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AliExpress adventures

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magic:
They aren't worthless, they are alternative implementations of ISL21009 with perhaps slightly worse performance and with a neat picture on them which traditionally appeared on ISL21009 and which doesn't mean anything because it surely isn't a registered trademark or anything of that sort :D

I'm kidding, but that's what they would tell you. There are no fakes on AliExpress, only quality issues :D

And in this case, it actually appears to be technically true. The part number is not standardized, the logo is not a trademark. Anyone can make chips like that. You think they have something to do with some other vendor's product under similar name? Oh well, silly you.
https://trademarks.justia.com/765/29/i-76529497.html

PlainName:

--- Quote ---It is actually not at all legitimate for seller to ask buyer to pay for the disputed goods to be shipped back.
--- End quote ---

Check any advert and the chances are that it will say "Buyer pays return shipping". But regardless of that, they can still screw you over by insisting you pay the return shipping and then they refund you. That's an upfront cost you'll have to fight for, and they will quibble about the huge sum you quote for that shipping. But it's a two-way game: buyers often come up with spurious problems expecting the vendor to let them keep they thing rather than pay to have it shipped back. So you can see that having the punter pay for the shipping, at least initially, weeds out a lot of scamming from the other side.

SilverSolder:

--- Quote from: magic on January 11, 2022, 11:33:06 pm ---They aren't worthless, they are alternative implementations of ISL21009 with perhaps slightly worse performance and with a neat picture on them which traditionally appeared on ISL21009 and which doesn't mean anything because it surely isn't a registered trademark or anything of that sort :D
[...]

--- End quote ---

LOL! :D     I guess with a sufficiently open mind*), they could claim something like "the product does actually work for many use cases (including being a door stop in a doll house etc.), so it does not depart 100% from the description"!

*) A mind so open that the contents are in danger of falling out! :)



--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on January 12, 2022, 12:43:07 am ---
--- Quote ---It is actually not at all legitimate for seller to ask buyer to pay for the disputed goods to be shipped back.
--- End quote ---

Check any advert and the chances are that it will say "Buyer pays return shipping". But regardless of that, they can still screw you over by insisting you pay the return shipping and then they refund you. That's an upfront cost you'll have to fight for, and they will quibble about the huge sum you quote for that shipping. But it's a two-way game: buyers often come up with spurious problems expecting the vendor to let them keep they thing rather than pay to have it shipped back. So you can see that having the punter pay for the shipping, at least initially, weeds out a lot of scamming from the other side.

--- End quote ---

What they are trying to catch there are the usual reasons for buyers sending stuff back....   they changed their mind,  bought by mistake,  dropped it on the floor, outright scam attempts, etc. etc.  In those cases, it is obviously right that buyer pays return shipping.  But this does not apply when buyer is well behaved, while seller is clearly and outrageously in breach of their obligations as defined by terms of the contract, which includes the item description! 

Since the contract is now broken, seller is still the legal owner of the goods and buyer is still the legal owner of the money that seller received in advance on the expectation that seller's part of the bargain would be fulfilled.  It beggars belief that seller should be entitled to get even more money from buyer at this point, given that they are already in possession of a pile of the buyer's cash that they are not entitled to??

The dispute team at AliExpress obviously know all this full well.   Their problem is to determine who is trying to scam who, based on the communications and the quality of the evidence presented.  That is all they have to go on, so putting in the time and getting that right is what it all boils down to!

PlainName:

--- Quote --- But this does not apply when buyer is well behaved
--- End quote ---

How do you know they are a well-behaved buyer? Scams work because other people are taken in, and the only reason you think well-behaved buyers are discernible is because you are one. From the seller's perspective it's completely the opposite, and they consider well-behaved sellers to be just as obvious to buyers.

One well-known scam on Ebay is to buy, say, a motherboard to replace the one you've broken (maybe screwed over the CPU pins when doing an upgrade). Then you send your old one back pretending it's the new one and complain that the vendor has sold you bad stuff. As the Ebay rep who only sees the buyers photos and has the vendors word that it was OK when sent out, honest, who are you going to believe? The vendor more often than not loses out in those cases.

Why should Aliexpress be different? Well, obviously, it is cheaper and the shipping is peanuts out so vendors can basically give the stuff away, but it costs a fortune to return. So vendors are better off writing off stuff instead of paying for returns. Given the toerags that populate this world, and that the majority of Aliexpress customers are there precisely to save a few bob, what are the chances that they are all going to be straight-up guys?

SilverSolder:

--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on January 12, 2022, 09:59:59 am ---
--- Quote --- But this does not apply when buyer is well behaved
--- End quote ---

How do you know they are a well-behaved buyer?


--- End quote ---

I think we are having a violent agreement!  :D

That is indeed the question - who is "well behaved"?

To avoid looking like a scammer, evidence is everything, to influence the balance of probabilities your way.  Being clear and well documented (pictures, videos) just works!  Having a long history of buying stuff with no problems is also important!

That's why I keep banging on about the need to go above and beyond in preparing your complaint:   be super clear,  super well documented, lots of pictures and videos, make sure some show using the stuff on your desk / in your lab area (making you look more genuine).

At the end of the day, it is going to be a judgement call.   If you didn't communicate well,  or if your account is new, or if your account doesn't have a good track record of "well behaved buyer", you increase the risk of falling into either the 'scammer' or 'unreasonable idiot' category by default, because - as you correctly point out - there are a lot of scummy buyers as well as sellers!



--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on January 12, 2022, 09:59:59 am ---Scams work because other people are taken in, and the only reason you think well-behaved buyers are discernible is because you are one. From the seller's perspective it's completely the opposite, and they consider well-behaved sellers to be just as obvious to buyers.

One well-known scam on Ebay is to buy, say, a motherboard to replace the one you've broken (maybe screwed over the CPU pins when doing an upgrade). Then you send your old one back pretending it's the new one and complain that the vendor has sold you bad stuff. As the Ebay rep who only sees the buyers photos and has the vendors word that it was OK when sent out, honest, who are you going to believe? The vendor more often than not loses out in those cases.

Why should Aliexpress be different? Well, obviously, it is cheaper and the shipping is peanuts out so vendors can basically give the stuff away, but it costs a fortune to return. So vendors are better off writing off stuff instead of paying for returns. Given the toerags that populate this world, and that the majority of Aliexpress customers are there precisely to save a few bob, what are the chances that they are all going to be straight-up guys?

--- End quote ---

I totally agree.   Most scammers are not geniuses, though (or they would be doing something else, lol).  There is a limit to how well they can keep up the charade against an opponent that's on the ball.

Hence, it can make sense to video the (un)packing of the box, showing the part numbers,  showing you turning it on, etc..   

I've recently had bad luck with two eBay cell phones in a row (both had internal tech issues, one was in a boot loop, the other had lost its wifi/bluetooth connectivity).  I had no problems whatsoever returning these items for a full refund,  with shipping paid by the seller...  but I have thousands of positive feedback over 20 years, and my complaints are always straightforward, to the point, and always includes pictures.

I recall once buying a heat gun from a Chinese seller on eBay.  He sent a 220V model with a US 115V plug on it...   To win that case,  I had to explain to both seller and eBay case managers why that idea was never going to work...    There was no way to ship it back economically even if it was an "honest mistake", and there was no way for me to make use of the item. - It was a total loss for the seller, and I threw it in the recycling.

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