General > General Technical Chat

Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.

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Ed.Kloonk:

--- Quote from: tooki on October 15, 2021, 05:08:55 pm ---
In a nutshell: Apple’s product is goods and services, and its customers are end users. Google’s customers are advertisers, and its product is you. This is why Apple cares about end users, and Google doesn’t.


--- End quote ---

Sure, but Halcyon is saying that paying google makes instead your cash the product and not you. It's just very hard for some of us to believe they will honour that part of the deal. Even if they do, what isn't explained is to what extent.

When you email and converse with another person with a ordinary Gmail acct, Google would read the emails. But when does the payment for privacy take effect? Email aside, with all the tracking, how do they separate your random browsing from the enclave of privacy you've paid for?

tooki:

--- Quote from: Halcyon on October 15, 2021, 09:25:40 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on October 15, 2021, 10:11:40 am ---
--- Quote from: Halcyon on October 15, 2021, 03:30:22 am ---
--- Quote from: tooki on October 14, 2021, 09:42:46 am ---That may be so for their paid hosted services, but you can’t pay your way out of Google tracking you around the internet to show ads.

--- End quote ---

You absolutely can.

If you think Apple is somewhat more "trustworthy" than Google, you're sadly mistaken.

--- End quote ---
Sorry, but you’re dead wrong.

--- End quote ---

Gee, all this time I must have been imagining it then.

--- End quote ---
Probably. Or more likely, believing what people say without actually verifying the facts of the situation.

Much of the reporting about Apple is very inaccurate. (A perfect example: all the recent articles about how old Apple devices will start having trouble connecting to some websites due to some root certificate expiring. Yes, it’s technically true. But the lie-by-omission is that countless non-Apple devices of the same era are equally affected. Any device that hasn’t gotten an update in many years will have the issue. But badmouthing Apple gets more clicks…)

tooki:

--- Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 15, 2021, 09:30:02 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on October 15, 2021, 05:08:55 pm ---
In a nutshell: Apple’s product is goods and services, and its customers are end users. Google’s customers are advertisers, and its product is you. This is why Apple cares about end users, and Google doesn’t.


--- End quote ---
Sure, but Halcyon is saying that paying google makes instead your cash the product and not you. It's just very hard for some of us to believe they will honour that part of the deal. Even if they do, what isn't explained is to what extent.

When you email and converse with another person with a ordinary Gmail acct, Google would read the emails. But when does the payment for privacy take effect? Email aside, with all the tracking, how do they separate your random browsing from the enclave of privacy you've paid for?


--- End quote ---
But you can’t do that. You can pay for extra Google services, but outside of YouTube, you cannot pay to turn off ads and tracking. The Google Contributor program (which let you pay per-site to disable Google ads) was discontinued years ago, revived briefly, and then left to wither again. But there’s never been a program where you could, say, pay $20 a month and disable all Google ads and tracking across all websites.

Halcyon:

--- Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 15, 2021, 09:30:02 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on October 15, 2021, 05:08:55 pm ---
In a nutshell: Apple’s product is goods and services, and its customers are end users. Google’s customers are advertisers, and its product is you. This is why Apple cares about end users, and Google doesn’t.


--- End quote ---

Sure, but Halcyon is saying that paying google makes instead your cash the product and not you. It's just very hard for some of us to believe they will honour that part of the deal. Even if they do, what isn't explained is to what extent.

When you email and converse with another person with a ordinary Gmail acct, Google would read the emails. But when does the payment for privacy take effect? Email aside, with all the tracking, how do they separate your random browsing from the enclave of privacy you've paid for?

--- End quote ---

In a nutshell, yes. But don't just take my word for it, I encourage everyone to do some independent research. I know a Google engineer personally and he explained some of the inner workings to me. Although the familiar GUI is almost the same between free Google and Google Workspace, how it works under the hood is entirely different. Could you imagine if a company or government entity was using Google's services for confidential or sensitive things only to have it scanned or processed by something external? Google would lose all credibility in that market. It might be of interest to some, but Google actually passed the Australian Signals Directorate IRAP compliance for protected information and was listed listed on the Australian Cyber Security Centre's Certified Cloud Services List for government use (until the CCSL was discontinued last year).

Want to take a guess which company didn't make the list?


--- Quote from: tooki on October 15, 2021, 10:16:07 pm ---But you can’t do that. You can pay for extra Google services, but outside of YouTube, you cannot pay to turn off ads and tracking.

--- End quote ---

Yes, you absolutely can. I do that right now even on my personal domain (and no, I don't use Google Workspace for Youtube at all). The granularity of the settings in Google Workspace is pretty awesome, but even with free Google, you have control over just about everything. There are some things that you can't disable which come with the product. I do have to ask though Tooki, are you a Google user?

tooki:

--- Quote from: Halcyon on October 15, 2021, 10:32:06 pm ---
--- Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 15, 2021, 09:30:02 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on October 15, 2021, 05:08:55 pm ---
In a nutshell: Apple’s product is goods and services, and its customers are end users. Google’s customers are advertisers, and its product is you. This is why Apple cares about end users, and Google doesn’t.


--- End quote ---

Sure, but Halcyon is saying that paying google makes instead your cash the product and not you. It's just very hard for some of us to believe they will honour that part of the deal. Even if they do, what isn't explained is to what extent.

When you email and converse with another person with a ordinary Gmail acct, Google would read the emails. But when does the payment for privacy take effect? Email aside, with all the tracking, how do they separate your random browsing from the enclave of privacy you've paid for?

--- End quote ---

In a nutshell, yes. But don't just take my word for it, I encourage everyone to do some independent research. I know a Google engineer personally and he explained some of the inner workings to me. Although the familiar GUI is almost the same between free Google and Google Workspace, how it works under the hood is entirely different. Could you imagine if a company or government entity was using Google's services for confidential or sensitive things only to have it scanned or processed by something external? Google would lose all credibility in that market. It might be of interest to some, but Google actually passed the Australian Signals Directorate IRAP compliance for protected information and was listed listed on the Australian Cyber Security Centre's Certified Cloud Services List for government use (until the CCSL was discontinued last year).

Want to take a guess which company didn't make the list?


--- Quote from: tooki on October 15, 2021, 10:16:07 pm ---But you can’t do that. You can pay for extra Google services, but outside of YouTube, you cannot pay to turn off ads and tracking.

--- End quote ---

Yes, you absolutely can. I do that right now even on my personal domain (and no, I don't use Google Workspace for Youtube at all). The granularity of the settings in Google Workspace is pretty awesome, but even with free Google, you have control over just about everything. There are some things that you can't disable which come with the product. I do have to ask though Tooki, are you a Google user?

--- End quote ---
I think we are talking about completely different things.

You’re talking about things within a paid Google service. Of course it’s not going to show ads there. But having a Google workspace account isn’t going to stop Google ads elsewhere.

Yes, I use some Google services, where no alternative exists (or is massively inferior). Nothing paid.

Yes, Google lets you set many things granularly. But “don’t show me ads” and “don’t track me across the web” aren’t among them.


How one can think Apple is worse when it comes to data collection simply boggles the mind. (I’m not saying that Google is the worst, they’re absolutely not.)

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