Author Topic: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!  (Read 26649 times)

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Offline MK14

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #100 on: June 16, 2023, 12:35:10 pm »
The person that this happened to (Brandon Jackson), has published a Youtube video about the incident.  Here:



There is also, a fairly recent article about the incident here:
https://www.theregister.com/2023/06/15/amazon_echo_disabled_allegation/
 

Offline madires

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #101 on: June 16, 2023, 12:43:01 pm »
I think that Amazon crossed the line between what might be legal as part of the TOS and vigilantism, which is very concerning as they (and others) are pushing consumers hard to use their cloud and subscription based services.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2023, 05:15:33 pm by madires »
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #102 on: June 16, 2023, 12:47:23 pm »
The person that this happened to (Brandon Jackson), has published a Youtube video about the incident.  Here:

...

There is also, a fairly recent article about the incident here:
https://www.theregister.com/2023/06/15/amazon_echo_disabled_allegation/

That's not a video. It is a 15 minute static picture of a pretty box, with some added ums and ahs.

Your post might just become my go-to example of why 99.9% of yootoobe should be ignored. I'll bet that I picked up all the information in that 900s video within 60s, simply by reading the article! 15:1 is about par for the course.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline MK14

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #103 on: June 16, 2023, 12:51:50 pm »
The person that this happened to (Brandon Jackson), has published a Youtube video about the incident.  Here:

...

There is also, a fairly recent article about the incident here:
https://www.theregister.com/2023/06/15/amazon_echo_disabled_allegation/

That's not a video. It is a 15 minute static picture of a pretty box, with some added ums and ahs.

Your post might just become my go-to example of why 99.9% of yootoobe should be ignored. I'll bet that I picked up all the information in that 900s video within 60s, simply by reading the article! 15:1 is about par for the course.

In all fairness to the guy.  He is the (presumably) random victim here.  A random individual, is NOT suppose to be a hardened, Youtube expert, with 10 million subscribers, a $20,000 Video camera and great studio lighting etc.

So, I appreciate the fact that he spent the time and trouble, to carefully explain the situation, in more detail.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #104 on: June 16, 2023, 01:00:47 pm »
The person that this happened to (Brandon Jackson), has published a Youtube video about the incident.  Here:

...

There is also, a fairly recent article about the incident here:
https://www.theregister.com/2023/06/15/amazon_echo_disabled_allegation/

That's not a video. It is a 15 minute static picture of a pretty box, with some added ums and ahs.

Your post might just become my go-to example of why 99.9% of yootoobe should be ignored. I'll bet that I picked up all the information in that 900s video within 60s, simply by reading the article! 15:1 is about par for the course.

In all fairness to the guy.  He is the (presumably) random victim here.  A random individual, is NOT suppose to be a hardened, Youtube expert, with 10 million subscribers, a $20,000 Video camera and great studio lighting etc.

So, I appreciate the fact that he spent the time and trouble, to carefully explain the situation, in more detail.

He's a "Microsoft site reliability engineer", whatever that is.

He didn't make a video so he doesn't need a video camera and lighting etc. He does have (and knows how to use!) the necessary tool: a keyboard.

He had managed to publicise (good!) his experience without those ums and ahs. Let's hope Amazon receives even more widespread publicity, preferably with a cluebat.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #105 on: June 16, 2023, 01:10:27 pm »
He's a "Microsoft site reliability engineer", whatever that is.

He didn't make a video so he doesn't need a video camera and lighting etc. He does have (and knows how to use!) the necessary tool: a keyboard.

He had managed to publicise (good!) his experience without those ums and ahs. Let's hope Amazon receives even more widespread publicity, preferably with a cluebat.

If he produced the complaint as pure text using the keyboard, there would still be the problem, of how/where to publish it.  Would it get many views?

Whereas a Youtube video, even if it is essentially an audio recording of the same text.  Is easily published on Youtube, and may virally end up getting lots of views, as people talk about it and share its link.

Even Dave (EEVblog), sometimes makes 'Videos' which are mainly/essentially pure text/audio.  Albeit typically with a talking 'Dave' head, and maybe with the odd image tossed in, here and there.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #106 on: June 16, 2023, 01:22:15 pm »
He's a "Microsoft site reliability engineer", whatever that is.

He didn't make a video so he doesn't need a video camera and lighting etc. He does have (and knows how to use!) the necessary tool: a keyboard.

