Author Topic: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!  (Read 26637 times)

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Offline PlainName

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #125 on: June 23, 2023, 06:02:24 pm »
Quote
and hence should be protected in law

Against what?
 

Online RJSV

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #126 on: June 23, 2023, 06:26:11 pm »
   If the delivery person was black (in U.S.), they might react negatively to being challenged by the phrase "Can I help you ?",  as the feeling, often, is that a white person gets to walk there, unchallenged.
But upon unpacking that phrase, especially when it's an unbiased motion detector, in total that wouldn't or shouldn't be interpreted (so fast) as it's really a simple private property incursion.  Brings up a legal question regarding front doors and mailboxes.  I'd expect to find out that it's legal to go to private front door, but maybe some kind of 'Loitering' time limit, as front yards are still private property.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #127 on: June 23, 2023, 06:30:42 pm »
Quote
and hence should be protected in law

Against what?

This should explain it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #128 on: June 23, 2023, 09:41:56 pm »
Quote
and hence should be protected in law

Against what?

This should explain it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press

That's essentially the same as the free speech thing: it prohibits the state from doing stuff. Amazon isn't a state and can do whatever they want, unfettered by this 'protection' stuff. There is actually nothing wrong with that, legally or morally, but many freedom of speech advocates conflate 'everyone and everything' with 'the state'.

Personally, I think Amazon are daft. They've not gained anything from cutting off Rossmann and just ensured he's not going to be their friend or give them the benefit of the doubt. Wouldn't've cost them a thing to just ignore it.
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #129 on: June 23, 2023, 10:44:51 pm »
Quote
and hence should be protected in law

Against what?

This should explain it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press

That's essentially the same as the free speech thing: it prohibits the state from doing stuff. Amazon isn't a state and can do whatever they want, unfettered by this 'protection' stuff. There is actually nothing wrong with that, legally or morally, but many freedom of speech advocates conflate 'everyone and everything' with 'the state'.

Personally, I think Amazon are daft. They've not gained anything from cutting off Rossmann and just ensured he's not going to be their friend or give them the benefit of the doubt. Wouldn't've cost them a thing to just ignore it.

Amazon have gained, viz scaring people into not criticising them for fear of losing access to accounts and services.

Whether that is a sensible trade-off is not clear to me.

Personally it just serves as a reminder why people were so ecstatic to be able to get their data processing out of the clutches of timesharing mainframe computer bureaux, and onto their own PCs.
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Offline Zero999Topic starter

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #130 on: June 24, 2023, 03:01:41 pm »
Quote
and hence should be protected in law

Against what?

This should explain it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press

That's essentially the same as the free speech thing: it prohibits the state from doing stuff. Amazon isn't a state and can do whatever they want, unfettered by this 'protection' stuff. There is actually nothing wrong with that, legally or morally, but many freedom of speech advocates conflate 'everyone and everything' with 'the state'.
The problem is the state and private companies are intertwined. A lot of the censorship on social media has come governments threatening them with more regulation.
 
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Online jpanhalt

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #131 on: June 24, 2023, 04:17:28 pm »
The problem is the state and private companies are intertwined. A lot of the censorship on social media has come governments threatening them with more regulation.

As I mentioned earlier, there are "backdoor" approaches that limit free speech in America, both for individuals and corporations.

Everyone knows about the exception to free speech for yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.  Less obvious is an example I quote in context from a well known judge in Ohio, "You can burn the American flag, but you cannot burn a cross." The former is protected free speech; the latter is considered a threat to a protected class. 

Businesses are subject to that same backdoor and an additional approach based on the "Commerce" clause in our Constitution that allows government(s) to regulate businesses.  For example, there are rules regulating advertising alcoholic beverages and tobacco.  One recent example is the AG of Minnesota has threatened Target for moving LGBTQ-centered merchandise displays to less prominent locations in its stores.  Fourteen other state AG's joined in the letter.  The basis was discrimination against another protected class.

It's complex, and as the number of protected classes increases, restrictions are increasing.
 
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Online RJSV

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #132 on: June 24, 2023, 04:36:47 pm »
PlainName:
   Sorry, but I beg to differ, and strongly so.

   Yup, call it 'controversy', call (this) a personal attack (a term often used, in substitute for a simple 'Shut up', we folks don't entertain any conspiracy theorist....
   United States has a big problem, with media and large corporations getting tangled up together in very inappropriate ways.  Go ahead, dismiss dismiss dismiss.  Next thing, you might be starting to call (myself) an 'Anti-Vaxer' Musk lover.

   United States has a big problem, with media and state actors sharing info obtained through shady channels.  My 'rants', above, initially are a reference to the newly emphasized tactic, that is, smear your critics.  Gaslighting and all that, of course not new, but has become a central playbook to distract from incoming criticism.

