Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.

[eti]

You lose the "Play Store" and with it you lose all other apps, too. Apps are the single, most important feature that "make" a smartphone. Selling Android phones without Google stuff has been tried and everyone failed, and each time the reason was "no apps available".

If you want to keep using all the popular apps, you need to download them from sketchy servers, trading privacy for security (and you cannot have privacy without security).

Look up "APK downloader" on Github and you'll find quite a few of those. Then there's F-Droid, the app store that specializes in open source apps.

As for Google services, they are valuable to many. Ad revenue is an important driver for content creators. YouTube is the best example. MicroG does not give you that.

There are better Youtube viewer apps like Youtube Vanced and Newpipe. Those who do want the ads to support creators but don't want the ads disrupting their enjoyment of the content (or getting creeped out by ads that track too closely) can leave the video playing with ads on a cheap or old device while watching without ads on their "good" device.

I have used “Smart Tube Next” and its predecessor, for over two years - the hours or cumulative days of my life it has saved me, with respect to cutting out insufferably arrogant, pushy advertisers, are countless.

Back to topic - Android is still utter garbage - how so? Well the fact that they give it away to the likes of Amazon to create their appallingly sluggish “Fire OS”, speaks volumes. It’s free, but so what, when it’s so pathetic.

The myriad promises and “projects” Google have crowed about over the years, apparently to show “THIS time it’s gonna be SOOOO much better, because <X, Y and Z>“ only to have them never take off as was crowed, and then quietly vanish into the distance, is laughable.

Watching my only two year old Xiaomi Redmi Note 7, attempt to open an app, is like watching a 35 stone, 85 year old man with arthritis, heaving himself out of his armchair and attempting to jog down the street. It’s embarrassing, and shows that empty promised and bare hardware specs mean zero.

[Halcyon]

Back to topic - Android is still utter garbage - how so? Well the fact that they give it away to the likes of Amazon to create their appallingly sluggish “Fire OS”, speaks volumes. It’s free, but so what, when it’s so pathetic.

That's like saying Linux is utter garbage because someone made a crap distro. Android itself is leaps and bounds ahead of Apple iOS in terms of customisability and features. It generally always has been. When a manufacturer butchers a product, whether it be Android, Linux, embedded versions of Windows etc... etc... doesn't mean that everything is garbage. Plain Android (or as close to plain as you can get) is awesome. The crap that comes out of China like ColorOS is shit and I wouldn't trust it with security, privacy or stability as far as I could throw the device.

You also can't blame the OS or the developer for crap hardware. This is one thing that Apple have (usually) managed to get right. The hardware (with some exceptions) is generally pretty decent quality and if you want MacOS or iOS, you have to buy it with an Apple device. You don't get a choice. This is why Apple is an excellent (albeit expensive) choice for users who don't care about how their computer works, they just want it to browse the internet, watch Youtube or Netflix and check their email.

[tooki]

This is why Apple is an excellent (albeit expensive) choice for users who don't care about how their computer works, they just want it to browse the internet, watch Youtube or Netflix and check their email.

…or make Hollywood movies and TV shows, design the websites you browse and the printed matter you read, write the apps people use, design the house you live in, run multi-billion dollar businesses, perform scientific research, use Microsoft Office, or any multitude of things beyond basic media consumption.

The overwhelming majority of people do not care about how their computers work. As engineering nerds, we are an exception, not the rule. (And IMHO, it’s our job to engineer consumer products such that ordinary consumers don’t need to understand how they work.)

What Macs are is systems for people who want their systems to get out of the way and just work. Are they perfect? No. But they’re better in that regard than the competition. (Though I will happily admit that Windows is a ton better now than it used to be. Since I have to use both platforms, I want both to work well!) They’re definitely not the system for someone who wants to tweak everything under the hood.


As for hardware, I’m very torn: I’m still using a 2008 Mac Pro, because its internal expansion is hugely useful. I am in desperate need of a new machine, but no desktop Apple has made in the past 8 years or so truly meets my needs. :/ I’ve even considered building a hackintosh… :/

[Sal Ammoniac]

Android itself is leaps and bounds ahead of Apple iOS in terms of customisability and features. It generally always has been.

