? Watching Youtube?
 
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Offline etiTopic starter

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2021, 06:02:29 am »
Okay.
 

Offline HobGoblyn

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2021, 08:02:18 am »
Yea, I use youtube premium, I don't understand why people, well I do understand, the majority are idiots. We got spoiled with free stuff too stupid to think "who pays for this?" and just expect it all for free. I am a fan of paying for what I use and and not being treated like shit or having my time wasted.

I pay for YouTube too. Could never go back to the free version.
 

Online Halcyon

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2021, 08:08:08 am »
Yea, I use youtube premium, I don't understand why people, well I do understand, the majority are idiots. We got spoiled with free stuff too stupid to think "who pays for this?" and just expect it all for free. I am a fan of paying for what I use and and not being treated like shit or having my time wasted.

I pay for YouTube too. Could never go back to the free version.

I admittedly don't pay for Youtube but most of my viewing is done on the computer, so it's easy to block all ads. I'm slowly moving more of my viewing over to Odysee.
 

Offline thinkfat

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2021, 11:48:36 am »
PS: Normal people don’t care about the hippy dippy “open source” virtue signalling - they rarely would ever know what it means, and good for them - they want it TO WORK WELL, and they want and need superb support, and to know that they’re not the sole person in their entire life that owns this thing, so that someone can help them.

I have to disagree. I consider myself a "normal person" albeit educated and experienced in tech. [...]

Aand you can stop right there. A "normal person" is not educated and experienced in "tech".

As a matter of fact, nobody on this forum can be regarded a "normal person". Moderators doubly so.
Everybody likes gadgets. Until they try to make them.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2021, 11:50:50 am »
PS: Normal people don’t care about the hippy dippy “open source” virtue signalling - they rarely would ever know what it means, and good for them - they want it TO WORK WELL, and they want and need superb support, and to know that they’re not the sole person in their entire life that owns this thing, so that someone can help them.

I have to disagree. I consider myself a "normal person" albeit educated and experienced in tech. [...]

Aand you can stop right there. A "normal person" is not educated and experienced in "tech".

As a matter of fact, nobody on this forum can be regarded a "normal person". Moderators doubly so.

You are right, I am not normal, but not because I am a moderator :)
 

Offline thinkfat

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2021, 11:54:47 am »
PS: Normal people don’t care about the hippy dippy “open source” virtue signalling - they rarely would ever know what it means, and good for them - they want it TO WORK WELL, and they want and need superb support, and to know that they’re not the sole person in their entire life that owns this thing, so that someone can help them.

I have to disagree. I consider myself a "normal person" albeit educated and experienced in tech. [...]

Aand you can stop right there. A "normal person" is not educated and experienced in "tech".

As a matter of fact, nobody on this forum can be regarded a "normal person". Moderators doubly so.

You are right, I am not normal, but not because I am a moderator :)

Yes, because it's the other way 'round  ;)
Everybody likes gadgets. Until they try to make them.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2021, 12:25:40 pm »
Providing updates for old devices is actually interesting for them. If they forced you to buy a new device, you might change to android, whereas updating old devices ensures continuing receiving app purchase fees from those users.
Yes, it's in Apple's interest to keep you as a customer.

hat motivation doesn’t exist for manufacturers of android devices, as they don’t receive money from apps purchased in old phones
Huh? What does the brand of your old phone matter? Apple makes its money on app sales at the time of purchase, that's it. Whether it's on a new or old iPhone is irrelevant.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2021, 12:30:37 pm »
Say what one will about Apple, they’re really good about providing mobile OS upgrades for far, far longer than the rest of the industry!

IMHO they have a history of updating mobile devices about one version beyond where they should have stopped. My old iPhone 4 became nearly useless once it was updated beyond iOS 6, I'm still irked about that frankly, I haven't liked the look of any later version of iOS nearly as well as 6 and earlier either.
I'm in total agreement with you about the look.

I think it was iOS 10 or 11 that really slowed down the iPhone 6 I had at the time. But iOS 12 brought all the speed right back. I haven't found any subsequent iOS upgrade to cause a noticeable loss in speed. What I have noticed is a bit more memory use, sometimes leading to longer time switching between apps if it's had to close it in the background.

What I have noticed over time, just as Ranayna said, is websites becoming pigs that are unable to perform adequately on older devices, whether mobile or otherwise. Facebook's current website is basically unusable on my 2012 MacBook. But website bloat is a topic of its own… :::snarl:::
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2021, 12:35:09 pm »
Fairphone = Android, Android = Google, and Google = the MASTERS of lacking ethics and spying, the GRAND masters of everything "woke" and devious.
It's quite easy to take Google out of Android, without disassembling or rooting the device.
https://gitlab.com/W1nst0n/universal-android-debloater
I have never heard of anyone managing to take Apple out of iOS.
You can disable iCloud, all the telemetry/reporting, and all the other Apple services (other than iOS updates and initial device activation). In theory, you could run it entirely using other cloud services like Google, or your own IMAP, calendar, etc. But it definitely wouldn't be as nicely integrated, and you'd be limited to the preinstalled apps only, for lack of an alternative app store.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2021, 12:38:14 pm »
iOS security in INSANE levels of detail, from one that knows what is what in this area

Thanks. You might also like to know that I have over 20 years of experience in the field, including a Master's degree and I regularly give expert evidence on these kinds of matters in high level courts. I also teach on the subject at Universities across Australia.

I'm not suggesting that Apple isn't a relatively secure handset (particularly when regular users are concerned), what I am disputing is your claim that Android/Google is somehow more "evil" and spies on their users without consent, when that is simply incorrect. You might also like to do some research into Google Workspace and how those services differ from the free Google accounts.

What is far more concerning are third-party applications and custom firmware that certain manufacturers include with their handsets, rather than just the stock Android/Google services.

As for the information that Google openly collects, you do realise Apple does the same?
Apple is also transparent about what it collects. The difference is that the vast majority of the data collected on iOS is used on-device only, and doesn't get sent anywhere. In contrast, Google collects data for the purpose of tracking you across the internet, and selling data to third parties. The amount isn't what matters as much as what's done with it.
 
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