Author Topic: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!  (Read 26680 times)

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Offline wraper

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2023, 09:04:35 am »
The delivery driver isn't the problem here, maybe he really did think he heard a racist comment. The issue is in the way Amazon handled it, guilty until proven innocent. If they were going to do anything, they should have investigated first, and taken action only once it is PROVEN that the customer committed some kind of offense that is in breach of contract and even then unless it was an actual credible threat or act of violence then the only action should be a warning. There's an old saying "the customer is always right" that companies seem to be forgetting about.
Even if he actually made a racist remark, deny him delivery of goods so he does not get to interact with their drivers. Even if the guy was a racist KKK member, he still should be able to use the devices he paid for.
 
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Offline tom66

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2023, 09:28:23 am »
There's a reason I got rid of all of our Wi-Fi bulbs and peripherals and moved the system to a locally hosted Zigbee network.  There's a cloud - but I own it!
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2023, 09:33:04 am »
There was a potentially fairly serious incident


really? someone says they thought they heard a racist remark

When writing replies on the internet, with a wide ranging audience.  I tried to choose the best words, to most likely NOT offend anyone here. (politically correct).

It is arguably serious, because anything that is 'serious' enough for Amazon in practice to ban/close your Amazon account, along with all its services.  Is therefore 'serious', as it has bad consequences.

If a customer really is, shouting racist abuse at delivery people (it seems there was a mistake in this case), that is not acceptable.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2023, 09:44:29 am »
Smart homes are a dumb enough in the first, but why connect to a cloud service?
If you have to "smartify" your house then use a local system that has no internet connection.

It means that if a person or family wants to, they can view various internal/external security cameras, in various positions.  Which can give them reassurance, when away from home.

It means they can have access to a set of their files, such as family pictures and videos.  Which can be shown to other people or even given links to the material, on all their internet capable devices.

Yes, most of the users on this particular forum, could probably set up their own local 'cloud' services.

But members of the general population, might be scared and not know how to set up servers and such services, locally and may not even realise that it can be done, without using external cloud companies, and paying (often) monthly fees, which soon add up.

I like the idea of being able to switch some things on and off, via commands.  E.g. Extra lighting, cooling fans, sometimes other stuff.

But a better (much cheaper, no expensive subscriptions, no internet needed, no wasting time with complicated setups) way, is to use a relatively cheap remote control switched set of plug in mains sockets.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2023, 10:04:45 am »
The reason Wi-Fi smart devices are more common:

- No need for a central hub if you have a Wi-Fi router which almost everyone does have
- No need to open ports on the router to access cloud function (the bulb maintains the connection)
- Automatically creates a 'cloud' if you have access to this server

Of course, the privacy implications of having a bulb constantly talking to a server in a country that may not be super friendly... yeah, not great.

Compared to the Zigbee option I chose:

- Need a central coordinator and a Wi-Fi router
- Have to run custom software on this coordinator (RasPi running Home Assistant in a Docker container)
- Had to set up my own SSL certificate to secure my open connection (not doing so would be stupid)
- Had to get a free DNS set up so I have a consistent end point to access
- Had to open ports on the router

You don't have to do all of this, but if you want to use an off the shelf system which makes things easier (say Philips Hue which is Zigbee compatible) then you open yourself into the same problem of having a device talking to a server you don't own or trust.  If the latter tasks could be made easier for 'Joe Public' (I didn't even find it particularly easy and I like to think I know a thing or two about networking) then I think there would be better adoption of this tech over the Wi-Fi only option.  But, it would require companies to set up an IoT system that didn't give them access to your data though, so I can't see the incentive for them!
 
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Offline bdunham7

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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2023, 12:35:10 pm »
- Had to set up my own SSL certificate to secure my open connection (not doing so would be stupid)
Or just set up a VPN.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2023, 12:51:41 pm »
Today on "Why cloud based smart-homes are a dumb idea", episode #3489
There's no such thing as the "cloud".
Just someone else's computer.

I laughed the first time I heard of the Client-Server relationship being rebranded as "cloud computing".

Those of us of a certain age remember when "cloud computing" was the only practical and economic option.

Everybody heaved a sigh of relief when we were finally able to own and control our own data, and weren't held hostage by the Timesharing companies. History doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme.