So what? Do you think normal people (and you're not "normal" in the sense that you are far more technical than the vast majority of people) care about things like this? Well, they don't--they just want something that works. Too much customizability is actually a bad thing for mass market products as it leads to confusion and additional support issues. And what features are you referring to? Sure, on an Android phone you can install command shell apps and things like that, but those things are as alien to the average consumer as quantum mechanics.

You also can't blame the OS or the developer for crap hardware.

Correct, but the average consumer doesn't know the difference--to them it's all one integrated unit.

[Halcyon]

This is why Apple is an excellent (albeit expensive) choice for users who don't care about how their computer works, they just want it to browse the internet, watch Youtube or Netflix and check their email.

…or make Hollywood movies and TV shows, design the websites you browse and the printed matter you read, write the apps people use, design the house you live in, run multi-billion dollar businesses, perform scientific research, use Microsoft Office, or any multitude of things beyond basic media consumption.

The overwhelming majority of people do not care about how their computers work. As engineering nerds, we are an exception, not the rule. (And IMHO, it’s our job to engineer consumer products such that ordinary consumers don’t need to understand how they work.)

What Macs are is systems for people who want their systems to get out of the way and just work. Are they perfect? No. But they’re better in that regard than the competition. (Though I will happily admit that Windows is a ton better now than it used to be. Since I have to use both platforms, I want both to work well!) They’re definitely not the system for someone who wants to tweak everything under the hood.

You basically described computers generally. These things are not exclusive to Apple. Nor did I suggest that basic media consumption was all that Apple was good for. I was just highlighting one target audience.

As for Windows being better than it was, I think this just highlights that we have very different opinions and experiences when it comes to computing. Windows 8/10 is what forced me to learn Linux years ago as to switch over to Apple MacOS/hardware just isn't suitable for me, it's not flexible enough and for the most part, over-priced for what it is. I've been using Windows 10 for years and I have to say, in my opinion, it is the biggest steaming pile of shit Microsoft has ever released. It's terrible, even more so than Windows Millennium and Vista ever were. Outside of a test VM, I will never ever install Windows 10 on a computer in my home and this is saying a lot coming from someone who grew up with and administered Windows networks all his life.

[eti]

Summation: The huge problem with many hardcore nerds is that they cannot see nor imagine anything outside their use case and daily needs. (a trait of austism - MANY engineers and programmers are austistic... helllloooooooooooooooooooooooo?) - not a problem, an observation, it's as clear as that.

You tap a file on Android, and an "intent" picker pops up, offering you 20 different ways to open the file, with 20 different apps - WHY ARE YOU ASKING THE USER, PROGRAMMER? *YOU* designed the software, have the courage and confidence to JUST OPEN the file, showing them "This is what happens when you tap this file type" - END OF STORY.

450 bajillion different handsets, random version of the OS, unknown whether the OS will be able to handle the file type you want... what AN ABSOLUTE MESS!

Like MacDonalds sell more cheeseburgers than The Ritz sell premium steaks, Android vendors sell more than iPhones, SO WHAT? that is no indication of quality.

[Halcyon]

The huge problem with many hardcore nerds is that they cannot see nor imagine anything outside their use case and daily needs.

I think you are absolutely correct and I tend to face this on a weekly basis with some people in my team. It's difficult to encourage some people to think outside the box or challenge what they already know (or think they know). It does lead to some interesting conversations sometimes though.

[tooki]

This is why Apple is an excellent (albeit expensive) choice for users who don't care about how their computer works, they just want it to browse the internet, watch Youtube or Netflix and check their email.

…or make Hollywood movies and TV shows, design the websites you browse and the printed matter you read, write the apps people use, design the house you live in, run multi-billion dollar businesses, perform scientific research, use Microsoft Office, or any multitude of things beyond basic media consumption.

The overwhelming majority of people do not care about how their computers work. As engineering nerds, we are an exception, not the rule. (And IMHO, it’s our job to engineer consumer products such that ordinary consumers don’t need to understand how they work.)

