Author Topic: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.  (Read 14702 times)

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Offline tooki

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2021, 12:44:22 pm »
The curved screen trend I really don't get. We spent decades trying to make screens as flat as possible, then when we finally have completely flat screens with nice square corners we start making them curved again because we can?
RIGHT???!? I am puzzled by the curved screen lunacy. I guess flat screens made it too easy to avoid reflections, so let's use curved screens that always reflect something?!? (And take more room.)

(Round corners, however, I kinda like.)

I hate the notches and holes in screens too, I don't really grasp the point of the "all screen" phone. A screen that is all there, uninterrupted, and not compromised by a chunk cut out of it is far superior than a screen that spans edge to edge. Bezels have a purpose, it gives you something to hold onto and frames the display. When people hang a painting or photo on the wall they usually put it in a frame for the same reason.
Well, I think picture frames primarily served the purposes of covering the ugly edges of painted canvases, and of providing a strong attachment point. The proliferation of borderless photo frames (and posters, which are typically put up frameless) kinda undermines the argument of them needing a visual frame.

Bezels, on the other hand, serve a very real purpose in handheld devices, totally in agreement with you.
 
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Offline Just_another_Dave

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2021, 01:06:32 pm »
Providing updates for old devices is actually interesting for them. If they forced you to buy a new device, you might change to android, whereas updating old devices ensures continuing receiving app purchase fees from those users.
Yes, it's in Apple's interest to keep you as a customer.

hat motivation doesn’t exist for manufacturers of android devices, as they don’t receive money from apps purchased in old phones
Huh? What does the brand of your old phone matter? Apple makes its money on app sales at the time of purchase, that's it. Whether it's on a new or old iPhone is irrelevant.

Unless you buy apps from your manufacturer’s App Store (samsung, huawei, Xiaomi, etc), they don’t get a cut of the sales made by any of their phones (as far as I know). That reduces the interest on updating their devices, as just selling new ones generates revenue for them (Google is the one that receives a fee when android apps are bought)
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2021, 01:57:22 pm »
Providing updates for old devices is actually interesting for them. If they forced you to buy a new device, you might change to android, whereas updating old devices ensures continuing receiving app purchase fees from those users.
Yes, it's in Apple's interest to keep you as a customer.

hat motivation doesn’t exist for manufacturers of android devices, as they don’t receive money from apps purchased in old phones
Huh? What does the brand of your old phone matter? Apple makes its money on app sales at the time of purchase, that's it. Whether it's on a new or old iPhone is irrelevant.

Unless you buy apps from your manufacturer’s App Store (samsung, huawei, Xiaomi, etc), they don’t get a cut of the sales made by any of their phones (as far as I know). That reduces the interest on updating their devices, as just selling new ones generates revenue for them (Google is the one that receives a fee when android apps are bought)
Well yeah, I get that. But they don't get app revenue period, regardless of whether you buy the app on your old phone or the new one. Your wording just threw me off, making me think you meant something else.
 

Offline Just_another_Dave

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2021, 02:04:18 pm »
Providing updates for old devices is actually interesting for them. If they forced you to buy a new device, you might change to android, whereas updating old devices ensures continuing receiving app purchase fees from those users.
Yes, it's in Apple's interest to keep you as a customer.

hat motivation doesn’t exist for manufacturers of android devices, as they don’t receive money from apps purchased in old phones
Huh? What does the brand of your old phone matter? Apple makes its money on app sales at the time of purchase, that's it. Whether it's on a new or old iPhone is irrelevant.

Unless you buy apps from your manufacturer’s App Store (samsung, huawei, Xiaomi, etc), they don’t get a cut of the sales made by any of their phones (as far as I know). That reduces the interest on updating their devices, as just selling new ones generates revenue for them (Google is the one that receives a fee when android apps are bought)
Well yeah, I get that. But they don't get app revenue period, regardless of whether you buy the app on your old phone or the new one. Your wording just threw me off, making me think you meant something else.

