Ahmed's family case against the city and ISD dismissed (a.k.a Clock Boy)

[rsjsouza]

I usually don't post such topics here, but since this was the topic of a very long discussion two years ago (with an epic ending by Dave ), here it is:

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/irving/2018/03/14/clockboy-ahmed-mohamed-lawsuit-irving-isd-city-dismissed

[Bud]

Good. Hopefully they will order the greedy family to pay the legal fees.

[A Hellene]

For a brief moment, I thought that the thread title was referring to that Achmed!


-George

[Red Squirrel]

Seems like a good timing given we just moved our clocks forward. 

[Stray Electron]

Good. Hopefully they will order the greedy family to pay the legal fees.

  He did!  "The judge also ordered the family to cover all of the costs of the lawsuit."

  <https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Judge-Slams-Door-on-Further-Litigation-By-Clock-Boy-Family-476887763.html>

[CNe7532294]

Good GOOD.      I'm too late to this discussion here but I have a lot to say about this sham. Here's the condensed version.

This should have stopped at we're sorry you got arrested but please understand what you did can scare people. I could make the same argument as the clock boy family by claiming I want to be a machinist then bring a prototype gun that doesn't function to school and show off my skills (and later get funded/sponsored by the NRA  ). No sane person would put blame on a kid but on the father instead. Father knew what was happening and played a lot of loony sympathizers like a fiddle. The father is a charlatan and for that I despise him and people like him. Claims to want to establish a household in America but goes off overseas at the first possible chance instead. Never in my life have I've seen such publicly sanctioned racism under the guise of combating the racist policy of racial profiling (which there was no intent of by the way). I lost respect for the circus parading this kid around as if he actually stood up for something or made a contribution like "finding the cure to cancer".

Now back to the topic at hand. Good call by the judge. Decency won today. I don't feel bad that the family will have to pay legal fees because by the end of the day they won't. As mentioned above, there'll either be nutter donors or overseas sympathizers to pick up the tab. Here's one: The Qatar Foundation. Source: http://time.com/4080463/clock-kid-ahmed-moving-to-qatar/

[Brumby]

I could make the same argument as the clock boy family by claiming I want to be a machinist then bring a prototype gun that doesn't function to school and show off my skills

I would choose a better example.  To make something in the shape of a gun is a deliberate design decision.  It could only ever be a gun.  This kid's clock was perceived to be something it wasn't - and that was ONE interpretation of the appearance.

Further, that was done by someone (actually, a number of people) without any fundamental understanding of electronics who was (quite likely) influenced by Hollywood.  Hollywood only ever shows stuff like that when it's a bomb ... never when it's some kid's hobby project.

IMO, the arrest was over the top when the device had not been properly identified.

[Stray Electron]

IMO, the arrest was over the top when the device had not been properly identified.

   I guess that you didn't bother to read any of the articles.  The boy wasn't arrested for making or possessing a bomb, he was explicitly arrested for possession of a FAKE bomb.  Display of even a fake bomb is illegal in most, if not all, states in the US.   The cops called this one exactly right.

   Here is a copy of the Texas law for those of you can that CAN read:

(a)?A person commits an offense if the person knowingly manufactures, sells, purchases, transports, or possesses a hoax bomb with intent to use the hoax bomb to:

(1)?make another believe that the hoax bomb is an explosive or incendiary device; ?or

(2)?cause alarm or reaction of any type by an official of a public safety agency or volunteer agency organized to deal with emergencies.

(b)?An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.


<codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-46-08.html>

[helius]

(2)?cause alarm or reaction of any type by an official of a public safety agency or volunteer agency organized to deal with emergencies.

Which is a terrible legal standard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Boston_Mooninite_panic
https://medium.com/@starsandrobots/understandably-cause-for-alarm-1f0929be0615

[Brumby]

   I guess that you didn't bother to read any of the articles.  The boy wasn't arrested for making or possessing a bomb, he was explicitly arrested for possession of a FAKE bomb.  Display of even a fake bomb is illegal in most, if not all, states in the US.

I don't debate that as being fair and reasonable - but what defined it as a fake bomb rather than a real clock?  I'll just blame Hollywood.

Anyway, I'm not going to debate this since there is an understandable concern for public safety.

[CNe7532294]

I could make the same argument as the clock boy family by claiming I want to be a machinist then bring a prototype gun that doesn't function to school and show off my skills

I would choose a better example.  To make something in the shape of a gun is a deliberate design decision.  It could only ever be a gun.  This kid's clock was perceived to be something it wasn't - and that was ONE interpretation of the appearance.

Further, that was done by someone (actually, a number of people) without any fundamental understanding of electronics who was (quite likely) influenced by Hollywood.  Hollywood only ever shows stuff like that when it's a bomb ... never when it's some kid's hobby project.

IMO, the arrest was over the top when the device had not been properly identified.