He had managed to publicise (good!) his experience without those ums and ahs. Let's hope Amazon receives even more widespread publicity, preferably with a cluebat.

If he produced the complaint as pure text using the keyboard, there would still be the problem, of how/where to publish it.  Would it get many views?

Whereas a Youtube video, even if it is essentially an audio recording of the same text.  Is easily published on Youtube, and may virally end up getting lots of views, as people talk about it and share its link.

Farcebook, Twatter, Ruddit are all set up to do exactly that. Plus, of course, there's email to places like El Reg.

Quote
Even Dave (EEVblog), sometimes makes 'Videos' which are mainly/essentially pure text/audio.  Albeit typically with a talking 'Dave' head, and maybe with the odd image tossed in, here and there.

In which case it changes nothing and I make the same comments.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #107 on: June 16, 2023, 02:34:49 pm »
If this gets any more pickup I think the best approach for Amazon is simply to grovel and say they will change bans to be by service rather than by account.

At some point just ignoring it does more damage than acknowledging it.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #108 on: June 16, 2023, 02:38:57 pm »
I think that Amazon crossed the line between what might be legal as part of the TOS and vigilantism, which is very conerning as they (and others) are pushing consumers hard to use their cloud and subscription based services.

I know what you mean.  I was recently trying to sort out some important (to me), technical things, using the internet (Google search), and it found stuff which would help and answer my questions.  But I couldn't access it.  Because of this Reddit moderator spat (something about change of management and charging for API access or something), where they had made the areas/forums which I needed, closed by being set to private only.

I found this annoying.  I did find some information, elsewhere.  But it is NOT clear, if the Reddit information would have helped me, a lot more or not.  At a guess, it would have.  As there were very few other sources of information, on the subject.

It shows how vulnerable modern things/systems can be.

I suppose what a number of posters in this thread are effectively saying, is that an Amazon account, should be split between buying privileges (being able to make purchases and hence deliveries), and the rest of an Amazon accounts functionality, which should probably remain working.  Even if banned/cancelled, with very rare extreme exceptions.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #109 on: June 16, 2023, 04:24:42 pm »
If this gets any more pickup I think the best approach for Amazon is simply to grovel and say they will change bans to be by service rather than by account.
NO! Just stop shutting down and banning things. There isn't a person alive who doesn't have some view that will piss off someone else. Are you OK with everyone banning everyone else for any minor infraction? I think Amazon are a really nasty company, that we'd be better off without, but I don't want them banned. They should have the same respect for others.
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #110 on: June 16, 2023, 06:22:14 pm »
Are you OK with everyone banning everyone else for any minor infraction?

In the absence of massive trusts, yes I do support freedom of association.

Unfortunately this is the age of Trusts far more even than the Standard Oil days.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #111 on: June 16, 2023, 06:22:44 pm »
There are LOTS of things, over many decades (and probably much, much longer), that sooner or later, have to be taken out of usage, because the manufacturer has decided to drop support for the thing.  I think we just have learnt to quietly accept these things.

Yes but that isn't what happened here. These are fully supported current products that were simply shut off without warning.

I try very hard to avoid buying anything that relies on some cloud service somewhere to work. I do have a few Echo devices and I put up with the limitations on those, but many of the other things you mention have no business relying on any kind of online infrastructure.
 
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Offline hans

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #112 on: June 16, 2023, 08:28:43 pm »
@MK14: and that is why people still like to "own" media. Buying CDs and vinyl has actually become quite popular again. Technically and/or convenience it is inferior to any modern alternative, like high quality FLAC distributions or streaming music from Spotify. But aren't these streaming services like Spotify, Netflix, etc. all known for suddenly pulling down a show? And so some people avoid them at all costs.

Similar things can be said from games. There is GOG, but honestly I never buy there. The convenience from a platform such as Steam is too big, of which I must admit its (large) trust seems to be assigned somewhat semi-randomly. They are one of the longer and bigger running webstores, which they seem to be doing quite well, however they also have plenty of downsides. Valve deals out VAC bans with no chance of appeal and evidence. Bans can be life-time long. The ban is accountwide for any VAC protected game. So you may play a game with friends on a drinking night using some cheats for the giggles, next thing you know and you can't play normal online matches anymore. Obviously there are several stakeholders: there is Steam, the game developer/publisher, the cheater and the rest of the online community. I think these bans are fair though, because cheating wrecks an online gaming experience rather quickly. Given how many games also feature microtransactions or DLCs, its also of best interest for game devs to have people keep playing their game. Steam also makes a cut on those sales. The loss to the 1 cheater versus potentially dozens of people that then keep playing does not weigh in favour of the cheater.