I realized that my wording could lead to confusions when I saw your message. By old phones I meant already sold ones
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2021, 02:42:53 pm »
Providing updates for old devices is actually interesting for them. If they forced you to buy a new device, you might change to android, whereas updating old devices ensures continuing receiving app purchase fees from those users. That motivation doesn’t exist for manufacturers of android devices, as they don’t receive money from apps purchased in old phones

And then there's the last major update for the old device that renders it uselessly slow. The only alternative is to buy a new device :)
 
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Offline Just_another_Dave

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2021, 02:56:55 pm »
Providing updates for old devices is actually interesting for them. If they forced you to buy a new device, you might change to android, whereas updating old devices ensures continuing receiving app purchase fees from those users. That motivation doesn’t exist for manufacturers of android devices, as they don’t receive money from apps purchased in old phones

And then there's the last major update for the old device that renders it uselessly slow. The only alternative is to buy a new device :)

Yep, it should be always possible to install previous versions
 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2021, 03:14:54 pm »
The curved screen trend I really don't get. We spent decades trying to make screens as flat as possible, then when we finally have completely flat screens with nice square corners we start making them curved again because we can?
RIGHT???!? I am puzzled by the curved screen lunacy. I guess flat screens made it too easy to avoid reflections, so let's use curved screens that always reflect something?!? (And take more room.)
I have a Samsung S9 and its curved screen is useless to me. If anything, it increases the chances of glass breakage by 1000% as the phone shells available leave its sides completely unprotected.

As for bezels, indeed they are useful - if anything, the grease of your fingers (when pressing the side buttons) do not get in the viewable area of the display.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2021, 06:22:46 pm »
Well, I think picture frames primarily served the purposes of covering the ugly edges of painted canvases, and of providing a strong attachment point. The proliferation of borderless photo frames (and posters, which are typically put up frameless) kinda undermines the argument of them needing a visual frame.

Bezels, on the other hand, serve a very real purpose in handheld devices, totally in agreement with you.

I certainly think a picture looks better in a frame, if only a minimal one. I'm really not a fan of the borderless fad, it has proliferated UI design too, objects just floating in a sea of whitespace with separating them. It's a fad like any other, and I've always hated fads.
 

Online Halcyon

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2021, 06:59:42 pm »
iOS security in INSANE levels of detail, from one that knows what is what in this area

Thanks. You might also like to know that I have over 20 years of experience in the field, including a Master's degree and I regularly give expert evidence on these kinds of matters in high level courts. I also teach on the subject at Universities across Australia.

I'm not suggesting that Apple isn't a relatively secure handset (particularly when regular users are concerned), what I am disputing is your claim that Android/Google is somehow more "evil" and spies on their users without consent, when that is simply incorrect. You might also like to do some research into Google Workspace and how those services differ from the free Google accounts.

What is far more concerning are third-party applications and custom firmware that certain manufacturers include with their handsets, rather than just the stock Android/Google services.

As for the information that Google openly collects, you do realise Apple does the same?
Apple is also transparent about what it collects. The difference is that the vast majority of the data collected on iOS is used on-device only, and doesn't get sent anywhere. In contrast, Google collects data for the purpose of tracking you across the internet, and selling data to third parties. The amount isn't what matters as much as what's done with it.

Whilst true, I'll say this again, it happens with the consent of the user. If you don't want your phone listening to your words and displaying relevant ads, simply disable it. I've also mentioned this before but there is a huge difference between pairing your phone with a free Google account, or a corporate/Google Workspace account. Both very different beasts. Although they look the same on the surface, they are two completely different and seperate products from Google and behave differently.

Google is actually one of the few providers (as well as Microsoft and Amazon) whose services are approved by the Australian government to handle protected and sensitive information (to a certain level, there are a few caveats however, such as the data must reside on Australian servers etc...)
 

Offline etiTopic starter

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2021, 07:21:07 pm »
iOS security in INSANE levels of detail, from one that knows what is what in this area

Thanks. You might also like to know that I have over 20 years of experience in the field, including a Master's degree and I regularly give expert evidence on these kinds of matters in high level courts. I also teach on the subject at Universities across Australia.