   Some folks, here, have all but abandoned the idea of confronting (the improper relations between certain state actors and many media outlets, including Amazon in whatever capacity they use PR).
That is because FACTS don't get through, or seem to get traction, verbally.  Just a stiff armed block and a dismissive retort.
   I'm responding, mainly, for other readers here, that might care to think for themselves.
 
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Offline TimFox

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #133 on: June 24, 2023, 04:56:00 pm »
The problem is the state and private companies are intertwined. A lot of the censorship on social media has come governments threatening them with more regulation.

As I mentioned earlier, there are "backdoor" approaches that limit free speech in America, both for individuals and corporations.

Everyone knows about the exception to free speech for yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.  Less obvious is an example I quote in context from a well known judge in Ohio, "You can burn the American flag, but you cannot burn a cross." The former is protected free speech; the latter is considered a threat to a protected class. 

Businesses are subject to that same backdoor and an additional approach based on the "Commerce" clause in our Constitution that allows government(s) to regulate businesses.  For example, there are rules regulating advertising alcoholic beverages and tobacco.  One recent example is the AG of Minnesota has threatened Target for moving LGBTQ-centered merchandise displays to less prominent locations in its stores.  Fourteen other state AG's joined in the letter.  The basis was discrimination against another protected class.

It's complex, and as the number of protected classes increases, restrictions are increasing.

A large number of KKK-style cross-burning episodes burned a cross on the property of an unwanted person, with obvious intent.
https://psmag.com/news/cross-burning-is-more-common-than-you-think-72781
 

Offline Zero999Topic starter

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #134 on: June 24, 2023, 05:28:33 pm »
The problem is the state and private companies are intertwined. A lot of the censorship on social media has come governments threatening them with more regulation.

As I mentioned earlier, there are "backdoor" approaches that limit free speech in America, both for individuals and corporations.

Everyone knows about the exception to free speech for yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.  Less obvious is an example I quote in context from a well known judge in Ohio, "You can burn the American flag, but you cannot burn a cross." The former is protected free speech; the latter is considered a threat to a protected class. 

Businesses are subject to that same backdoor and an additional approach based on the "Commerce" clause in our Constitution that allows government(s) to regulate businesses.  For example, there are rules regulating advertising alcoholic beverages and tobacco.  One recent example is the AG of Minnesota has threatened Target for moving LGBTQ-centered merchandise displays to less prominent locations in its stores.  Fourteen other state AG's joined in the letter.  The basis was discrimination against another protected class.

It's complex, and as the number of protected classes increases, restrictions are increasing.

A large number of KKK-style cross-burning episodes burned a cross on the property of an unwanted person, with obvious intent.
https://psmag.com/news/cross-burning-is-more-common-than-you-think-72781
That's obviously different to one's own private property.

In the UK, actor Laurence Fox, put a film of him burning some Pride flags in his back garden and has been investigated by the police for a hate crime.  I see it as a stilly stunt, rather than a hate crime. I can see why it will offend some people, but I can also understand why he did it. Either way, he should have the right to do it. No one was harassed, or harmed by his actions.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #135 on: June 24, 2023, 05:42:09 pm »
Quote
and hence should be protected in law

Against what?

This should explain it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press

That's essentially the same as the free speech thing: it prohibits the state from doing stuff. Amazon isn't a state and can do whatever they want, unfettered by this 'protection' stuff. There is actually nothing wrong with that, legally or morally, but many freedom of speech advocates conflate 'everyone and everything' with 'the state'.
The problem is the state and private companies are intertwined. A lot of the censorship on social media has come governments threatening them with more regulation.
I would say it's obvious that the law is never finished and it's never perfect, since it wasn't handed to us on a stone tablet.
I think there is a long overdue of extension of free speech, protecting people and free will from corporations and ideology.
 
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Online RJSV

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #136 on: June 24, 2023, 10:59:51 pm »
Zero999:   I read your comments, about someone harmlessly burning (gay flag), in private backyard, to kind of poke fun at the ease that 'hate speach' labels get put on people.
Now, I can't decipher this whole thread, the twists and turns would make my haed explode, on a Saturday morn.  But thought of a similar dynamic, (pls see movie, 'BLAZING SADDLES',), where a black dude, simultaneously 'takes his own self as hostage', and also crying out as, 'victim', pleading out for help.

   Probably several 'hate speech' violations there....or maybe even could be jailed in the EU, for even possessing such satire, or watching...
   The movie lampooned just about every sensitive group.

See also:  Kat Timpf's book;
   'YOU CAN'T SAY THAT'
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #137 on: June 25, 2023, 05:29:31 am »
...(pls see movie, 'BLAZING SADDLES',)...
   Probably several 'hate speech' violations there....or maybe even could be jailed in the EU, for even possessing such satire, or watching...
   The movie lampooned just about every sensitive group.

Please don't make ignorant political points.

