General > General Technical Chat

Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.

<< < (20/27) > >>

Just_another_Dave:

--- Quote from: thinkfat on October 19, 2021, 01:02:23 pm ---
--- Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 16, 2021, 12:43:27 am ---
--- Quote from: thinkfat on October 15, 2021, 04:27:01 pm ---You'd have to be really hardcore about privacy if you accepted the near-complete loss of functionality that de-googling an Android phone brings along.

--- End quote ---
What do you lose other than the Google apps and services you never wanted to use to begin with? Then there's microG as a replacement.
https://microg.org/

--- End quote ---

You lose the "Play Store" and with it you lose all other apps, too. Apps are the single, most important feature that "make" a smartphone. Selling Android phones without Google stuff has been tried and everyone failed, and each time the reason was "no apps available".

If you want to keep using all the popular apps, you need to download them from sketchy servers, trading privacy for security (and you cannot have privacy without security).

As for Google services, they are valuable to many. Ad revenue is an important driver for content creators. YouTube is the best example. MicroG does not give you that.

So, you effectively get an expensive phone that does nothing a Nokia 6310 could not also do.

--- End quote ---

In order to allow the average user to use an android phone without android services, at least developers would need to provide installers for their apps that could be downloaded from their websites (as it happens with software developed for windows)

tooki:

--- Quote from: Halcyon on October 19, 2021, 10:03:03 am ---
--- Quote from: tooki on October 16, 2021, 01:42:59 pm ---
--- Quote from: Halcyon on October 16, 2021, 02:38:38 am ---
--- Quote from: tooki on October 15, 2021, 11:26:58 pm ---You’re talking about things within a paid Google service. Of course it’s not going to show ads there. But having a Google workspace account isn’t going to stop Google ads elsewhere.

--- End quote ---

Even with free Google services, it's not hard to either disable tracking(in some circumstances), block them, manipulate them or essentially anonymise them. It just depends on you, the user and what details you provide and how things are configured on your end. For example, logging into non-Google websites using your Facebook/Google/Apple/Whatever account is a terrible idea. If you have any care about privacy at all, you would never do this.

--- End quote ---
I still fail to see how any of that makes Apple less trustworthy with regards to privacy.

--- End quote ---

It doesn't. I also never claimed it did.

--- End quote ---
You strongly suggested it multiple times.



--- Quote from: Halcyon on October 19, 2021, 10:03:03 am ---I was just refuting some of your claims as an actual security researcher and someone who has worked in the field for years.

--- End quote ---
I don't think you did, because I don't think we are talking about the same thing at all. See below.



--- Quote from: Halcyon on October 19, 2021, 10:03:03 am ---All I am saying is they all use the same tactics and play all the same tricks.
--- End quote ---
But that's clearly not the case.



--- Quote from: Halcyon on October 19, 2021, 10:03:03 am ---Being an Apple user doesn't make you immune to any of it, just like you aren't immune to malware or phishing scams etc.... If you want to be in 100% complete control of all of your data and the infrastructure it sits on, then pay someone the big bucks or host your own services and hope that you don't accidentally misconfigure something.

--- End quote ---
Right, but the services are just a minor part of it. Apple actively fights against user tracking online. Google actively participates in said tracking. I don't think you've grasped that I am not particularly concerned with what happens within a Google service (like gmail) nor within an Apple service (like iCloud), but what happens outside of them.



--- Quote from: Halcyon on October 19, 2021, 10:03:03 am ---As for everything else I've mentioned, it's all easily verifiable in the public domain. Feel free to read up on it, or better yet, test it out for yourself.

--- End quote ---
Yes, but it's not relevant to what I've been talking about.

Halcyon:
 :palm:

Look, tooki, you do you. I really don't care if I change your views on things or manage to educate you even a little bit. I'm just discussing what I know. I refuse to enter into a pissing contest with anyone.

If you like your fruity phone, then you keep using it. No one, including myself is going to try to stop you.

tooki:

--- Quote from: Halcyon on October 19, 2021, 07:01:30 pm --- :palm:

Look, tooki, you do you. I really don't care if I change your views on things or manage to educate you even a little bit. I'm just discussing what I know. I refuse to enter into a pissing contest with anyone.

If you like your fruity phone, then you keep using it. No one, including myself is going to try to stop you.

--- End quote ---
You couldn't educate me because you haven't told me anything I didn't already know!

Your argument began with claiming that Apple collects a lot more data. Even if we accept that as true (which is uncertain but unknowable), it's data used for on-device learning. It's not used for advertising, it doesn't get sent to Apple or anyone else. As a user, you can opt-in to send crash reports and certain usage data to Apple and/or third-party app developers, but even that is anonymized.

You said it'd be a treasure trove if it fell into the wrong hands. Yes, absolutely! But to get to that database as a baddie, you have to defeat numerous layers of security. Key word here: security.

Privacy, which is what was being discussed prior to your comment, is not the same as security.

Google collects data from your online activities and uses it to sell ads. They actively work to de-anonymize you on the internet.


Yet you keep arguing about how personal data stored in a paid Google service is, in fact, secure, while refusing to address the privacy issues being discussed.


This is why I keep saying: it's apples and oranges.

So you don't get to condescendingly suggest I'm wrong and in need of education, when you keep discussing an entirely different topic.

NiHaoMike:

--- Quote from: thinkfat on October 19, 2021, 01:02:23 pm ---You lose the "Play Store" and with it you lose all other apps, too. Apps are the single, most important feature that "make" a smartphone. Selling Android phones without Google stuff has been tried and everyone failed, and each time the reason was "no apps available".

If you want to keep using all the popular apps, you need to download them from sketchy servers, trading privacy for security (and you cannot have privacy without security).
--- End quote ---
Look up "APK downloader" on Github and you'll find quite a few of those. Then there's F-Droid, the app store that specializes in open source apps.

--- Quote ---As for Google services, they are valuable to many. Ad revenue is an important driver for content creators. YouTube is the best example. MicroG does not give you that.

--- End quote ---
There are better Youtube viewer apps like Youtube Vanced and Newpipe. Those who do want the ads to support creators but don't want the ads disrupting their enjoyment of the content (or getting creeped out by ads that track too closely) can leave the video playing with ads on a cheap or old device while watching without ads on their "good" device.

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