I'm not suggesting that Apple isn't a relatively secure handset (particularly when regular users are concerned), what I am disputing is your claim that Android/Google is somehow more "evil" and spies on their users without consent, when that is simply incorrect. You might also like to do some research into Google Workspace and how those services differ from the free Google accounts.

What is far more concerning are third-party applications and custom firmware that certain manufacturers include with their handsets, rather than just the stock Android/Google services.

As for the information that Google openly collects, you do realise Apple does the same?
Apple is also transparent about what it collects. The difference is that the vast majority of the data collected on iOS is used on-device only, and doesn't get sent anywhere. In contrast, Google collects data for the purpose of tracking you across the internet, and selling data to third parties. The amount isn't what matters as much as what's done with it.

You worded it succinctly, this was precisely what I'd meant, but failed to convey. I trust Apple - they have a vibe of decency about them, the likes of which Google have never demonstrated (which is highly ironic, since they used to have a brand catchphrase "don't be evil" - LOL - more than likely a pre-emptive, clumsy attempt to convince people of their supposed lack of any current or future wrongdoing, in the same, naive way a child who has stolen a biscuit, protests "IT WASN'T ME! I DIDN'T STEAL THE BISCUIT MUMMY!" before she's even asked "who has stolen a biscuit?".) Google's interest is in selling DATA, Apple's interest is in selling DEVICES, and the privacy of those to whom it sells them.

Additonally - what with this "FairPhone" (cheesy name or what) being so "open" and (apparently...) easy to repair and upgrade, what's to stop a third party vendor of cloned hardware components that look and feel the same but contain surveillance capabilities, from selling them to repair shops/whomever? There's a system in iOS called the "chain of trust" which is well documented, the likes of which are above my pay grade, but in essence, every part of the boot and authentication process are signed and hashed (again, I may be using terminology incorrectly - cryptography is NOT my field) - suffice it to say. it's VERY secure, and is why Apple frown upon third party repair (and rightly so FOR THIS REASON - they like to work with a known quantity, and once Sahid on a shady Dubai market has fiddled with it, who knows what it is doing!)

People moan and whine about iOS devices not being repairable, but they seem to wilfully (or in ignorance) overlook one VERY simple fact - the third-party replacement parts you want to install, might have be of dubious origin, and perform dubious acts - an uninformed, not particularly highly skilled man on a Saturday market, changing your phone microphone or screen, may be, in all ignorance and probably all innocence, compromising the device which - beforehand - was secure.

People LOVE to say "But it's my phone and I am willing to take the risk" - YES. BUT ONE DAY YOU WILL PROBABLY SELL THAT PHONE OR GIVE IT AWAY - when it goes wrong for the next person, or if their phone calls/data/whatever are LEAKED OUT, guess who they will blame? Apple, a VERY high profile target who people LOVE to whinge about, and it is ammunition for precisely that. I see the frustration with not being able to easily repair certain devices, but I see why Apple do it
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 07:45:01 pm by eti »
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2021, 08:40:57 pm »
Watched a Louis Rossmann vid about them today, while they make it easy enough to swap hardware, they will not provide schematics, hence they haven’t really made it easy to repair at component level.

Having purchasable modules that can be swapped out and tested quickly does make it much easier to repair at a component level.
Still not ideal as listing a BOM and schematic though, yeah.
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Offline Fixed_Until_Broken

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2021, 11:58:21 pm »

There's a system in iOS called the "chain of trust"

People moan and whine about iOS devices not being repairable, but they seem to wilfully (or in ignorance) overlook one VERY simple fact - the third-party replacement parts you want to install, might have be of dubious origin, and perform dubious acts - an uninformed, not particularly highly skilled man on a Saturday market, changing your phone microphone or screen, may be, in all ignorance and probably all innocence, compromising the device which - beforehand - was secure.