What Macs are is systems for people who want their systems to get out of the way and just work. Are they perfect? No. But they’re better in that regard than the competition. (Though I will happily admit that Windows is a ton better now than it used to be. Since I have to use both platforms, I want both to work well!) They’re definitely not the system for someone who wants to tweak everything under the hood.

You basically described computers generally. These things are not exclusive to Apple. Nor did I suggest that basic media consumption was all that Apple was good for. I was just highlighting one target audience.

No, that is precisely what you were doing, since you said that people who “don’t care about how their computer works”… “just want to… browse the internet, watch YouTube and Netflix, and check email.” In fact, most people don’t care how their computer works, and that includes most professional users, too.

As for Windows being better than it was, I think this just highlights that we have very different opinions and experiences when it comes to computing. Windows 8/10 is what forced me to learn Linux years ago as to switch over to Apple MacOS/hardware just isn't suitable for me, it's not flexible enough and for the most part, over-priced for what it is. I've been using Windows 10 for years and I have to say, in my opinion, it is the biggest steaming pile of shit Microsoft has ever released. It's terrible, even more so than Windows Millennium and Vista ever were. Outside of a test VM, I will never ever install Windows 10 on a computer in my home and this is saying a lot coming from someone who grew up with and administered Windows networks all his life.

Well, Windows 10 fixes a lot of the usability problems in prior versions of Windows (little things, each in isolation no biggie, but cumulatively becoming death by a thousand paper cuts), and it’s proven to be dramatically more stable for me than Windows 7 or earlier ever were. Also, far fewer issues with things like waking from sleep, which on my the Win 7 computer at my old job would often take upwards of five minutes (!!!) to actually become responsive after waking…

It seems to me that the people who complain the most about new Microsoft software releases (Windows, Office, etc) are very long-time users who don’t like for anything whatsoever to change in the interface, never mind major changes. For people who haven’t been using it for as long, the newer releases do seem to be better, as borne out by MS’s usability testing.

[PlainName]

an "intent" picker pops up, offering you 20 different ways to open the file, with 20 different apps - WHY ARE YOU ASKING THE USER, PROGRAMMER?

It's the OS offering the stuff, is it not? Regardless, how is the programmer meant to know which of the bazillion random apps on the Play store the user wants to handle the file? Maybe you could spell out your solution to this problem?

Perhaps the user could be consulted since he installed the apps. With a bit of thinking, instead of ranting, you could even come up with a tickbox: "Use this app every time", and then the user wouldn't be troubled again.

[Halcyon]

It seems to me that the people who complain the most about new Microsoft software releases (Windows, Office, etc) are very long-time users who don’t like for anything whatsoever to change in the interface, never mind major changes. For people who haven’t been using it for as long, the newer releases do seem to be better, as borne out by MS’s usability testing.

That doesn't apply in my situation. Yes, Windows 10 fixed a bunch of stuff, but in doing so introduced a horrible GUI and even more problems, mostly mere annoyances but annoyances nonetheless. Why would I want to switch from a stable, working OS like Windows 7 to something that does a worse job like Windows 10? It makes no sense to me. It's not about resisting change, but if they are going to change the way they do things, at least make a change for the better. I'm actually slightly ashamed to admit it but even Apple MacOS annoys me less than Windows 10 does.

Of course new users will generally have a better experience, as they don't have that benchmark of what Windows used to be. I've used every version of Windows since 3.0 and I remember how great some of those versions were. Even today, I still find Windows 7 more usable for my workflow than Windows 10. It just works and it's not in my face constantly.

[fourfathom]

Since we're sharing personal opinions, I happen to like Win10, and I've used every MS OS since MSDOS 1.?  Back in the day I used many engineering programs on Unix workstations, and wrote  MSDOS TSR programs that took over the ISRs and directly touched the hardware.  Now, I couldn't do the TSR stuff on Win10, but for my daily use -- Verilog HDL, schematic, PCB, design and analysis tools, some programming, interfacing to instruments, and watching cat videos -- Win10 is my choice and I'm pretty happy with it.