Point taken and agreed on the "deliberate design of a gun". I can also agree with the Hollywood comment. That being said I still stand by my example in the overall view of things (the picture of the clock itself is worth a 1000 words). This is why I have to call the arrest, justified, regardless of who you are. Its normal police procedure to arrest anyone (including an innocent person) at the scene of a crime anyways (which this is, making fake bombs is against the law) then sort out who is who. I've seen a classmate who came in with a bullet casing to tell a story behind it. Got called to the assistant dean and cops got involved as well as a psychiatrist. He was labeled as a threat and I too thought that was over the top but by the end of it all, nothing happened. Everything went on as normal. No escalation. No media circus. No mass idiotic reactions. Kid understands not to do it again because they calmly explained to him what he had done wrong and why they did what they did while the kid is a reasonable kid. Everyone is "cool". Life went on without damaging anyone's image.

Here's another scenario. What if an over enthusiastic kid making semiconductors decided to bring a piece of his lab to school for show and tell? What if there were bottles labeled with "acid", "skull and crossbones", "explosive", "hazard", etc. Especially if they took this stuff out into a class that is not related to science (clock boy took out his clock in english class...). Would you not consider that a bomb threat if you didn't know what those symbols actually mean? Not everyone is into science. An english teacher is only there to teach english and fellow classmates certainly will make things worse.

On that subject of semiconductor making. This kid in this video link deserves more recognition than he'll ever get but will probably only get 25% of what clock boy actually got because hes not "edgy" on any taboo subjects. At least he will never get into trouble because he has such great parents to guide him properly.

Lastly, this is not aimed at you or anyone specifically. There is a very flawed mentality that has taken hold of a lot of people as of late. I despise this thinking that we should victimize someone and "right this terrible wrong" among other things. I believe I've fully described what kind of mentality I'm talking about in my 2 posts.

[EEVblog]

What a bunch of idiots to even raise a legal case.
They got media coverage most people can only dream of, and Ahmed had no end of amazing offers as a result.
But nope, let's sue and move to Qatar   

[Brumby]

This is why I have to call the arrest, justified, regardless of who you are. Its normal police procedure to arrest anyone (including an innocent person) at the scene of a crime anyways (which this is, making fake bombs is against the law) then sort out who is who.

Fair point.  I can understand police stepping in to control a situation of unknown risk and that sorting things out can happen at a later date when the situational variables have been removed.  So, OK on the arrest, then.

The circus that followed, though ... 

[Cyberdragon]

The key word in that law is INTENT! Was it intended as a fake bomb to scare people? Should we arrest anyone with a paper mache ball and fuse for a cartoon themed school play? Stopping someone to asses a threat is one thing, but it shouldn't take a genious to realize there was no explosive in that breifcase.

Second, did you just say it was totally ok for a kid to be arrested, phyciatrically analyzed and told what he did was "wrong" because he had an EMPTY CASING?! Now, if he was telling some disturbing story...then maybe...but if it was a case of he dug up a civil war or wild west casing in his backyard and brought it to his history class... Security theater garbage...

[CNe7532294]

The key word in that law is INTENT! Was it intended as a fake bomb to scare people? Should we arrest anyone with a paper mache ball and fuse for a cartoon themed school play? Stopping someone to asses a threat is one thing, but it shouldn't take a genious to realize there was no explosive in that breifcase.

Second, did you just say it was totally ok for a kid to be arrested, phyciatrically analyzed and told what he did was "wrong" because he had an EMPTY CASING?! Now, if he was telling some disturbing story...then maybe...but if it was a case of he dug up a civil war or wild west casing in his backyard and brought it to his history class... Security theater garbage...

You misunderstood the context of what I'm trying to say. I only included the bullet casing story to show that people have been arrested in a worse manner but nothing bad came out of it. As for the rest I think I clearly explained it above. In short, yes I would at the very least question someone doing something that does not fit into a particular environment. Paper mache bomb thrown in the dean's office for example.

As for intent, I 100% agree. Currently, I can't prove that, beyond a reason of a doubt, this clock project was designed to incite some sort of response. Some even say the father was behind it or fully supported it as a means to gain power but that really can't be proved. Truthfully, I dropped this story once the circus ended and my coworkers stopped talking about it. Still, intent works both ways. Where is the proof that racists exist in that school or Irving? They had no case and that is the sham of this circus. This is the sham that continues even today. People often confuse being arrested with being jailed. More importantly, people often confuse an accusation, an indictment, and a conviction. These are all very very different from each other. This is ultimately what I absolutely ABSOLUTELY DESPISE about the world today. In a mere instant your reputation can be in ruins. The true victim here is the City of Irving and maybe the state of Texas itself. The perpetrator being not really the kid but the mass circus that follows. A lot of people ridden on like the ship of fools they are or were. For some reason Texas was considered a racist state when a mere visit to it's cities (Houston, San Antonio, El Paso, to name a few and yes even Dallas) will prove otherwise. Just don't do anything stupid, respect the culture and laws, and you're fine. Pretty much the advice you'd hear on a foreign trip. This place isn't 1930s Germany. Sorry. I have no shame and I'm proud of being able to have lived in this state. Flaws and all.