Yes, People moan and complain about apple because they make repair harder in the name of "security". An example of such would be locking you out of the bootloader. But this amazing "security" has been defeated by tools like checkm8. They also serialize parts in the name of "security" but this is the same type of "security" that the TSA offers. It's known as a security circus or security theatre. basically, no real security is added by serializing the screen, battery, or camera. If I can make a device that can spy on you I can make a device that can spoof a serial number. serializing parts is not securing anything at all. BTW don't believe me there are tools on the market for cloning apple serial numbers right now.

You are yet to make a valid point. keep reaching.

Please do not bash 3rd party repair when you clearly do not understand one bit of what you are talking about. You are slandering the hard work of many businesses with more baseless claims. It is outright egregious to claim 3rd party repair will compromise your device.
"Any fool can speculate, most of them do"... The quote is actually "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain-and most fools do" by the way
« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 12:12:30 am by Fixed_Until_Broken »
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2021, 09:42:46 am »
Apple is also transparent about what it collects. The difference is that the vast majority of the data collected on iOS is used on-device only, and doesn't get sent anywhere. In contrast, Google collects data for the purpose of tracking you across the internet, and selling data to third parties. The amount isn't what matters as much as what's done with it.

Whilst true, I'll say this again, it happens with the consent of the user. If you don't want your phone listening to your words and displaying relevant ads, simply disable it.
Well, “consent” obtained somewhere in the bowels of a EULA, and which is not easy to disable if you change your mind. And I don’t think it’s actually entirely possible to stop Google from stalking you across the internet.

Apple asks for explicit consent up-front during the setup process. They’re much more transparent about it. (And again, separate consent to send data off-device to do things for you, or to send bug reports to developers, and anonymized usage patterns to Apple. None of it is used for advertising or sold to third parties.)

I've also mentioned this before but there is a huge difference between pairing your phone with a free Google account, or a corporate/Google Workspace account. Both very different beasts. Although they look the same on the surface, they are two completely different and seperate products from Google and behave differently.

Google is actually one of the few providers (as well as Microsoft and Amazon) whose services are approved by the Australian government to handle protected and sensitive information (to a certain level, there are a few caveats however, such as the data must reside on Australian servers etc...)
That may be so for their paid hosted services, but you can’t pay your way out of Google tracking you around the internet to show ads.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2021, 09:51:38 am »

There's a system in iOS called the "chain of trust"

People moan and whine about iOS devices not being repairable, but they seem to wilfully (or in ignorance) overlook one VERY simple fact - the third-party replacement parts you want to install, might have be of dubious origin, and perform dubious acts - an uninformed, not particularly highly skilled man on a Saturday market, changing your phone microphone or screen, may be, in all ignorance and probably all innocence, compromising the device which - beforehand - was secure.

Yes, People moan and complain about apple because they make repair harder in the name of "security". An example of such would be locking you out of the bootloader. But this amazing "security" has been defeated by tools like checkm8. They also serialize parts in the name of "security" but this is the same type of "security" that the TSA offers. It's known as a security circus or security theatre. basically, no real security is added by serializing the screen, battery, or camera. If I can make a device that can spy on you I can make a device that can spoof a serial number. serializing parts is not securing anything at all. BTW don't believe me there are tools on the market for cloning apple serial numbers right now.

You are yet to make a valid point. keep reaching.

Please do not bash 3rd party repair when you clearly do not understand one bit of what you are talking about. You are slandering the hard work of many businesses with more baseless claims. It is outright egregious to claim 3rd party repair will compromise your device.
"Any fool can speculate, most of them do"... The quote is actually "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain-and most fools do" by the way
I don’t think the hardware and firmware security is even distantly pointless, as you suggest it is. No, it’s not perfect. But it has served to keep iOS FAR more secure as a platform for a typical user. It’s impossible to know exactly how much it’s prevented, but I don’t think it’s farfetched to believe that without it, there would be a lot more malware, ransomware, etc. Not to mention that I think it’s a good thing that law enforcement doesn’t have ready access. Yeah, it eventually gets broken, but rarely right away.