[PlainName]

the newer releases do seem to be better, as borne out by MS’s usability testing

You have to be kidding. There is no way that scrollbar-less borderless windows are easier to use than previously. The lack of discoverability should have stuck 'usability' at a negative number, and you can further subtract ordinary-looking text that is actually a button or link (or links disguised as ordinary text). Far too much white space in the wrong places, and those are just some issues - there are plenty more.

For people who haven’t been using it for as long

Well, yes. If they've known nothing then anything will be good. Walked everywhere all your life? An e-scooter will be luxury to you, but for anyone wanting to do real travel or transportation there are far better solutions.

[james_s]

the newer releases do seem to be better, as borne out by MS’s usability testing

You have to be kidding. There is no way that scrollbar-less borderless windows are easier to use than previously. The lack of discoverability should have stuck 'usability' at a negative number, and you can further subtract ordinary-looking text that is actually a button or link (or links disguised as ordinary text). Far too much white space in the wrong places, and those are just some issues - there are plenty more.

For people who haven’t been using it for as long

Well, yes. If they've known nothing then anything will be good. Walked everywhere all your life? An e-scooter will be luxury to you, but for anyone wanting to do real travel or transportation there are far better solutions.

Scrollbar-less windows are awful, that is very clearly a case of form over function. I absolutely hate the sea of whitespace look that has been so common too. There is an arms race between monitor resolutions increasing, and then UI designers just making everything bigger and more spread out to gobble up that space and it drives me nuts. I have a high resolution monitor because I want to be able to see lots of stuff at once.

I think the issue is that software has become a mature commodity overall, there is not much else left to really innovate, so they change stuff for the sake of change and it follows fads just like clothing and fashion. Somebody comes up with some "bold" new look and everyone else jumps on the bandwagon and copies it, with little thought as to whether it actually makes sense.

Case in point Apple just released a new line of Macbooks that have a freaking notch cut out of the top of the screen, just like their larger phone  Except as bad as it is on the phones, at least they can almost claim it is for a reason because it holds the sensor array for Face ID, which the laptops don't even have.    There is literally no purpose for the notch, other than to maybe make the already razor thin top bezel a few mm thinner, and it blows my mind that anyone would find a chunk cut out of the screen to be less objectionable than a slightly thicker bezel. I seriously thought it was a photoshopped joke when my friend sent me a picture of them. He was excited to buy a new top of the line laptop to replace his 5 year old Macbook and they fixed most of the things he didn't like about the older one but then screwed it all up with the stupid notch, which is something neither of us can stand.

[tooki]

the newer releases do seem to be better, as borne out by MS’s usability testing

You have to be kidding. There is no way that scrollbar-less borderless windows are easier to use than previously. The lack of discoverability should have stuck 'usability' at a negative number, and you can further subtract ordinary-looking text that is actually a button or link (or links disguised as ordinary text). Far too much white space in the wrong places, and those are just some issues - there are plenty more.

I didn’t say that every aspect is better!

I completely, 100% agree with you on the lack of visual affordances that has taken over the entire computer industry. To me, as a former UX designer, it’s absolute, utter lunacy. And yeah, the oceans of white space… ugh.

But there are nonetheless a slew of things they improved over Win 7 that make working with it a lot smoother. (One that’s right at the top for me: scrolling the object under the mouse, not the object that has focus.)

For people who haven’t been using it for as long

Well, yes. If they've known nothing then anything will be good. Walked everywhere all your life? An e-scooter will be luxury to you, but for anyone wanting to do real travel or transportation there are far better solutions.

No, Windows is the Toyota of the OS world. Some new users will be first-time drivers, but many will be experienced drivers of 18-wheelers (Linux) or BMWs (Mac).

Scrollbar-less windows are awful, that is very clearly a case of form over function. I absolutely hate the sea of whitespace look that has been so common too. There is an arms race between monitor resolutions increasing, and then UI designers just making everything bigger and more spread out to gobble up that space and it drives me nuts. I have a high resolution monitor because I want to be able to see lots of stuff at once.