Anybody that discusses Oracle + gonads in palms wiil be guilty of derailing the topic :)
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Offline Haenk

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2023, 02:37:42 pm »
There was a potentially fairly serious incident


really? someone says they thought they heard a racist remark

AFAIR Rossmann said, the driver used headphones. When *I* use headphones, I can hardly hear anything being said around me, less so the cr*ppy digital voice recording from an 0,5" speaker.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2023, 03:07:15 pm »
If you have to "smartify" your house then use a local system that has no internet connection.

Easy for a geek to say (and sometimes do), but for Joe Normal it's a high bar to cross. The smart clouds make it dead simple to set up and program, trivially so. Having to buy the right specific model you can reflash to use some half-baked local thing (and then dick around with router ports for remote access) is going to lead to manual switches and a cupboard of unused sockets.
 

Offline artag

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2023, 03:30:19 pm »
Easy for a geek to say (and sometimes do), but for Joe Normal it's a high bar to cross.

Then that's a product opportunity. Sell an 'alexa in a box' that does the whole thing, and doesn't  use the cloud. And don't expect it to be maintained remotely :).
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2023, 03:32:31 pm »
Easy for a geek to say (and sometimes do), but for Joe Normal it's a high bar to cross. The smart clouds make it dead simple to set up and program, trivially so. Having to buy the right specific model you can reflash to use some half-baked local thing (and then dick around with router ports for remote access) is going to lead to manual switches and a cupboard of unused sockets.

If people demanded cloudless smart devices, or at least ones that still work without internet or accounts, perhaps they would be produced.  I will understand, for example, if my Enphase solar system stops giving me nice web-based data and messages either because the internet is out or the company is shut down.  I wouldn't be happy if they shut me down over a tweet, but in any case the system itself would remain in operation and I would still have local access to the data.  Accepting a system where your toilet won't flush if some remote system operator disables your account is just stupid. 

It's not just technical failures or companies publicly shedding customers for their tweets that we have to worry about.  How much further do we have to go before your refrigerator demands to serve you an advertisement before it lets you have a beer?  Or your laser printer refuses to print a document it deems offensive?  I think we're 99% there already.
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2023, 03:42:37 pm »
Quote
If people demanded cloudless smart device

Why would they? The current products work fine and are super-easy to use. No-one sits there and thinks, "You know, what would be better is to make this remote access unavailable and have an extra machine to load up with stuff I don't know how to set up or maintain." At best they might look at Apple and buy their stuff.

Tales like the one here are just things that happen to other people. It would take serious outages of several competing systems to wake people up, and then there's the problem of knowing that alternatives exist.
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2023, 03:49:51 pm »
Quote
If people demanded cloudless smart device

Why would they? The current products work fine and are super-easy to use. No-one sits there and thinks, "You know, what would be better is to make this remote access unavailable and have an extra machine to load up with stuff I don't know how to set up or maintain." At best they might look at Apple and buy their stuff.

Tales like the one here are just things that happen to other people. It would take serious outages of several competing systems to wake people up, and then there's the problem of knowing that alternatives exist.

something like someone dying because they were locked out of their AC or heating, might change things

 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2023, 04:17:58 pm »
Quote
something like someone dying because they were locked out of their AC or heating, might change things

A one-off wouldn't. It'd be just "one of those things". You'd need it to happen on at least a semi-regular basis, and the major response would be "they could've just flipped the switch manually."
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2023, 04:19:54 pm »
something like someone dying because they were locked out of their AC or heating, might change things

I have a smart heating system too and it does have a wi-fi connection (the radiator valves are Zigbee but the internet connection is for remote control). The designers have clearly thought about the risk of a fault occurring. There is a button marked "heating" on the unit which if pressed will set all rooms to 21C and heat for 4 hours.  Good enough to figure out what's going on in the meantime.  I note this isn't something all systems have, though.
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2023, 05:37:00 pm »
There was a potentially fairly serious incident


really? someone says they thought they heard a racist remark

Try to think what the headline and story would be if they hadn't reacted. Staff member left traumatised after customer sayint racist abuse, company didnt care and left the staff member having to quit their job as nobody in corporate would listen to them or take action against the customer.