And some things, like biometric security, really, really need to be done on secure hardware. Doing those on unsecured hardware is reckless.

What I do believe, however, is that Apple should become more open about providing original parts to whoever needs them.
 
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Online 2N3055

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Offline Simon

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2021, 11:52:58 am »

Well, “consent” obtained somewhere in the bowels of a EULA, and which is not easy to disable if you change your mind. And I don’t think it’s actually entirely possible to stop Google from stalking you across the internet.



Google != "the internet"

It's your choice when you use their search engine, any of their services or sign into an android phone with a google account.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2021, 12:52:12 pm »

Well, “consent” obtained somewhere in the bowels of a EULA, and which is not easy to disable if you change your mind. And I don’t think it’s actually entirely possible to stop Google from stalking you across the internet.



Google != "the internet"
No shit, Sherlock…

It's your choice when you use their search engine, any of their services or sign into an android phone with a google account.
But it’s not your choice whether other websites and apps embed Google services, like Google analytics and advertising, which will track you around even if you aren’t signed in to Google. The tracking networks are ruthless, piecing things together from whatever they find.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2021, 12:53:24 pm »
https://9to5mac.com/2021/01/28/apple-google-default-search-privacy/

Just trust Apple...   >:D
I’ll trust Apple way sooner than I’ll trust Google!
 
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Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2021, 01:20:59 pm »
I just want my AMPS bagphone back. 3 watts of transmit power and a battery that makes it past one day.  I'm not too fond of integrated batteries.

Instantaneous communication now rules my workday. Come fix this... I need that..  read reams of really senseless emails... For What...

Students at work walk around campus with their heads in phones.  If your driving a car you really have to watch out for them.

Arghh!!

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Online 2N3055

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2021, 01:51:17 pm »
https://9to5mac.com/2021/01/28/apple-google-default-search-privacy/

Just trust Apple...   >:D
I’ll trust Apple way sooner than I’ll trust Google!

Like a good Apple fanboy you didn't even read it did you?

Apple default browser default search engine IS Google.  Google apparently gets 9 billion of USD worth of Apple users private data, otherwise they wouldn't pay that much.
And Apple is happily selling it...

So yeah, they are all shit. At least Google is not "lie through the teeth" bigot like Apple.
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Offline tooki

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2021, 02:38:10 pm »
https://9to5mac.com/2021/01/28/apple-google-default-search-privacy/

Just trust Apple...   >:D
I’ll trust Apple way sooner than I’ll trust Google!

Like a good Apple fanboy you didn't even read it did you?

Apple default browser default search engine IS Google.  Google apparently gets 9 billion of USD worth of Apple users private data, otherwise they wouldn't pay that much.
And Apple is happily selling it...

So yeah, they are all shit. At least Google is not "lie through the teeth" bigot like Apple.
First of all, watch your tone, dude.

I did read it. But I also understood it. Google has been the default search engine since forever.

But that doesn’t mean Apple is selling user data it collected. Yes, leaving Google as the default means Google can collect more data, and clearly they think that’s worth the $9B. But that’s a very, very different thing from saying that Apple is selling data to Google, like Siri searches or map information.

You do realize that the entire reason Apple spent ungodly amounts of money developing Apple Maps is because to get Google maps turn-by-turn directions, they would have had to share user information with Google that Apple simply refused to do? If Apple didn’t care about privacy, they would have gone the easy route and just given Google the data. Instead they built an entire mapping infrastructure. If that’s not a commitment to user privacy, I don’t know what is.

There’s zero substance to your claim of Apple lying. (And calling them a “bigot” makes no sense whatsoever. A bigot is someone who holds prejudices, like a racist or sexist. You probably meant “hypocrite”, though there’s equally little evidence for that, either.)

Nobody is saying Apple is perfect. But I damned well trust Apple with privacy over Google. It takes raging, irrational hatred for Apple, or blind adulation for Google, to not understand that. Just about the only internet company I’d trust even less with privacy is Facebook, but I suppose that went without saying.)
 