I think the issue is that software has become a mature commodity overall, there is not much else left to really innovate, so they change stuff for the sake of change and it follows fads just like clothing and fashion. Somebody comes up with some "bold" new look and everyone else jumps on the bandwagon and copies it, with little thought as to whether it actually makes sense.

I agree with every single word you wrote there.

It makes me furious that I can’t see nearly as much information on a modern computer, with a much bigger display, as on a midsize display on a computer 20 years ago.

I welcome high-DPI displays to give us increased sharpness and detail, but so many modern sites and software are just jokes, using 72-point headings and the like.

I also hate when websites fix their content width, such that making the window wider doesn’t actually let you see any more, and resizing it narrower just makes it clip so you have to scroll left and right.

I also detest how websites have become such fucking resource pigs. It’s insane that websites now take just as long to load as they did on dialup back in 1998. Sure, they now have more pictures, but it takes at least as long, if not longer, to actually be able to read the text of a page.

Also, am I the only person to have noticed that most websites now break “back” behavior? Specifically, pages seem to almost always reload and jump back to the top of the page, whereas in the past they’d go back to whatever position you were scrolled down to. I know endless-scrolling pages (hiss, froth!) make that much more difficult to do (though Twitter gets it right), but it affects so many sites now, even ones that appear to be normal static pages. (Is it due to cache staleness? Do modern sites set the expiry time to be ultra short? Does it have to do with HTTPS? I’m not a web dev, so I’m not fully versed on the intricacies of that.)

Case in point Apple just released a new line of Macbooks that have a freaking notch cut out of the top of the screen, just like their larger phone  Except as bad as it is on the phones, at least they can almost claim it is for a reason because it holds the sensor array for Face ID, which the laptops don't even have.    There is literally no purpose for the notch, other than to maybe make the already razor thin top bezel a few mm thinner, and it blows my mind that anyone would find a chunk cut out of the screen to be less objectionable than a slightly thicker bezel. I seriously thought it was a photoshopped joke when my friend sent me a picture of them. He was excited to buy a new top of the line laptop to replace his 5 year old Macbook and they fixed most of the things he didn't like about the older one but then screwed it all up with the stupid notch, which is something neither of us can stand.

I haven’t seen them in person yet, but while I doubt it’d bother me the way it does you guys, it certainly seems like an unnecessary tradeoff for such a small decrease in bezel. What did stand out to me is the grotesque asymmetry in the corner radiuses of the top lid and bottom cases, as seen from the side when closed. It’s like they cobbled together the lid and bottom from two different designs…

[Bassman59]

the newer releases do seem to be better, as borne out by MS’s usability testing

You have to be kidding. There is no way that scrollbar-less borderless windows are easier to use than previously. The lack of discoverability should have stuck 'usability' at a negative number, and you can further subtract ordinary-looking text that is actually a button or link (or links disguised as ordinary text). Far too much white space in the wrong places, and those are just some issues - there are plenty more.

There is a way to re-enable full-size scrollbars. I spent way too long looking for that little configuration option.

I hate hate hate how the big red X "close window" button in the upper right corner of a window extends to the border of the window. What happens when you want to resize the window from the upper right? Yep -- you end up closing your window most of the time. On macOS the three buttons for close, zoom and minimize are just dots in the upper left corner of the window and they don't extend to the edge of the window. It's been like that since forever on the Mac, and it makes sense.

At least Alt-F4 still works to close a window!

What's weird is that the legacy Control Panel and other configuration stuff still exists along with a newer interface to do most of the same stuff, and it's completely confusing because sometimes you can't do what you want because the actual config thing is in some other menu somewhere. Where the hell is network configuration? All over the damn place.

Also audio configuration and volume control are buried weirdly. On the Mac you can have your volume control right there on the menu bar,  along with every obvious ways to control audio sources.