It could he quite serious if a company is seen a complicent in a racist situation. Bad PR and potential for a lawsuit.
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Offline wraper

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2023, 07:50:32 pm »
I have Homematic IP wireless system for underfloor heating. Although ecosystem has many more different smart home devices some which I may start using later and is compatible with some other manufacturers. It can be set up in 4 different ways. One is pairing room thermostats directly to underfloor valve controller or radiator thermostat but it's the least versatile and with no smart garbage whatsoever. Second way which I'm currently using is connecting all of the devices to a $50 ethernet or wifi access point which allows setting things through the app. App works through the cloud, however otherwise system is autonomous and without internet connection you still can set temperature on thermostats, light switches will still work, etc. App does not require any registration at all, you just scan a QR code on access point or enter code printed on it manually.  Third way is using CCU3 central control unit instead of access point which works locally and you depend on nobody. Everything happens through web UI instead of the app but it costs around $190 which is almost 4x more expensive than access point. Alexa and other voice control can be added too if you want to deal with that garbage.
Or 4th sort of unofficial way (interface HW is official, software isn't) is using Raspberry Pi or other device with a hat or dongle and running RaspberryMatic https://raspberrymatic.de/
The downside is that Homematic is almost entirely Germany oriented so good luck finding any decent info about it on anything but German.
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2023, 07:54:01 pm »
Quote
There is a button marked "heating" on the unit which if pressed will set all rooms to 21C and heat for 4 hours.

Useful feature. But... it's software. There's no reason that should work perfectly, especially with a borked system, whilst  other parts of the same product 'might' have issues.

Once upon a time I was monitoring some piece of comms kit and treating the signal LED as 100% honest, as if it were hard wired into the cable coming out the back. Took a significant effort to consciously realise the LED could fib - not only did I know it was connected only to a CPU IO pin, but I'd programmed the thing myself. Strikes me that the 'heating' button is similar - it fools you into thinking it cannot be wrong and will always do exactly what it's supposed to regardless of everything else going on.
 

Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2023, 07:57:38 pm »
Try to think what the headline and story would be if they hadn't reacted. Staff member left traumatised after customer sayint racist abuse, company didnt care and left the staff member having to quit their job as nobody in corporate would listen to them or take action against the customer.
It could he quite serious if a company is seen a complicent in a racist situation. Bad PR and potential for a lawsuit.

I don't think that's the issue here.
The problem is a case of the customer being treated as if he's guilty by default. A proper investigation should have been done before any action was taken against the customer. Doesn't matter whether you agree if the punishment fits the "crime" or not.
I think this is the argument against using Amazon home automation systems and cloud based items like it: You're at the mercy of a large corporation "doing the right thing" which is never a wise consumer choice.
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2023, 08:11:42 pm »
There was a potentially fairly serious incident


really? someone says they thought they heard a racist remark

Try to think what the headline and story would be if they hadn't reacted. Staff member left traumatised after customer sayint racist abuse, company didnt care and left the staff member having to quit their job as nobody in corporate would listen to them or take action against the customer.

It could he quite serious if a company is seen a complicent in a racist situation. Bad PR and potential for a lawsuit.
Dude, turn on your brain. First of all they have done this with no investigation whatsoever. Also as I said before, they can refuse delivery to the guy but shutting off his account entirely and including smart home because he supposedly said something to a delivery driver is a woke cancel culture-ish nonsense. Not to say corporations policing individuals is 1984-esque.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2023, 08:51:41 pm »
I don't think that's the issue here.
The problem is a case of the customer being treated as if he's guilty by default. A proper investigation should have been done before any action was taken against the customer. Doesn't matter whether you agree if the punishment fits the "crime" or not.
I think this is the argument against using Amazon home automation systems and cloud based items like it: You're at the mercy of a large corporation "doing the right thing" which is never a wise consumer choice.

Agree, although thats probably how its described in the TOS.
Google is no different: "We may suspend or stop providing our Services to you if you do not comply with our terms or policies or if we are investigating suspected misconduct."
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Offline tom66

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2023, 09:05:15 pm »
Quote
There is a button marked "heating" on the unit which if pressed will set all rooms to 21C and heat for 4 hours.

Useful feature. But... it's software. There's no reason that should work perfectly, especially with a borked system, whilst  other parts of the same product 'might' have issues.

Once upon a time I was monitoring some piece of comms kit and treating the signal LED as 100% honest, as if it were hard wired into the cable coming out the back. Took a significant effort to consciously realise the LED could fib - not only did I know it was connected only to a CPU IO pin, but I'd programmed the thing myself. Strikes me that the 'heating' button is similar - it fools you into thinking it cannot be wrong and will always do exactly what it's supposed to regardless of everything else going on.