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2021, 03:08:39 pm »
https://9to5mac.com/2021/01/28/apple-google-default-search-privacy/

Just trust Apple...   >:D
I’ll trust Apple way sooner than I’ll trust Google!

Like a good Apple fanboy you didn't even read it did you?

Apple default browser default search engine IS Google.  Google apparently gets 9 billion of USD worth of Apple users private data, otherwise they wouldn't pay that much.
And Apple is happily selling it...

So yeah, they are all shit. At least Google is not "lie through the teeth" bigot like Apple.
First of all, watch your tone, dude.

I did read it. But I also understood it. Google has been the default search engine since forever.

But that doesn’t mean Apple is selling user data it collected. Yes, leaving Google as the default means Google can collect more data, and clearly they think that’s worth the $9B. But that’s a very, very different thing from saying that Apple is selling data to Google, like Siri searches or map information.

You do realize that the entire reason Apple spent ungodly amounts of money developing Apple Maps is because to get Google maps turn-by-turn directions, they would have had to share user information with Google that Apple simply refused to do? If Apple didn’t care about privacy, they would have gone the easy route and just given Google the data. Instead they built an entire mapping infrastructure. If that’s not a commitment to user privacy, I don’t know what is.

There’s zero substance to your claim of Apple lying. (And calling them a “bigot” makes no sense whatsoever. A bigot is someone who holds prejudices, like a racist or sexist. You probably meant “hypocrite”, though there’s equally little evidence for that, either.)

Nobody is saying Apple is perfect. But I damned well trust Apple with privacy over Google. It takes raging, irrational hatred for Apple, or blind adulation for Google, to not understand that. Just about the only internet company I’d trust even less with privacy is Facebook, but I suppose that went without saying.)

Thank you for the English lesson. Yes I meant hypocrite. English is not my native language, sorry.

And here is one word for you : naïve.
I don't know you. All I have to go by are your words, and you speak Apple cool aid... If that offended you I'm sorry.
And, yes, they were caught lying many, many times.. 

I don't trust any of them. Apple, Google, Facebook whatever.  They are all money making corporations that have no morale at all. For them moral behavior is weakness that stands in a way of profit.
And Apple is hypocritical, because they say "they care for privacy". They don't. They care for public image (in service of making profit)  and if saying "they care for privacy" is creating them profit they are going to say it. And even be prepared to do something about it that is visible and looks good for their image.

They are receiving 9 billion USD from Google for something. And despite you waxing poetic about semantic differences between "letting Google get data that Apple collects" and "letting Google collecting data from Apple devices like they were surfing internet on Android" to the user it is the same. They get both Google and Apple spying on them. And Facebook if they use that one.

It's classic example of "follow the money".

"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2021, 03:33:26 pm »
Like a good Apple fanboy you didn't even read it did you?

Apple default browser default search engine IS Google.  Google apparently gets 9 billion of USD worth of Apple users private data, otherwise they wouldn't pay that much.
And Apple is happily selling it...

So yeah, they are all shit. At least Google is not "lie through the teeth" bigot like Apple.
First of all, watch your tone, dude.

I did read it. But I also understood it. Google has been the default search engine since forever.

But that doesn’t mean Apple is selling user data it collected. Yes, leaving Google as the default means Google can collect more data, and clearly they think that’s worth the $9B. But that’s a very, very different thing from saying that Apple is selling data to Google, like Siri searches or map information.

You do realize that the entire reason Apple spent ungodly amounts of money developing Apple Maps is because to get Google maps turn-by-turn directions, they would have had to share user information with Google that Apple simply refused to do? If Apple didn’t care about privacy, they would have gone the easy route and just given Google the data. Instead they built an entire mapping infrastructure. If that’s not a commitment to user privacy, I don’t know what is.

There’s zero substance to your claim of Apple lying. (And calling them a “bigot” makes no sense whatsoever. A bigot is someone who holds prejudices, like a racist or sexist. You probably meant “hypocrite”, though there’s equally little evidence for that, either.)