But let's draw a parallel to this Amazon case. The circle of influence of 1 guy is potentially small, however, compounded effects are potentially more important where taking offense to something is at least (semi-)subjective: not everyone's moral standard is the same, however, lowering those standards as per the letter of the law is also often not the right thing to do. So lets assume that the message (whether racist or not) was undoubtedly offense. I think it's fairly obvious that Amazons interest is also to prevent abuse of their devices, as it could give them a bad rep.

To this degree, I could establish the same conditions as are the case for an account-wide VAC ban like is the case for Steam. And I don't think such a system has received such backlash for it, even though a customer has paid, Valve/game dev makes the rules, and does not have to explain what/why they did take action. And its standards could even change without any influence of the consumer on them. It also sounds very unfair on paper. Yet in practice we seem to hold game cheaters (which can also remorse) to much higher standards than the morals people have with respect to other people.

I think (big) tech will be charged with such abuse-prevention tasks more increasingly. Social media platforms are instructed to remove fake news, hatred and scams. Google may ban accounts before any judge has concluded anything. Banks must scan transactions for suspicious activity and freeze those accounts. In general, I don't think we don't have any absolutes anymore, as they are shifting continuously at a high pace, We expect/need immediate responses in the tech world, instead of the more classical innocent until proven guilty. If you don't want that, it appears the best suggestion is to not to use (big) tech.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2023, 08:34:07 pm by hans »
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #113 on: June 16, 2023, 08:57:43 pm »
@MK14: and that is why people still like to "own" media. Buying CDs and vinyl has actually become quite popular again. Technically and/or convenience it is inferior to any modern alternative, like high quality FLAC distributions or streaming music from Spotify. But aren't these streaming services like Spotify, Netflix, etc. all known for suddenly pulling down a show? And so some people avoid them at all costs.

Similar things can be said from games. There is GOG, but honestly I never buy there. The convenience from a platform such as Steam is too big, of which I must admit its (large) trust seems to be assigned somewhat semi-randomly. They are one of the longer and bigger running webstores, which they seem to be doing quite well, however they also have plenty of downsides. Valve deals out VAC bans with no chance of appeal and evidence. Bans can be life-time long. The ban is accountwide for any VAC protected game. So you may play a game with friends on a drinking night using some cheats for the giggles, next thing you know and you can't play normal online matches anymore. Obviously there are several stakeholders: there is Steam, the game developer/publisher, the cheater and the rest of the online community. I think these bans are fair though, because cheating wrecks an online gaming experience rather quickly. Given how many games also feature microtransactions or DLCs, its also of best interest for game devs to have people keep playing their game. Steam also makes a cut on those sales. The loss to the 1 cheater versus potentially dozens of people that then keep playing does not weigh in favour of the cheater.

But let's draw a parallel to this Amazon case. The circle of influence of 1 guy is potentially small, however, compounded effects are potentially more important where taking offense to something is at least (semi-)subjective: not everyone's moral standard is the same, however, lowering those standards as per the letter of the law is also often not the right thing to do. So lets assume that the message (whether racist or not) was undoubtedly offense. I think it's fairly obvious that Amazons interest is also to prevent abuse of their devices, as it could give them a bad rep.

To this degree, I could establish the same conditions as are the case for an account-wide VAC ban like is the case for Steam. And I don't think such a system has received such backlash for it, even though a customer has paid, Valve/game dev makes the rules, and does not have to explain what/why they did take action. And its standards could even change without any influence of the consumer on them. It also sounds very unfair on paper. Yet in practice we seem to hold game cheaters (which can also remorse) to much higher standards than the morals people have with respect to other people.

I think (big) tech will be charged with such abuse-prevention tasks more increasingly. Social media platforms are instructed to remove fake news, hatred and scams. Google may ban accounts before any judge has concluded anything. Banks must scan transactions for suspicious activity and freeze those accounts. In general, I don't think we don't have any absolutes anymore, as they are shifting continuously at a high pace, We expect/need immediate responses in the tech world, instead of the more classical innocent until proven guilty. If you don't want that, it appears the best suggestion is to not to use (big) tech.