As for security theater, agreed on that. Life was so much better in the 90s. I could literally do whatever I wanted and no one would question it. However, 09/11/2001 happened. America changed that day and will forever be changed. Other places in the world might be easily forgiving and forgetful but ~3,000 died that day. Where my parent saw the moon landing at my age at the time, I had the pleasure of watching thousands of people die live on TV in school. I don't have a satisfactory answer to changing this environment back to what it once was. I wish we could go back and pretend it didn't happen. That is well beyond the scope of my abilities though. Logically imho change will most certainly come from denying radical Islamic terrorism (or whatever its called) its place in the world. Very much like we've denied the Ku Klux Klan.

This is why I have to call the arrest, justified, regardless of who you are. Its normal police procedure to arrest anyone (including an innocent person) at the scene of a crime anyways (which this is, making fake bombs is against the law) then sort out who is who.

Fair point.  I can understand police stepping in to control a situation of unknown risk and that sorting things out can happen at a later date when the situational variables have been removed.  So, OK on the arrest, then.

The circus that followed, though ... 

Totally agreed. That is when I knew modern day racism was alive and well. Its just not the type of any pre-1960s footage from history class we end up visualizing about. A reminder that a requirement of racism is prejudice which comes from pre justice or pre judgement. These meaning that making a judgement before all the facts are in.

[IanMacdonald]

Incidents of this kind underline that paranoia still lurks only just below the consciousness waterline in the mind of the modern human. We are, after all, evolutionally only a few hundred years advanced from the witch hunters of the middle ages, so perhaps that is not so surprising.

[Brumby]

I'm glad the EEVblog meetup in April last year didn't get raided.  With all the show and tell stuff there, it would have made world headlines...!

[Cyberdragon]

I'm glad the EEVblog meetup in April last year didn't get raided.  With all the show and tell stuff there, it would have made world headlines...!

OMG, lithium batteries! "Bombs" everywhere!

EDIT: That brings up a point...you arrest kids for fake bombs...yet they already all carry a small grenade of energy in their pockets...

[retrolefty]

The wheels of justice can turn very slowly at times but in this case at least it seems to have reached a just decision.   

[EEVblog]

The wheels of justice can turn very slowly at times but in this case at least it seems to have reached a just decision.   

How many man hours did this entire case waste I wonder?
Probably even more than the original hoopla.

[rsjsouza]

The wheels of justice can turn very slowly at times but in this case at least it seems to have reached a just decision.   

How many man hours did this entire case waste I wonder?
Probably even more than the original hoopla.

Yeah, unfortunately it is very hard to guess as there are three parties to account for (accuser's law firm, public defendants and the judge).

At any rate, it is a waste of useful resources of a system already backed up - no wonder it took about two years to get to this case.

[Mr. Scram]

Which is a terrible legal standard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Boston_Mooninite_panic
https://medium.com/@starsandrobots/understandably-cause-for-alarm-1f0929be0615

To be fair, the law seems to indicate that the thing has to be manufactured with the express purspose of causing alarm rather than simply causing alarm in the first place. However, the latter seems to have become the standard in recent years. Widespread paranoia and fear causes peope to have hair triggers, yet you are somehow held responsible if a minor action causes a huge response.

I'd say the people feeding the public reasons to be afraid on a daily basis should be held responsible, but that might drift into political discussions.

[NivagSwerdna]

I think the people who supported Clock Boy have a lot to answer for.  They leapt to support him without any consideration for the wider context.  His sister had previously been suspended in relation to a bomb hoax, something she was subsequently cleared of, but it gave some context, and the father was well known to the authorities. Clock Boy himself was probably an innocent victim but the sensation around the event was highly political.

[EEVblog]

I think the people who supported Clock Boy have a lot to answer for.  They leapt to support him without any consideration for the wider context.

Which is?

His sister had previously been suspended in relation to a bomb hoax, something she was subsequently cleared of, but it gave some context, and the father was well known to the authorities. Clock Boy himself was probably an innocent victim but the sensation around the event was highly political.

You said it yourself, "was probably an innocent victim", in which case what's wrong with supporting him?
As for my video, I'll stand by it even though many have asked me to remove it. Screw them. I'll support a 14yo nerdy (by all accounts) kid  bringing tech to school and having them over-react every time. I'll do what I can to encourage a young kid like that regardless of his family circumstances.
Whether or not he actually did it on purpose we'll never know unless he admits it.
And at the time of making the video, the news about his sister and father hadn't surfaced yet.
I did however know at the time that it was clearly an off the shelf clock taken apart, but I'm wasn't going to laugh at a 14yo kids skill level unlike many people.

I was very disappointed when he (admittedly undeservedly, but that's the game of life) had offers galore and maybe a shot at his MIT dream and then his father whisks him away to frigg'n Qatar to study religion, an intellectual black hole where apostasy is punishable by death. Poor Ahmed, he needed to go study the Art of Electronics, not the quran   

[NivagSwerdna]

You said it yourself, "was probably an innocent victim", in which case what's wrong with supporting him?

That support blew everything out of proportion to such an extent that the poor kid doesn't even live in the US any more.