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Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
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gnuarm:

--- Quote from: Zero999 on June 29, 2023, 11:28:43 am ---There's nothing wrong with hate. It's a perfectly normal human emotion. A good number of crimes are motivated by hate. I don't see why the punishment should be any different, whether the motive is greed, hate or lust. Perhaps the punishment could be lighter if it was accidental i.e. carelessness.

--- End quote ---

Yes, there is something wrong with hate.  The crime committed may be relatively innocuous, such as placing something on a lawn.  But if the message sent was onerous enough, it requires a much more severe punishment.
TimFox:
In criminal law, there are "mitigating" circumstances that result in a reduced punishment and "aggravating" circumstances that result in increased punishment.
A recent example of the latter was the mass shooting at a Pittsburgh synagogue.
The defendant was convicted this month in Federal court of multiple charges that included the current version of the "Hate Crimes Prevention Act" and is about to be sentenced.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard_and_James_Byrd_Jr._Hate_Crimes_Prevention_Act
Evidence for the "hate" part included copious postings of anti-Semitic and racist rants on social media.

As passed, the revised Act contains a "Rule of Construction" which specifically provides that "Nothing in this Act...shall be construed to prohibit any expressive conduct protected from legal prohibition by, or any activities protected by the free speech or free exercise clauses of, the First Amendment to the Constitution". 
"Hate crime" is defined as "a crime in which the defendant intentionally selects a victim, or in the case of a property crime, the property that is the object of the crime, because of the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, gender, disability, or sexual orientation of any person."
PlainName:

--- Quote from: james_s on June 29, 2023, 05:25:41 pm ---Calling someone names on Twitter is not a crime, at least not in any reasonable society.
--- End quote ---

Please keep up with the thread - over here that kind of thing is made out to be a crime. The aforementioned display of golliwogs had a bunch of police turn up to remove them and take the offender in for questioning. You can get nicked for being nasty on twitter.

I think that even where you are, if you start racist shit you'll be taken in, won't you? But that's just sticks and stones. As is transgender stuff (which has also resulted in a court appearance here). So, way back in this thread, coppice said (in response to you, and with my emphasis):


--- Quote ---You need a lot of hate in your heart to think that hate crimes make sense. You can't know what's in someone's head when they do something bad. It just projection. Legally it should be irrelevant. Either some action is acceptable or unacceptable to society. Outlaw the unacceptable.
--- End quote ---

And I replied:


--- Quote from: PlainName on June 28, 2023, 04:56:28 pm ---
--- Quote ---Either some action is acceptable or unacceptable to society. Outlaw the unacceptable.
--- End quote ---

I think that's the problem: trying to outlaw the unacceptable, being specific enough to catch workarounds that skip the letter of a law but not dragging in unintended stuff. A hate crime is basically someone being malicious, but how do you outlaw that?

--- End quote ---

As such, I am asking how hate crime could be outlawed without it going too far.

I trust you are now up to date and can follow the thread on your own from here on.
james_s:

--- Quote from: PlainName on June 29, 2023, 05:42:17 pm ---I think that even where you are, if you start racist shit you'll be taken in, won't you? But that's just sticks and stones. As is transgender stuff (which has also resulted in a court appearance here). So, way back in this thread, coppice said (in response to you, and with my emphasis):

--- End quote ---

Well, I said "in any reasonable society", there are of course unreasonable and rather dystopian societies in the world.

No. You may be tried, convicted and sentenced in the court of public opinion, you could find yourself out of a job and banished from social circles but you cannot be arrested and charged with a crime for saying racist things, it's protected free speech. In order to be arrested for saying something it has to be either a threat of physical harm or direct harassment of an individual. It is perfectly legal to be a bigot, we still have a handful of neonazis and such, they're free to speak their opinions and the rest of us are free to think they're idiots. Trying to fight ideas and beliefs with force simply doesn't work, it only drives it underground.
Zero999:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on June 29, 2023, 05:38:08 pm ---
--- Quote from: Zero999 on June 29, 2023, 11:28:43 am ---There's nothing wrong with hate. It's a perfectly normal human emotion. A good number of crimes are motivated by hate. I don't see why the punishment should be any different, whether the motive is greed, hate or lust. Perhaps the punishment could be lighter if it was accidental i.e. carelessness.

--- End quote ---

Yes, there is something wrong with hate. 
--- End quote ---
What's wrong with hate?

--- Quote ---The crime committed may be relatively innocuous, such as placing something on a lawn.  But if the message sent was onerous enough, it requires a much more severe punishment.
--- End quote ---
Why?


--- Quote from: PlainName on June 29, 2023, 05:42:17 pm ---I think that even where you are, if you start racist shit you'll be taken in, won't you? But that's just sticks and stones. As is transgender stuff (which has also resulted in a court appearance here). So, way back in this thread, coppice said (in response to you, and with my emphasis):

--- End quote ---
They only do something about racism, if it's directed at protected minorities, otherwise it's sticks and stones.

It's not possible to outlaw everything which is unacceptable. As has been hinted at above: it's impossible to determine the rational behind someone's actions and even if it's obvious, it should the their actions which need to be punished. For example burning the pride flag might offend people, but it should be protected free speech. I don't agree with everything Laurence Fox says, but I'm familiar enough with his views to know he wasn't advocating violence. My guess is he disagrees with trans activists, who only represent a tiny minority.
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