One of the biggest problems I find (which is both ON and OFF topic, as regards this thread), is when the original 'friendly/nice' company, e.g. Steam.  Gets taken over (perhaps against the wishes of the original company, i.e. a hostile takeover), by a considerably nastier (consumer wise) company.  Who then stretch the TOS (Terms Of Service), or even change the TOS, with little or no notice.

Then suddenly, unprofitable services gets dropped, activities which were free and didn't need a subscription, now need a horrible paid subscription.  Anonymous accounts, now need to be tied to identities.

Easy/safe payment systems are dropped and nasty/horrible/unsafe ones are used instead.

Advert free things are now given adverts.

Owner for life stuff (e.g. Purchased games on steam), are given time-limits and/or need subscriptions or something.

In the case of Amazon, as some others seem to be agreeing.  They seem to be changing for the worse, all by themselves.  As time goes on.  This 'account banning' incident, seems to be just a part of those changes.

Also, these 'online cloud services', can make it extremely difficult to change providers.  E.g. If someone has accumulated hundreds of games on steam and paid hundreds or thousands of dollars/GBP's/Euros for them.  You can't transfer them to a new company, even if the current 'steam/Valve' company gets taken over by a nasty company or has a change of management for the worse.

Intel use to keep support for vintage Intel products on their website.  In modern times, they literally delete older stuff (which actually is not that old).  I don't know why they now do that (change of management, crazy marketing department?).  But it means that it can be difficult to get support for some older Intel things, such as development boards and stuff.  Just because they are older than some threshold (5 years or maybe 10 years, I'm not clear).

Which combines VERY badly with the fact that you need to go online to 'enable' the development board in the first place (firmware update, OS download etc).  Making a once semi-expensive development system, potentially worthless junk.  Even though it is not that old.
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #114 on: June 16, 2023, 09:58:24 pm »
They are basically acting as companies that are near-monopolies, at which point the customer doesn't matter anymore, as they have an almost infinite stream of them.
This is short-sighted though, as it can spiral down very quickly.

As a customer, don't use online services if you can, or only for very non-essential stuff. In that regard, you should act as an investor: only invest the money you're ready to lose. So, only subscribe to services you're ready to be cut of off at any point with no, or only minor consequences.
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #115 on: June 17, 2023, 07:23:25 am »
Quote
only subscribe to services you're ready to be cut of off at any point with no, or only minor consequences

Ideally, yes, but these things tend to escalate and before you know it you're relying on something you found useful after you started using it.
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #116 on: June 17, 2023, 12:00:44 pm »
They are basically acting as companies that are near-monopolies
When you are an also-ran up against the greatest Trust in history, that's a really dangerous way to act.

Amazon is just going to drive all its customers to Apple as far as home automation is concerned ... and hell, maybe Apple will decide it wants to do groceries and appliances too, then they'll just take it all. Amazon is on thin ice.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #117 on: June 17, 2023, 02:19:59 pm »
Quote
Amazon is just going to drive all its customers to Apple as far as home automation is concerned

Doubt it - if you're not in the Apple ecosystem then switching your life to learn, and put up with, Apple's diktats is a step too far just to be able to turn a lamp on or off. Amazon is a minnow, piggy-backing on the actual providers like ewelink and tuya.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #118 on: June 17, 2023, 07:49:02 pm »
Amazon is just going to drive all its customers to Apple as far as home automation is concerned ... and hell, maybe Apple will decide it wants to do groceries and appliances too, then they'll just take it all. Amazon is on thin ice.

Apple is no better than Amazon really, and a lot less popular as far as I've seen. I know loads of people with Amazon devices, a handful with Google devices, but zero with any Apple home automation stuff. It's every bit as proprietary as everything else on the market, arguably more so. As I've mentioned before, I quite like my employer issued Macbook but I would never spend my own money on one and get locked into such a limited ecosystem. I like my iPhone for the most part but there are many things that annoy me about it, primarily the inability to roll back any updates, neither the OS nor apps, I have been burned enough times by updates breaking something that I no longer allow anything on my phone to update ever unless I am completely forced into it and I hate being forced. It's less a matter of which mobile platform I like more and more a case of which one I hate less.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #119 on: June 23, 2023, 07:59:20 am »
Follow-up from Louis Rossmann:
Amazon cancels my account after exposing account lockout for "racist doorbell"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kcohq313q00&t=237s

He didn't bow to our corporate overlords.
 