[james_s]

I haven’t seen them in person yet, but while I doubt it’d bother me the way it does you guys, it certainly seems like an unnecessary tradeoff for such a small decrease in bezel. What did stand out to me is the grotesque asymmetry in the corner radiuses of the top lid and bottom cases, as seen from the side when closed. It’s like they cobbled together the lid and bottom from two different designs…

I haven't seen the new Macbooks in person yet but I've seen lots of notched iPhones and I hate them every bit as much now as I did the first time I saw them. I also absolutely cannot stand the rabid fanbois who love to blow off my complaints as whining over nothing. I'm OCD, I know this, I'm not offended by people calling it what it is, a mental disorder, but whatever, things like the notch cut out of the display, or a logo floating in the corner of the TV, or a blob of dead pixels or a spitwad on the screen, it drives me absolutely NUTS, I can't ignore it, it's like talking to someone that has something obviously stuck in their teeth. It's doubly annoying that I know most of those people who blow off my complaints as ridiculous whining over nothing would absolutely blow a gasket if I suggested a person with depression "just get over it" or some other such thing.

Now I think you already know this but I am not anti-Apple by any means. I've had an employer issued Macbook Pro since 2018 and there are a lot of things I really love about it, the OS is fantastic compared to recent versions of Windows, the fit & finish is great, but the keyboard is crap, I've never liked the lack of ports, and while I really tried to like the touchbar I just never found a good use for it and it doesn't work as well as physical keys for most of what I do use it for, it's too easy to bump it accidentally. They fixed almost all of these things in the new one, but then they screwed it all up with that infuriating notch, and I'm fairly sure they did it just as a fashion statement, people see the notch and they know you're using the latest Macbook, until cheap PC clone laptops start copying it in a few weeks. It's like they actually listened to almost every complaint I had about the Macbook I have and fixed them all, then slapped me in the face giving it a stupid notch.

[james_s]

That's like saying Linux is utter garbage because someone made a crap distro. Android itself is leaps and bounds ahead of Apple iOS in terms of customisability and features. It generally always has been. When a manufacturer butchers a product, whether it be Android, Linux, embedded versions of Windows etc... etc... doesn't mean that everything is garbage. Plain Android (or as close to plain as you can get) is awesome. The crap that comes out of China like ColorOS is shit and I wouldn't trust it with security, privacy or stability as far as I could throw the device.

I have several Android devices, I tried to like it, I really did, for those reasons you mention, it is absolutely more customizable than iOS. I just can't though, every device I've ever had that runs Android is glitchy and buggy, it's hard to even put a finger on what it is I don't like about it but it just doesn't work the way I do and I don't like it. I love Linux and I love open source software, I really, really wish that iOS was more open, but I tolerate the way that it is because my phone is a tool, I don't tinker with it, I don't hack it, I rely heavily on it and don't want to risk breaking it. I would never tolerate this kind of locked down inflexibility in a general purpose computer but a phone, I just want it to work. There is no great mobile OS, I just find iOS less intolerable than Android.

[Zero999]

I can't think of anything which is fixed in Windows 10. The user interface is now even more inconsistent, with Metro apps being huge, compared to traditional programs. Some of the keyboard shortcuts no longer work. On Windows 7 and before, I could quickly shutdown a PC, by pressing the Windows key, u and enter. On Windows 10, it just searches for programs on the start menu beginning with u. 

The new MS Office Ribbon UI is crap. It often takes more mouse clicks to do the same thing, as older versions. Even using keyboard shortcuts doesn't help much. In previous versions I could get straight to the open file dialog box by pressing ctr+o. Now it takes me to a list of recently opened files, which occupies the entire screen. To get to the open file dialog box, I have to select browse. The whole thing is rubbish.

It isn't a case of me resisting change. I've used most Windows versions since 3, as well as non-MS operating systems such as Acorn OS and various Linux desktops and still say Windows 10 is pretty bad. I just don't know what Microsoft were thinking.

[PlainName]

I didn’t say that every aspect is better!

True! Sorry

(One that’s right at the top for me: scrolling the object under the mouse, not the object that has focus.)