Apart from anything else it makes you look foolish or worse.
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Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #138 on: June 25, 2023, 05:41:32 am »

« Last Edit: June 25, 2023, 05:43:21 am by VK3DRB »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #139 on: June 25, 2023, 06:31:23 am »
In the UK, actor Laurence Fox, put a film of him burning some Pride flags in his back garden and has been investigated by the police for a hate crime.  I see it as a stilly stunt, rather than a hate crime. I can see why it will offend some people, but I can also understand why he did it. Either way, he should have the right to do it. No one was harassed, or harmed by his actions.

Here that would be Constitutionally protected free speech, that won't necessarily prevent one from being cancelled by the mob but they can't be prosecuted for it.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #140 on: June 25, 2023, 06:32:55 am »
Everyone knows about the exception to free speech for yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.  Less obvious is an example I quote in context from a well known judge in Ohio, "You can burn the American flag, but you cannot burn a cross." The former is protected free speech; the latter is considered a threat to a protected class. 

I don't see how burning a cross on your own property could be considered a threat. Burning a cross in someone else's yard is certainly a threat.
 

Online jpanhalt

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #141 on: June 25, 2023, 09:44:57 am »
@james_s

One way to find out.  Do it in your front yard.  Or, go to any demonstration in which the American flag is being burned and burn a cross. 

Did you follow the Bubba Wallace affair in which he accused someone at NASCAR of hanging a noose (Google: Bubba Wallace noose)?  Even the FBI got involved to determine whether it was a "hate" crime.  The "hate crime" specification is a slippery slope and has already been abused several time.  Unfortunately, such imaginary "crimes" -- like the Amazon example for this thread -- are never prosecuted.  In the meantime, the lives of those falsely accused are ruined. 
 
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #142 on: June 25, 2023, 11:43:22 am »
how much Stockholm syndrome does someone need to have to only "seriously consider" dropping Amazon after being treated like that?

I've never been an Amazon fan.  They would never notice my absence.  Maybe I should buy a bunch of stuff, then cancel my account.  Make them sorry I left.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #143 on: June 25, 2023, 06:57:19 pm »
@james_s

One way to find out.  Do it in your front yard.  Or, go to any demonstration in which the American flag is being burned and burn a cross. 

Did you follow the Bubba Wallace affair in which he accused someone at NASCAR of hanging a noose (Google: Bubba Wallace noose)?  Even the FBI got involved to determine whether it was a "hate" crime.  The "hate crime" specification is a slippery slope and has already been abused several time.  Unfortunately, such imaginary "crimes" -- like the Amazon example for this thread -- are never prosecuted.  In the meantime, the lives of those falsely accused are ruined.

I'm not going to try it because I know people would find it offensive and I don't want to offend people, however offending people is not a crime here.

Yes I do remember that Bubba Wallace incident, and I thought it was hilarious that it blew up to that extent and then turned out that the "noose" was a simple door pull to enable shorter people to close the rollup door and that it had been there for years. It's a perfect example of one of those situations where someone is looking for hate and bias and sees it all around them in benign things.

Personally I don't think "hate crime" should even be a legal concept. A crime is a crime, it makes no difference what motivated the crime. If a person is assaulted or murdered it doesn't matter if it's because the perpetrator didn't like some aspect of their affiliation with a protected class, just wanted to steal their wallet, or engaged in a totally random attack for reasons unknown, the result is exactly the same.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #144 on: June 25, 2023, 06:58:27 pm »
I've never been an Amazon fan.  They would never notice my absence.  Maybe I should buy a bunch of stuff, then cancel my account.  Make them sorry I left.

They won't notice even then, the entire process would be handled by mostly automated systems, you'd be just another drop in the bucket of overall statistical data.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #145 on: June 28, 2023, 04:20:19 pm »
Personally I don't think "hate crime" should even be a legal concept. A crime is a crime, it makes no difference what motivated the crime. If a person is assaulted or murdered it doesn't matter if it's because the perpetrator didn't like some aspect of their affiliation with a protected class, just wanted to steal their wallet, or engaged in a totally random attack for reasons unknown, the result is exactly the same.
You need a lot of hate in your heart to think that hate crimes make sense. You can't know what's in someone's head when they do something bad. It just projection. Legally it should be irrelevant. Either some action is acceptable or unacceptable to society. Outlaw the unacceptable.

 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #146 on: June 28, 2023, 04:56:28 pm »
Quote
Either some action is acceptable or unacceptable to society. Outlaw the unacceptable.

I think that's the problem: trying to outlaw the unacceptable, being specific enough to catch workarounds that skip the letter of a law but not dragging in unintended stuff. A hate crime is basically someone being malicious, but how do you outlaw that?
 

Offline TimFox

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Offline PlainName

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #148 on: June 28, 2023, 05:23:25 pm »
Malicious mischief is a US thing, and it only covers physical damage. Here in the UK we don't have that. For us, 'hate crime' is calling someone names and upsetting them (bit of poetic license there).
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #149 on: June 28, 2023, 05:31:00 pm »
"Malicious Mischief" is an offense in Scottish common law.
Does the Vatican's canon law include this crime?
 


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