I doubt you'd find any thermostat that isn't at least somewhat software controlled, except perhaps the most basic thermo-metallic contact unit.  But even then your boiler probably has a microcontroller in it...  The internet connection on the unit is the riskiest part, given it depends on external infrastructure that I can't control.  All that the 'heating' button needs to do is turn on the boiler (the relay clicks immediately when I press it, though I use OpenTherm for 'reasons') and send some Zigbee packets out to get the thermostats running.  It should be pretty reliable, at least as reliable as a gas boiler itself is.

In the very worst case, I still have the old thermostat wired in parallel as a frost stat set to 5C.  If it all goes to pot, I turn that on and then either remove the TRV's (100% heat) or set them manually via Zigbee commands.

There was a reason that when I was looking at smart heating I went for an independent system.  While it uses Zigbee like the rest of my smart home stuff, the TRVs talk to the Wiser hub, and the hub manages all temperature control.  My RasPi can send heating requests - I use it to do neat things like turn off the heating in my home office when away from home - but ultimately the white box next to the boiler does all the hard work of getting those rooms to the right temperature.  The Wi-Fi interface even works if the internet cloud goes down as the Pi accesses it via the local network.  I almost never use the cloud interface anyway. 

I have Homematic IP wireless system for underfloor heating. Although ecosystem has many more different smart home devices some which I may start using later and is compatible with some other manufacturers. It can be set up in 4 different ways. One is pairing room thermostats directly to underfloor valve controller or radiator thermostat but it's the least versatile and with no smart garbage whatsoever. Second way which I'm currently using is connecting all of the devices to a $50 ethernet or wifi access point which allows setting things through the app. App works through the cloud, however otherwise system is autonomous and without internet connection you still can set temperature on thermostats, light switches will still work, etc. App does not require any registration at all, you just scan a QR code on access point or enter code printed on it manually.  Third way is using CCU3 central control unit instead of access point which works locally and you depend on nobody. Everything happens through web UI instead of the app but it costs around $190 which is almost 4x more expensive than access point. Alexa and other voice control can be added too if you want to deal with that garbage.
Or 4th sort of unofficial way (interface HW is official, software isn't) is using Raspberry Pi or other device with a hat or dongle and running RaspberryMatic https://raspberrymatic.de/
The downside is that Homematic is almost entirely Germany oriented so good luck finding any decent info about it on anything but German.

Sounds similar enough to Wiser given you can just go to 192.168.x.x and once you know the "JSON secret key" (which is retrieved by pressing a button on the unit and within 30s going to the right page) then you can get local access.  It's almost as if they built it to be tweaked with by home automation nuts.  Thankfully someone has done the hard work already and built an integration into Home Assistant, and occasionally the engineering manager for the company posts on the HA forum with bug fixes and suggestions, so it's informally supported, which is nice to see.  That integration was a major reason for me purchasing it: other products didn't have it, or only had it via a cloud 'app', eww.

I found that the kitchen had a hydronic radiator built in (I first thought it was an electric kick fan but noticed the '80 watts' label on it).  So I set it up so it runs off a Zigbee smart plug, and when the boiler flow temperature exceeds a certain temperature and the kitchen temperature sensor is below another threshold, the hydronic radiator turns on, around normal dinner/cooking time.  It's a little crude, but it keeps the kitchen warm in winter without wasting the heat for the rest of the day.

Hot day today, so the heating is all off, and yes I think I want air con ... I just need to figure out how to automate that next.  Most mini splits seem to be wi-fi controlled, annoyingly, so I will probably figure out a way to do it via the infrared control.
 

Offline John B

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2023, 09:32:53 pm »
The actual customer responded in the comments on Louis' video. Have a read to get a better idea of his mindset.

I'm surprised anyone's giving amazon the benefit of the doubt here. The allegations of "racism" are largely moot, the issue being that amazon can arbitrarily shut down the functionality of your devices. It can be any reason they want, or no reason at all.
 
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Offline langwadt

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Re: Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2023, 09:59:23 pm »
The actual customer responded in the comments on Louis' video. Have a read to get a better idea of his mindset.

I'm surprised anyone's giving amazon the benefit of the doubt here. The allegations of "racism" are largely moot, the issue being that amazon can arbitrarily shut down the functionality of your devices. It can be any reason they want, or no reason at all.

yeh, it doesn't matter why they did it, it only matters that they did it and how they did it
 


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