I'm on W7 and that's how my scrolling with the mouse works for me. In fact I just tried it to be sure because it's so 'normal' I thought I might be misremembering. I think there was a setting I had to change,  but it's so long ago I can't recall if it was in the OS or mouse driver. A quick check of the driver (Logitech) doesn't show anything, though. I note that my window manager has the option to 'scroll inactive windows with the mouse', but that's not enabled! Damn, this is annoying now.

Case in point Apple just released a new line of Macbooks that have a freaking notch cut out of the top of the screen

!!! <--- speechless

[thinkfat]

You lose the "Play Store" and with it you lose all other apps, too. Apps are the single, most important feature that "make" a smartphone. Selling Android phones without Google stuff has been tried and everyone failed, and each time the reason was "no apps available".

If you want to keep using all the popular apps, you need to download them from sketchy servers, trading privacy for security (and you cannot have privacy without security).

Look up "APK downloader" on Github and you'll find quite a few of those. Then there's F-Droid, the app store that specializes in open source apps.

What difference does it make whether I download the APKs manually or use an equally sketchy tool to do it? 

As for Google services, they are valuable to many. Ad revenue is an important driver for content creators. YouTube is the best example. MicroG does not give you that.

There are better Youtube viewer apps like Youtube Vanced and Newpipe. Those who do want the ads to support creators but don't want the ads disrupting their enjoyment of the content (or getting creeped out by ads that track too closely) can leave the video playing with ads on a cheap or old device while watching without ads on their "good" device.

Sigh. The whole scheme gets more impratical with each of your responses. Now I need a "good" phone that is de-googled and does nothing and a throw-away phone that is allowed to deliver ads. How is that supposed to make a No-Google Android device attractive to a "normal" person.

I'm not saying that a device purely based on AOSP isn't a nice thing - for a nerd. It's just not a nice thing _to_have_ if your needs don't primarily revolve around privacy or you just like to tinker.

[NiHaoMike]

What difference does it make whether I download the APKs manually or use an equally sketchy tool to do it? 

Open source lets you inspect what it's doing.

Sigh. The whole scheme gets more impratical with each of your responses. Now I need a "good" phone that is de-googled and does nothing and a throw-away phone that is allowed to deliver ads. How is that supposed to make a No-Google Android device attractive to a "normal" person.

I'm not saying that a device purely based on AOSP isn't a nice thing - for a nerd. It's just not a nice thing _to_have_ if your needs don't primarily revolve around privacy or you just like to tinker.

That cheap device could cost as little as $5. Can you name a cheaper way to watch Youtube without ads and still support the creators? (There might be a Youtube viewer app out there that hides the ads instead of blocking them, haven't looked for one.)

[thinkfat]

I could also jump through hoops. My point still stands: A de-Googled Android phone is not a practical device, no more than any of the existing Open Source options out there. None of them managed to take off. Everything you brought to the table just adds another layer of hurt.

[PlainName]

Open source lets you inspect what it's doing

It potentially lets some of us inspect it if we could be arsed and had the time, but no-one is going to. For the vast majority of people it's just not even been through the cursory inspection that Google gives them.

[tooki]

Open source lets you inspect what it's doing

It potentially lets some of us inspect it if we could be arsed and had the time, but no-one is going to. For the vast majority of people it's just not even been through the cursory inspection that Google gives them.

Yep. The whole “you can inspect and modify the code yourself” thing forgets that most people aren’t programmers, and that even those that are don’t normally have the time to acquaint themselves with an existing code base.

[james_s]

Yep. The whole “you can inspect and modify the code yourself” thing forgets that most people aren’t programmers, and that even those that are don’t normally have the time to acquaint themselves with an existing code base.

That's absolutely true, however just like the potted electronic devices, it only takes one person curious enough to inspect the code and raise the alarm if there is something nefarious there. Then that draws attention to it and scores of other technological minded people can go take a look and verify these claims. It is not necessary for every individual to inspect the code they're using, the code is out there and can be inspected, if there is something there, somebody will probably find it sooner or later. I have actually modified a few trivial command line utilities in Linux and I was glad to have the ability to do so.