Nobody is saying Apple is perfect. But I damned well trust Apple with privacy over Google. It takes raging, irrational hatred for Apple, or blind adulation for Google, to not understand that. Just about the only internet company I’d trust even less with privacy is Facebook, but I suppose that went without saying.)

Thank you for the English lesson. Yes I meant hypocrite. English is not my native language, sorry.

And here is one word for you : naïve.
I don't know you. All I have to go by are your words, and you speak Apple cool aid... If that offended you I'm sorry.
And, yes, they were caught lying many, many times.. 

I don't trust any of them. Apple, Google, Facebook whatever.  They are all money making corporations that have no morale at all. For them moral behavior is weakness that stands in a way of profit.
And Apple is hypocritical, because they say "they care for privacy". They don't. They care for public image (in service of making profit)  and if saying "they care for privacy" is creating them profit they are going to say it. And even be prepared to do something about it that is visible and looks good for their image.

They are receiving 9 billion USD from Google for something. And despite you waxing poetic about semantic differences between "letting Google get data that Apple collects" and "letting Google collecting data from Apple devices like they were surfing internet on Android" to the user it is the same. They get both Google and Apple spying on them. And Facebook if they use that one.

It's classic example of "follow the money".
It is not naïveté (nor blind fandom) to question and reject the unfounded hysteria that’s often created around Apple. A huge portion of the accusations lobbed against Apple are plain and simply untrue (and fail even basic scrutiny).

It is absolutely not “waxing poetic” to have a nuanced, deep understanding of the huge difference between allowing Google to collect data (on the search engine that everyone would select even if it weren’t the default) vs actively sharing data with Google!! The data Apple could collect and share, but doesn’t, goes far beyond what Google can collect through web searches alone. Imagine if Apple shared your health data from your paired watch, or your location in real time, your contacts, or the contents of your text messages, or recordings of your phone calls, or the log of what words you type most often. (Apple doesn’t share any of those.) There would rightfully be outrage if they did that, because they’re in no way equivalent. What can be collected via web searches is bad enough. But these others would be just as bad, if not much worse, and Apple doesn’t share those.

As for motivations: on the one hand, who cares if money is the motivation for doing the right thing? If privacy is a way that Apple wants to set itself apart, is the end result not the same? Apple has been been slowly disentangling itself from Google, and has been working actively to undermine user data collection, both for others and itself. (For example, Siri requests are now processed on-device, not on Apple’s servers.) And they can’t lie about it, because they’re under constant scrutiny by outsiders keen to catch Apple in… anything. (Your lie about Apple being caught in lie after lie is proof of that.)

Now, I have good reason to believe that Apple does actually care about users, but as I said, even if “caring” is just a business decision, it only works if you back it up with the goods. And in that, they deliver.

(Except in the choice of Mac models, which hasn’t made me happy in a long time, and in the inexplicable move to unusable flat interfaces. Apple has made some real “wtf were they thinking?!?” decisions with those…)
 

Offline Caliaxy

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2021, 03:35:10 pm »
https://9to5mac.com/2021/01/28/apple-google-default-search-privacy/

Just trust Apple...   >:D
I’ll trust Apple way sooner than I’ll trust Google!

Like a good Apple fanboy you didn't even read it did you?

Apple default browser default search engine IS Google.  Google apparently gets 9 billion of USD worth of Apple users private data, otherwise they wouldn't pay that much.


Beyond being grossly exaggerated (Apple doesn't sell user's data per se, at least not the way inferred here, as already pointed out by others) this is not actually an issue.

Safari's default search engine out of the box is, indeed, Google. But it takes exactly three taps on the screen to change that for good (the fourth tap is choosing you preferred search engine).
 
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Offline rdl

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Re: Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.
« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2021, 04:19:22 pm »
These days you can't really use a wireless phone or the internet without being tracked/spied on to some degree. I can't remember the last time I visited a web site of any significance that didn't have google embedded in some way.
 
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