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Offline madires

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #120 on: June 23, 2023, 08:11:50 am »
That's the worst possible thing they could have done (shooting the messenger). It's now out in the public - shitstorm in 3 ... 2 ...
« Last Edit: June 23, 2023, 04:44:35 pm by madires »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #121 on: June 23, 2023, 08:41:03 am »
It took them just 7 years to suddenly review an application, find totally BS reasons and reject a "temporary account".

« Last Edit: June 23, 2023, 08:44:31 am by wraper »
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #122 on: June 23, 2023, 02:00:11 pm »
Follow-up from Louis Rossmann:
Amazon cancels my account after exposing account lockout for "racist doorbell"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kcohq313q00&t=237s

He didn't bow to our corporate overlords.

If it is not simply just an amazing coincidence.  Then that is ridiculous that Amazon has handled this situation this way.

As I see it, these 'bad publicity' reports, have been useful information, on how Amazon can improve its services, for its customers, in the future.

They should be reacting in a nice and good way and improving things.  Instead they seem to be using bullying tactics.  Which imply to me Amazon have absolutely no intention of improving, as regards these 'complaints'.

At some point, Amazon could go down hill enough, that better informed customers, will or should know, to avoid doing business with them.

Surely such antics break one or more laws in the US, such as freedom of speech or another one of the basic rights.

Analogy:
There is just one big fast-food place, in the entire small city, the next nearest being way, way out of town.  They sometimes serve terrible food, and if you complain and ask for a decent replacement or your money back. They then permanently ban you from their fast-food place, on made up or for highly-exaggerated reasons.

Effectively blackmailing people to just grin and bare, the terrible services and at times bad food quality of that fast-food place, because it effectively has a monopoly on that entire small city.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2023, 02:04:38 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline jpanhalt

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #123 on: June 23, 2023, 03:21:19 pm »
You touch on a couple of items in America that are easily misunderstood.  Our First Amendment (freedom of speech, religion, etc.) only applies to government actions, not business actions.  However, the back door to that is a claim of discrimination against a "protected class." (Yes, America has a class system.)  Mr. Rossmann is probably not a protected class in that sense.   Viewpoint, political party, and wealth don't constitute a protected class.

Another consideration involves what is commonly called a "place of public accommodation."  Here is a quote about Ohio law, which is probably pretty common in every state:
Quote
The Ohio Civil Rights Commission investigates cases that allege discrimination has occurred in a place of public accommodation within the State of Ohio.  In order to file a charge of discrimination for this reason, the act of discrimination must have occurred no more than six (6) months prior to the date of filing a charge of discrimination.

A place of public accommodation is a place that offers accommodations, advantages, facilities, or privileges that are available to the public.  An example of a place of public accommodation would include, but is not limited to, supermarkets, movie theaters, hotels, and amusement parks.  Patrons/guests are entitled to receive the full enjoyment of the accommodations, advantages, facilities, or privileges of the place of public accommodation.

I suspect Mr. Rossmann has already spoken with counsel and knows his options.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #124 on: June 23, 2023, 04:19:26 pm »
Really, Amazon could be making a big mistake, messing around with Louis Rossmann.  He has a big Youtube channel with lots of followers (around 2 million subscribers), but is well known in the wider technical communities as well.

He also, is what I would consider (not trying to be rude here), a significant 'activist' character.  E.g. For things like the right to repair.

He also probably creates contacts in the right places, to gain political influence and similar.  To attempt to get new laws and stuff in place.

I see him as effectively being a modern day news/journalist, and hence should be protected in law.  So he can investigate things where necessary and freely report his findings.  It use to be that such people officially worked for newspapers and TV studios.

But these days, big influential Youtube channels, are a bit like past small community regional newspapers and communication channels (Radio and TV).

I'm not sure if freedom of the press laws, are flexible enough to count Louis Rossmann, as an amateur independent, smaller one.  Or if the existing laws need to be reviewed (not necessarily just in America), as times are gradually changing/shifting.

Edit: In fairness, there is a degree of difference between professional journalists (the press), and big influential Youtube channels.  So, I'm not sure how these different, modern day 'roles' should be defined and treated in law.
A sort of professional/official journalist on TV or newspaper, vs a modern day amateur Youtube mini journalist like, part time role.  But still important, over some issues at times.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2023, 04:25:12 pm by MK14 »
 


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